Patreon is the worst enemy of all adult game players

[tanstaafl]

As I said in my previous post, I'm not going to judge if the current way to do things is good or not, but, as I did say, it's annoying as hell sometimes.

And chapter based releases have never been rare. In writing, in movies, on radio, tv, or even games. They were just called different things.

Don't lie to yourself and to us. Chapter based releases have always been rare and limited to very specific categories.We're talking about computer programs and games here.

As for the rest...

Chapter based releases in writing and movies has never been a thing anywhere but fan fiction sites...because writing in books and movies come out as completed books and movies. Sometimes these books and movies have sequels.

TV has episodic content that is closest to how we get content in our porn games these days, especially in soap operas which are constantly written and filmed just a few episodes ahead. But they are on a schedule...not variable times between.

I think an even closer comparison would be the original episodic nature of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy radio broadcasts. No schedule, no real script even. Just random drops.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

Chapter based releases have always been rare and limited to very specific categories.

Random thought, would the OG Lord of the Rings trilogy count as chapter-based? (Just a random thought, not looking for arguments or anything)

 

[Count Morado]

As I said in my previous post, I'm not going to judge if the current way to do things is good or not, but, as I did say, it's annoying as hell sometimes.



Don't lie to yourself and to us. Chapter based releases have always been rare and limited to very specific categories.We're talking about computer programs and games here.

As for the rest...

Chapter based releases in writing and movies has never been a thing anywhere but fan fiction sites...because writing in books and movies come out as completed books and movies. Sometimes these books and movies have sequels.

TV has episodic content that is closest to how we get content in our porn games these days, especially in soap operas which are constantly written and filmed just a few episodes ahead. But they are on a schedule...not variable times between.

I think the closest comparison I can come up with as to how quite a few of the games we see are done would be the original episodic nature of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy radio broadcasts. No schedule, no real script even. Just random drops.

Bullshit

Movie serials such as Buck Rogers, etc
Radio was the home of serials, with The Shadow, Little Orphan Annie, and many many more.
Dickens wrote chapters which were published as monthlies. Over the decades and many many authors - These spanned the genres from young adult to sci fi to mysteries to romance and more. There are still monthlies to this day.
TV show episodes are nothing more than chapters for a series.
Video games which have sequels are nothing more than additional chapters. Also, games like "The Walking Dead" (2012) with chapter releases didn't come out of nowhere

Just because you want to encapsulate them in their own little labels doesn't make them any less chapters.

 

[DuniX]

Except they ARE NOT professionals, they are hobbiests and indie developers, many of them, making the projects in their spare time while working a full time job.

But sure why let FACTS get in the way of your delusions

Well yes the entire industry can summed up as amateur wannabes because that is what level they consider themselves as.
And use that as an excuse to milk their pay piggies.
But just like customers are not entitled to developer professionalism, developers are not entitled to the continued existence of this wretched industry.
Customers can only handle so much bullshit until they get tired of it all, see what happened to Kickstarter Indie Game projects.

The fact is professionalism has nothing to do with budget, skill or time, it is a state of mind that values both their work and their customers.
Indie Devs that starve themselves with releasing new Steam Games are still professionals even if they have no budget and zero success because they take entierly seriously their release of the their game.
Yet "Western Adult Developers" with unimaginable amount of privilege compared to Indie Devs can't take themselves seriously.

 

[tanstaafl]

Bullshit

Movie serials such as Buck Rogers, etc
Radio was the home of serials, with The Shadow, Little Orphan Annie, and many many more.
Dickens wrote chapters which were published as monthlies. These spanned the genres from young adult to sci fi to mysteries to romance and more. There are still monthlies to this day.
TV show episodes are nothing more than chapters for a series.
Video games which have sequels are nothing more than additional chapters. Also, games like "The Walking Dead" (2012) with chapter releases didn't come out of nowhere

Just because you want to encapsulate them in their own little labels doesn't make them any less chapters.

Reader's digest did the same things, I'm well aware. But we aren't talking about serials, we're talking about software. Full on video games. But then, these games are VNs and can be considered similar to the serials, which is why I have stated TWICE now that I won't say if the new drip feeding is good or bad, just that it is annoying.

And I literally said TV did episodes in my last post..AND brought up radio serials (Hitchhiker's guide). Are you cherry picking things to argue with and pretending I didn't mention them myself for a reason?

 

[tanstaafl]

Random thought, would the OG Lord of the Rings trilogy count as chapter-based? (Just a random thought, not looking for arguments or anything)

If devs released "Chapters" the size and quality of "Fellowship of the Ring" this thread wouldn't exist.

 

[tanstaafl]

I will say this, after more research I'm finding a lot of fodder for both sides of this argument. The biggest on the "for" side of the current state of how games are published piecemeal would be instances like this:

"Starship Troopers" (The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction, 1959)

• Serialized before its novel release.

I think the real issue may not be the slow feed of content, but the general inconsistency of it all. The usual statement of "But these are hobbyists trying to make a buck" doesn't float, because once I start giving a person money, I don't give two shits if they're a hobbyist. They charge money, they deliver the goods or they become targets...not that they care as long as other people give them money, lol.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

If devs released "Chapters" the size and quality of "Fellowship of the Ring" this thread wouldn't exist.

Funnily enough a full-scale hollywood production with hundreds of staff and hundreds of millions behind it produces a better quality product than some dude making renders in his spare time. Who knew.

(Also, you didn't answer my actual question, which was JUST if LOR would be considered a chapter-based release.)

 

[Count Morado]

Reader's digest did the same things, I'm well aware. But we aren't talking about serials, we're talking about software. Full on video games. But then, these games are VNs and can be considered similar to the serials, which is why I have stated TWICE now that I won't say if the new drip feeding is good or bad, just that it is annoying.

And I literally said TV did episodes in my last post..AND brought up radio serials (Hitchhiker's guide). Are you cherry picking things to argue with and pretending I didn't mention them myself for a reason?

no.
I am not.

Also, you are the one who honed in on one small percentage of my post, conveniently skipping what the average "indie dev" is. Also, for a person not judging if good or bad, your being quite vocal about your annoyance... Which does taint your claim.

I mentioned video games and offered an example.

But the main thrust of my post you completely and utterly ignored. Lumping the vast majority of developers on here under the title of "indie dev" is a bit of a stretch. Sure, they are independent and they are developing, but they aren't necessarily "indie devs." Again, that Aunt who bought a digital camera in 2010 and printed off business cards wasn't really a "professional photographer" even though she took her nephew's senior photos and did headshots for the local community theatre actors.

The secondary theme of my post was about how Patreon had made it possible for more western content to be created, and why.

It was only the last 24 of 441 words of my post you decided to quibble with. Episodic, or chapter releases of nearly any entertainment stream has history. Including video games as far back as the 1980s, including underground games. One I remember from my high school games was Eamon.

It seems we are simply going to disagree, but not because of your claim that I am cherry picking.

Enjoy your day

 

[tanstaafl]

no.
I am not.

Also, you are the one who honed in on one small percentage of my post, conveniently skipping what the average "indie dev" is. Also, for a person not judging if good or bad, your being quite vocal about your annoyance... Which does taint your claim.

I mentioned video games and offered an example.

But the main thrust of my post you completely and utterly ignored. Limping the vast majority of developers on here under the title of "indie dev" is a bit of a stretch. Sure, they are independent and they are developing, but they aren't necessarily "indie devs." Again, that Aunt who bought a digital camera in 2010 and printed off business cards wasn't really a "professional photographer" even though she took her nephew's senior photos and did headshots for the local community theatre actors.

The secondary theme of my post was about how Patreon had made it possible for more western content to be created, and why.

It was only the last 24 of 441 words of my post you decided to quibble with. Episodic, or chapter releases of nearly any entertainment stream has history. Including video games as far back as the 1980s, including underground games. One I remember from my high school games was Eamon.

It seems we are simply going to disagree, but not because of your claim that I am cherry picking.

Enjoy your day

Look up, apparently I anticipated your response before you made it.

 

[tanstaafl]

(Also, you didn't answer my actual question, which was JUST if LOR would be considered a chapter-based release.)

Bad example for you. Tolkien didn't just write the stories, he created the worlds (geography and all) first, then the races, then the mythology, then the LANGUAGES, then, and only then, did he start writing the stories. So no, what Tolkien did would very much NOT be chapter based releases.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

Bad example for you. Tolkien didn't just write the stories, he created the worlds (geography and all) first, then the races, then the mythology, then the LANGUAGES, then, and only then, did he start writing the stories. So no, what Tolkien did would very much NOT be chapter based releases.

I wasn't giving an example. That's why I said random thought. I was curious because I could have went either way on whether it was "chapter-based"

 

[tanstaafl]

It was only the last 24 of 441 words of my post you decided to quibble with. Episodic, or chapter releases of nearly any entertainment stream has history. Including video games as far back as the 1980s, including underground games. One I remember from my high school games was Eamon.

I mean, it was the only part that I had issue with, why would I ague with the rest if I didn't disagree with it?

 

[morphnet]

Patreon didn't create the issue, it exacerbated an issue that was created by kickstarter.

Actually two points here,

One, Patreon's service was created with SWF creators in mind, NSFW creators joined there because it has built a reputation for good service. It's should be noted too that most of the NSFW creators who use patreon do not have this problem, just because a handful of creators misuse the system does not make it a bad system. The majority of creators both SFW and NSFW use it correctly and their patreons are happy.

Two, kickstarter didn't actually create the issue either. Alpha funding or early access funding was around long before 2013. Minecraft used it in 2009, Desura set up a program in 2011 and there were also many indie devs using buy me coffee etc. inbetween as well as asset creators and mod / script creators.

As a side note: these days even AAA studios are using early access more but also add predatory business models in many cases too.

Prior to 2000 it was almost entirely text based games that would have multiple parts. Zork for instance. From 2000 to 2010ish it was basically only adventure style games that would release additions and content in an almost chapter based format.

You must be registered to see the links

Although to be 100% fair, DLC's fit the chapter based format better than expansions but expansions still count and they are a continuation / addition to the existing story in the game.

It wasn't until kickstarter games started hitting that we began to see the drip feed of content...the practice of devs scrounging for money, using the money, then scrounging for more to provide more.

You must be registered to see the links

This is also around the time that "games as a service" started being a thing. Companies started releasing incomplete products and fixing them as people paid and paid and paid.

Not entirely true, "games as a service" started with mmo's like runescape and world of warcraft as early as 2001.

Then our lord and savior Patreon comes along and drip feeds money to indie devs so that indie devs can drip feed content to us.

I think it is only fair to separate developers / creators working on games / content in their spare time, with full time jobs / studying / making the game as a hobby and who have been open and up front about it, with developers / creators who are misusing the system.

 

[Count Morado]

because once I start giving a person money, I don't give two shits if they're a hobbyist. They charge money, they deliver the goods or they become targets...not that they care as long as other people give them money, lol.

on this topic:

Once you start giving them money, that is your choice. You are placing your personal view on who they are based upon your actions. You transform them in your mind from hobbyist to professional. That's a you thing.

You're the one makng a choice to tip, or subscribe, to a hobbyist or part-timer. You can choose not to. But when you do, you take on the risk of being disappointed. But that, again, is your choice.

Caveat emptor.

 

[tanstaafl]

I wasn't giving an example. That's why I said random thought. I was curious because I could have went either way on whether it was "chapter-based"

Tolkien was...different. He didn't just write stories, he created entire worlds in his own notes and research, fleshed them out, then wrote stories and what we saw was a very, very small percentage of what existed. It was astonishing really. Only the Silmarillion really gives a clue into how much work he did.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

Tolkien was...different. He didn't just write stories, he created entire worlds in his own notes and research, fleshed them out, then wrote stories and what we saw was a very, very small percentage of what existed. It was astonishing really. Only the Silmarillion really gives a clue into how much work he did.

Damn it... now I gotta watch the trilogy again.

 

[tanstaafl]

You must be registered to see the links

You must be registered to see the links

Completed products that had additions later are not in the same category as a chapter 1 v0.1 porn game release, and you know it.

 

[tanstaafl]

Damn it... now I gotta watch the trilogy again.

Right? It's why I go back to them a lot too. No Rings of Power though...bleh.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

Right? It's why I go back to them a lot too. No Rings of Power though...bleh.

Gives me something for the second monitor while I'm working at least.