Ren'Py Abandoned Power Vacuum [Ch. 12 Official] [What? Why? Games]

[Snugglepuff]

What about people who get reproductive organs removed as cancer treatment? Are they still men and women? If so, maybe this is more nuanced then you thought?

There's no "nuance" in relation to what you've just written.

That example is terrible, and I'm sure every man and woman who's had to have their genitals removed because of cancer, would smack the shit out of you for using them like that.

 

[Fayn Arawn]

There's no "nuance" in relation to what you've just written.

That example is terrible, and I'm sure every man and woman who's had to have their genitals removed because of cancer, would smack the shit out of you for using them like that.

Ever heard of a rhetorical question? I thought my point was obvious, that his anatomy-based definition of men and women just doesn't hold up.

EDIT: To clarify (just in case), OF COURSE they are still men and women! (If they still want to smack the shit out of me for validating them, they're welcome to try!)

This means that the state of being a man or woman must be linked to something besides anatomy.

 

[Snugglepuff]

Ever heard of a rhetorical question? I thought my point was obvious, that his anatomy-based definition of men and women just doesn't hold up.

Except that it does hold up.
People like to throw around exceptions like some kind of "gotcha", failing to realise why they're exceptions in the first place. Yours is easily the most common one that gets used, followed by the extremely rare cases of genetic and feotal developmental disorders where someone's dna/chromosomes/gametes/physiology do not follow the norm like the majority of the human population.

 

[AVNTester2]

I think that was enough of that topic no?

 

[Dr. Mick]

ahhh, 1st world people and their obsesion with identity
drew not produce ovules and can't give birth, he has a prostate and produce semen, he is a man thats it, if he want to be called a women is other thing totally apart from reality XD

People like to throw around exceptions like some kind of "gotcha", failing to realise why they're exceptions in the first place. Yours is easily the most common one that gets used, followed by the extremely rare cases of genetic and feotal developmental disorders where someone's dna/chromosomes/gametes/physiology do not follow the norm like the majority of the human population.

None of which matters because, as I already pointed out, gender is not the same as sex assigned at birth.

If you want to state that you don't care about someone's identity that's certainly your choice. It's disrespectful, unfailingly rude, and ultimately harmful, yet it is your choice.
However, don't try to hide behind a misrepresentation of biology and genetics to attempt to justify your stance. It doesn't matter what configuration of chromosomes someone has, nor do anatomy, physiology, organs, or even genetics have anything to do with gender.

Gender is a societal identity, chosen by the individual, and separate from any other factor.

Period.

 

[Snugglepuff]

None of which matters because, as I already pointed out, gender is not the same as sex assigned at birth.

Doesn't apply to anything I wrote.

If you want to state that you don't care about someone's identity that's certainly your choice. It's disrespectful, unfailingly rude, and ultimately harmful, yet it is your choice.

I have not said or implied anything of the sort.
Go back read what I've been replying to, what I've written, and understand that I've said nothing either way about my views on the subject of an individual's gender identity.

However, don't try to hide behind a misrepresentation of biology and genetics to attempt to justify your stance.

The stance that biology can't be changed with surgery?
That's not a stance, it's a fact.
Altering appearance for the purpose of appearing as the opposite sex doesn't change the fact that an individual was born as, and is still that sex regardless of the changes made.

As I already said, and you must have missed it since you've only quoted a single post of mine on the subject so far, it is not incorrect for DD69-1 to view/address Drew as a man.
It's not nice, but it's not incorrect.

 

[Grey Wolf 73]

Damn, I need more popcorn.

 

[Snugglepuff]

Damn, I need more popcorn.

Sweet, buttered or salted?

 

[Dr. Mick]

Doesn't apply to anything I wrote.

As I already said, and you must have missed it since you've only quoted a single post of mine on the subject so far, it is not incorrect for DD69-1 to view/address Drew as a man.
It's not nice, but it's not incorrect.

You do realize I quoted someone else as well, right? Part of what I said was to them, and part to you.
Also quoted another post of yours earlier, the one containing the statement to which you're referring to the misgendering of Drew.
I quoted your more recent post because you appear to be making a corollary between sex and gender.

I've already said enough on the subject, and it seems the point is not coming across, so I'll reiterate as simply as possible:
If Drew identifies as a woman, which she does, and you're aware of that fact, which you are, calling her a man is indeed incorrect.

No other factors matter. None. Whatsoever.
Sex, biology, anatomy, genetics, chromosomes, physiology, organs, even medical records, are all irrelevant with regard to gender.
Drew identifies as a woman, so her gender is female; she is a she.

 

[Satou Pendragon]

Sweet, buttered or salted?

Salt n' Butter for me

 

[MAGO-DAG]

Salt n' Butter for me

This discussion is getting hot and hotter

 

[Snugglepuff]

You do realize I quoted someone else as well, right? Part of what I said was to them, and part to you.

Then don't lump them together.
Address specifically who and for what instead.

I quoted your more recent post because you appear to be making a corollary between sex and gender.

You made an assumption... Right now, you're the ass.

I've already said enough on the subject, and it seems the point is not coming across, so I'll reiterate as simply as possible:
If Drew identifies as a woman, which she does, and you're aware of that fact, which you are, calling her a man is indeed incorrect.

It's not incorrect.

No other factors matter. None. Whatsoever.

Yes, they do.

You want to support the "sex isn't gender" stance, then you have to stand by the fact that man and woman are not just gender terms but terms to identify an individuals sex as well.
You can't have it both ways.

Sex, biology, anatomy, genetics, chromosomes, physiology, organs, even medical records, are all irrelevant with regard to gender.
Drew identifies as a woman, so her gender is female; she is a she.

Here, you've just done what you were speaking out against. You address her as a woman, and saying that her gender is female.
DD69-1 said she's a man, others have said that's wrong because of gender identity issues, including yourself, and now you're using the terms woman and female interchangably for gender and sex.

Salt n' Butter for me

Mmmmmm... Buttery, salty goodness.

 

[bludysunday]

I am just going off by how the Dev refers to Drew and in the last updated referred to them as a she, so I go with she.

 

[Fayn Arawn]

Then don't lump them together.
Address specifically who and for what instead.


You made an assumption... Right now, you're the ass.



It's not incorrect.



Yes, they do.

You want to support the "sex isn't gender" stance, then you have to stand by the fact that man and woman are not just gender terms but terms to identify an individuals sex as well.
You can't have it both ways.


Here, you've just done what you were speaking out against. You address her as a woman, and saying that her gender is female.
DD69-1 said she's a man, others have said that's wrong because of gender identity issues, including yourself, and now you're using the terms woman and female interchangably for gender and sex.





Mmmmmm... Buttery, salty goodness.

I understand we're in a quandary because we have no way to "authenticate" a trans person's gender (not "sex"); we're stuck between judging their anatomy/genes, or taking them at their word. If we reject their word, we're sort of saying that being trans isn't "real". I think most people today have accepted homosexuality as "real", despite its contradiction to obvious biological design, it shouldn't be hard to recognize trans people have the same validity. It's about empathy; get to know a trans person and your views may evolve.

Maybe one day the technology will exist to "prove" that trans people are the gender they say that they are. And eventually, probably many years from now, people will look back at today's simplistic understanding of gender they same way we look back at phrenology, i.e. someone's identity and personality are not necessarily linked to their biological structures.

Now I'm wondering if there's a correlation between Power Vacuum players who still view Drew as a villain, and those who consider her to still be a man.

 

[Snugglepuff]

Now I'm wondering if there's a correlation between Power Vacuum players who still view Drew as a villain, and those who consider her to still be a man.

You left out the third group - Those who are aware of her being born a man and became a trans-woman, and address her with female pronouns.
See, that's where there's actual nuance - the categorisations of people's views and opinions of Drew, and trans-women/trans-men and how they treat them, which also gets even more nuanced in and of itself with the latter.


As for her being a villain... She seems more like an unwitting tool for Hunter's use in order to bed the women and sidetrack/distract Sterling. At least as far as the canon storyline goes.

 

[Fayn Arawn]

You left out the third group - Those who are aware of her being born a man and became a trans-woman, and address her with female pronouns.
See, that's where there's actual nuance - the categorisations of people's views and opinions of Drew, and trans-women/trans-men and how they treat them, which also gets even more nuanced in and of itself with the latter.

I was thinking something more along these lines...

Spoiler: crappy Venn diagram

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As for her being a villain... She seems more like an unwitting tool for Hunter's use in order to bed the women and sidetrack/distract Sterling. At least as far as the canon storyline goes.

On this we agree!

 

[Dr. Mick]

You want to support the "sex isn't gender" stance, then you have to stand by the fact that man and woman are not just gender terms but terms to identify an individuals sex as well.
You can't have it both ways.
Here, you've just done what you were speaking out against. You address her as a woman, and saying that her gender is female.
DD69-1 said she's a man, others have said that's wrong because of gender identity issues, including yourself, and now you're using the terms woman and female interchangably for gender and sex.

Okay, I'll make this as simplistic as possible to avoid any confusion.

First some terminology and facts:
Drew is a trans woman.
She is a pronoun which refers to someone identified, either by themselves or others, as a woman.
She is also a noun referring to a female or woman.
Drew can be shown directly introducing herself as a woman.
Therefore, calling Drew anything other than she is wrong.

Gender is simply separate from sex assigned at birth.
Are some terms interchangeable? Yes. That does not change the fact that if someone identifies as a particular gender, and you choose to use pronouns in contradiction to that gender, you are incorrect; regardless of what their sex assigned at birth might be.
I support the sex isn't gender "stance" because they are fundamentally different. Both in definition and classification.
If that's still unclear, then I'm not sure what else I can say to make it more understandable.

 

[jhose15xs]

dude, all this is ridiculous, people in general just dont want to recognize that they are wrong in whatever thing they believe
someone dm a mod to erase the comments and close the topic

 

[Snugglepuff]

Okay, I'll make this as simplistic as possible to avoid any confusion.

No, I'll make it simple for you. Just stop.
I've had enough of your disingenuous insinuations. This is the last time I'll ever respond to you, or even see a single thing you post that replies to or quotes a post of mine. Feel free to shout into the void, it won't have a contrary statement to reply to you.

 

[Fayn Arawn]

dude, all this is ridiculous, people in general just dont want to recognize that they are wrong in whatever thing they believe
someone dm a mod to erase the comments and close the topic

I'm also tired of this discussion, but it was (mostly) relevant to the topic of the game, considering Drew is trans and a major character in the story. Besides, how can people ever "recognize that they are wrong in whatever thing they believe" if those beliefs are never challenged in honest discourse?