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Qwerfy

Member
Jan 17, 2018
141
187
Carmen can go away whenever she wants. You never "dominate" her. It's all a game for her, she's the cat and you're the mouse.
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The femdom tag is needed. It's a femdom game (nothing wrong with that but I wish I knew before playing). Now, I see there's a "female domination" tag, but I'm talking about a femdom tag in the description, in the "Genre" section.
I clearly got a very different interpretation out of some of the scenes than you did. It's mentioned multiple times in the protagonist's mind (and is made abundantly clear simply by what's going on) that she cannot escape without at least some of the mercenaries.

As for the death scene... no? Nobody is dominating anyone in the death scene, I'm really not sure how you got that. The MC is going out of his way to make his life mean something, both to Carmen and to the future of the world.

Even if you spare Carmen before that, there are no undertones at all of domination. It's not a question about that. Carmen is used to being the top dog and almost gets off on putting her fate in others' hands.

The only actual route that has domination as a theme is the one where you literally submit to Carmen.
 

Esti

Member
Oct 14, 2017
263
358
submit to Carmen
How? Never had that option while plaing.

Also I have to admit that femdom tag is necessary here, because Carmen always stays in control, no matter the circumstances. It is always clear that she lets those mercenaries feel in charge, while playing them like fools. I completely understand why some people consider her Mary Sue, because there is no option for winning aginst her in this game. The best you can do is dying with her.
 
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Qwerfy

Member
Jan 17, 2018
141
187
How? Never had that option while plaing.

Also I have to admit that femdom tag is necessary here, because Carmen always stays in control, no matter the circumstances. It is always clear that she lets those mercenaries feel in charge, while playing them like fools. I completely understand why some people consider her Mary Sue, because there is no option for winning aginst her in this game. The best you can do is dying with her.
I haven't played the route, but you start it by licking soup off her when you go to feed her.

As for the second part, literally just read my above comment.
 

Esti

Member
Oct 14, 2017
263
358
it by licking soup off her
This is beginning of "submit to Crow" route. It's different. I would gladly submit to Carmen, but to call Crow your mistress? No way in hell!

I read your comment the first time I replied and it just wrong. I mean Carmen is always toying with the mercs, she always shows that she is in their hands because it's interesting for her. Want proof? In the night she can directly show Roman that she could, possibly, escape anytime she wished, but chose to stay. Need more? Try any ending aside from dying with her. You either escape from the house without daring to harm her in any way, or you serve her in different positions, or you die at her hands. That's all. This game is unwinnable. Actually, that is my main gripe with this game. I may like femdom, but it's always have to be my choice to submit or not and there is no choice on this matter in this game.
 
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Qwerfy

Member
Jan 17, 2018
141
187
This is beginning of "submit to Crow" route. It's different. I would gladly submit to Carmen, but to call Crow your mistress? No way in hell!

I read your comment the first time I replied and it just wrong. I mean Carmen is always toying with the mercs, she always shows that she is in their hands because it's interesting for her. Want proof? In the night she can directly show Roman that she could, possibly, escape anytime she wished, but chose to stay. Need more? Try any ending aside from dying with her. You either escape from the house without daring to harm her in any way, or you serve her in different positions, or you die at her hands. That's all. This game is unwinnable. Actually, that is my main gripe with this game. I may like femdom, but it's always have to be my choice to submit or not and there is no choice on this matter in this game.
Did you forget the part in which she requires the mercenaries to actually escape? She has charisma, and fighting skill, but if they all simply leave there is nothing she can do except hope her troops find her before she dies of thirst.

While Crow and (Mark? the hired guy) are in your group, as well as potentially Roman depending how you play him, she can escape pretty easily, yes. But in what is literally called the "Wholesome Ending", you manage to convince everyone to leave and she's, surprise, trapped in the cellar.

You also have the option of knocking her unconscious with poison then subsequently killing her*. That's simply not something I'd tag as "female domination".

*Oh, and what's this? You make the decision as to whether you want to kill her or spare her. Nobody else can change anything.
 

Esti

Member
Oct 14, 2017
263
358
Did you forget
No, I did not. But that doesn't change anything.

You can leave her, yes, and what does it show? That all your band of mercs is incapable of beating one woman. That your party literally escapes with nothing but their lives for all the hard work out of fear and respect for her.

I would count that only if it is possible to kill her and get out of all this mess alive and well. Otherwise, what's the point?
The Female Domination tag doesn't mean that woman is incapable of loosing, or is Mary Sue, or is immortal. It means only that female is dominating and almost all the conversations with Carmen play out exactly as she wishes.
 
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goobdoob

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No, I did not. But that doesn't change anything.

You can leave her, yes, and what does it show? That all your band of mercs is incapable of beating one woman. That your party literally escapes with nothing but their lives for all the hard work out of fear and respect for her.

I would count that only if it is possible to kill her and get out of all this mess alive and well. Otherwise, what's the point?
The Female Domination tag doesn't mean that woman is incapable of loosing, or is Mary Sue, or is immortal. It means only that female is dominating and almost all the conversations with Carmen play out exactly as she wishes.
Typically femdom is not used to describe the interaction a powerful woman has with an inferior; it means a female sexually dominates a male. A femdom tag would, IMO, be incorrect.
 
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Dusky Hallows

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Game Developer
Aug 6, 2017
207
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No, I did not. But that doesn't change anything.

You can leave her, yes, and what does it show? That all your band of mercs is incapable of beating one woman. That your party literally escapes with nothing but their lives for all the hard work out of fear and respect for her.

I would count that only if it is possible to kill her and get out of all this mess alive and well. Otherwise, what's the point?
The Female Domination tag doesn't mean that woman is incapable of loosing, or is Mary Sue, or is immortal. It means only that female is dominating and almost all the conversations with Carmen play out exactly as she wishes.
I'm not a huge fan of author's intentions mattering too much, so my interpretation doesn't matter more than anyone else's really, but I'd say this is less about Carmen dominating and more about an ongoing negotiation. Really the whole game is about negotiation and compromise. You begin with Carmen locked up, but your employer hasn't arrived. As the game goes on, Carmen can convince you that your employer never intended to collect, and regardless of whether she is right, he never does appear. So while you have her locked up, you can't get anything for her. So now that the parameters of the mission have changed, the question is how can you still benefit?

Killing Carmen doesn't really achieve anything. From our perspective, safely behind a screen, it might feel rewarding, but it's not pragmatic if you're one of the Mercs. Roman wants a Knighthood, he wants recognition and status, and there's some honour in that. Killing Valentine won't get him that. Even if she's Greater Hirane's enemy, she's noble, and they'll never knight somebody for killing a noble. In that time period it was custom to ransom captured nobles. If you were going to kill them, you'd do it publicly as an execution. Neither side wants assassins murdering their nobility. It's mutually assured destruction. So he could kill her and not take the credit, but that's a risk for no reward. Walking away is safer, since Carmen has much more important things to do than send her troops after some mercenaries. There's also joining Carmen, which is also risky but at least offers a reward. The riskiest option is to try and take Carmen north, and this is the one she is most opposed to, and reacts most violently too. That Carmen can fight to get free doesn't mean she wants to. She's very Sun Tzu in her approach, and would prefer to subdue her enemy without fighting, because fighting is the least effective way to get what she wants. Being stuck in a Watchhouse for three days isn't fun, but sustaining an injury which takes weeks or months to heal from? That's worse.

So in a certain sense Carmen does dominate the different routes, but the goal isn't necessarily to make Carmen lose it's to make Roman win, and you get to define your own win state. If you value Roman's friendship with Glasha, that can be the win state. If you think Roman's budding romance with Crow can satisfy him, then that can be the win state. If you think Roman needs to earn a position of power, then joining Carmen can be the win state. If you want Carmen to lose, you can do that, it just costs your life.

In any of these scenarios, Carmen doesn't really win. It's revealed in some of the endings that your employer's plan was to attack her fleet, and it worked perfectly. The Sanguine Rose war effort takes a huge hit, and so does Carmen's reputation. Carmen almost always gets out alive, but much like the player, she's losing something in the process. Her decision to negotiate her way out, rather than fight, ends up costing her dearly, but if she fought from the get go then she might have lost her life. It's easy to feel like Carmen is always winning, but she arguably loses much more than Roman does.

We didn't want an ending which lets anyone have it all, since we felt it would diminish the whole point of what a choice is. It's a negotiation, you decide what you want to take away and what you leave behind. If there was an option to have everything, that would defeat the whole point. Your choices matter, or they matter as much as we could make them matter for an indie studio with a minimal budget.

All that said, it's perfectly valid and cool for people to feel that there should be a route where you can win more, or outsmart Carmen and beat her completely. It's just that, to us, that would spoil what we were going for. It would be a different game entirely.

Does this game have mom son incest
Nope, none of the characters are related.
 

dragoon747

New Member
Nov 11, 2017
8
10
I really love the lore behind the game and the low-fantasy aspect of it! It’s beautifully written and the characters are interesting. And the drawings :love: whoaaa (nebezial/shiniez vibe, but truly unique). I hope you’ll return to this setting one day!

Roman wants a Knighthood, he wants recognition and status, and there's some honour in that.
He’ll quickly realize he’s got two choices : losing his honour or going away empty handed.
On the opposite, Carmen won’t lose anything personal (time maybe?). I mean, if he doesn’t kill her…
And she’ll win a great story (which will probably lessen her reputation loss) and maybe few more slaves/servants/knight :devilish:

That Carmen can fight to get free doesn't mean she wants to.
Yes, she's in position of power, from the very start of the game. And there is nothing we can do to change that. That's why I think the OP should have added the "femdom" tag in the genre description.

Walking away is safer, since Carmen has much more important things to do than send her troops after some mercenaries.
In several paths, she kills Glasha only because she has the opportunity to do it. From a rational point of view it’s extremely risky to let Carmen go away : she’s unpredictable and dangerous (from the player's point of view), right?

And it reminds me that Glasha’s death is probably the most horrible thing in this game. A noncon domination of this beast would have been sooo much better :D Or a naked fight between Carmen and Glasha :eek: (a more hum... enjoyable death - at least for the player) or, trully, anything with Glasha! :love:

Typically femdom is not used to describe the interaction a powerful woman has with an inferior; it means a female sexually dominates a male. A femdom tag would, IMO, be incorrect.
Even without speaking about the powerplay, you can literally become Crow’s/Carmen’s/the queen’s bitch at the end of the game…
 
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goobdoob

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Even without speaking about the powerplay, you can literally become Crow’s/Carmen’s/the queen’s bitch at the end of the game…
In one ending he becomes her boy toy. That's still not femdom.
 

Muffeh

Member
Jun 25, 2017
181
348
I really didn't like that you couldn't have sex with Carmen in most of the routes.
 

Esti

Member
Oct 14, 2017
263
358
lets anyone have it all, since we felt it would diminish the whole point of what a choice is
If you side with Carmen even if everyone is on boat, Glasha has second thoughts and dies. If you would give a player this one last choice to determine, would he sacrifice Glasha or the negotiated goods, that would be fair. And as of right now you aren't choosing anything in the end. In any end I might add.

she arguably loses much more than Roman does
No. It doesn't really matter if she loses something offscreen, because it wasn't player doing. All that matters is battle of wits in the game itself. And you can't possibly win that in any meaningful way. Which means that she is, indeed, dominating the whole experience. Which is fine and I do love that aspect of the game, but I don't like to have no choice on the matter entirely.

Killing Carmen doesn't really achieve anything
But it does. Saving Glasha, for example. Or killing enemy of your homeland.

Listen, I love this game. I really do. And my only two gripes are inability to submit to Carmen without proxy and inability to win.

Also, I would love to play as a Roman in Carmen's service in the possible sequel)
 

riexor

Member
May 27, 2017
151
170
Somehow I missed this game. Love the art style and Crow. I wish there was an ending without her being enthralled by Carmen, but oh well. Good game overall, weird choices to make at times though.
 
4.20 star(s) 80 Votes