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Arigon

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Caine is first murder, Lilith is also cursed she dont have generation simple put 0 :) associated with Lucifer and other demons Caine will not have powers without Lilith Blood when he drink from her, angel come to him and curse him even more then Caine is Reborn again like true Damned Vampire :) generation mean nothing even demons can lower your gen if you make deal with them many vampires are done that but with great cost... from the beginning she try to kill him because of betrayal and he hide from her in depths of earth Bali Clan as a whole are demon worshipers and they are not born from Caine but from Nargal demon and Molock or the Unnamed... as for the players in Rebirth Lilith is Bloody Queen her path is Crimson road or path of Blood when she always call you to walk with her when you drink or dream of her, story mixed with VTM and real Occult. Rebirth is Lilith's path story. Caine come to Lilith seeking shelter he drink her blood and Caine become what is today in story of VTM, she teaches him blood bond him with her blood he discovers everything and again betrayal :) his curse is only to kill and his children kill each other (Beast) as for Caine curse he is in the beginning only walking copse with hunger to kill nothing more :)
I love the Lilith Heresy

I also subscribe to the more typical or archetypical genesis of vampirism.


For all the back and forth of what gen, what clan and so on are all the vamps in here. Can we simple agree to disagree?:p
It is interesting to read (to some extend) your theorie, who are all based on forbidden source material. But at some point, well...

For what I believe we know, is that Rebirth is strongly influenced from obvious source material. But we all don't know if it follow it to a T or not.
For the whole gen apsect nothing in the game gives a hint if it is following this concept (other than the strongly influence from source material).
For the clans, there is more to it. We have the Nos, some they call them "Wolf boys" and it wouldn't be a suprise if they are others. Yet without the Nos, the aren't, I think, any strong connection to the source material.

For story reasons, I would much dislike, if some overpowered fractions have us on their string and all thing we do is orchestrate and we are only front-seat passenger.
I also wouldn't like if the MC would rise to an overpower being so he could do and kill anybody with a single glance of him.
So far the VN hasn't disappoint me and it looks that the MC have a hand in his own future, but also have his obstacle to overcome.

Yet, in contrast to Ayhsel, I do believe that we are a piece on a big chessboard, but with more than only two player. Perhaps someday the MC will rise to be one of the player and not one of the piece.

And for the sex, I do support Arigon explanation. Most sex would be here between a human (thrall or not) and other humans or vampire, but not inbetween vampire. Also most likely it is more a reward/pleasure for the humans than the vampire.


No, this month no blood. Next update is next month.
Yeah I apologize about the theory crafting about all of the vampire lineage and generation and such. I get my intellectual rocks off on doing this in a number of games and movies and such. I will try and go light on it in this thread and move my more theoretical rambles to the lore thread


Ayhsel said at one point or another that he would let vision girl suck him bone dry or some such. I tend to agree lol


That said, just remember all you wonderful Rebirthers, Sex is between consenting human adults. Vampires have something better!!!!!
Peace
 
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Babalon

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and the most funny part about curse of god mages discover how to undone god curse hahah, or even make synthetic blood of first vampire and to have limitless power with manipulation of blood :D path of blood is powerful path and there will be many new role-play stories :p. There will be many self-made vampires but it's not the first time...
 
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Arigon

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Blood magic is not exclusive to vampires of any background or genre. Mage has always been a problem for the forbidden source information. The whole question of " Should I transform that mega powerful vampire into a lawn chair just because according to the rules I can? " is the reason most of the games I have run, and played in for the last 30 years have ignored Mage except for Mage games.
Hell the Reborn aka Mummies are fricking powerful enough without going full Mage.

Plus there is zero indication that the dev is looking at the god powers of Mage in this AVN. I think we should keep it that way.
 

Arigon

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So,,,,,,,, future castings of the Nordic Blood Bone Rune Stones........

MC will turn out to be the toughest non elder in the city. Probably tougher than most elders because most vampires think they have forever and have a superiority complex.
Due to Fabian's and Calisto's support, MC will almost certainly have a position of prestige which will equal if not eclipse most of the elders, and of course Sharon's tiny holding of Scottsville.

Now on that topic, I think Merrick is digging through the Nos site that is buried near the hospital where the feral Nos-Wight was roosting. Probably all kinds of Antique computer goodies for him to attempt to wake up and modernize, and frankly he saw to his mission for Markus, and helped out on the feral Nos, and likely found the Nos stronghold, so he probably has instructions to go radio silence just to piss off Marcius. With a major Nos stronghold in her domain, Sharon will be welcoming more and more of the Nos to join her domain. She might even begin plans to expand it to a reasonably large and important burb of the city. I think initially, she will select the MC as her Sheriff, and he will perform far above average for his age, which will of course cause all kinds crazy speculation about just who he is connected to.

So in order to deal with the southern Archon, and the unsanctioned blood feud that Andrew has with him, it can only legitimately be handled one of a few ways.
1: Sharon could challenge him to a blood duel, which she is not a fighter, but could name a champion since she is an archon. Her logical choice would be Andrew. Andrew has spent 50ish years as a ghoul, and that means it is conceivable that he has a decent blood pool available to boost attributes and heal as needed. He also has had time to add to his discipline repertoire. Most ghouls/thralls start with Potence 1, which basically is like taking a normal human and doubling their strength. For many reasons that I can point out, Sharon is most likely a Ventrue. Ventrue are aristocratic, which she certainly has the feeling of, she calls Eloise one of us, which Eloise objects to as Sharon is not a hound, not old and aristocratic enough, and asked her to train a mongrel (MC). So there is little doubt based on Eloise behavior and claimed kinship that they are both Ventrue.
2: That means Andrew, if he has been a good boy practicing and learning all he can, likely has Fortitude in addition to potence, and possibly some of the presence and a touch of domination. He has demonstrated his physical traits, which do not include hyper speed which would make Toreador unlikely for Sharon. His quick recovery from the Nos attack points to some resilience in his background.
Problem with all this is while Andrew may be driven, and angry enough, with a couple of decent powers to help him in his fight, ghouls/thralls are just not seen as able to do this challenge of an actual vampire. Either Sharon, or a proxy such as the MC could fulfill the terms of the challenge, but this massively short changes Andrew.
3: Much more likely is that Sharon as an Archon of her own realm, can allow herself to create her own progeny, which would make Andrew her blood bound childe, and in addition to keeping all his military training and powers from his thralldom would pick up some boosts from becoming a vampire, thus giving him a much better chance against the southern archon. I see this as a likely route, as Andrew will serve as her continued body guard, confidant and oldest friend, as the MC pulls back some to spread his own wings.

3-A: **** Ayhsel You have legitimately caused me brain damage here :D
Astrid as a sleeper agent Tzmisce who can body sculpt is really messing with me... It also would make her a far more dangerous opponent for Sharon to openly fight..... That said- Additional action for Sharon that can not be avoided once pretty much anyone opens their mouth regarding Astrid being in Scottsville and capturing Gregor, and even more so if the MC mentions the conversations he had with Carmen and the beefstick hunter before the staking attempt. This will require Marcius to remove his protection from Astrid, to save his own reputation and save face, and possibly save his own life.
This would pit an older, most likely Toreador (as the Tzmisce option is too horrific in my mind for HER at the moment), almost elder if not elder against Sharon, who is a relatively gifted, relatively wise young adult vampire wise (Ancilla) and I continue to maintain is a Ventrue as the best fit for her gifts.
Toreador can make very good combatants and assassins (Tzmisce obviously superior). Presence has an awe power, and at higher levels, the ability to summon and render basically helpless any victim. So those powers could both be present in the vampires outlined as Astrid -Toreador and Sharon- Ventrue. (Or Astrid could have the Zulo war form which is what whacked the shit out of Sharon, thinking she killed her, but her fortitude pulled through for her......damnit Ayhsel) War form of the Tzmisce is big, fast, strong, and would leave aggravated wounds requiring elder type blood to heal effectively.((which fits almost too well, with Astrid being active around the old Hospital and singling out Sharon for an attack-which would be both faster and more powerful than a feral Nos))
Add to this that Toreador have Auspex and Celerity, and it becomes a fast, hard to fool or hide from opponent. Sharon on her part would be harder to kill, and if she gets eye contact it is basically over.
Such a battle does not NEED to be to the death unless someone is requiring it. It could require that the loser becomes the winner's thrall for some amount of time (there are painful ways to break the blood bond) In a Sharon/Astrid bout, I could see that. If Andrew is in it as her champion, he will do what she says.. IF the MC is in it, I believe he would enthrall her rather than kill her on general principle. So Sharon can have two fairly serious challenges on the horizon for her newfound nobility. I think Markus and Lord Carius would keep Marcius in line, or possibly if Marcius is paying attention, his own doubts about the MC will keep him behaving for a bit. Even with Marcius relatively behaving, Sharon's social calendar is looking very full in the near future.

Ok- Vision Girl gets a lot of attention. I think we should all be prepared for her to be the most powerful vampire in the area, but very much not Lilith, or even Arikel or some other female founder of a clan. There are numerous 4th and 5th generation (I know I said I would lay off this, and I will but need to restate a point) that are active in modern nights. There are no reliable records of anything earlier/more powerful being up and around except for some crazy claims about Caine.
I had been operation on the assumption that Vision Girl was of the same clan/bloodline of the MC. This absolutely does not have to be true. She could be some other clan, and just using her oracular powers to influence the receptive brains of Crazy Frank and Newbie MC. If that is the case, all bets are off as to what she is trying to accomplish. She could have influenced Calisto to sire the DJ that she had been observing for some time, and whom she had already been working on severing his family ties. Further- Ms Olivia has for sure been someone's midnight snack. Someone who wanted to keep tabs on the MC but not be super obnoxiously obvious about it. My first thought is Astrid of course. Next would be Sharon herself, but I am eliminating this as I believe that Sharon does not yet have the necessary guile to pull this off, even though there are scenes when she is clearly dominating Ms. Olivia....Vision Girl has apparently not risen yet and if she had, I doubt she would pick a used up female equivalent of the man whore we all want to be to snack on and show restraint. In all likelihood, if Vision Girl is what we think she is, she will need vampire blood to drink in any case.....Marcius,,,,, Maybe... Cindy,,, more likely... Calisto not likely. Fabian not likely... a Nos, not likely.

So fun speculation.
Carmen get's thralled, Mirri gets thralled, Sharon is closer to being thralled than she thinks and may already have the beginnings of that. 1-drank his blood to heal after woods attack. 2-tasted his blood when opening him up to give Laurie her first dose. 3-MC bit his own tongue when Sharon shared her blood with MC, thus giving her 3 tastes of the blood. There is no harem tag on here, as it won't be classical sex harem. It will be an operational harem in that his harem will take care of his worldly concerns, and they will all love on him through blood.

Blood Dolls that Calisto reminds MC to have on hand are not to give him an erection, they are common courtesy to provide sustenance to a visiting vampire lord when they enter your domain, so she was just reminding him of his obligations.

Ok much less source materials, still good stuff!
Peace
 
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Raptus Puellae

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3: Much more likely is that Sharon as an Archon of her own realm, can allow herself to create her own progeny, which would make Andrew her blood bound childe, and in addition to keeping all his military training and powers from his thralldom would pick up some boosts from becoming a vampire, thus giving him a much better chance against the southern archon. I see this as a likely route, as Andrew will serve as her continued body guard, confidant and oldest friend, as the MC pulls back some to spread his own wings.
embracing takes a chunk of humanity, so Sharon would proably embrace only 1, and there's that SharonSaveLaurie variable looming in the code... my prediction is that Sharon will embrace Laurie, while MC will embrace Carmen and will make Mrs Olivia his thrall...as of Andrew.... the MC in intimate relations (a game by Ptolemy, the co-dev of Rebirth) was called Andrew... If Andrew's daughter in reality has been turned without anyone knowing, she could be the one to turn Andrew.
Toreador can make very good combatants and assassins (Tzmisce obviously superior).
but which one indulges in the finest things? every time we see Astrid, she's wearing a fine dress even when she's supposedly been late because she's been interrogating a prisoner, and do we know what method she's using? maybe some awe
Or Astrid could have the Zulo war form which is what whacked the shit out of Sharon, thinking she killed her, but her fortitude pulled through for her......damnit @Ayhsel)
if Astrid was in the woods, she would be surprised to see Sharon at court especially since without some powerfull blood, there would be no way for Sharon to be scarless
I had been operation on the assumption that Vision Girl was of the same clan/bloodline of the MC. This absolutely does not have to be true. She could be some other clan, and just using her oracular powers to influence the receptive brains of Crazy Frank and Newbie MC. If that is the case, all bets are off as to what she is trying to accomplish. She could have influenced Calisto to sire the DJ that she had been observing for some time, and whom she had already been working on severing his family ties.
but if Visiongirl is Lilith, she can use the bloodbond with Cain to influence any vampire regardless of clan or affiliation, as of Calisto, she is bored so that means she probably tried everything there was to try, even snacking down her generation...
 

Arigon

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but if Visiongirl is Lilith, she can use the bloodbond with Cain to influence any vampire regardless of clan or affiliation, as of Calisto, she is bored so that means she probably tried everything there was to try, even snacking down her generation...
Vision Girl isn't Lilith. Let's look at the power level of what we are looking at. IF she is Lilith, the first wife of Adam and a co-corruptor of Caine, she will render everything and everybody else completely irrelevant in the story. I just am not getting that vibe. A 4th or 5th generation Methuselah is more than powerful enough to change entire epics, much more so able to completely write the new history on this region of whatever country it is in. We don't need vampires that are so close to the beginning that the story is an apocryphal story of how the MC was blended into a protein shake for Vision Girl to crack open one eye....
 

Arigon

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No that tramp could never ever replace Laurie
A girl tries to get an axe in your back after you wasted super macho beefcake, and you do not want to let go of the hostility... I can respect that. I don't agree, but it is dedication. Carmen will end up being more significant than Laurie to the MC I am betting.... Cause vamps have different thought processes.... bullet to the brain of a feral Nos, or Attempted Axe in my back..... hmmmm
 
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DA22

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Vision Girl isn't Lilith. Let's look at the power level of what we are looking at. IF she is Lilith, the first wife of Adam and a co-corruptor of Caine, she will render everything and everybody else completely irrelevant in the story. I just am not getting that vibe. A 4th or 5th generation Methuselah is more than powerful enough to change entire epics, much more so able to completely write the new history on this region of whatever country it is in. We don't need vampires that are so close to the beginning that the story is an apocryphal story of how the MC was blended into a protein shake for Vision Girl to crack open one eye....
Well first off this may well be an apocalyptic story. :) Considering whether dreaming beauty is Lilith or a Metusaleh, only the writer knows, but if dev would make her Lilith, remember Lilith is a mythical character and something more as just a vampire to start with and might not follow all rules anyway with her own goals that might have nothing to do with vampire society as such.

Though the forbidden lore is part of this game, we also do not know how far dev will stick to it or bring in other lore and myths into the game and have changes in his world. There are some indications at least Greek myths may play a part as well, where maybe some ancient vamps might have been seen as gods or they impersonated gods. If last dreaming beauty might well be Artemis and one that cursed C in past. If so she was already a top vampy in power rankings a few thousand years ago.

She may well just stay a sort of distant mentor for MC and have no interest in awakening or being awakened while that is the goal of some players in vamp society and take an active part in the world again, maybe she created MC to make sure she would be left at peace so she could go after her own desire. :p It could also be the long term destiny of the MC for example to stop some sect of bored elders (could that be one of C's goals since she does fit that bored part and her heireia title?) to awaken a gen 1 or 2 vamp overlord to stop that apocalypse. We will see hopefully. :)
 

Arigon

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A girl tries to get an axe in your back after you wasted super macho beefcake, and you do not want to let go of the hostility... I can respect that. I don't agree, but it is dedication. Carmen will end up being more significant than Laurie to the MC I am betting.... Cause vamps have different thought processes.... bullet to the brain of a feral Nos, or Attempted Axe in my back..... hmmmm
I did forget to say, hands down the best looking girl too..... cause she is!
 
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Spfjolietjake

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A girl tries to get an axe in your back after you wasted super macho beefcake, and you do not want to let go of the hostility... I can respect that. I don't agree, but it is dedication. Carmen will end up being more significant than Laurie to the MC I am betting.... Cause vamps have different thought processes.... bullet to the brain of a feral Nos, or Attempted Axe in my back..... hmmmm
I know that a lot of people are smitten with her looks and sob story and I do understand it. But fuck do I hope you are wrong and the options to drain her, and treat her like the prey she is, continue.

I did forget to say, hands down the best looking girl too..... cause she is!
I so disagree. To me she is all make up and fake as hell looking. I prefer the looks of Laurie and Sharon everyday. But that's the beauty of beauty we all see it differently. :)
 
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Arigon

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extremely odd behavior for me...
I have quit playing all lewd games on here, except this, Heavy Five, City of Broken Dreamers, Life Happened, Leap of Faith and Sorcerer. I was floating around, but I guess I got snobby lol I hardly look at the BaDIK board any more....
 

ucu32167

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Vision Girl isn't Lilith. Let's look at the power level of what we are looking at. IF she is Lilith, the first wife of Adam and a co-corruptor of Caine, she will render everything and everybody else completely irrelevant in the story. I just am not getting that vibe. A 4th or 5th generation Methuselah is more than powerful enough to change entire epics, much more so able to completely write the new history on this region of whatever country it is in. We don't need vampires that are so close to the beginning that the story is an apocryphal story of how the MC was blended into a protein shake for Vision Girl to crack open one eye....
Hate to rain on your parade a bit, but I think you're wrong.
Not on the Lilith stuff, but in general with how exact you get with things.
While this is heavily influenced by WOD, it's not a one to one translation.
And when you get into power levels, I don't think they apply. That's too WOD specific.
My opinion.
 
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Arigon

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Hate to rain on your parade a bit, but I think you're wrong.
Not on the Lilith stuff, but in general with how exact you get with things.
While this is heavily influenced by WOD, it's not a one to one translation.
And when you get into power levels, I don't think they apply. That's too WOD specific.
My opinion.
not raining on me at all my friend. I am just applying my lifetime of WoD study and play to the game. It is hard not to form very definite opinions after playing for a bit more than 30 years and Ars Magica before that.
 
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ucu32167

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not raining on me at all my friend. I am just applying my lifetime of WoD study and play to the game. It is hard not to form very definite opinions after playing for a bit more than 30 years and Ars Magica before that.
Fair.
I just don't think it will get too granural. He's 5'th gen, she's 6'th etc...
I don't think the game will ever get that specific.
The way I see it, it will show us the world like the MC sees it.
It won't step back and tell us exactly how powerful a vamp is. Just leave a vague line. Like it would be in real life. We know about the power levels because we create characters, and choose blood potency etc.... We have the vision of gods.
But for a character in that world, things would be much more hazy.
I'm not sure I'm making myself understood.
What I'm saying is that I doubt the game will ever explain the exact mechanics behind vampires. But it would show us things from a street level.
 
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Arigon

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Fair.
I just don't think it will get too granural. He's 5'th gen, she's 6'th etc...
I don't think the game will ever get that specific.
The way I see it, it will show us the world like the MC sees it.
It won't step back and tell us exactly how powerful a vamp is. Just leave a vague line. Like it would be in real life. We know about the power levels because we create characters, and choose blood potency etc.... We have the vision of gods.
But for a character in that world, things would be much more hazy.
I'm not sure I'm making myself understood.
What I'm saying is that I doubt the game will ever explain the exact mechanics behind vampires. But it would show us things from a street level.
I agree and disagree. I think we will get relative power levels which will allow us to place folks in genetic trees. We may not get exact power levels, or entire lists of disciplines, but certainly in relation to the MC we will get a great deal of granular analysis so we realize how potent or impotent he is relative to folks.
 
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Maviarab

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Fair.
I just don't think it will get too granural. He's 5'th gen, she's 6'th etc...
I don't think the game will ever get that specific.
The way I see it, it will show us the world like the MC sees it.
It won't step back and tell us exactly how powerful a vamp is. Just leave a vague line. Like it would be in real life. We know about the power levels because we create characters, and choose blood potency etc.... We have the vision of gods.
But for a character in that world, things would be much more hazy.
I'm not sure I'm making myself understood.
What I'm saying is that I doubt the game will ever explain the exact mechanics behind vampires. But it would show us things from a street level.
I actually tend to agree with you but for different reasons. There's a lot of supposition around here currently based upon..well, absolutely nothing at all. We know the source material, can't be disputed but, I know Ptolemly's work..and I think people are seriously overthinking his ability to write/tell a deep and complex story based off his other work.

Nothing he has done before (and currently still writes for) suggest this will be deep, meaningful and complex. In my opinion.
 
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