Ren'Py Abandoned Power Vacuum [Ch. 12 Official] [What? Why? Games]

[JohnSeeReally]

Alright. What do you think the solution is?

Would you be satisfied if in November he said "Check back in March" then releases the update in January? Or would you be angry because March feels like too long? Do you think he gives the estimate of December because he likes lying to you? Or because people like yourself complain about release times and he's trying to make you happy?

He typically doesn't even give target months. He just says 35%, 50%, 85%, etc.

Do you think he's slacking off and being lazy? Because he gives progress reports and feedback.

What do you think is a solution to this problem?

The solution is to develop new skills and improve the ones he has. Estimating and creating timelines is a skill, to put it plainly he’s not good at it. He needs to improve whatever tool he uses to develop his estimates or he needs to put in more work to reach his estimates. This is something you need to be good at to be in any sort of management. For all intents and purposes, he is his own project manager, estimating timelines accurately is a skill he should have. He also waits until the very last minute every time to announce a delay when he surely knows way ahead of time. We’re approaching the end of the week, and still no release. If there was still this much work left, he damn well knew before December 24th when he announced the delay.

We get that you guys love his game, it’s great, but you excuse everything negative and freak out of everyone who gives any type of criticism. It’s like some of you are in a fucking cult. If this chapter isnt twice as long with double the words, like has been claimed constantly, will any of you call him out?

 

[Fayn Arawn]

The solution is to develop new skills and improve the ones he has. Estimating and creating timelines is a skill, to put it plainly he’s not good at it. He needs to improve whatever tool he uses to develop his estimates or he needs to put in more work to reach his estimates. This is something you need to be good at to be in any sort of management. For all intents and purposes, he is his own project manager, estimating timelines accurately is a skill he should have. He also waits until the very last minute every time to announce a delay when he surely knows way ahead of time. We’re approaching the end of the week, and still no release. If there was still this much work left, he damn well knew before December 24th when he announced the delay.

We get that you guys love his game, it’s great, but you excuse everything negative and freak out of everyone who gives any type of criticism. It’s like some of you are in a fucking cult. If this chapter isnt twice as long with double the words, like has been claimed constantly, will any of you call him out?

I used to write estimates for contract proposals. I would love more accurate release dates for this game, but I recognize it isn't an assembly line project where you can just load historical actuals and spin a Gantt Chart to follow. It's a creative work, and by its very nature doesn't have an explicit plan to adhere to. Obviously there's an outline, but a lot of the content is thought up while it's being produced. There's a back and forth to the workflow, outlining, rendering, writing, and often more renders are needed to support the writing. Trying to predict when it'll be complete is not an exact science, that's why it's called an "estimate".

Another aspect that many seem to forget is that each chapter has satisfying story progression for every character. On top of that, many of these plot lines are interconnected. So it's not as simple as cutting unfinished scenes and bumping them to the next chapter in order to meet an arbitrary deadline. If the dev did that, it could leave the current chapter a disjointed mess requiring extra work anyway just to make it coherent.

I'm too old to be offended by words like simp, shill, cope, etc. Honestly I'm just disappointed by the entitlement and unrealistic expectations on display here, by people who should just be thankful that someone else is paying for this game to be produced.

Having said all that, if we don't get a release this weekend I will be quite vocal in my disappointment.

 

[cosmefulanito333]

I used to write estimates for contract proposals. I would love more accurate release dates for this game, but I recognize it isn't an assembly line project where you can just load historical actuals and spin a Gantt Chart to follow. It's a creative work, and by its very nature doesn't have an explicit plan to adhere to. Obviously there's an outline, but a lot of the content is thought up while it's being produced. There's a back and forth to the workflow, outlining, rendering, writing, and often more renders are needed to support the writing. Trying to predict when it'll be complete is not an exact science, that's why it's called an "estimate".

Another aspect that many seem to forget is that each chapter has satisfying story progression for every character. On top of that, many of these plot lines are interconnected. So it's not as simple as cutting unfinished scenes and bumping them to the next chapter in order to meet an arbitrary deadline. If the dev did that, it could leave the current chapter a disjointed mess requiring extra work anyway just to make it coherent.

I'm too old to be offended by words like simp, shill, cope, etc. Honestly I'm just disappointed by the entitlement and unrealistic expectations on display here, by people who should just be thankful that someone else is paying for this game to be produced.

Having said all that, if we don't get a release this weekend I will be quite vocal in my disappointment.

Fair points. Still, a chapter is about a 10 month project, its hard to estimate at the start but being days away from release it should get easier.

 

[JohnSeeReally]

I used to write estimates for contract proposals. I would love more accurate release dates for this game, but I recognize it isn't an assembly line project where you can just load historical actuals and spin a Gantt Chart to follow. It's a creative work, and by its very nature doesn't have an explicit plan to adhere to. Obviously there's an outline, but a lot of the content is thought up while it's being produced. There's a back and forth to the workflow, outlining, rendering, writing, and often more renders are needed to support the writing. Trying to predict when it'll be complete is not an exact science, that's why it's called an "estimate".

Another aspect that many seem to forget is that each chapter has satisfying story progression for every character. On top of that, many of these plot lines are interconnected. So it's not as simple as cutting unfinished scenes and bumping them to the next chapter in order to meet an arbitrary deadline. If the dev did that, it could leave the current chapter a disjointed mess requiring extra work anyway just to make it coherent.

I'm too old to be offended by words like simp, shill, cope, etc. Honestly I'm just disappointed by the entitlement and unrealistic expectations on display here, by people who should just be thankful that someone else is paying for this game to be produced.

Having said all that, if we don't get a release this weekend I will be quite vocal in my disappointment.

I would agree if he was releasing estimated release dates immediately. He usually doesn’t give any estimated dates until 7+ months into the process. If you don’t have a good grasp on your timeline that far into the process there’s an issue. I am an Engineering Manager, I have to do this all the time for my teams projects. Scopes change, estimates change, and deadlines change; however if you are this far in and have to pivot last minute (less than a week before your estimate) then you either have a bad grasp of your efficiency, you put off the work, or you are being disingenuous to yourself to try to delay criticism. Being a repeated offender of this gets you reprimanded and fired when you aren’t your own boss. Considering he’s 4+ years into this, expecting him to grow and get better at this aspect seems like a pretty trivial ask from his fan base/customers. He hasn’t hit an estimated drop date in years, thinking that should be improved is in no way “entitlement and unrealistic expectations”. Most don’t even complain about the actual wait time, it’s being mislead with timelines changing last minute.

 

[Marlboro1911]

If you haven't seen any of my criticisms today or over the last 6 months as any good reason then your a shill who wont agree with anything I say even when I end up being correct about WWG you'll cope hard

bro the dev doesn't owe you shit except for early access and maybe a 4k wallpaper. You are/where donating to them, not paying to have access to the product. The amount of entitlement is insane, go outside and touch some grass.

 

[Fayn Arawn]

Still, a chapter is about a 10 month project, its hard to estimate at the start but being days away from release it should get easier.

Most don’t even complain about the actual wait time, it’s being mislead with timelines changing last minute.

Thank you both for these clear and valid points which I hadn't previously considered. In my own defense, I don't recall them being articulated so well (if ever) before. Most criticisms seem to boil down to "I don't believe it should take this long, the dev must be scamming", which I find ridiculous based on the increasing size and quality of each chapter. But it is fair to recognize the last minute delays could probably have been predicted and communicated sooner. Although even if they were, I wonder if we wouldn't have the same amount of complaining anyway. Damned if you do, damned if you don't?

 

[dartred]

we've never had a 10+ month update cycle, and it doesnt make sense rationally speaking.

Except it does. The update is bigger then last. bigger update, longer development time. That one wasn't hard to put together. it's probably as rational as it can get lol.

 

[JohnSeeReally]

Thank you both for these clear and valid points which I hadn't previously considered. In my own defense, I don't recall them being articulated so well (if ever) before. Most criticisms seem to boil down to "I don't believe it should take this long, the dev must be scamming", which I find ridiculous based on the increasing size and quality of each chapter. But it is fair to recognize the last minute delays could probably have been predicted and communicated sooner. Although even if they were, I wonder if we wouldn't have the same amount of complaining anyway. Damned if you do, damned if you don't?

I think he would even avoid a lot of the criticism if he didn’t give any timeline at all and just put out general status updates. There’s great devs on here that just put out status updates regularly and make things clear/transparent without setting timelines, yet they don’t get all of this flack (DPC and Caribdis are the best examples of this with long dev times). Everyone knows they’ll get a great product when it’s ready, and they trust those devs. A very simple and old adage in management is, “To under promise and over deliver is better than vice versa” (over promising and under delivering). As far as estimates and timelines go (not quality), WWG is seemingly always in the vice versa category.

 

[NachoAndCheez]

bro the dev doesn't owe you shit except for early access and maybe a 4k wallpaper. You are/where donating to them, not paying to have access to the product. The amount of entitlement is insane, go outside and touch some grass.

Dude, the product we get here is 100% piracy, the dev has no free build, he WAS paying to get access to the product.

 

[yeahwhatever]

What have I been reading these last few days

 

[BBC God]

What have I been reading these last few days

Uncontrollable erections vs ass-kissing pretty much.

 

[Thojnaan]

What have I been reading these last few days

I guess shit gets rowdy during the final stretch.

 

[Guts97]

He has dished out enough insults to others over the years, I'm sure he can take a jab or two....but then again maybe not since he booted me from his discord for saying his animations aren't very good.

My last reply. see yall on update day, next week.... maybe

If their animations aren't that good, why did you donate $10 a month for almost 4 years?
Also it's not for sucking his balls but his animations are good.
The problem here is that the community is bad used to games that are updated in 2 months and only get one or two animations. be patient motherfuckers

 

[Deleted member 1961891]

I guess shit gets rowdy during the final stretch.

 

[criestoomuch]

What have I been reading these last few days

Have you been here when they leak the betas? That's a shitshow. Just the same three or four posts over and over.

 

[Deleted member 1961891]

Have you been here when they leak the betas? That's a shitshow. Just the same three or four posts over and over.

I for one only catch the comments before. After the update comes out I'm... busy.

 

[MAGO-DAG]

I have a feeling there will be a heated discussion as soon as the update comes out!

 

[Renonymous]

Dude, the product we get here is 100% piracy, the dev has no free build, he WAS paying to get access to the product.

I think their point is that patreon is ultimately a donation service and, per Patreon's

You must be registered to see the links

, the only entitlement when you support a creator is access to existing content. You have no lien to future works by donating (anyone who's tried to get a refund from Patreon when an artist disappears or fails to deliver on a deadline knows this).

If you're using Patreon to purchase access to new versions of games, you should really just buy in when a new version drops and then cancel your subscription immediately after downloading the content.

If you're using Patreon because an artist's works brought you joy and you want to support them, that's awesome, but those are donations and you should really view them as such rather than getting toxic when the artist's productivity drops.

In either case, your money doesn't get you future content. It just increases the likelihood the artist will be able to produce future content with your support.

 

[TrueJackal]

Id be satisfied if he stopped making animations, we'd get faster updates... jokes aside.

my biggest issue has been the moment he said he was in the writing phase in SEPTEMBER its fucking january and only in December the release month he has to scramble to make more scenes because of the writing... if he was this godly writer you guys seem to portray him as you'd think he'd have the skill to write a little more quickly.

4 months of writing and you fools are lapping it up is probably his biggest joke in his failed stand up career and (yes WWG is a failed stand up comedian hence we have PV.)

I made a comment that got removed by mods explaining why 4 months for 200k words is perfectly viable. So I'll make it way simpler.

Google "how long it takes to write a book". His last chapter was like 100k words and this chapter is bigger. That's a full book length. Spoiler, books can take 4-8 months to write.

And no, I don't think he's a godly writer. I just think the criticisms are dumb. You don't like how long this is taking. That's fine. But that doesn't mean he's doing something wrong by putting more time into releasing the chapter instead of less time.

 

[TrueJackal]

I have a feeling there will be a heated discussion as soon as the update comes out! View attachment 3236569

I'll be too busy cleaning semen off the walls of my room