Patreon is the worst enemy of all adult game players

[tanstaafl]

on this topic:

Once you start giving them money, that is your choice. You are placing your personal view on who they are based upon your actions. You transform them in your mind from hobbyist to professional. That's a you thing.

You're the one makng a choice to tip, or subscribe, to a hobbyist or part-timer. You can choose not to. But when you do, you take on the risk of being disappointed. But that, again, is your choice.

Caveat emptor.

True!

 

[DuniX]

But the main thrust of my post you completely and utterly ignored. Lumping the vast majority of developers on here under the title of "indie dev" is a bit of a stretch.

When you compare actual Indie Devs that release games on Steam they certainly don't deserve calling themselves "Indie Devs".

You're the one makng a choice to tip, or subscribe, to a hobbyist or part-timer. You can choose not to. But when you do, you take on the risk of being disappointed. But that, again, is your choice.

Yes but if you don't treat your customers with respect, don't be surprised when you don't get respect in return.
Even to the point that they can turn against you.

 

[tanstaafl]

On a completely unrelated note. If there is ever a paradigm shift and the credit card companies loosen up a bit on their puritanical ways about porn in general (I'm not talking about incest/rape/stuff like that). We may see a couple actual, real dev shops in western cultures focused on adult games. And once THAT happens the hobbyists will have to step up their game in a big, big way. But, for now, they're safe.

 

[morphnet]

Chapter based releases in writing and movies has never been a thing anywhere but fan fiction sites...because writing in books and movies come out as completed books and movies.

I'm afraid this is incorrect and let me add that I am only familiar with fantasy so those are the examples I'll stick to.

While not exactly "chapter releases, MANY series have been released as separate books and none are complete. You need to read the entire series for the full story. From tolken to david eddings to terry brooks, each has released a first book starting the story and then released others each continueing the story until the last book concludes the story.

Graphic novels use the same idea covering one story over many volumes. Anime uses ARCS, tv series use multiple episodes to complete a chapter etc.

Games have / still do used expansion and dlc's to conclude stories too.

All different media but all using the same type of "release the story in parts" practice.

 

[Count Morado]

When you compare actual Indie Devs that release games on Steam they certainly don't deserve calling themselves "Indie Devs".


Yes but if you don't treat your customers with respect, don't be surprised when you don't get respect in return.
Even to the point that they can turn against you.

are there bad developers? Sure, and they should be held accountable. But they are a very minute percentage.

The majority of complaints from players are those from players who have no clue about development and have a very clouded view on expectations. They simply don't understand jack, but blame the developer for something they think should be happening. NOW.

Players are the biggest problem. Not Patreon and not developers.

 

[tanstaafl]

I'm afraid this is incorrect and let me add that I am only familiar with fantasy so those are the examples I'll stick to.

While not exactly "chapter releases, MANY series have been released as separate books and none are complete. You need to read the entire series for the full story. From tolken to david eddings to terry brooks, each has released a first book starting the story and then released others each continueing the story until the last book concludes the story.

Graphic novels use the same idea covering one story over many volumes. Anime uses ARCS, tv series use multiple episodes to complete a chapter etc.

Games have / still do used expansion and dlc's to conclude stories too.

All different media but all using the same type of "release the story in parts" practice.

Yeah, I updated my stance on that after some discussion and research on my own. Starship Troopers was initially released as a serial in a magazine.

 

[morphnet]

Completed products that had additions later are not in the same category as a chapter 1 v0.1 porn game release, and you know it.

Indie developers are not in the same category as AAA, AA, A studios. That doesn't stop people from placing the same expectations on the indie dev as they do the AAA, AA, A studios.

A part time game dev, a hobby game dev but they must release full games, with no exposure, advertising, reputation AND still afford to keep up with equipment, bills, asset purchases etc.

Customers can only handle so much bullshit until they get tired of it all, see what happened to Kickstarter Indie Game projects.

Strange how it's the NON - CUSTOMERS that are crying the most, YOU even admitted you don't support dev's, yet here you are whining. YOU don't speak for customers, just like how they are able to decide what to do with their OWN money, they are able to decide if they want to stop support or to complain BUT YOU don't speak for them....

Indie Devs that starve themselves with releasing new Steam Games are still professionals even if they have no budget and zero success because they take entierly seriously their release of the their game.
Yet "Western Adult Developers" with unimaginable amount of privilege compared to Indie Devs can't take themselves seriously.

Delusional rumbling, trying to use a blanket term ignoring facts and making up fantastical conclusions.

Meanwhile back in reality on earth....

 

[morphnet]

Yeah, I updated my stance on that after some discussion and research on my own. Starship Troopers was initially released as a serial in a magazine.

My bad sorry, having trouble scrolling and keeping up with all replies while replying.

Sorry again

 

[tanstaafl]

My bad sorry, having trouble scrolling and keeping up with all replies while replying.

Sorry again

No worries, it was moving fast for a bit there, lol.

 

[DuniX]

While not exactly "chapter releases, MANY series have been released as separate books and none are complete. You need to read the entire series for the full story. From tolken to david eddings to terry brooks, each has released a first book starting the story and then released others each continueing the story until the last book concludes the story.

Graphic novels use the same idea covering one story over many volumes. Anime uses ARCS, tv series use multiple episodes to complete a chapter etc.

Volumes and books still have climax and conclusions within that volumes or books.
They don't just have chapters that don't go anywhere and resolve anything.

are there bad developers? Sure, and they should be held accountable. But they are a very minute percentage.

The majority of complaints from players are those from players who have no clue about development and have a very clouded view on expectations. They simply don't understand jack, but blame the developer for something they think should be happening. NOW.

It's not about being "Bad" or "Good" developers, it's about Amateurs vs Professionals.

Professionals have a proper plan and know the overall progress and health of their project.
If there are any problems with their project They Fix Those Fucking Problems.

They don't just do whatever and hope for the best.

 

[morphnet]

If devs released "Chapters" the size and quality of "Fellowship of the Ring" this thread wouldn't exist.

Bad example for you. Tolkien didn't just write the stories, he created the worlds (geography and all) first, then the races, then the mythology, then the LANGUAGES, then, and only then, did he start writing the stories. So no, what Tolkien did would very much NOT be chapter based releases.

Just need to point out for these two replies though,

You are right, this thread wouldn't exist, it would be a MUCH worse thread and he did do all those things BUT

it took him 17 years to write lord of the rings so....

 

[morphnet]

No worries, it was moving fast for a bit there, lol.

Tell me about it, i'm retro replying now and still have that "there are more replies" message showing

 

[tanstaafl]

Just need to point out for these two replies though,

You are right, this thread wouldn't exist, it would be a MUCH worse thread and he did do all those things BUT

it took him 17 years to write lord of the rings so....

As an old man with infinite patience (heh heh) I'm fine with waiting a bit.

 

[morphnet]

Volumes and books still have climax and conclusions within that volumes or books.
They don't just have chapters that don't go anywhere and resolve anything.

Sure.... no book / volume EVER ended on a cliff hanger

They don't just have chapters that don't go anywhere and resolve anything.

Seriously stop with the pop up books and go read. Although that might be asking too much so go get some audio books....
As I said I know fantasy so will ONLY talk about what I know and I know MANY of the 1-3 fantasy books in a series end without resolving ANYTHING, some end on a cliff hanger and some trail off to be picked up in the next book /volume.

What you are saying is flat out UNTRUE!

As an old man with infinite patience (heh heh) I'm fine with waiting a bit.

It's replies like this that deserve more than one reaction!

 

[DuniX]

Sure.... no book / volume EVER ended on a cliff hanger

A cliff hanger doesn't mean plot threads weren't resolved in the volume or that there were no climaxes in them.
If every book was cliff hangers nobody would buy any books.

 

[Count Morado]

It's not about being "Bad" or "Good" developers, it's about Amateurs vs Professionals.

Professionals have a proper plan and know the overall progress and health of their project....
They don't just do whatever and hope for the best.

You would be surprised. It takes years of experience to become a "professional" to the level you are expecting.

A lot of first time "entrepreneurs" are flying by the seats of their pants and finding out what works and what doesn't. Hell, a lot of any small business first couple years is throwing shit against the wall and seeing what sticks.

Again, there are a lot of small businesses that don't make it out of their first year for a reason. Of the ones that register and are trackable, about 20% fail in first year, and 50% in first five. This includes people starting up businesses who are first timers as well as serial entrepreneurs and established business leaders.

That doesn't count the Aunts and Uncles with their small side gigs and hobbyist activities such as "professional photographer" and "website designer"... or "adult game 'Indie' developer."

You are applying your definition on something that is not actually the case in most instances.

A cliff hanger doesn't mean plot threads weren't resolved in the volume or that there were no climaxes in them.
If every book was cliff hangers nobody would buy any books.

He didn't say every book.

There are books with unresolved plots and there are books with resolution.
The Harry Potter series resolved short term tension and plot, but left long term tension and conflict open for many books in the series.

Heck, then there are the books of an author all set in the same universe... Such as Stephen King's.

Then there are the Robot, Empire, Foundation novels of Asimov.

 

[morphnet]

A cliff hanger doesn't mean plot threads weren't resolved in the volume or that there were no climaxes in them.

What are you on about? So you're moving from climax AND conclusion to minor plot points? I'm just going to leave this here...

You must be registered to see the links

If every book was cliff hangers nobody would buy any books.

Who said ANYTHING about EVERY book? I even clearly said

As I said I know fantasy so will ONLY talk about what I know and I know MANY of the 1-3 fantasy books in a series end without resolving ANYTHING, some end on a cliff hanger and some trail off to be picked up in the next book /volume.

This is your habit, don't read, twist words, make shit up and then post without thinking....

 

[DuniX]

You would be surprised. It takes years of experience to become a "professional" to the level you are expecting.

If they don't take themselves seriously first, that is not going to fucking happen.

It's a question of mentality, you can learn and develop skills but if you just do whatever, don't consider anything that going on and what problems might impede the project then you will never be more than a amateur and those projects are unlikely to go anywhere.

 

[Count Morado]

If they don't take themselves seriously first, that is not going to fucking happen.

It's a question of mentality, you can learn and develop skills but if you just do whatever, don't consider anything that going on and what problems might impede the project then you will never be more than a amateur and those projects are unlikely to go anywhere.

again, in your opinion. Mentality only goes so far. There is so much more involved. And a lot of it is out of the person's control. You do what you gotta do, sometimes dumping a project is something you gotta do. Sometimes limiting your work on it while focusing time elsewhere is what you gotta do.

Again, it's YOUR expectations that are setting YOUR desired results. This is a YOU problem. A player problem. A person who, I assume based upon your responses, has never started or grown a business on their own. Has never taken courses on business management or entrepreneurship. These are your personal views, but they don't reflect reality.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

The Harry Potter series resolved short term tension and plot, but left long term tension and conflict open for many books in the series.

Harry Potter is a doubly interesting example, considering the part 1/part 2 shenanigans of the last movie.