VN Ren'Py Radiant [v0.6.3] [RK Studios]

Nighteyes11 · May 23, 2020

Hammerhiem said:
Comparing Artist is meaningless. You can't rush the creative process.

To Channel my inner geek for a second.

Brandon Sanderson seems to be able to push a high quality Novel every year, while JV Jones struggles to get one out every 5, the finished products for both are Extremely high quality.

The last Harry Potter book was badly edited and no where near the quality of the previous works, and that was due to the author and editors not being brave enough to realise it couldn't make the deadline and push it back.

Quality is more important that Quantity in the long run, but as previously stated, Patreon's model does force the creators into a time battle to avoid looking like milkers. That's a fault of the Model not the Creators.

Jesus I'd completely forgotten about J.V. Jones, it must be 10 years since the last Sword of Shadows book! Thanks for the reminder might just pick these up again.

MrFriendly · May 23, 2020

Nighteyes11 said:
Jesus I'd completely forgotten about J.V. Jones, it must be 10 years since the last Sword of Shadows book! Thanks for the reminder might just pick these up again.

Speaking of Patreon and J.V Jones it turns out she has a patreon page.

Anyway, to stay on topic. Quality and integrity are nice to see regardless of the industry you find it in. However, seeing the attention to quality and integrity to commit to it in games, especially adult games, is a wonderful thing. I'd rather wait 3 months for each update (or clone BD a few hundred times) than see quick updates of poorer quality. Dammed has my respect for how he addressed the whole "milking" discussion, and for making a quality product he is proud of.

Boucherus · May 24, 2020

Really great game so far, I didn't expect to become so emotionally invested! Thank you for avoiding cheesy, unbelievably dialogue and ridiculously unrealistic set up so far. It's nice to discover a game with beautiful graphics and good writing for once, keep up the good work!

BigDaddyDom · May 24, 2020

Dammed said:
You have to also keep in mind that quality varies from game to game... and unless you yourself have dabbled in game development it's not a great idea to claim to know how long things take just based on other games. We could look at Braindrop's WVM and make a comparison to that: but his update speeds are both an anomaly that only some with literally nothing but free time would be able to maintain... and a schedule that would be virtually impossible for many of us. Our own development process, cycle, and renders are completely different to his.

We could look at a game more similar in style to ours... and on average you'll either see a 20 minute update every 2 months or a larger update every 4 months. But let's set aside this notion that comparison can be used to measure "how long updates should take" completely, because something as simple as one's passion to pour every bit of creative energy they have in their body into every single update that comes out can literally add months to this process.

How fast/how slow someone is capable of working can also add time to this process. How much work goes into setting up scenery and characters and individual renders can add time to this process. How much exclusive content is being provided to Patrons can add time to this process. How much the developer engages with their audience and player-base can add time to this process. Does the developer have a family? Kids? Do they work or are they full time? How serious are they about their games story? How focused are they on smooth transitions, finding good/suitable music, making sure their code is stable and organized, how many paths or alternate endings does their game have?

I could literally give you another 100 examples of things that could increase the time required to push out an update.... but assuming that some games taking longer than others automatically means "milking" is an insanely cynical way of looking at the process of development. Perhaps one that even I myself have been guilty of before getting into it and realizing the scope of things.

Finally... using my first game, Polarity as an example... I've literally written enough raw story for that game to produce two full novels, and that is only the first three chapters/isn't accounting for how many chapters I've rewritten or even revisions. For authors, writing one novel can take upwards of three years. This is because they pour their very heart and soul into their work and it's not always as easy as just pressing a button to power on your computer and hammering away at the keys.

Creativity requires a lot of inspiration, motivation, planning, stress, etc. And those who take their time to make sure they are at the peak of said creativity whenever they're working on their games or projects? You will see a noticeable difference in their work when compared to others.

I can't express enough how easy it would be for me to just throw together an "acceptable" 45 minute update if I just sat down and rattled off whatever came to mind... and it is very clear in this industry that a lot of developers do that using the justification that "it's just a porn game." If you want developers to break that norm, and to raise the bar/create bigger and better games you have to allow some wiggle room. Sitting around with a stopwatch measuring one's consistency vs. other developers will only create undue stress and anxiety for those of us who refuse to sacrifice quality for the sake of time.

A perspective some seem to not consider is that we actually benefit monetarily every single time we put out a new update... because said updates get us new players and in-turn, more financial backers... so the concept of "milking" is a bit flawed. If you ask me, milking is pushing out updates as fast as humanly possible so that you make it back to the top of Latest Updates here on F95Zone... not sitting glued to the PC several hours of each day because you'd rather work your ass off for months on end to deliver something that is truly good/you're truly happy with.

So yeah. I can't speak for everyone... but this is at least how I feel about it/how I look at it. And let's just cast aside the notion right away that I personally am milking anything. I of course know that's not what you were implying, BigDaddyDom - and I know you were just speaking generally... but at the very least I personally can guarantee you guys that since quitting my job I have sat at this computer for upwards of 300 hours... and my last day was only like three or so weeks ago.

It consumes the vast majority of every single one of my days and I take very few breaks. So yeah, no milking going on over on this end. Fun fact: Radiant is a nearly completed story if we just look at the first draft alone... it is roughly the size of 6 full novels already and will be completely rewritten at least two more times before this game is completed.

The same applies to Polarity. Do what you will with that information... but that's just the way I work because game development is my passion and I plan to do it right for years to come... even at the expense of my own income if that's what it takes... and even if people (incorrectly) end up believing that I'm just milking or taking advantage. By the way BigDaddyD, no disrespect taken! Just figured I'd try to give you a detailed response for the sake of transparency.

Thanks for the response. I hear what you're saying, but I still feel the way I do about the Patreon system though. I think lots of us have supported devs who delayed longer than reasonable (even with all the things you mentioned considered), or who ended up abandoning the game completely. When I say "milker" I'm referring to the ones that actually admit they're already done but choose to hold the update a lot longer because they decided to focus on something else or got anal about something that didn't necessarily need to be worked on. Or who keep giving update deadlines that they rarely meet. Again though, I didn't actually say you or Alorth are milkers.

I get it, some devs like yourself prefer to take your time because of the pride you have in your work. You can see from Chapter 1 and how you interact on here that you are very passionate about what you do. There's an unnamed game developer whose writing went to absolute dog5hit after he got big haha, so that is not good either. I'm psyched for Radiant in large part because of the writing (also of course Alorth's awesome renders/animations). Writing and creating games is definitely an art and has it's own unique process.

My issue is with the Patreon system. Like you said, authors and screenwriters can take years to finish a novel or a screenplay, because that's their process, and they often want to "get it just right." The thing with that is that consumers get to decide whether they want to pay for that book or watch that movie once it's done, not while it's being written. They get to decide whether whatever money it costs is worth it. With Patreon you don't even know what you're paying for! That's why now I'll only support once I see if each update is worth the months paid. Honestly, I'd rather just pay for a whole game all at once, and it would probably be cheaper too ha ha.

So the whole milking thing becomes an issue when the update doesn't seem to justify the time taken, or when devs regularly don't meet deadlines they set. I know we don't know what it's like for the devs behind the scenes, so when I say time justified I'm talking about from a consumer perspective. Is my 3 months of patronage worth it for me? This will differ for everyone though.

To use Radiant as an example again, I loved what I saw in Chapter 1, and it's already one of my favorite games. But at 3 month updates it could be like 9-12 months before I even get to see my fav character Olivia in a good sex scene haha. Do I want to pay for all that time for just the possibility that it might happen? And if you're not a patron, you don't even get the hints or sneak peaks of what to expect that might help me decide whether I want to become a patron! haha. Outside the Patreon system we normally get to decide what to buy and when. This is what I mean when I say some devs take advantage when they know they got people hooked. Of course we can always cut support, but people don't want to because they're hooked!

Anyway again I'm not talking about you guys, but the system. Glad to hear you're not that type to take advantage. I look forward to Chapter 2.

Real Kreten · May 24, 2020

Dammed said:
I go based on the bare minimum of 40,000 words... but keep in mind that 40k would be considered on the "smaller end" (I believe the Harry Potter novels are much larger). Also keep in mind that while the first draft of the stories are written well ahead of time, neither are fully completed just yet.

My favourite novel has 4 410 036 words, but the Wheel of Time is not exactly a etalon of the length of a novel.

patachoucs · May 24, 2020

Real Kreten said:
My favourite novel has 4 410 036 words, but the Wheel of Time is not exactly a etalon of the length of a novel.

You sir have great taste ! The Wheel of Time is a masterpiece.

KinkierThanThou · May 24, 2020

More a "Chronicles of Amber" guy myself, but to each their own.

Deleted member 89670 · May 24, 2020

Weeeeell.. This game quickly became one of my favourites based on the stuff in 0.1.2. Looking very much forward to future updates.

AT83 · May 24, 2020

Just finished 1.2. Really enjoyed it. Writing is better than expected and I am excited to see how the choices play out. Will definitely be following this one.

Had a bit of a laugh at the background in Olivia's room. Apparently your house is in the middle of a baseball field

SrRK · May 24, 2020

BigDaddyDom said:
Thanks for the response. I hear what you're saying, but I still feel the way I do about the Patreon system though. I think lots of us have supported devs who delayed longer than reasonable (even with all the things you mentioned considered), or who ended up abandoning the game completely. When I say "milker" I'm referring to the ones that actually admit they're already done but choose to hold the update a lot longer because they decided to focus on something else or got anal about something that didn't necessarily need to be worked on. Or who keep giving update deadlines that they rarely meet. Again though, I didn't actually say you or Alorth are milkers.

I get it, some devs like yourself prefer to take your time because of the pride you have in your work. You can see from Chapter 1 and how you interact on here that you are very passionate about what you do. There's an unnamed game developer whose writing went to absolute dog5hit after he got big haha, so that is not good either. I'm psyched for Radiant in large part because of the writing (also of course Alorth's awesome renders/animations). Writing and creating games is definitely an art and has it's own unique process.

My issue is with the Patreon system. Like you said, authors and screenwriters can take years to finish a novel or a screenplay, because that's their process, and they often want to "get it just right." The thing with that is that consumers get to decide whether they want to pay for that book or watch that movie once it's done, not while it's being written. They get to decide whether whatever money it costs is worth it. With Patreon you don't even know what you're paying for! That's why now I'll only support once I see if each update is worth the months paid. Honestly, I'd rather just pay for a whole game all at once, and it would probably be cheaper too ha ha.

So the whole milking thing becomes an issue when the update doesn't seem to justify the time taken, or when devs regularly don't meet deadlines they set. I know we don't know what it's like for the devs behind the scenes, so when I say time justified I'm talking about from a consumer perspective. Is my 3 months of patronage worth it for me? This will differ for everyone though.

To use Radiant as an example again, I loved what I saw in Chapter 1, and it's already one of my favorite games. But at 3 month updates it could be like 9-12 months before I even get to see my fav character Olivia in a good sex scene haha. Do I want to pay for all that time for just the possibility that it might happen? And if you're not a patron, you don't even get the hints or sneak peaks of what to expect that might help me decide whether I want to become a patron! haha. Outside the Patreon system we normally get to decide what to buy and when. This is what I mean when I say some devs take advantage when they know they got people hooked. Of course we can always cut support, but people don't want to because they're hooked!

Anyway again I'm not talking about you guys, but the system. Glad to hear you're not that type to take advantage. I look forward to Chapter 2.

Those are some really great points... especially in regards to people getting hooked. Or hell, adding to that even... people don't want to feel like they're missing out or feel "out of the loop" which I think is another big motivating factor for patrons to remain patrons... and there are definitely developers out there who would take advantage of this model knowing that at the end of the day they're going to get paid regardless.

To this I say... and this goes for everyone, especially those supporting my (or mine and Alorth's) games:

Do not feel obligated to consistently pledge every month... no matter how convenient or tempting. The beauty of Patreon, setting aside its flaws... is that it is a "pay anytime and unpledge when you want" system. In other words supporters should try to weigh the value of what they're pledging for against the money they've spent. If you're someone who pledges mainly just for game downloads... wait until the update is ready and then pledge for that month only. If you're someone who pledges for the tier-benefits and Patreon community aspect... consider that dropping your pledge for a few months won't mean missing out on anything as the content will still be there when you get back.

With all of that said... I do think for many patrons it is simply about loyalty. They see a creator/developer they like and they want to support the continued development of that person's games... so they pledge knowing that they're making a contribution towards allowing this developer to make a living doing what he/she does... and that's okay too. So long as people know what they're paying for and they're not doing it because they feel like they have to, I see nothing wrong with it (unless they're outright being taken advantage of). I personally wouldn't have nearly as much time to do this if not for patrons... so I have a great respect for the system because it allows this/lets creators do what they love.

BigDaddyDom · May 25, 2020

Dammed said:
Those are some really great points... especially in regards to people getting hooked. Or hell, adding to that even... people don't want to feel like they're missing out or feel "out of the loop" which I think is another big motivating factor for patrons to remain patrons... and there are definitely developers out there who would take advantage of this model knowing that at the end of the day they're going to get paid regardless.

To this I say... and this goes for everyone, especially those supporting my (or mine and Alorth's) games:

Do not feel obligated to consistently pledge every month... no matter how convenient or tempting. The beauty of Patreon, setting aside its flaws... is that it is a "pay anytime and unpledge when you want" system. In other words supporters should try to weigh the value of what they're pledging for against the money they've spent. If you're someone who pledges mainly just for game downloads... wait until the update is ready and then pledge for that month only. If you're someone who pledges for the tier-benefits and Patreon community aspect... consider that dropping your pledge for a few months won't mean missing out on anything as the content will still be there when you get back.

With all of that said... I do think for many patrons it is simply about loyalty. They see a creator/developer they like and they want to support the continued development of that person's games... so they pledge knowing that they're making a contribution towards allowing this developer to make a living doing what he/she does... and that's okay too. So long as people know what they're paying for and they're not doing it because they feel like they have to, I see nothing wrong with it (unless they're outright being taken advantage of). I personally wouldn't have nearly as much time to do this if not for patrons... so I have a great respect for the system because it allows this/lets creators do what they love.

That makes a lot of sense. thank for your perspective and keep up the good work!

ghost336 · May 26, 2020

This is going to be one of the greatest games I've seen, so far its already an amazing story and its just started will be watching and looking forward to enjoying every single update.

GooberLoser · May 26, 2020

damn this is good

Nagash477 · May 26, 2020

Yep BD is our hero, he works 11-15h per day and we have 150+ renders per 1 week(this is 1-2 month working for other gamedevelopers)

CHAD-MAN · May 26, 2020

So... any news about an update? Its been a while already

I'll take some sort of teaser pics aswell

atlas114 · May 26, 2020

Naughtykutchy said:
So... any news about an update? Its been a while already I'll take some sort of teaser pics aswell

if you look 2 pages past, there was a status update from Patreon posted here:

https://f95zone.to/threads/radiant-v0-1-2-rk-studios.49572/page-96#post-3527021

CHAD-MAN · May 26, 2020

atlas114 said:
if you look 2 pages past, there was a status update from Patreon posted here:

https://f95zone.to/threads/radiant-v0-1-2-rk-studios.49572/page-96#post-3527021

Many thanks! I swear, this site could use a tab for patreon updates

Hellooou · May 27, 2020

I am deeply conflicted. I expected a fun little porn game, not my heart being crushed! Anyways, from now on, it is my sole purpose to guarantee that these girls grow up with a loving father. And I don't mean that the 'cest way. I would do anything for Gracie, why did she have to leave us? Why couldn't I have woken up when she stood at my bed?
It broke me, hearing (or reading) her being so desperate for me to wake up. And her father... I don't even dare to imagine what Gracie probably had to endure for being pregnant.
I hate this game so much for giving Gracie to me and before I even could fully realize what I had in her, it took her away. And I hope desperately that this game gets a "loving father who doesn't fuck his kids"-route because I couldn't deal with it if I did molest even one of them. After all, they are everything that's left from Gracie...

MrFriendly · May 27, 2020

Hellooou said:
And I hope desperately that this game gets a "loving father who doesn't fuck his kids"-route because I couldn't deal with it if I did molest even one of them. After all, they are everything that's left from Gracie...

I'm not alone! That's absolutely how I felt! If this game did allow me to have just a purely paternal relationship with the girls I would be so freaking happy. Unfortunately, though the game started amazingly I don't know that I will want to continue if I am required to have sex with the three girls. I'd rather screw the woman we just hired. Ah well, "hope is pouting in advance" so I am not going to start hoping.

darth_hiruma · May 27, 2020

MrFriendly said:
I'm not alone! That's absolutely how I felt! If this game did allow me to have just a purely paternal relationship with the girls I would be so freaking happy. Unfortunately, though the game started amazingly I don't know that I will want to continue if I am required to have sex with the three girls. I'd rather screw the woman we just hired. Ah well, "hope is pouting in advance" so I am not going to start hoping.

On the one hand, they're so adorable you want to protect. On the other hand, I'm a man and I can't resist cute girls like them.

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