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Why are you comparing indie only? when did i ever mention that? topic was SFW vs NSFW, does the game feature porn or not? its that simple. Which will provide more and better paid jobs? You're chasing your tail again with your own tangents. By comparing only Indie you are basically stating that any game outside of indie is not employing.
I began with an example involving Riot Games because they provide a lot more jobs than most NSFW developers/publishers, Riot being only one of many other profitable companies doing so. Most NSFW games devs remain small because its not easy continuing to hire professionals. Instead they seek those with more basic level skills, or who do it for the love of the art, like Ero's team. Ero himself has no history of making games other than his attempt at MATM.
Even when using your example and checking the website, the tag "wholesome" which is SFW content has ~$310,000 average revenue and ~$12,000 average median. Way higher on both stats, 310% the revenue and 461.54% the median, wonder why you left that one out. Indie only describes if a game is independent or not, it says nothing of it's content. Most NSFW games themselves are indie, this whole website is proof of that. Why else would they need us supporting them?
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I feel one user is on commission/payroll, going by their posts.
This is going to be my last reply my gal, I'm pretty tired of this. The conversation started with talk about sfw vs nsfw artists, as in individual people making their living, heck you even implied that artists ony can work on games when you brought up programmers earlier. I compare exclusively indie because pretty much all nsfw games are indie games, why the genuine fuck do you think it would be fair to compare them to AAA titles? And do you think that all the money from AAA titles goes to the artists? Indie here is the comparison that makes sense, small teams or even single persons that make a game and receive the majority of its income. That is not even mentioning that these are numbers from a platform that is not geared towards nsfw, one that by default hides them behind a filter that is hidden in the settings menus.
Wholesome is a much more nebulous tag than the other 2 and only has a sample size of 243. That puts it at 0.3% of steam games compared to the 2.9% that is hentai. Much more likely to be a statistical anomaly. Take the very similar tag that is "family friendly" it accounts for 9.2% of all Steam games and only has a median of 920$. Do note that while "family friendly" and "hentai" are not mutually exclusive (absolutely hilarious, so clever) the overlap is 43 games out of the 7,662 so the effect should be pretty negligible.
I gave you numbers and examples from Patreon where I compared mid-earning nsfw artists vs the higher-earning sfw ones, you disagreed (and for some reason thought that nsfw artists don't do commissions). When I called Riot and Stardew Valley outliers in their respective fields you accused me of using outliers despite having literally quoted average values for sales and salaries, and then turned to say that the outliers are actually the best statistic to use.
The fact that nsfw art is in general very profitable has literally become a meme in and out of the art community. They even single out furry art in particular as being especially profitable. Something like that doesn't enter the cultural zeitgeist without some basis in reality.
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Let's address or comment on some of the points you make here. As always, correct me if I did get something wrong or was taken in the wrong context:
And what do we do after this? Rinse and repeat.
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And yet here we are, commenting and making fun of a person and his project for being a liability for 200 pages since the game's release while gaining nothing and maybe making a fool out of ourselves (sometimes, including myself) for almost as long as the game's existence, I suppose. So, how much progress do we make in terms of changing Eromancer's mind to be a more efficient project lead?
And what do we do after this? Rinse and repeat.
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You see, the reason why I don't argue with the gal anymore (maybe just asking a question or two). It's amusing y'all giving details but Kitty just said "No, you got it all wrong" and go on tangents at all times and dismisses a few points so that it makes you in the wrong most of the time.
Or in short... "The Pride of Eromancer shall not be infringed and tarnished, you mongrel dogs of F95"
- Dec 6, 2017
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i dont think we are ever going to change a greedy person's mind. as long as a greedy one is earning they will keep doing it. All we can do is warn others to not waste their money on this scam.
i guess as someone who knows their way on codes/programming, i REALLY just dont like the narrative of "UWU ErOmAnCeR iS jUsT hAvIng A hArD tImE bEcAuSe The CoDe Is CoMpLeX". that's just a poor excuse. i think the time for giving this dev/group the benefit of the doubt is long overdue.
yeah, my boss once told me "If you think that your work is hard and you're not doing anything to make things work you're just being lazy" but hey up to this dev if he'll give us updates or not. I'm out of this family feud, count me out. don't want to get bit by a cat.
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Whether it's greed, gross incompetence in managing time and resources, inexcusably slow development time, or a mix between the three...
Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is all according to plan -- gotta be honest, the dude knows how to make people so disappointed in himself
Changing the subject again? No problem, I got the facts here as well.
Patreon censorship didn't hit Eromancer on 2022. It was there all along regarding non-consensual sex and beastiality. Plenty of NSFW creators left (or got kicked out of) Patreon before Eromancer. Here are some examples:
StudioFOW left/got kicked out of Patreon on October 2018
Animopron left/got kicked out of Patreon around 2019
DarkLust left/got kicked out of Patreon before October 2020
A Third Dimension left/got kicked out of Patreon on September 2020
The Red Flags were all over the place, but Eromancer didn't see it coming until 2022, right? Let's check some more facts.
The Vioreaper had a retractable sting that was replaced by a dick back in April 2019. See this video:
You must be registered to see the links
And the Charger also had a dick back in February 2020 and was rigged and "ready for action" at seen at the end of this video:
You must be registered to see the links
Multiple Patrons asked them about H scenes with the Vioreaper and Charger for 2 years. Eromancer dodged the multiple questions for more than 2 years... until January 2022. Quote:
"So, one of the positive things that came out of the interactions with Patreon early this month is that we received direct permission to use some of our biomonsters in H scenes ^-^. We specifically got permission to use the Larva/Crawlers and Vioreapers."
They didn't do H-scenes for biomonsters for those 2 years because Patreon didn't allow Beastiality.
But what about non-consensual sex? Patreon didn't censor them before, right?. Again, I got more facts disproving that claim.
This is the "Game Over" screen concept from January 2020. And this is what Eromancer said about it. Quote:
" I started on the first game over H scene (it actually plays on the Continue screen), which you can see at the top of the post
. I'm designing these with the same vibe as
You must be registered to see the links
, where they always had some sense of peril for the player character as the clock counts down to Game Over. I'm really excited to get a bit further with this one so it's more obvious what I have in mind here ."
The scene got a few seconds loop animation, but was never implemented in-game (shocking, right?). However, on October 2020, one Patreon supporter asked this. Quote:
"Will we ever get that countdown game over screen that was hinted at earlier in production, to mimic the Final Fight SNES games?"
And this was Eromancer answer. Quote:
"The game over thing is in Patreon's hands unfortunately. ATM, I doubt it."
Patreon's censorship axe didn't hit Eromancer on 2022, it hit on summer 2020. Exactly at the same time as every other Patreon NSFW creator. That's why Darklust, A Third Dimension and many others left Patreon on fall/winter 2020. Eromancer just buried his head in the sand, "hoping" that Patreon would "change their minds" about it. And they hid this information from their patreons, "hoping" no one would notice.
2022's significant drop in content wasn't due to "Patreon censored my homework". It was due to Eromancer's incompetence. AGAIN.
Oh, and regarding the average income for 2022, you forgot to add the money they got from Subscribestar (another $3k to $4K). And also the sales they got from itch.io. The monthly average on 2022 was over $21K. I rounded it down to 20K for you as another "freebie"
But it doesn't matter, if it was $18K or $21K, because Eromancer said this on February 2022. Quote:
"$13,666! That's the magic number folks. If we can reach this number on SubscribeStar I can say with 100% certainty we can migrate Pure Onyx fully off of Patreon and therefore manage our own content.
Obviously, this number is not purely scientific -- there is leeway, especially pending your reaction to the following >.>
If we accomplish the above goal, then we will convert this Patreon campaign into a rule 34 project/series (not a game) that will feature animations and cinematic H scenes of popular game and hentai characters using our own custom models. Essentially Pure Onyx-style loops, tentacles, and all of that fun stuff, but featuring characters that you can vote on. It will utilize the cinematic mode framework from PO, but will be an altogether different project that won't utilize the Eromancer name, and will thus be in compliance with Patreon guidelines.
If you're skeptical as to how we would accomplish this -- we have a big and efficient character pipeline now, and our modelers are already well ahead of characters being integrated into Pure Onyx. This is doable!"
The last paragraph is probably Eromancer's best nonsense (up to this point in time, he always overdoes himself)
But one year later and an average over $21K/month we got less than half the content for Pure Onyx than the year before and just a few concept art and T-poses for Tifa and Olga for XXXIV.
But don't lose hope, 2023 is the year they will turn it all around, now that they have 2 more programmers, right? It's doable!
Sure thing... it's not like Eromancer has ever overpromised and underdelivered.
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It started when i said "NSFW alone stops most people, even when you compare normal artist vs NSFW artist, the normal artist usually make more because sadly NSFW content is not easily marketed as non-nsfw"
And that does NOT mean "no one will hire you" as you twisted it, means a some would not want to have a job associated in only NSFW. Also SWF content is in fact much more easily to market, that should not even be up for debate, NSFW has way more restrictions across the world. In China alone, a SFW game dev would make way more than a NSFW dev due to the extreme restriction on porn content of any kind. Which is why Tencent was able picked up Riot, being a SFW company, and despite so still censored and redesigned many of their in-game characters, you can imagine how it would have had they been a NSFW company.
I compare to AAA because most that finish their careers don't go out seeking tiny NSFW projects, a lot turn you well known establish companies and freelance for them or remain permanent.
That was my whole initial point of the example, it was a response to why Ero's team had trouble finding programmers. Despite you saying "nsfw" earns more it usually for a smaller teams or a single persons. Which is why your number is meaningless, it includes projects that have barely any employment. So why would everyone be lining up looking to find jobs at small NSFW teams? The primary point was to explain why talent would be scares to find for Ero until you stepped in debating about NSFW vs SFW.
People want to make sure they are being paid well for their time especially if they are professionals. And why would their skill level matter? it will help speed up progress if someone knows what they are doing, but would ask for a bigger cut. Ero's team are learning as they go hence why they can't just speedrun through production. They are finding new hurdles and trying to get through them, meanwhile money is piling up and people accuse them of scamming for not learning faster.
Bloodmane and CourierNPC, I think you misunderstood each other and have been arguing about 2 different things. So I wanted to add my 2 cents to both of you.
1- The difficulty of a Beat 'em Up from a technical perspective.
2- The difficulty to implement the ridiculous feature creep of PO from a content perspective.
First, I agree with Bloodmane that the "code was cracked" a long time ago on how to make a good 2.5D Beat 'em Up. From Technos' Renegade (1986), And Double Dragon (1987) to SNK's P.O.W (1988) to Konami's Crime Fighters (1989) and Capcom's Street Fighter '89 - aka Final Fight - (1989). They all lied the foundation on how to make great games in the genre, and dozens more great games followed during the 90s. After the 2000s the genre pretty much died out, but was recently revitalized by DotEmu with Streets of Rage 4 and TMNT: Shredder's Revenge. And a lot of "underground" great but unlicensed games using OpenBor like Double Dragon Reloaded or Final Fight LNS Ultimate.
Eromancer could have been smart and used OpenBor or any other existing engine but had to "reinvent the wheel" and do it from scratch. And the claims of "this is so hard, we only have 2 programmers" after 4 years of "development" make you lose your shit. I understand and agree with you. Eromancer just can't deliver a playable game while Shin (from StudioS - aka Studio Shin -), a one-man-army, developed this:
Alone, he did Fatal Fight in 13 months during 2011/2012. Does the game have excellent graphics? No. Does it have a lot of H-scenes? No, it has 6 female enemies and only 2 sex-scenes (all female enemies are skins of the same model). Does it have the best control responsiveness and hitboxes? No, it's quite average. Is it fun to play? HELL YEAH!
But to Eromancer's supporters, he doesn't count, because he's japanese. And making H-games is hard in the west somehow.
Second, I agree with CourierNPC that the project would need a lot more people to be completed, if the feature/content creep was under control. But it's never been. Eromancer can get hundreds of workers, but PO would keep getting more and more bloated.
An it's always been bloated, from the very beginning. This is Eromancer's "speech" when they stopped working on MatM from September 2018. Quote:
"The goal is to take part of the team and get a very fun and accessible side project built in Unity with a much smaller scope than MATM to you and to retailers ASAP. As it so happens, we currently have the golden opportunity to do this, as Steam has opened its doors to adult content. We all know that the adult game world is fickle, and that these doors of opportunity often close, meaning we have to make this move now. This in no way means we’ll sacrifice quality – it just means we’ll be very busy!
The game will take place in MATM's world, and act as an introduction to MATM's setting, the theme, the denizens of New Babylon, and even some of the characters. It will require MUCH less overhead development time, and what you'll see in this update is from only two weeks spent on pre-visualization."
And only 2 months later, in November 2018, this "much smaller scope" "side project" that they wanted to release "ASAP" already had plans to implement 5 stages out of 7 and 6 different factions. Quote:
"Here are some ideas I have for potential stages. We will select the best 5 (or so) ideas to use for the initial retail release of the game.
And weapons. He wasted even more time planning and making concept art for weapons! Quote:
"
Here are some of the weapon ideas I’m considering:
No amount of manpower would ever be able to deliver Eromancer's delusions. He must hire a lead developer capable of saying NO to the uncontrolable feature/content creep before any of his projects can ever get anywhere.
1- The difficulty of a Beat 'em Up from a technical perspective.
2- The difficulty to implement the ridiculous feature creep of PO from a content perspective.
First, I agree with Bloodmane that the "code was cracked" a long time ago on how to make a good 2.5D Beat 'em Up. From Technos' Renegade (1986), And Double Dragon (1987) to SNK's P.O.W (1988) to Konami's Crime Fighters (1989) and Capcom's Street Fighter '89 - aka Final Fight - (1989). They all lied the foundation on how to make great games in the genre, and dozens more great games followed during the 90s. After the 2000s the genre pretty much died out, but was recently revitalized by DotEmu with Streets of Rage 4 and TMNT: Shredder's Revenge. And a lot of "underground" great but unlicensed games using OpenBor like Double Dragon Reloaded or Final Fight LNS Ultimate.
Eromancer could have been smart and used OpenBor or any other existing engine but had to "reinvent the wheel" and do it from scratch. And the claims of "this is so hard, we only have 2 programmers" after 4 years of "development" make you lose your shit. I understand and agree with you. Eromancer just can't deliver a playable game while Shin (from StudioS - aka Studio Shin -), a one-man-army, developed this:
You must be registered to see the links
Alone, he did Fatal Fight in 13 months during 2011/2012. Does the game have excellent graphics? No. Does it have a lot of H-scenes? No, it has 6 female enemies and only 2 sex-scenes (all female enemies are skins of the same model). Does it have the best control responsiveness and hitboxes? No, it's quite average. Is it fun to play? HELL YEAH!
But to Eromancer's supporters, he doesn't count, because he's japanese. And making H-games is hard in the west somehow.
Second, I agree with CourierNPC that the project would need a lot more people to be completed, if the feature/content creep was under control. But it's never been. Eromancer can get hundreds of workers, but PO would keep getting more and more bloated.
An it's always been bloated, from the very beginning. This is Eromancer's "speech" when they stopped working on MatM from September 2018. Quote:
"The goal is to take part of the team and get a very fun and accessible side project built in Unity with a much smaller scope than MATM to you and to retailers ASAP. As it so happens, we currently have the golden opportunity to do this, as Steam has opened its doors to adult content. We all know that the adult game world is fickle, and that these doors of opportunity often close, meaning we have to make this move now. This in no way means we’ll sacrifice quality – it just means we’ll be very busy!
The game will take place in MATM's world, and act as an introduction to MATM's setting, the theme, the denizens of New Babylon, and even some of the characters. It will require MUCH less overhead development time, and what you'll see in this update is from only two weeks spent on pre-visualization."
And only 2 months later, in November 2018, this "much smaller scope" "side project" that they wanted to release "ASAP" already had plans to implement 5 stages out of 7 and 6 different factions. Quote:
"Here are some ideas I have for potential stages. We will select the best 5 (or so) ideas to use for the initial retail release of the game.
- Streets (Splicers)
- Red Light District (Syndicate)
- Rooftops (Police)
- Junkyard (Machines)
- Sewer (Biomonsters)
- Prison (Errythang)
- Biomonster Nest (Biomonsters)
- Splicer HQ (???)
And weapons. He wasted even more time planning and making concept art for weapons! Quote:
"
You must be registered to see the links
. Weapons will be expendable like in other beat-em-up games. This means when a weapon’s ammo is spent or it breaks, you drop it and move on. Weapons can be found either in breakable containers or dropped by enemies that begin with them. Some enemies will actually be able to pick up weapons lying around, and other enemies will have specialized weapons that only they can use.Here are some of the weapon ideas I’m considering:
- Katana
- Handgun
- Uzi
- Machine Gun / Heavy Machine Gun
- Throwing Knife
- Molotov / Grenade
No amount of manpower would ever be able to deliver Eromancer's delusions. He must hire a lead developer capable of saying NO to the uncontrolable feature/content creep before any of his projects can ever get anywhere.
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I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with wanting to "reinvent the wheel" for the beat em up genre but Eromancer is the last person that should be doing it and Unity is quite possibly the WORST engine they could have chosen to do it on. Most open source Beat em up engines are meh at best so wanting to create something new is understandable. Eromancer just isn't competent or reliable enough to be responsible with something like that. Prone to content creep and frequently getting bored with his own projects and instead of letting his team actually do the work in the scope provided he keeps demanding more and keeps demanding perfection out of an engine that can't give you perfection. On top of that instead of focusing on the project at hand he keeps doing this 3D pop culture modeling and AI art bullshit. You are right that he needs someone on his team to tell him no.
- Jul 12, 2017
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Correct me if I'm wrong:
One thing that I noticed now is that I have never heard of Eromancer's programmers' qualifications. What engine have they mastered, how many years of experience working as a coder/programmer, or anything that is relevant to their career (has worked with AA studios before, has interned at a child company of Triple-A studios, etc.) or expertise in some programming language out there (C++, C#, JavaScript, etc.)
Now that you are part of the group, do you have any information on this? Because expertise and experience matter quite a bit and play a big role to suppress people's skepticism so that they know that the programmers know what they're doing.
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Even without you telling me that my question gonna be deflected, yeah, kind of expected it -- Heck, even ignored entirely since that ain't matter that much to Kitty than some asshole trying to fight with facts and logic
Does anyone have the inner circle thingy that just dropped on their patreon? Remembered this thing exists 20 mins ago and saw they did the impossible and updated this lmao