Patreon is the worst enemy of all adult game players

[thatisthecase]

The Asian scene address players who don't want to think, with a predictable story without twist or mystery, and being mouth fed every significant information.

Please look at the top VNDB VNs like White Album 2 or Subahibi and tell me the players don't need to think to understand
>bbut these game are in the minority
yes but they existed. They were games with great plot and characters that were once released in a complete state

Also I wonder how many of these so called "western" developers are actually Russian, Indian and Southeast Asian

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

Also I wonder how many of these so called "western" developers are actually Russian, Indian and Southeast Asian

I think the general rule is "QSP = Russian".

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

This also explains why western adult games are stagnating in quality. Unless tools like [Daz3D, Honey Select, Koikatsu, Ren'Py, and RPGM] improve or new tools, like AI, emerge—without diving into whether AI is good or bad—nothing will really change in terms of overall quality.

??? Is japanese adult industry not producing metric tons of visual novel and jrpg slop and basically nothing else? Isn't that stagnation? Did I miss something?

Insomnimaniac Games
QSP = margin of error.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Please look at [...]

Oh my fucking god, I forgot one "globally"...

Also I wonder how many of these so called "western" developers are actually Russian, Indian and Southeast Asian

Funny that there's no Australians in your list, because I know few of them...

 

[anne O'nymous]

[sorry for the double post]

Yes, these are just a few tricks.

Funny that you quoted the demo example, not the map or dress up system...

And? They are still mostly using either Ren'Py or RPGM.

Well, it's not the same that all using Ren'Py coupled to Daz and nothing else. But, unsurprisingly, I wasn't expecting something else coming from you.

 

[tanstaafl]

There are subscribers. For those subscriptions, they get certain benefits listed in the subscription tiers. As long as the developer meets those listed benefits, they have met expectations.

Subscriber benefits are largely not applicable to F95. There are quite a few games listed here with special notes from the devs along the lines of "We don't like our game being here, but we can't do anything about it...blah blah."

Just a side note.

 

[morphnet]

Daz3D is a posing program. And not a good one either. "B-but Daz3D can combine primite meshs and edit materials.".
Sure, but it's not make it a modelling or texturing program.

Daz Studio is a free 3D software suite for creating your own stunning 3D scenes that you can turn into high-resolution 3D images (renders) and animations. With over 3 million worldwide users and 30,000 free and premium 3D digital assets, Daz 3D helps users create 3D art with ease.

You must be registered to see the links

Daz 3D software allows for various kinds of 3D content creation, such as sculpting, shading, backgrounds, and others such as:[21]

• Sculpting: Daz 3D Hexagon features include sculpted primitives and freehand modeling brushes, which allow users to sculpt detailed 3D models.
• Shading: Besides conventional 3D scenes, artistic, cartoon-like renders are also possible through Daz 3D's shaders.
• Characters: Daz Studio allows users to create highly configurable 3D character models either from scratch or by importing pre-made or self-created assets.
• Costumes: Using the software, users can also design 3D outfits that have realistic materials, rigging, and real-time movement simulations.
• Backgrounds: Daz 3D software can also be used to create 3D environments for use as backgrounds in 3D scenes.

Your opinion will never outweigh facts.

Yes, these are just a few tricks. Not even worth to call it a game engine, which is not called that way even by

You must be registered to see the links

. Just a "visual novel engine".

Reading is an important skip

You must be registered to see the links

"What is Ren'Py?
Ren'Py is a visual novel engine – used by thousands of creators from around the world – that helps you use words, images, and sounds to tell interactive stories that run on computers and mobile devices. These can be both visual novels and life simulation games. The easy to learn script language allows anyone to efficiently write large visual novels, while its Python scripting is enough for complex simulation games.

Ren'Py is open source and free for commercial use."

He clearly states he intended it to be used to make games as well as visual novels.

And? They are still mostly using either Ren'Py or RPGM.

and you are still COMPLETELY ignoring the topic. At this point you are just spewing dubious BS to stir the pot.

Also, I don’t want to waste my time educating you, so move on if you can’t really add anything valuable to the discussion.

IF ANYONE should "move on" it should be you, you've add nothing on topic, your opinions are not based in reality, you're posting half information / misleading quotes and clearly lack ANY understanding of the context, Oh and you jumped in here after us and have shared NOTHING of value.

But this is a PUBLIC thread so not gonna tell you to move on just keep reminding you, you've off-topic and out of context.

You're off-topic and out of content

 

[Count Morado]

Also I wonder how many of these so called "western" developers are actually Russian, Indian and Southeast Asian

Western is used to denote a difference from the publishing system of Southeast Asia games, like in Japan. It is not meant to denote the cultural or ethnic background of a developer.

Subscriber benefits are largely not applicable to F95. There are quite a few games listed here with special notes from the devs along the lines of "We don't like our game being here, but we can't do anything about it...blah blah."

Just a side note.

What does this have to do with my comment or the context of my comment?

The person was saying subscribers were customers. They are not, except in circumstances where a creator on Patreon has a store and is selling products through it.

As subscribers they aren't buying anything. Nothing. In exchange for their subscription, the creator may offer benefits, structured in tiers, as a show of gratitude for the subscriptions. Creators don't have to, but are encouraged to. Discord server access, special discord roles, voting on possible content, etc. Some offer access to in development content in the form of releases for subscribers to get a sneak peek.

Once they make a commitment to offer benefits, they are expected to fulfill. If they do not, subscribers may choose to stop subscribing or continue on with the knowledge they may never receive their benefits. The ball is in their court.

As for relevance for F95, this whole bitching about Patreon is irrelevant for F95 because we get shit pirated (or developers post here, directly).

But here the fuck we are.

 

[Wankyudo]

Old thread IKR, but if the other option is to start up yet another Patreon scam thread, which is worse?

both. both are bad. you quoted me on a two year old post on a topic that had been done to death on a subject that has already had multiple threads from the same type of entitled manbabies arguing the same fallacious points as to why they believe patreon creators should be held accountable in extra ways when they can already be held accountable by not giving them money.

welcome to the forums. this was a bad introduction.

 

[tanstaafl]

Western is used to denote a difference from the publishing system of Southeast Asia games, like in Japan. It is not meant to denote the cultural or ethnic background of a developer.

What does this have to do with my comment or the context of my comment?

The person was saying subscribers were customers. They are not, except in circumstances where a creator on Patreon has a store and is selling products through it.

Nothing per se other than expanding on the detail. And I feel it is very pertinent to point out that Patreon was not started to be a subscription service, but evolved to be that way as more and more creators became more software as a service oriented...if only because it is something that people should keep in mind when discussing it.

 

[thatisthecase]

Western is used to denote a difference from the publishing system of Southeast Asia games, like in Japan. It is not meant to denote the cultural or ethnic background of a developer.

The guy I quoted literally said Asian games have inferior writing (on average Japanese porn games probably do have inferior writing because there are so many RPG maker trash over there). He also said "In a way, this tell a lot about the cultural difference" so don't tell me this doesn't mean to denote cultural background of the devs.
I do hope he doesn't include someone like Bo Wei in "Western" category however.

 

[Count Morado]

Nothing per se other than expanding on the detail. And I feel it is very pertinent to point out that Patreon was not started to be a subscription service, but evolved to be that way as more and more creators became more software as a service oriented...if only because it is something that people should keep in mind when discussing it.

Sigh. For the third time in this thread, I'll post this:

At Patreon, our mission is to empower creators to live off their art by providing them with the tools and support they need to connect with their fans and build a sustainable income.​

While, in 2013, Patreon was founded with the idea that people would drop a tip into a creator's patreon account when new content was created, it quickly evolved so that their mission could be better realized. In 2015, it acquired Subbable, which was was subscription based service - where people could drop a tip either as a one-time donation or as a recurring system to show support for the accounts on its site. Patreon has been a subscription based system for a decade. At least 8,558 of the 8,658 adult game developers currently on Patreon started after it acquired Subbable (March 2015) which have barely a few thousands (of the million+) adult game subscribers.

Over 90%... dare I say, over 98%... of all the subscribers and creators in the adult game category only know Patreon in its current form as a subscription based service. There are still a few (can count on my hands and feet) adult game creators who do only receive their subscriptions per 'creation.'

That's like saying in a conversation about Coca Cola, that we should "keep in mind when discussing it" that it once had cocaine in it. The first 18 years of the 139 years it's been around... sure... but for the last 121 years? Nope and there is no one alive who ever drank Coca Cola when it did have cocaine.

The conversation is about the Patreon we all know and are familiar with - and 98%+ of this community is aware of. Not the first 22 months of its 142 months of existence.

 

[tanstaafl]

[snip]

It acquired subbable in 2015, but the true software as a service features weren't fully in place until 2017 when it began implementing membership benefits and the like. You keep trying to drop knowledge bombs on someone who knows the bombs as well as you do. We aren't disagreeing about anything other than whether the site is beneficial or harmful in the long run. I'm on the "it's hard to predict, it could be bad or it could be good, but in the mean time, a whole bunch of people are taking advantage of a lot of other people." And you seem to be on the "If you question anything at all about Patreon you're a heathen and a blasphemer." Which is fucking odd.

 

[Count Morado]

It acquired subbable in 2015, but the true software as a service features weren't fully in place until 2017 when it began implementing membership benefits and the like. You keep trying to drop knowledge bombs on someone who knows the bombs as well as you do. We aren't disagreeing about anything other than whether the site is beneficial or harmful in the long run. I'm on the "it's hard to predict, it could be bad or it could be good, but in the mean time, a whole bunch of people are taking advantage of a lot of other people." And you seem to be on the "If you question anything at all about Patreon you're a heathen and a blasphemer." Which is fucking odd.

When in 2017?

Because I can tell you in February of 2017, the membership shit was in full effect:

You must be registered to see the links

Even that aside, though, that's 8 years ago. It still goes to the huge number of subscribers and creators in adult games who only know of Patreon and only have interacted with Patreon AS IT EXISTS TODAY. And is what this thread is about.

I'm not about dropping knowledge bombs. I am tired of misinformation, misattribution, and misdirection - whether through ignorance and obstinance. This entire thread is filled with it because of a simple bias for the desire of people to stroke their cocks to more lewd content from creators than they think they are getting now and they are blaming Patreon and developers for their lack of strokage. Pure and simple.

I am not the one making your complaint... you are. I don't want to ignore many of the posts. There is a lot of misinformation, misunderstandings, and mistakes made in posts made by others and so I respond to them.

I despise the spreading of misinformation and willful ignorance.

There are status-quo/traditionalist views which are also defaulted to by users - whether through incompetence, incompleteness, or misinformation.

I am not going to be a meek and shy person and let people spew hatred, lies and misinformation about their bigoted views about others.

And as I have stated before on F95 - "I despise the spreading of misinformation and willful ignorance" and so I may feel compelled to respond if you do so.

hen a person lies, spreads misinformation intentionally or not, willfully denies the facts and information. When they are trying to force their bigoted views on others. That's what has been going on in this thread. That's when I will speak up.

It has everything to do with others' laziness, sense of entitlement, spreading of misinformation (intentional or not).

No, they keep asking. Others join in. Conjecture and misinformation is spread. More people join in.

You "it's hard to predict..." blah is just a facade over your bias against Patreon. That's fine, but own up to it.

I am not on the side of Patreon or developers or anyone. I'm on the side of making sure we have all the right information instead of it being filtered through a skewed lens distorted by lack of blood to the brain.

 

[tanstaafl]

When in 2017?

Because I can tell you in February of 2017, the membership shit was in full effect:

You must be registered to see the links

In June 2017, Patreon announced a suite of tools for creators to run membership businesses on the Patreon platform. Notable improvements included a customer relationship management system, a mobile app called Lens, and a service to set up exclusive livestreams.

You must be registered to see the links

Even that aside, though, that's 8 years ago. It still goes to the huge number of subscribers and creators in adult games who only know of Patreon and only have interacted with Patreon AS IT EXISTS TODAY. And is what this thread is about.

I'm not about dropping knowledge bombs. I am tired of misinformation, misattribution, and misdirection - whether through ignorance and obstinance. This entire thread is filled with it because of a simple bias for the desire of people to stroke their cocks to more lewd content from creators than they think they are getting now and they are blaming Patreon and developers for their lack of strokage. Pure and simple.

You "it's hard to predict..." blah is just a facade over your bias against Patreon. That's fine, but own up to it.

I am not on the side of Patreon or developers or anyone. I'm on the side of making sure we have all the right information instead of it being filtered through a skewed lens distorted by lack of blood to the brain.

Horse shit. You are basically felating them every time you talk about them. "misinformation, misattribution, and misdirection" my ass. The only thing you can say about what I've said is that "They've been like that for 8 years." as if that changes anything about what I said. Did I say "Last week" at any point in my posts or did I say they started one way then changed to another?

Edit: For clarity, I don't think Patreon is the problem, I think Patreon is exacerbating an issue with games and software as a whole.

 

[Count Morado]

You must be registered to see the links

Horse shit. You are basically felating them every time you talk about them. "misinformation, misattribution, and misdirection" my ass. The only thing you can say about what I've said is that "They've been like that for 8 years." as if that changes anything about what I said. Did I say "Last week" at any point in my posts or did I say they started one way then changed to another?

Did you read the article or only depend upon the text in wiki? The wiki sentence you quoted is not what you think it is. This is the misinformation, either through ignorance or obstinance, that I am talking about. Either you grabbed at that sentence ignorantly thinking it supported what you thought, without looking further --- or you intentionally quoted thinking someone would not check.

You specifically stated:

I feel it is very pertinent to point out that Patreon was not started to be a subscription service, but evolved to be that way as more and more creators became more software as a service oriented...if only because it is something that people should keep in mind when discussing it.

No, something over a decade ago, and something that 98%+ of users (creators and subscribers) don't have experience with is not pertinent. What is pertinent is what people have experienced for the past decade --- where their gripes and complaints and whinings are coming from and being directed.

I stand by my 10 years original statement of subscription service. Especially since the archive of the Summertime Saga page I previously shared with you predates the wiki quote you subsequently provided from an article in June 2017. The article which doesn't say what you think it said.

Spoiler: ACTUAL ARTICLE REFERENCED

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Hell, the article even supports one of the arguments I've been making about what Patreon should be considered as:
"Conte says that experience was his eureka moment where he began to think about asking his fans to give him a dollar or two a month much in the same way membership platforms like PBS’ KQED does or SF MOMA does."

 

[tanstaafl]

[snip]

From day one it was used as a subscription service, which is why they implemented the tools to actually make it a business model. From day one people could contribute monthly and get access to special features and/or the content in and of itself. That, by definition, is a subscription. So, you are right it was being used that way prior to the tools being implemented and I never said they didn't, but they gave them the tools to make it an actual business model later.

But this entire argument is pointless because I have never given any misinformation about about patreon other than misremembering some book releases being serials. You seem to think that a decade is a long time, and to some people it may be, but to me it's pretty much last Tuesday. My point and my issue with Patreon is the Games/Software as a service issues with gaming and software as a whole. SaaS and GaaS articles and videos started up well before that...as the "state of games" started going downhill in a big way.

 

[tanstaafl]

If you want a platform that I think that is doing it right and actually elevating creators (writers in this case) without exacerbating an already existing issue, look at Royal Road.

 

[Count Morado]

So, you are right it was being used that way prior to the tools being implemented and I never said they didn't, but they gave them the tools to make it an actual business model later.

but the true software as a service features weren't fully in place until 2017 when it began implementing membership benefits and the like.

The tools were already there for memberships benefits before June 2017 -

in February of 2017, the membership shit was in full effect:

You must be registered to see the links

What they added in June 2017, were additional tools to enhance that which was already there. So when you say "fully in place" - sure - but that is hedging. The tanstaafl today will not be considered the "fully in place" tanstaafl of tomorrow, because some of you will change, evolve.

As for a decade not being a long time.... to me, it was last Tuesday, as well - I'm about your age - give or take 5 years either way. However, it is nearly the entire lifetime of Patreon. For at least 10 years of the fewer than 12 years of its existence, Patreon has essentially offered the same system - with a few alterations to enhance. And with some changes "of the wallpaper". For 98%+ of all the adult game developers and subscribers it has been this way for the entire time they have experienced it.

The topic of the thread was "Patreon is the worst enemy of all adult game players."

In your own words:

Edit: For clarity, I don't think Patreon is the problem, I think Patreon is exacerbating an issue with games and software as a whole.

I believe Patreon is not exacerbating issues with games and software. I think players and users with their sense of entitlement and their lack of knowledge and experience in software and game creation are the biggest issue. They don't know what is involved. All they know is what they want and that they want it now and they blame developers, in general, and Patreon for them not getting what they want when they want it.

Before the subscription model and early access models - people had to wait however long it took before a game or software would be released. Whenever a publisher decided it was time to pull the trigger. Then would come the DLC, the bugfixes, the weekly health updates, etc. And then after a few years, Software 2.0 with its subsequent DLC, bugfixes, etc.

Now, with the subscription and early access models, people are seeing how the sausage is made. The ups and downs, the dips and twists and turns. The dropping of projects, adding of new projects, the diversions, the loss of development time due to sickness, etc. They are also being exposed to a hundred-fold more games and software than they ever would have - software and games that would never make it to the retail shelves. Software and games made by a person out of the home office - slowly, in their free time, 2 to 20 hours per week - and all the frustration that goes with it.

They are subscribing without thinking with their brains, but only with their dicks. "That art looks hot" SUBSCRIBE "The story has promise" SUBSCRIBE. Etc. Without thinking about what they are getting into. The average subscription in adult games on Patreon is between $2.30 and $4.50 per person (depending upon the calculation) per month. And for that they think they are buying the software or game. They are not. They are subscribing as members to support the developer in their work in the development of a game.

Some of those games will become finalized. Some will not. Some will always be in development (such as Summertime Saga) - because they don't need a retail version anymore. If they want to revamp the art - they can continue to do so while still in development. If they want to revise the storyline - they can continue to do so while still in development. They don't have to release a retail "final" version to then offer DLC, bugfixes, health updates, and sequels to. They can just keep developing. Add characters? Sure, while still in development. Add genres, remove genres, boom.

If subscribers don't like that - they can stop subscribing and take with them what they got as membership benefits up to that point for their subscription.

I don't think Patreon is exacerbating any problems. I think players not understanding what they are subscribing to or what Patreon and the subscription system is about is the problem.

Subscribing means you like what the creator is doing. Just like when you go to the museum and drop a donation into their well before you leave - you like what their are doing. If you don't like what they are doing... don't drop a dime and head out.

As players on F95 - we have benefitted greatly for Patreon's role in game development. Without Patreon, there wouldn't be as many games with as many options as their are now. Because there wouldn't be as many potential creators who could find the carrot to entice them forward. For some, $100 USD per month may be enough in their community to survive, depending upon their economic status for their country. However, it's the potential of earning $100,000 per year or more, like creators such as Dark Cookie, or even $40,000 per year or more (still, a small percentage of creators) so that they can quit their current jobs - that is one of the draws which pulls in people to create a fair number of the games we find on here.

People who, in reality, would never get a second glance at their resume if they applied at a game studio. Particularly if the person's interest is in adult games. This is their food truck when they can't afford to run a restaurant. This is their "arts and crafts" booth when they would never get a gallery to sell their art. And players - both subscribers and pirates like me - need to remember this.

Patreon is not the problem. Patreon is not the enemy.
Developers are not the problem. Developers are not the enemy.

If you want a platform that I think that is doing it right and actually elevating creators (writers in this case) without exacerbating an already existing issue, look at Royal Road.

I'll take a look at Royal Road. As an instructor of English, anything that advances an author's chance, legitimately, to publish and earn a living is always interesting. I am currently on Substack and work with small publishing houses.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

I personally believe whatever cons patreon/substar may or may not have, the benefits they give far outweigh them.