Patreon is the worst enemy of all adult game players

Insomnimaniac Games

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Please understand that this is not to insult, berate, or antagonize in anyway. This is just a perspective from "the other side".

The reason the only "completed on release" games that come out are japanese is because, in japan, they have companies and publishers backing them, and the game's creators have a salary like any other job. Most places in the world don't have that sort of backing. As a matter of fact, outside Japan there's really only Fakku and those guys are POS's (They're also exclusively publishers and would be no help during development). In addition to that, most of these games are made by one person in the spare time that they have, with 99% of us having such abysmal return on investment that it's a wonder there are as many devs as there are. These games take thousands of hours to make. Thousands of hours that, without something like patreon, may end up being a complete flop. Thousands of hours that led to nothing. Companies can somewhat handle that and it's pretty expected to happen at least once. But an individual? They can't come back from that. Monetarily or mentally.

Now, are there devs who take advantage of peoples kindness? Absolutely. I would never deny that. But, is it worth it to harm the many to spite the few? I don't believe so.
 

DuniX

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The reason the only "completed on release" games that come out are japanese is because, in japan, they have companies and publishers backing them, and the game's creators have a salary like any other job. Most places in the world don't have that sort of backing.
No they aren't.
Most developers in the Japanese Eroge industry are the equivalent of Indie Studios in the West, I am not sure what Publishers you are dreaming of, what Publishers? What Fucking Publishers? You think Sony is funding loli porn?
The reason why they are "completed on release" is because they are actually professionals that take themselves seriously and create actual products as an actual Indie Studio would.
They aren't wannabe amateurs that think themselves "cinematic directors" while milking their pay piggies for decades.
They write their story, plan their projects, manage their budget and assets and actually fucking finish things like actual Professionals that actually Do Their Fucking Job.

Sure if their level is that of amatures that consider it a hobby and the funding they are getting is just a couple of bucks that is fine.
But if they get enough funding with a proper team behind then there is no excuse for unprofessionalism and just doing whatever, at some point you got to treat it seriously like a Job like any Pro would.
There are projects and studios that take things seriously that I have much respect for, you know them since their projects actually gets finished, who would have guessed?
 
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anne O'nymous

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Most developers in the Japanese Eroge industry are the equivalent of Indie Studios in the West,
This, yes.


I am not sure what Publishers you are dreaming of, what Publishers? What Fucking Publishers? You think Sony is funding loli porn?
But that... In what fucking dreamland do you live?

There's a shit tons of game publishers in Japan, as to be expected for the biggest video game market. Among them many like by example, are either specialized in Eroge, or have a brand dedicated to them; for Aquaplus it's .
Unlike what you clearly believe, being a big publisher doesn't mean that you never published Eroge. Like by example or , before they merged to become Square Enix. If there's not more video games publishers that have eroge titles nowadays, it's because traditionally they focus on the Japanese market, where , and nowadays mobile gaming. And, like we all know, console publishers control what they accept on their product, while not accepting nudity anymore; in 96, when Sega launched the Saturn, they made a public statement regarding the fact that they'll not anymore permit nudity on it [search for " "].


The reason why they are "completed on release" is because they are actually professionals that take themselves seriously and create actual products as an actual Indie Studio would.
No, the reason why they release completed games is cultural.
It slowly change, but it's not in their culture to hunt two prey in the same time; corporate culture is still something strong in Japan. Therefore they do like amateur mangaka, they works, hard, for years, until they've put aside enough to live while working full time on their game. And if they succeed, they'll continue that way.
Be also noted that Japanese adult games generally need less development time. Globally, they either are RPG-like, with a lot of action and few lewd on the side, or they are closer to Kinetic Novels than to Visual Novels. What mean that they need simpler stories, have two handful of lewd CGs, and massively rely on reused sprites.
 

morphnet

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"Yes, Patreon is a form of crowdfunding, specifically a subscription-based platform where creators can monetize their work by allowing fans to pledge monthly support in exchange for exclusive content or perks "

Yes I have access to the internet, there's your answer - Patreon is a form of crowdfunding
I really need to stop giving people the benefit of the doubt. An incomplete answer is still an incorrect answer. Using a blanket / umbrella term WITHOUT specifying which section it falls under is plain ignorant and spreads misinformation.

No intelligent, rational person would accept "crowdfunding" as an answer. Don't understand what I'm talking about? I'll walk you through it.

Crowdfunding is a blanket / umbrella term used to describe no conventional raising of funds HOWEVER within the blanket / umbrella is multiple services with multiple options each with very specific abilities, guidelines and outcomes.

In other words different options give people different expectations of what they will be doing and / or achieving through that option.

Some crowdfunding service are target specific i.e. raising funds for a project, a product, an event etc.
Some crowdfunding service are generalized i.e. raising funds for an organization, non time specific event (relief or aid supplies)
Some crowdfunding service are in support roles i.e. supporting creators, media etc.

Each of these services offer specific plans and explain what expectations and outcomes those taking part in them can expect.
eg. Kickstarter offer live campaigns of 90 days to donate. Indiegogo offers live campaigns of 120 days
In both these examples people know they can donate in the 90 or 120 days period to that campaign.

By simply saying patreon is crowdfunding you are giving half an answer / an incomplete answer which makes your answer wrong. Those VERY important details you refuse to add make a a huge difference and determine whether you point of scam has merit or not.

If the dev has run a kickstarter with promises and after the donations, took the money and run THAT would be a scam.
Having a dev with an active subscription based account where supporters / fans can over a longer period of time decide if the dev is living up to their promises and then decide to pull all support or lower their support does NOT constitute a scam.

So why do you think it's ok to use half truths here when in ANY business sector it would be required to fully disclose all the details / information?

It's like a guy telling his wife "don't worry about our money problems, I'm in a race"

Should / would the wife be satisfied with that answer? What expectations can she set for the budget with that answer?

Is it a funrun with $50 for 1st place? Is it a marathon with $1000 for 1st? is it an illegal drag race with $5000 for 1st BUT her husband could also loose his car?

Your using crowdfunding is like the husband using race.... pointless AND incorrect.

Look them up your self! what am I? your own personal directory service?
Couldn't even find one huh? :ROFLMAO:

There are at least a fair few,
Statements WITHOUT facts :rolleyes: You are claiming that there are a FEW publishers, willing to take on indie porn games developers in the west and publish their games in the west?

besides that any lacking of available publishers can easily be explained by a lack of need for them
Oh good cover.... :ROFLMAO:

There definitely are a few western porn game publishers but if there aren't it's because there's no need for them :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

To my knowledge Game publishers will not fund a project without the development team first making a demo to show that they have the experience and skill to complete the game.
I repeat - to show that they have the experience and skill to complete the game.
Then your "knowledge" is very lacking!

What you meant to say was proof of concept (POC). A demo is something completely different.

Proof of concept (POC):

A proof of concept (POC or PoC), also known as proof of principle, is an inchoate realization of a certain idea or method in order to demonstrate its feasibility[1] or viability.[2] A proof of concept is usually small and may or may not be complete, but aims to demonstrate in principle that the concept has practical potential without needing to fully develop it.

A proof of value (PoV) is sometimes used along proof of concept, and differs by focusing more on demonstrating the potential customer use case and value, and is usually less in-depth than a proof of concept.[3]

Demo / game demo :

Game demos come in two variations: playable and non-playable (also called a "rolling demo"). Playable demos generally have exactly the same gameplay as the upcoming full game, although game advancement is usually limited to a certain point, and occasionally some advanced features might be disabled. A non-playable demo is essentially the gaming equivalent of a teaser trailer.

A proof of concept is for business, a demo is for the public / player / advertisement.

Taking sound bites and answering them like that is pointless.
If I don't understand then explain it to me, instead just repeatedly telling me I'm wrong, you're not helping anything and maybe you just aren't capable to begin with...
That is my bad, it's me again giving people the benefit of the doubt and thinking they would actually read what I wrote and go look something up for themselves... Strange how you telling me to look things up myself and you're "not my personal directory service " then refuse to look things up yourself....:rolleyes:

As for the answer, look at the first entry to this reply....

People are fed up with too many incomplete games and games that turn into outright scams
Most of those "fed up" people have never / will never support a dev or game. The ones that are supporting a dev or a game and feel the game is taking too long or the dev is scamming them, simply have to cancel their sub. Not seeing the issue?

Also this is ridiculously hilarious, you complaining about patreon and scams and then you say " I've never subbed to Patreon "




Look them up your self! what am I? your own personal directory service?
Still couldn't find one huh? :ROFLMAO: You also seem to like saying that, strange since you ask me to explain things to you while refusing to look things up yourself? Also don't be lazy and copy / paste :rolleyes:

People can do what ever they want with their money, I never said anything about that? WTF?
Burn it for all I care lol
Then stop bringing them up....

Before replying maybe get some fact, figures and ACTUAL information because it's seems like you are coping others and just relying on second hand information to argue with.
 

morphnet

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Aug 3, 2017
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This, yes.




But that... In what fucking dreamland do you live?

There's a shit tons of game publishers in Japan, as to be expected for the biggest video game market. Among them many like by example, are either specialized in Eroge, or have a brand dedicated to them; for Aquaplus it's .
Unlike what you clearly believe, being a big publisher doesn't mean that you never published Eroge. Like by example or , before they merged to become Square Enix. If there's not more video games publishers that have eroge titles nowadays, it's because traditionally they focus on the Japanese market, where , and nowadays mobile gaming. And, like we all know, console publishers control what they accept on their product, while not accepting nudity anymore; in 96, when Sega launched the Saturn, they made a public statement regarding the fact that they'll not anymore permit nudity on it [search for " "].




No, the reason why they release completed games is cultural.
It slowly change, but it's not in their culture to hunt two prey in the same time; corporate culture is still something strong in Japan. Therefore they do like amateur mangaka, they works, hard, for years, until they've put aside enough to live while working full time on their game. And if they succeed, they'll continue that way.
Be also noted that Japanese adult games generally need less development time. Globally, they either are RPG-like, with a lot of action and few lewd on the side, or they are closer to Kinetic Novels than to Visual Novels. What mean that they need simpler stories, have two handful of lewd CGs, and massively rely on reused sprites.
Thank you! I had 6 pages open and was typing up a storm when I saw your reply. Saved me a lot of typing and frustration :LOL::giggle:
 

Geigi

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Jul 7, 2017
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How come only developers and players who want hardcore content are complaining about Patreon, but there's no complaints from Devs and players who are into vanilla erotic games/porn games without taboo content? So, Patreon is bad just because they won't allow rape, incest, bestiality, underage, etc., how peculiar.
 
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orellion

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How come only developers and players who want hardcore content are complaining about Patreon, but there's no complaints from Devs and players who are into vanilla erotic games/porn games without taboo content? So, Patreon is bad just because they won't allow rape, incest, bestiality, underage, etc., how peculiar.
Or ABDL, vore, real porn, and probably a few more new ones coming this year. Whatever they and the payment processors deem is "weird" and against their ivory tower morals.
 

DuniX

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Dec 20, 2016
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Be also noted that Japanese adult games generally need less development time. Globally, they either are RPG-like, with a lot of action and few lewd on the side, or they are closer to Kinetic Novels than to Visual Novels.
So Japanese developers can write a complete story and yet Western developers can't?
How is that anything but incompetence?
What mean that they need simpler stories, have two handful of lewd CGs, and massively rely on reused sprites.
Yes if the project has reasonable scope with proper planning in terms of assets you need instead of being a "cinematic director" wannabe.
I said it before just because they can doesn't mean they should.
It's entierly because of their bad habits the industry is in this state.
Just because Patreon has enabled those bad habits to fester doesn't mean it has to keep being promoted and excused.
Yes projects should use far more sprites then renderings.
 
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anne O'nymous

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How is that anything but incompetence?
It's the question I'm asking myself right now...

How can I write that, globally Japaneses games' stories are more basic than Western games' stories, and someone read it as, "Japanese developers can write a complete story and yet Western developers can't"?
What level of "I don't can what you said, I'll hear what I want to hear", did it need to reach this level of made up interpretation?

More basic stories are, obviously, easier and faster to write, in addition to being, obviously too, easier and faster to finish.
When your story resolve around a MC that will almost never be involved with more than one character during a playthrough, it obviously need less efforts to keep the story coherent. Like it's easier and faster to have consistent dialogs when you've never more that three characters involved in it. This while more than half of the discussions will be limited to a face to face with two characters only.
Strictly speaking, most Japanese games don't tell a story, they tell a slice of life. Whatever if they are date sim or RPG, they are fully centered on the MC, resolving solely around his journey to go from A to B. What mean that it's also easier and faster to write the story itself.


But Western games do not rely on this.

Even the cheapest ones tend to place the MC into a situation that resolve around him, but isn't his doing. Something that starts in the background, and is generally unknown from the MC. This while even none Harem Western games have more than one significant characters in addition to the MC and those responsible to the said "situation"; and by significant I don't mean possible alternate LI, but characters that will play a role into the story.
Whatever if it's Dating My daughter, with the "conflict" between the MC and his ex, or Dreams of Desire, while the whole century old conspiracy to control the world and actual conspiracy to end MC's legacy. Even games that looks more simple, like Big Brother, with Eric pervert mind, or Where The Heart Is, with the conflict around the heritage, most Western games have this background story that is missing in ~95% of Japanese games.

It obviously need more time to write, but also to develop (not in the coding sense), such story.
You need to weight everything for it to not be too obvious, but also for it to not come as a fully surprising plot twist. The MC and the player, need to feel that something is happening, that it's evolving.
And like there's more significant characters, you also need to take count of their own perception of the situation and it's evolution, as well as to the impact that each one of them have on all the others.
For each decision that a character will make, even if it's a decision that isn't immediately shown to the player (like by example the betrayal in Dreams of Desire), you have to think about the possible impact that it have on all the characters.
Obviously, all this need more time to write. But also more time to develop the story itself, because you've more characters to introduce, then to actually make evolve into the story. They can't be blind to what happen, they have react to it, whatever strongly and frontally, or as an aside.
If, by example, the MC get arrested for whatever reason, all characters that matters will react to this. His family will worry for his future, his friends feel concerned by what happened, while the baddies will be happy. And you can't just have the next interaction with each one of them to not take this into consideration.
The mother will scold him, the little sister say how afraid she was. The best friend will either be "well done", or, "what crossed your mind", depending on what led to the arrest. Let's say that MC is an adult, one coworker will shortly address the subject, what will show to the player that MC's coworkers know.
And it's even more important to make the baddies react to this. It's how the player, and possibly the MC too, while have a small hint that "this is a baddy". But obviously if we don't know yet that it's one, the reaction must be weighted. A smirk while saying that it's sad what happen to the MC, or a smile once the MC turn his back.
Here too it's something that is missing in most Japanese Games. They lack this level of subtlety because they don't need it, not relying on stories that have place for this. But, obviously, the time you'll pass to weight correctly this reaction, the time you'll pass to think about each character and how it would react to the event, you don't pass it to actually add words to your story. Those words are added to the background of each character, for them to react accurately in the future.


Yes projects should use far more sprites then renderings.
I'll take "how to say 'my comprehension level is limited, please explain the obvious to me', without saying it", for 500...
 

Insomnimaniac Games

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How can I write that, globally Japaneses games' stories are more basic than Western games' stories, and someone read it as, "Japanese developers can write a complete story and yet Western developers can't"?
Barring the outliers, this has always been my experience, especially in the RPGM space. Most japanese made games can be completed in an hour or two and the games have very few actual mechanics to them. (They also all seem to follow the exact same pattern of "warrior girl turned slut :ROFLMAO:) Hell, I could probably make something similar in a month, maybe month and a half. Even less if I didn't have to do animations. (I'm factoring in the time it takes to do the artwork, as most JP games are 2D)

So while they are "complete" they tend to be far shorter and more basic than most western games I've played. (I don't play VNs, so I don't know the standard length of those.)
 

morphnet

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Whatever they and the payment processors deem is "weird" and against their ivory tower morals.
There is no "and" in there. There is a hierarchy and patreon is below the payment processors, so they have to do what they are told to keep their service.

I don’t know if Patreon is an enemy or not, but I would never pay a monthly fee for game developers.
One, it's not a fee, it's a donation through a subscription service.
Many of the games on patreon are free, the donation only give access to the games earlier than the public release along with extras such as access to discord, renders, ability to vote in polls etc.

Don't donate, wait and you still get the game free.


Two, no one said anyone had to donate monthly. That is why the subscription service works so well. If you feel v0.3 was great, you sub $1-5 and then cancel, if you think v0.4-v0.6 suck you just pirate them or wait, then if v0.7 is great again you repeat sub and cancel. You can also sub for $5 and if you think the dev is slacking drop the sub to $1 until you feel they are working hard again. The subscription model gives fans many options while allowing them to be in FULL control of what they do with their own money.

So Japanese developers can write a complete story and yet Western developers can't?
How is that anything but incompetence?
You really do have a habit of ignoring ALL the important details and information and just writing whatever shit pops into your head.

I said it before just because they can doesn't mean they should.
YOU should REALLY re-read what YOU said here, take it to heart and apply it before hitting the "post reply" button!
 
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DuniX

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How can I write that, globally Japaneses games' stories are more basic than Western games' stories, and someone read it as, "Japanese developers can write a complete story and yet Western developers can't"?
What level of "I don't can what you said, I'll hear what I want to hear", did it need to reach this level of made up interpretation?
Because there is a Large Fucking Difference between a game that is Complete and a game that is Not Fucking Complete.

You don't have to be a Genius to understand the difference between making and selling an actual Product and a Scam.
Do Western Developers make Products? No, simple as that.

Strictly speaking, most Japanese games don't tell a story, they tell a slice of life. Whatever if they are date sim or RPG, they are fully centered on the MC, resolving solely around his journey to go from A to B. What mean that it's also easier and faster to write the story itself.
Wow, you really know how to pile on the bullshit, having a proper plot that goes somewhere is now "slice of life"?
There are plenty of RPGs and visual novels with much beloved story and characters. This Industry would not have been born if that was not the case.

It obviously need more time to write, but also to develop (not in the coding sense), such story.
You need to weight everything for it to not be too obvious, but also for it to not come as a fully surprising plot twist. The MC and the player, need to feel that something is happening, that it's evolving.
And like there's more significant characters, you also need to take count of their own perception of the situation and it's evolution, as well as to the impact that each one of them have on all the others.
That's another way of saying they are doing pointless meandering and the author writing themselves in a corner by not doing any planning.

If you boil things down you can break any story into Setups and Payoffs and the Satisfaction you get from those Payoffs.
How many of those Payoffs in Western projects are actually effective and bring Satisfaction to the readers in a reasonable time frame?
If they can't do that then all you are peddling is bullshit and excuses.
Spare me the "It's Deep Bro".

In most projects the premise/setting is mundane boring shit, even if it's not then the characters are boring, and even if by some miracle they have both a good premise and likeable characters the plot still doesn't go anywhere.
 
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DuniX

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But there are complete western games, what are you talking about?
Precisely.
Less pointless excuses and more finish their job like an actual professional.
At the end of the day Patreon is just a bunch of money, what they do with that money and the responsibilities that money represents is up to developers to decide for themselves.
 

tanstaafl

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Okay, so I read way more of this bullshit than I wanted to, then, because I was actually interested in finding out a few things I did some research. Patreon didn't create the issue, it exacerbated an issue that was created by kickstarter. And yes, it does provide creators with income that helps their creative endeavors...and encourages drip feeding. Prior to 2013 chapter based releases were rare, but not unheard of. After 2013...it's basically the norm for a lot of different types of content.

Prior to 2000 it was almost entirely text based games that would have multiple parts. Zork for instance. From 2000 to 2010ish it was basically only adventure style games that would release additions and content in an almost chapter based format. It wasn't until kickstarter games started hitting that we began to see the drip feed of content...the practice of devs scrounging for money, using the money, then scrounging for more to provide more.

This is also around the time that "games as a service" started being a thing. Companies started releasing incomplete products and fixing them as people paid and paid and paid.

Then our lord and savior Patreon comes along and drip feeds money to indie devs so that indie devs can drip feed content to us.

Is it a good format?

Fuck I dunno, maybe. But it sure is annoying sometimes.
 

Pr0GamerJohnny

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How come only developers and players who want hardcore content are complaining about Patreon, but there's no complaints from Devs and players who are into vanilla erotic games/porn games without taboo content? So, Patreon is bad just because they won't allow rape, incest, bestiality, underage, etc., how peculiar.
This x1000 - glad I'm not the only one irritated when some posters or players obsessed with certain 'genres' (to be polite about it) use the proverbial "We" in this conversation. Yeah, I know the argument, "First they came for the gentiles, and i was silent" blah blah blah. Untill I see patreon take any action outside hardcore incest/rape/loli stuff I'm 100% okay with their content policies, and no one speaks for me when they bring up patreon in a free speech context.

The other part discussed here is the whole drip-feeding perverse incentives of monthly funding. I don't think this is inherently a problem with the model - while I'd agree it CAN incentivize bad dev behaviors like milking/dripfeeding, the paying players are fully in control at any point to say "enough is enough, I'm cutting your paycheck".

So ultimately, no, I don't think the model is as much as a problem as players using their power to influence the market. It's not really the fault of devs of infamous titles like awam or big brother, it's the players who allow and encourage this behavior with their wallets.
 
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Count Morado

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Patreon comes along and drip feeds money to indie devs so that indie devs can drip feed content to us.
Without Patreon there would be a very small fraction of the western games in development and completed now available. Let's not delude ourselves about "Indie devs."

In group A: The ones we see on this site that use Patreon are mainly curious players who decided to dangle their toes in the water to create something they wanted to play but didn't find here. There are also the hobbyists. There are the side-gig "code and create when I have a couple of free hours from work and other obligations" (like Uber drivers).

In group B: Then there are the parttimers who have coding and/or artistic talent or training who are doing this part time because they do wish to shift away from their current job to doing this more full-time

In group C: Then there are the full timers.

Group A and most of Group B drip feed because that is all they are able to do with the time they have available. And these are the ones we are most likely to run into on this site. Calling them Indie devs is like calling your Aunt who bought a digital camera and business cards in 2010 a "professional photographer." Sure, we can call them that... But we would be stretching the truth.

Group C is less likely to drip feed, but far too often, our own world view and our own impatience, as well as our inexperience in creative creation or coding or writing, as well as our lack of exposure to what game development is really like, taints our perspective on what is "drip feed" and what is business as usual.

And to circle back, whether a creative on Patron gets $1, $100 (which the majority earn less than even after 4 years on patron), $1,000 or more (fewer than 1 in 8) - there is more Western game content than there would be without it existing. Patreon offers developers some income, some motivation, and for some - the dream of hitting it big, because they see the literal 1 in 100 adult game developer on Patreon bringing in $100,000+ per year and think it's easy money. (Queue up Dire Straits "Money for Nothing")

When some get hit in the face with reality, they slow down and some abandon their projects. But really, that not much different than what you see with people starting up businesses in our daily lives. We just don't have exposure to the vast majority, so we don't know it is normal.

And chapter based releases have never been rare. In writing, in movies, on radio, tv, or even games. They were just called different things.
 

morphnet

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Precisely.
Less pointless excuses and more finish their job like an actual professional.
At the end of the day Patreon is just a bunch of money, what they do with that money and the responsibilities that money represents is up to developers to decide for themselves.
You really do have a habit of ignoring ALL the important details and information and just writing whatever shit pops into your head.
Less pointless excuses and more finish their job like an actual professional.
Except they ARE NOT professionals, they are hobbiests and indie developers, many of them, making the projects in their spare time while working a full time job.

But sure why let FACTS get in the way of your delusions :rolleyes:

At the end of the day Patreon is just a bunch of money, what they do with that money and the responsibilities that money represents is up to developers to decide for themselves.




I said it before just because they can doesn't mean they should.
YOU should REALLY re-read what YOU said here, take it to heart and apply it before hitting the "post reply" button!
 
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tanstaafl

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As I said in my previous post, I'm not going to judge if the current way to do things is good or not, but, as I did say, it's annoying as hell sometimes.

And chapter based releases have never been rare. In writing, in movies, on radio, tv, or even games. They were just called different things.
Don't lie to yourself and to us. Chapter based releases have always been rare and limited to very specific categories.We're talking about computer programs and games here.

As for the rest...

Chapter based releases in writing and movies has never been a thing anywhere but fan fiction sites...because writing in books and movies come out as completed books and movies. Sometimes these books and movies have sequels.

TV has episodic content that is closest to how we get content in our porn games these days, especially in soap operas which are constantly written and filmed just a few episodes ahead. But they are on a schedule...not variable times between.

I think an even closer comparison would be the original episodic nature of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy radio broadcasts. No schedule, no real script even. Just random drops.
 
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