Patreon is the worst enemy of all adult game players

[Insomnimaniac Games]

For clarity, I've read none of books and seen none of the movies.

Just an interesting thing to bring up when talking about media ending in cliffhangers. TL;DR, the first part of the movie very much ends in a cliffhanger.

 

[morphnet]

It's a question of mentality, you can learn and develop skills but if you just do whatever, don't consider anything that going on and what problems might impede the project then you will never be more than a amateur and those projects are unlikely to go anywhere.

You REALLY have no idea how the real world works!

People who go for training, they get taught what works and what to avoid, they get taught how to work efficiently and how to get the most out of their field.

Amateurs, hobbyist, part-timers have to discover these things through trial and error. They can't CONSIDER what they don't know.

Trained professionals have been taught what could impede projects, amateurs, hobbyist, part-timers have to find that out the hard way.

You not knowing this or understanding this clearly shows you have NO grounds to justify your "opinion"

 

[DuniX]

What are you on about? So you're moving from climax AND conclusion to minor plot points? I'm just going to leave this here...

There can be multiple plot threads running in parallel within a series, there can be multiple setups that will eventually pay off later.
A cliff hanger is linked to one plot thread, that has nothing to do with the resolution of a previous plot thread.

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Maybe you should follow your own advice?

Who said ANYTHING about EVERY book? I even clearly said

Ultimately the reason people read is because doing that Satisfies them in some way.
If they release chapters or volumes or books or episodes or however you want to break things down and they don't manage to Achieve that Satisfaction it is a moot point.
That is the state of most AVNs we are talking about, they can call it chapters or updates or whatever.

 

[DuniX]

And a lot of it is out of the person's control. You do what you gotta do, sometimes dumping a project is something you gotta do. Sometimes limiting your work on it while focusing time elsewhere is what you gotta do.

Yes there are actually hard choices that you have to make to get the project on track.

Again, it's YOUR expectations that are setting YOUR desired results. This is a YOU problem. A player problem. A person who, I assume based upon your responses, has never started or grown a business on their own. Has never taken courses on business management or entrepreneurship. These are your personal views, but they don't reflect reality.

Do you even know what my expectations and solutions are? Tell me.
They aren't a mystery if you have been paying attention.

 

[DuniX]

Amateurs, hobbyist, part-timers have to discover these things through trial and error. They can't CONSIDER what they don't know.

You do realize that this entire industry was developed as a Parasite to Japanese Visual Novels and Eroge industry?
It seems people forgot what a good Visual Novel and Dating Sim even looks like.

 

[morphnet]

There can be multiple plot threads running in parallel within a series, there can be multiple setups that will eventually pay off later.
A cliff hanger is linked to one plot thread, that has nothing to do with the resolution of a previous plot thread.

No one is talking about plot 1 plot 5 plot 100, you can try and twist things and change direction all you want. The main story, the VERY REASON for there to be more than one book. That is what was brought up.

Maybe you should follow your own advice?

Considering anyone with two braincells to rub together can see you are just talking shit, making stuff up and have absolutely NO idea how the real world works I think you are the only one here who needs that advice.

If they release chapters or volumes or books or episodes or however you want to break things down and they don't manage to Achieve that Satisfaction it is a moot point.

But they do manage to, which is why trilogies and series and graphic novels and and and all exist, again showing you have no idea how the real world works.

That is the of most AVNs we are talking about, they can call it chapters or updates or whatever.

And they too manage to, which is why they still have patreons, why games like a wife and mother still have people in 2 different dedicated threads discussing the game and it's story years on.

It's as was pointed out before only a handful of whiny people, most of who don't even sub or support dev's complaining because they feel those that do support are stopping them from get what they want quicker.

Twist and turn, change direction all you want it's not going to help. The ONLY help for you is if you stop talking shit and go educate yourself on the topics you want to take part in.

 

[morphnet]

You do realize that this entire industry was developed as a Parasite to Japanese Visual Novels and Eroge industry?
It seems people forgot what a good Visual Novel and Dating Sim even looks like.

If you are wondering why NO ONE is taking you seriously, it's because of uneducated ideas like that.
Even I am feeling embarrassed for you right now....

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

People who go for training, they get taught what works and what to avoid, they get taught how to work efficiently and how to get the most out of their field.

Amateurs, hobbyist, part-timers have to discover these things through trial and error. They can't CONSIDER what they don't know.

Trained professionals have been taught what could impede projects, amateurs, hobbyist, part-timers have to find that out the hard way.

Please place GRRM on amateur--professional axis

I get what you're saying, I even agree, but let's not paint overly rosy picture of the state of the professional creative environments.

 

[morphnet]

Please place GRRM on amateur--professional axis

I get what you're saying, I even agree, but let's not paint overly rosy picture of the state of the professional creative environments.

Definately not! Some of the professional creative environments are the most unprofessional around. It's more to the expectation and some people thinking that someone with no knowledge of field is supposed / expected to know the pitfalls of that field.

 

[DuniX]

No one is talking about plot 1 plot 5 plot 100, you can try and twist things and change direction all you want. The main story, the VERY REASON for there to be more than one book. That is what was brought up.

There are multiple things that can happen in the "main story".

But they do manage to, which is why trilogies and series and graphic novels and and and all exist, again showing you have no idea how the real world works.

I am talking about the AVNs, the Topic of this fucking Thread.

And they too manage to, which is why they still have patreons, why games like a wife and mother still have people in 2 different dedicated threads discussing the game and it's story years on.

If they are Satisfied that's fine.

I don't read them since they abysmal to me and that is what I judge them as.

If you are wondering why NO ONE is taking you seriously, it's because of uneducated ideas like that.
Even I am feeling embarrassed for you right now....

From what kind of communities do you think this cottage industry spawned from?
In fact why do you think there are Japanese Games on this site?

 

[morphnet]

There are multiple things that can happen in the "main story".

You're like a flag in a gale

I am talking about the AVNs, the Topic of this fucking Thread.

I keep asking myself "is he just acting stupid or is he really that stupid" then you go and remove all doubt



So "the Topic of the fucking thread" is AVN's huh?

ALL you had to do was click on the first page, double check before hitting post reply and you couldn't even handle that...

If they are Satisfied that's fine.

I don't read them since they abysmal to me and that is what I judge them as.

I'm guessing they will take that as a compliment coming from you....

From what kind of communities do you think this cottage industry spawned from?

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In fact why do you think there are Japanese Games on this site?

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

Should have come to the thread an hour later than I did to proudly post this gif.

Oh wait, I just did.

 

[DuniX]

So "the Topic of the fucking thread" is AVN's huh?

What projects do you think we are talking about?
You can posture all you want but people can make their own judgements on who they think is in the right.

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

on this topic:

Once you start giving them money, that is your choice. You are placing your personal view on who they are based upon your actions. You transform them in your mind from hobbyist to professional. That's a you thing.

You're the one makng a choice to tip, or subscribe, to a hobbyist or part-timer. You can choose not to. But when you do, you take on the risk of being disappointed. But that, again, is your choice.

No. By definition someone's no longer a hobbyist if they're accepting payment for their services. It's the exact opposite of 'amateur'.

The fact this concept is contentious exemplifies how pervasive the patreon milkery culture is. (now im thinking about going back and changing my take on if patreon is to be blamed )

 

[anne O'nymous]

There are plenty of RPGs and visual novels with much beloved story and characters. This Industry would not have been born if that was not the case.

Baby, for around 15 years "this industry" was filled and led by games that were nothing more that "choose the 2 minute video that you'll fap to". Then, it's "choose the 5 seconds loop showing how you fuck her", and other pornholio "sitcom" flash "games" that let it stay afloat.

How many of those Payoffs in Western projects are actually effective and bring Satisfaction to the readers in a reasonable time frame?

Breaking news: Reading an interesting story is satisfying too. At least for anyone with at least an average IQ.

 

[Dryme]

Reading an interesting story is satisfying too. At least for anyone with at least an average IQ.

You're insulting people with low intelligence now, how can I report about you?

 

[orellion]

No. By definition someone's no longer a hobbyist if they're accepting payment for their services. It's the exact opposite of 'amateur'.

The fact this concept is contentious exemplifies how pervasive the patreon milkery culture is. (now im thinking about going back and changing my take on if patreon is to be blamed )

Correct, and Patreon's proceeds brought in will be considered a small business for tax purposes (at least where I live).

 

[TheMagicalGurl]

Why can't we just buy finished products instead of monthly subscription model?
This is really bad.

We always have unfinished trashes and that's all.

I hate me too.

 

[Count Morado]

No. By definition someone's no longer a hobbyist if they're accepting payment for their services. It's the exact opposite of 'amateur'.

The fact this concept is contentious exemplifies how pervasive the patreon milkery culture is. (now im thinking about going back and changing my take on if patreon is to be blamed )

nowhere did I use the word amateur

You should revisit the definition of professional:

I already shared, but will again...
The average adult game developer on Patreon that has paid subscribers brings in less than $100 USD per month in subscriptions (that's after patreon's cut but before credit card transaction fees and where applicable VAT and/or taxes). Even after 4 years on Patreon.
Less than 20% earn $1000 USD or more per month.

So, of the 9000 developers on Patreon, 7000 have paid subscribers or are in their first year, about 1200 earn more than $1000 per month. For some countries, that may be high enough for "main occupation" earnings... But for USA, Western Europe, Australia, Canada, Japan, etc.... That's not even minimum wage, let alone living wage, for a full-time main occupation. Less than 1% earn $100,000 or more (after patreon cut, but before transaction fees, VAT, taxes, expenses).

The vast majority are still hobbyists, side gig, and part time enthusiasts. The fact that they are soliciting subscriptions does not make them professionals - there is more to it than that. Really there is more to it than getting paid for it full time, but hey, we're going on minimum definitions here.

Correct, and Patreon's proceeds brought in will be considered a small business for tax purposes (at least where I live).

Self employment and small business are two different things. And they are taxed differently, at least in most of the world.

Self employed: just the one person
Small business: owner with employees

You know, the more I interact with people here, the more I wonder how many people here have experience in the real world.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Chapter based releases in writing and movies has never been a thing anywhere but fan fiction sites...

Excuse-me?

Perhaps have you heard about that small writer, Alexandre Dumas (son). He wrote books that some knows, like "The Three Musketeers" by example. And it happen that most of them were first published as chapter in the press. And he's far to be the only one, while it's far to be limited to those old times.
Jules Verne too had some books published that way before they were released as full books. H. P. Lovecraft had more than one story, including full books, firstly published in Weird Tales, magazine that also published many of Robert E. Howard's "Conan" stories.
During the Sci-Fi Golden Age, John W. Campbell, editor of Astounding Science-Fiction, discovered and encouraged most of the best known writers from that time, like Arthur C. Clarke, Isaac Asimov or Robert A. Heinlein by example. All had some of their first books released in chapter in his magazine. And it was far to be the only magazine dedicated to Science-Fiction, or to the publication of books in chapter for writers in search for a first publisher.
I mean, Pulp magazines whole business model is nothing more than this, publishing stories in parts, chapters for the longest ones, to ensure that the public will want to buy the next issue.

And this is without talking about how many manga are published that way in Japan.