VN Ren'Py Radiant [v0.6.3] [RK Studios]

[darth_hiruma]

But I've supported other devs before on Patreon and they just dragged on and delayed updates.

Some dev really milk us but some got legit reasons to delay. In Dammed and Alorth defense, both got many projects in their hands. So a bit delay is understandable.

 

[SrRK]

Eh, that's what they always say. But if you look at SirD's last update they've only done writing and coding. So they haven't even started renders yet. Getting better equipment won't speed up the process as promised if they keep taking their time "trying to make everything perfect."

This is the first game I've played of SirD and Alorth so I have to wait and see if they're milkers. But I've supported other devs before on Patreon and they just dragged on and delayed updates. This is why I'm not actually a fan of the Patreon system because devs are literally incentivized to update slow. why work faster to finish the project when you're getting paid anyway? People will keep giving money because they want to see what happens next and because of promises that updates will be faster with more money even when theyre not.

Lets use Radiant as an example, if patrons stay on the full year they're going to make $72000. If they're only updating every 3 months theyre getting about $18000 an update! imagine how much people at regular jobs have to actually work to make that much money. That better be a huge update. IMO 3 months is too long to take between updates especially when delays are due to trying to "make things perfect."

This is no disrepect to SirD or Alorth specifically, because the whole Patreon system is like this and theres lots of devs taking advantage. Still I'll wait until at least the next update before I decide whether to become a patron. Another month is a long time though

You have to also keep in mind that quality varies from game to game... and unless you yourself have dabbled in game development it's not a great idea to claim to know how long things take just based on other games. We could look at Braindrop's WVM and make a comparison to that: but his update speeds are both an anomaly that only some with literally nothing but free time would be able to maintain... and a schedule that would be virtually impossible for many of us. Our own development process, cycle, and renders are completely different to his.

We could look at a game more similar in style to ours... and on average you'll either see a 20 minute update every 2 months or a larger update every 4 months. But let's set aside this notion that comparison can be used to measure "how long updates should take" completely, because something as simple as one's passion to pour every bit of creative energy they have in their body into every single update that comes out can literally add months to this process.

How fast/how slow someone is capable of working can also add time to this process. How much work goes into setting up scenery and characters and individual renders can add time to this process. How much exclusive content is being provided to Patrons can add time to this process. How much the developer engages with their audience and player-base can add time to this process. Does the developer have a family? Kids? Do they work or are they full time? How serious are they about their games story? How focused are they on smooth transitions, finding good/suitable music, making sure their code is stable and organized, how many paths or alternate endings does their game have?

I could literally give you another 100 examples of things that could increase the time required to push out an update.... but assuming that some games taking longer than others automatically means "milking" is an insanely cynical way of looking at the process of development. Perhaps one that even I myself have been guilty of before getting into it and realizing the scope of things.

Finally... using my first game, Polarity as an example... I've literally written enough raw story for that game to produce two full novels, and that is only the first three chapters/isn't accounting for how many chapters I've rewritten or even revisions. For authors, writing one novel can take upwards of three years. This is because they pour their very heart and soul into their work and it's not always as easy as just pressing a button to power on your computer and hammering away at the keys.

Creativity requires a lot of inspiration, motivation, planning, stress, etc. And those who take their time to make sure they are at the peak of said creativity whenever they're working on their games or projects? You will see a noticeable difference in their work when compared to others.

I can't express enough how easy it would be for me to just throw together an "acceptable" 45 minute update if I just sat down and rattled off whatever came to mind... and it is very clear in this industry that a lot of developers do that using the justification that "it's just a porn game." If you want developers to break that norm, and to raise the bar/create bigger and better games you have to allow some wiggle room. Sitting around with a stopwatch measuring one's consistency vs. other developers will only create undue stress and anxiety for those of us who refuse to sacrifice quality for the sake of time.

A perspective some seem to not consider is that we actually benefit monetarily every single time we put out a new update... because said updates get us new players and in-turn, more financial backers... so the concept of "milking" is a bit flawed. If you ask me, milking is pushing out updates as fast as humanly possible so that you make it back to the top of Latest Updates here on F95Zone... not sitting glued to the PC several hours of each day because you'd rather work your ass off for months on end to deliver something that is truly good/you're truly happy with.

So yeah. I can't speak for everyone... but this is at least how I feel about it/how I look at it. And let's just cast aside the notion right away that I personally am milking anything. I of course know that's not what you were implying, BigDaddyDom - and I know you were just speaking generally... but at the very least I personally can guarantee you guys that since quitting my job I have sat at this computer for upwards of 300 hours... and my last day was only like three or so weeks ago.

It consumes the vast majority of every single one of my days and I take very few breaks. So yeah, no milking going on over on this end. Fun fact: Radiant is a nearly completed story if we just look at the first draft alone... it is roughly the size of 6 full novels already and will be completely rewritten at least two more times before this game is completed.

The same applies to Polarity. Do what you will with that information... but that's just the way I work because game development is my passion and I plan to do it right for years to come... even at the expense of my own income if that's what it takes... and even if people (incorrectly) end up believing that I'm just milking or taking advantage. By the way BigDaddyD, no disrespect taken! Just figured I'd try to give you a detailed response for the sake of transparency.

 

[darth_hiruma]

Do what you will with that information...

 

[treyW77]

Hey D -- since you cannot seem to respond on Pat or on your other game forum like i said i have nothing against you in terms of your work i love your work i just wish you would be a little more open with your lines of communication.

I love both this game and polarity but i am asking you to please be more open to giving updates specially when you set a deadline and missed it.

Thx for your hard work and i am still open to continue to support you but i would like to see the communication be better plain and simple.

 

[KinkierThanThou]

You have to also keep in mind that quality varies from game to game... and unless you yourself have dabbled in game development it's not a great idea to claim to know how long things take just based on other games. We could look at @Braindrop's WVM and make a comparison to that: but his update speeds are both an anomaly that only someone with literally nothing but free time would be able to maintain... and a schedule that would be virtually impossible for many of us. Our own development process, cycle, and renders are completely different to his.

We could look at a game more similar in style to ours... and on average you'll either see a 20 minute update every 2 months or a larger update every 4 months. But let's set aside this notion that comparison can be used to measure "how long updates should take" completely, because something as simple as one's passion to pour every bit of creative energy they have in their body into every single update that comes out can literally add months to this process.

How fast/how slow someone is capable of working can also add time to this process. How much work goes into setting up scenery and characters and individual renders can add time to this process. How much exclusive content is being provided to Patrons can add time to this process. How much the developer engages with their audience and player-base can add time to this process. Does the developer have a family? Kids? Do they work or are they full time? How serious are they about their games story? How focused are they on smooth transitions, finding good/suitable music, making sure their code is stable and organized, how many paths or alternate endings does their game have?

I could literally give you another 100 examples of things that could increase the time required to push out an update.... but assuming that some games taking longer than others automatically means "milking" is an insanely cynical way of looking at the process of development. Perhaps one that even I myself have been guilty of before getting into it and realizing the scope of things.

Finally... using my first game, Polarity as an example... I've literally written enough raw story for that game to produce two full novels, and that is only the first three chapters/isn't accounting for how many chapters I've rewritten or even revisions. For authors, writing one novel can take upwards of three years. This is because they pour their very heart and soul into their work and it's not always as easy as just pressing a button to power on your computer and hammering away at the keys.

Creativity requires a lot of inspiration, motivation, planning, stress, etc. And those who take their time to make sure they are at the peak of said creativity whenever they're working on their games or projects? You will see a noticeable difference in their work when compared to others.

I can't express enough how easy it would be for me to just throw together an "acceptable" 45 minute update if I just sat down and rattled off whatever came to mind... and it is very clear in this industry that a lot of developers do that using the justification that "it's just a porn game." If you want developers to break that norm, and to raise the bar/create bigger and better games you have to allow some wiggle room. Sitting around with a stopwatch measuring one's consistency vs. other developers will only create undue stress and anxiety for those of us who refuse to sacrifice quality for the sake of time.

A perspective some seem to not consider is that we actually benefit monetarily every single time we put out a new update... because said updates get us new players and in-turn, more financial backers... so the concept of "milking" is a bit flawed. If you ask me, milking is pushing out updates as fast as humanly possible so that you make it back to the top of Latest Updates here on F95Zone... not sitting glued to the PC several hours of each day because you'd rather work your ass off for months on end to deliver something that is truly good/you're truly happy with.

So yeah. I can't speak for everyone... but this is at least how I feel about it/how I look at it. And let's just cast aside the notion right away that I personally am milking anything. I of course know that's not what you were implying, BigDaddyDom - and I know you were just speaking generally... but at the very least I personally can guarantee you guys that since quitting my job I have sat at this computer for upwards of 300 hours... and my last day was only like three or so weeks ago.

It consumes the vast majority of every single one of my days and I take very few breaks. So yeah, no milking going on over on this end. Fun fact: Radiant is a nearly completed story if we just look at the first draft alone... it is roughly the size of 6 full novels already and will be completely rewritten at least two more times before this game is completed.

The same applies to Polarity. Do what you will with that information... but that's just the way I work because game development is my passion and I plan to do it right for years to come... even at the expense of my own income if that's what it takes... and even if people (incorrectly) end up believing that I'm just milking or taking advantage.

I agree with most of what you say here, but if you have the audacity to name drop a fellow game developer than the least you can do is give him the common courtesy of properly tagging him. The name drop that is Braindrop that is.

 

[SrRK]

I agree with most of what you say here, but if you have the audacity to name drop a fellow game developer than the least you can do is give him the common courtesy of properly tagging him. The name drop that is Braindrop that is.

I don't see any valid reason to bother him with a tag simply because he was mentioned in passing. We see each other all the time over on Discord and I'm also 100% certain he'd agree with me that he is incredibly fast with his updates compared to most of us. But uh... thanks?

 

[Braindrop]

I have been summoned and I whole heartily agree with everything Dammed said.

Edit: While I'm here I'd also like to mention I'm very happy to see SirD and Alorth succeeding with this game. They've both been real cool with me and I hope they continue to hit all their goals.
Keep pushing the scene you two. <3

 

[Ayhsel]

it is roughly the size of 6 full novels already and will be completely rewritten at least two more times before this game is completed.

Just to get a rough idea of how long the story is.. what is for you a "standard unit" of a novel? Just take Harry Potter series, for example, where the first is a third in size compared to the last ones. And these are just very simple children's novels. Which implies in general variance can be huge. This simple fact tells me I need more information to grasp how long are we talking about when speaking about Radiant.

 

[SrRK]

I have been summoned and I whole heartily agree with everything Dammed said.

The trap has been set. Check his pockets for that miracle substance that allows him to crank out solid, high quality game updates in record time.

Just to get an idea a rough idea of how long the story is.. what is for you a "standard unit" of a novel. Just take Harry Potter series, for example, where the first is a third in size compared to the last ones. This simple fact tells me I need more information to grasp how long are we talking about.

I go based on the bare minimum of 40,000 words... but keep in mind that 40k would be considered on the "smaller end" (I believe the Harry Potter novels are much larger). Also keep in mind that while the first draft of the stories are written well ahead of time, neither are fully completed just yet.

 

[HoboCop86]

The trap has been set. Check his pockets for that miracle substance that allows him to crank out solid, high quality game updates in record time.

The secret is to

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[Ayhsel]

I go based on the bare minimum of 40,000 words... but keep in mind that 40k would be considered on the "smaller end" (I believe the Harry Potter novels are much larger). Also keep in mind that while the first draft of the stories are written well ahead of time, neither are fully completed just yet.

A random fact for comparison's sake: Harry Potter and The Philosopher's Stone is 76,944 words according to google.

 

[SrRK]

The secret is to

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[KinkierThanThou]

I don't see any valid reason to bother him with a tag simply because he was mentioned in passing. We see each other all the time over on Discord and I'm also 100% certain he'd agree with me that he is incredibly fast with his updates compared to most of us. But uh... thanks?

I don't develop games, so I have no idea how all of y'all creators hang out. For all I know you have a bar like an episode of Cheers or sumthing. Where everyone knows your name? And I leave it up to you all to figure out amongst themselves who is the Sam Malone and who is the Frasier Crane.

And like I said I agreed with most of what you said. I just didn't like some of the wording.

his update speeds are both an anomaly that only someone with literally nothing but free time would be able to maintain

You later explained the cordial relationship you have with BD, but you can surely understand that to someone who is a big fan of WVM and only a developing fan of Radiant (and who has no knowledge of your previous work), this might come off as a flippant "some of us HAVE a life, ya know?" kind of comment.

Like I have seen his work ethic, his frequency of updates and his willingness to communicate and I love him for it, so yeah, I got a little defensive. It's just because I love his work. And who knows, we might get to that point as well.

Time will tell if you turn out the Diane Chambers or the Carla Tortelli of VN's.

 

[Hammerhiem]

Comparing Artist is meaningless. You can't rush the creative process.

To Channel my inner geek for a second.

Brandon Sanderson seems to be able to push a high quality Novel every year, while JV Jones struggles to get one out every 5, the finished products for both are Extremely high quality.

The last Harry Potter book was badly edited and no where near the quality of the previous works, and that was due to the author and editors not being brave enough to realise it couldn't make the deadline and push it back.

Quality is more important that Quantity in the long run, but as previously stated, Patreon's model does force the creators into a time battle to avoid looking like milkers. That's a fault of the Model not the Creators.

 

[SrRK]

You later explained the cordial relationship you have with BD, but you can surely understand that to someone who is a big fan of WVM and only a developing fan of Radiant (and who has no knowledge of your previous work), this might come off as a flippant "some of us HAVE a life, ya know?" kind of comment.

Like I have seen his work ethic, his frequency of updates and his willingness to communicate and I love him for it, so yeah, I got a little defensive. It's just because I love his work. And who knows, we might get to that point as well.

Time will tell if you turn out the Diane Chambers or the Carla Tortelli of VN's.

WVM is a high quality game despite insanely fast updates, so I think we can be reasonably sure that BD is a workhorse who spends a LOT of time at his PC... likely more than all of us. Don't worry though, I wasn't implying that he doesn't have a life (though I can see why it would come off that way-- but I was more of the mind that if I tried to match his update speeds I would no longer have a life. Odds are he's just an exceptionally fast worker). I think it's pretty damn impressive / it was more meant as a complimentary thing. Can't knock a guy for working his ass off.

That said my entire point of bringing BD up was to show why we should not compare, not to make some sort of flippant comparison.

 

[KinkierThanThou]

WVM is a high quality game despite insanely fast updates, so I think we can be reasonably sure that BD is a workhorse who spends a LOT of time at his PC... likely more than all of us. Don't worry though, I wasn't implying that he doesn't have a life... in fact I think it's pretty damn impressive / it was more meant as a complimentary thing. Can't knock a guy for working his ass off.

That said my entire point of bringing BD up was to show why we should not compare, not to make some sort of flippant comparison.

Hey thanks for clarifying, and really, I meant no bad blood.

 

[SrRK]

Wow, fanboys everywhere.

As a fanboy I see nothing wrong with this.

 

[darth_hiruma]

Quality is more important that Quantity in the long run, but as previously stated, Patreon's model does force the creators into a time battle to avoid looking like milkers. That's a fault of the Model not the Creators.

More quantity can be milker if the content is shitty. I don't mind waiting just don't make me wait half a year and give me 30 mins content without good reasons.

 

[TheSidewinder]

The trap has been set. Check his pockets for that miracle substance that allows him to crank out solid, high quality game updates in record time.

Umm.... cocaine?
cough

 

[MrFriendly]

You have to also keep in mind that quality varies from game to game... and unless you yourself have dabbled in game development it's not a great idea to claim to know how long things take just based on other games. We could look at Braindrop's WVM and make a comparison to that: but his update speeds are both an anomaly that only some with literally nothing but free time would be able to maintain... and a schedule that would be virtually impossible for many of us. Our own development process, cycle, and renders are completely different to his.

We could look at a game more similar in style to ours... and on average you'll either see a 20 minute update every 2 months or a larger update every 4 months. But let's set aside this notion that comparison can be used to measure "how long updates should take" completely, because something as simple as one's passion to pour every bit of creative energy they have in their body into every single update that comes out can literally add months to this process.

How fast/how slow someone is capable of working can also add time to this process. How much work goes into setting up scenery and characters and individual renders can add time to this process. How much exclusive content is being provided to Patrons can add time to this process. How much the developer engages with their audience and player-base can add time to this process. Does the developer have a family? Kids? Do they work or are they full time? How serious are they about their games story? How focused are they on smooth transitions, finding good/suitable music, making sure their code is stable and organized, how many paths or alternate endings does their game have?

I could literally give you another 100 examples of things that could increase the time required to push out an update.... but assuming that some games taking longer than others automatically means "milking" is an insanely cynical way of looking at the process of development. Perhaps one that even I myself have been guilty of before getting into it and realizing the scope of things.

Finally... using my first game, Polarity as an example... I've literally written enough raw story for that game to produce two full novels, and that is only the first three chapters/isn't accounting for how many chapters I've rewritten or even revisions. For authors, writing one novel can take upwards of three years. This is because they pour their very heart and soul into their work and it's not always as easy as just pressing a button to power on your computer and hammering away at the keys.

Creativity requires a lot of inspiration, motivation, planning, stress, etc. And those who take their time to make sure they are at the peak of said creativity whenever they're working on their games or projects? You will see a noticeable difference in their work when compared to others.

I can't express enough how easy it would be for me to just throw together an "acceptable" 45 minute update if I just sat down and rattled off whatever came to mind... and it is very clear in this industry that a lot of developers do that using the justification that "it's just a porn game." If you want developers to break that norm, and to raise the bar/create bigger and better games you have to allow some wiggle room. Sitting around with a stopwatch measuring one's consistency vs. other developers will only create undue stress and anxiety for those of us who refuse to sacrifice quality for the sake of time.

A perspective some seem to not consider is that we actually benefit monetarily every single time we put out a new update... because said updates get us new players and in-turn, more financial backers... so the concept of "milking" is a bit flawed. If you ask me, milking is pushing out updates as fast as humanly possible so that you make it back to the top of Latest Updates here on F95Zone... not sitting glued to the PC several hours of each day because you'd rather work your ass off for months on end to deliver something that is truly good/you're truly happy with.

So yeah. I can't speak for everyone... but this is at least how I feel about it/how I look at it. And let's just cast aside the notion right away that I personally am milking anything. I of course know that's not what you were implying, BigDaddyDom - and I know you were just speaking generally... but at the very least I personally can guarantee you guys that since quitting my job I have sat at this computer for upwards of 300 hours... and my last day was only like three or so weeks ago.

It consumes the vast majority of every single one of my days and I take very few breaks. So yeah, no milking going on over on this end. Fun fact: Radiant is a nearly completed story if we just look at the first draft alone... it is roughly the size of 6 full novels already and will be completely rewritten at least two more times before this game is completed.

The same applies to Polarity. Do what you will with that information... but that's just the way I work because game development is my passion and I plan to do it right for years to come... even at the expense of my own income if that's what it takes... and even if people (incorrectly) end up believing that I'm just milking or taking advantage. By the way BigDaddyD, no disrespect taken! Just figured I'd try to give you a detailed response for the sake of transparency.

I love your explanation, so many people would have reacted in a different manner. It gives us a peek behind your development and general knowledge about how creativity is actually hard work (so few people seem to understand that). Thank you.