Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.05 Dev] [Vénus Noire]

[pizbia]

Ehh, I did not meant it that way. I was just referring to my comment on prices, it was not attack on art of writing. I would rather say that writers are heavly underpaid.... Somehow everything I write today rub ppl in worng way...

I'm not saying this to join the debate or anything but I think it's kind of a situation of the internet meaning writers can now actually get paid what they deserve. For reference, your ballpark figure is actually not that far off what you'd probably pay a writer for a real-life story if you submitted something to a literary journal, for example. A short story would probably get you $50-ish if they liked it, maybe $500 if there were some prizes, maybe $1000 for a really nice prize. A lot of the time they won't even pay you at all. Then factor in the fact that most journals aren't going to accept submissions a lot of the time, publishing houses are slow and have their own issues with what they want to publish, and then you realise writing covers fuck all irl. You were actually not far off my own experience irl, to be honest.

But one of the good things about the internet is that your exposure can come so much more quickly and you can start getting paid enough to actually eat, a trend which I've heard is getting quite popular nowadays.

 

[TheSexinati]

I'm not saying this to join the debate or anything but I think it's kind of a situation of the internet meaning writers can now actually get paid what they deserve. For reference, your ballpark figure is actually not that far off what you'd probably pay a writer for a real-life story if you submitted something to a literary journal, for example. A short story would probably get you $50-ish if they liked it, maybe $500 if there were some prizes, maybe $1000 for a really nice prize. A lot of the time they won't even pay you at all. Then factor in the fact that most journals aren't going to accept submissions a lot of the time, publishing houses are slow and have their own issues with what they want to publish, and then you realise writing covers fuck all irl. You were actually not far off my own experience irl, to be honest.

But one of the good things about the internet is that your exposure can come so much more quickly and you can start getting paid enough to actually eat, a trend which I've heard is getting quite popular nowadays.

Now try being a wood carver. Too many people don't realize that there is a lot of time and effort involved, and the moment you start trying to sell something to people... they go "WTF, That's expensive!"... To which I go "Yeah... and did you spend 60+ hours trying to do something like this... No, I thought not!" Or at least that's what I want to do. Instead, I get told that shit is too expensive and I stand their going "Mmmhmm"... inwardly boiling. Most motherfuckers have never 'worked' a day in their life, at least artisanaly speaking.

At least there is wood competitions/shows. I've won one award that was worth $150, that made my day. The work was called 'Three Hares' and is a shallow relief based off a piece from an English Church dating to the 1200's (The oldest is probably in China and dates to about 600AD)

 

[05841035411]

I'm not saying this to join the debate or anything but I think it's kind of a situation of the internet meaning writers can now actually get paid what they deserve. For reference, your ballpark figure is actually not that far off what you'd probably pay a writer for a real-life story if you submitted something to a literary journal, for example. A short story would probably get you $50-ish if they liked it, maybe $500 if there were some prizes, maybe $1000 for a really nice prize. A lot of the time they won't even pay you at all. Then factor in the fact that most journals aren't going to accept submissions a lot of the time, publishing houses are slow and have their own issues with what they want to publish, and then you realise writing covers fuck all irl. You were actually not far off my own experience irl, to be honest.

But one of the good things about the internet is that your exposure can come so much more quickly and you can start getting paid enough to actually eat, a trend which I've heard is getting quite popular nowadays.

Eh, it depends a lot on the field, I'd say... For someone looking to publish a book, for instance, the hard part was always getting published - but once you were (and your book was received decently by the public), you'd see a fair price for your work. Perhaps not enough to be a household's sole income, unless you were either particularly talented or a hack who could write at a ferocious pace, but more than a token sum.

With the internet stripping away so many barriers to entry, however, a lot of people are practically giving away their work for free just in hopes of being noticed, something that is depressing value across the board. And when both the producer and the consumer are trained to think that two dollars is a fair price for an entire book, it's much harder for an author to ask for a price that is actually commensurate with the value of their work; it's hard to imagine anyone but the most famous actually being able to make a career of being an author at the prices I see self-published authors asking these days. While getting published may have become easier, making a living from what you write may, ironically, have become harder.

It's unmistakably a boon for something like the author of an H-game, however, whom I imagine had a hard time meeting with interested parties before the internet made it possible.

 

[T51bwinterized]

I think it'd be pretty cool if the female knight's vision would be one of possible endings, once the development comes near the end. By the vision I mean when she imaginates the MC sitting on the throne with the female demon pleasuring him. Sorry, but I've already forgotten all the names. xD
Edit: I mean this.
View attachment 317268

Look, I'm not going to commit to an ending like that. For all you guys know we may delibretly play off against that. But, I will point out to you that a good writer doesn't include a scene foreshadowing a possible story endpoint without some kind of purpose to doing so. We're aware some people want that, and it's part of why the scene exists.

 

[Meridian]

Look, I'm not going to commit to an ending like that. For all you guys know we may delibretly play off against that.

You mean there is a possibility that a game that was advertised as "you are playing as villain" won't have an ending where main character ends up being an actual evil lord?

 

[Rein]

You mean there is a possibility that a game that was advertised as "you are playing as villain" won't have an ending where main character ends up being an actual evil lord?

SUBVERT EXPECTATIONS

 

[Hekzow]

You mean there is a possibility that a game that was advertised as "you are playing as villain" won't have an ending where main character ends up being an actual evil lord?

You could be a goody two shoes villain, like in the good path of the first Overlord game. Doesn't help that every other faction is pretty much worse than yours.

 

[tofumen]

cool idea for the alpha male route mc becomes the badass outlaw king or some shit would be cool and ofcourse dominates all the bitches and kill all other males Demon ending boom....

Yes Id love to see Rowan dominating that little demon bitch into submission. Reminds me of a video game called Catherine's ending.

I also want new scenes where Rowan defeats that hypnotizing witch and rape her up good. After that maybe throw her to orcs or tentacle beast for a good gangrape scene.

 

[tofumen]

Look, I'm not going to commit to an ending like that. For all you guys know we may delibretly play off against that. But, I will point out to you that a good writer doesn't include a scene foreshadowing a possible story endpoint without some kind of purpose to doing so. We're aware some people want that, and it's part of why the scene exists.

This is a porn game and I dont think many ppl care about a good plot. I understand you guys hire writers who have degrees and take pride in their writings, but their focus should be what supporters and potential customers want, not a Nobel literature prize.

I see movies, video games succeed when they listen to fans, and fail when they dont cuz of developer's certain ego. Sometimes the creators are mesmerized too much by their philosophy. Some of them turn out like Tim Burton, Guillermo del Toro, or Hideo Kojima, others like the people who made new Star Wars. Not that you guys are this case, Im just saying.

Back to the topic; In my humble opinion, for a project like this, as long as it makes minimal sense(or even doesnt) many different ending possibilities should be open to fans if they sate their fetishes.

 

[Back]

This is a porn game and I dont think many ppl care about a good plot.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. I think this game is popular because it has a "good plot". A lot of people search for games by genre/content due to certain expectations in the plot, for example. Aroich's vision and drive to make this game a reality made it so that he assembled a good team of writers, coders, artists, etc. It's this current team of deverlopers that actually think about what's happening in the game and planning it out that makes this game as enjoyable as it is. I don't always agree with their choices but no one should deny their talents. Give credit when it's due. I mean, if you don't care about the plot then just go find some still images to look at--you don't have to read anything. (Though, there are plenty of players that don't read things in games either.) If I didn't care about the plot for games, then I'd have orders of magnitude of games on this rig. A good plot is crucial, nay, critical, in games--be they porn games or not. They could be simple, granted, but flat out saying "many people don't care about a good plot" seems like a fallacy. Also, don't take this as an attack against you (dorkryono), but I just disagree with that statement. However, I'll give you the point about creators for games, movies, etc. should at least consider what their audience might want.

 

[tofumen]

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. I think this game is popular because it has a "good plot". A lot of people search for games by genre/content due to certain expectations in the plot, for example. Aroich's vision and drive to make this game a reality made it so that he assembled a good team of writers, coders, artists, etc. It's this current team of deverlopers that actually think about what's happening in the game and planning it out that makes this game as enjoyable as it is. I don't always agree with their choices but no one should deny their talents. Give credit when it's due. I mean, if you don't care about the plot then just go find some still images to look at--you don't have to read anything. (Though, there are plenty of players that don't read things in games either.) If I didn't care about the plot for games, then I'd have orders of magnitude of games on this rig. A good plot is crucial, nay, critical, in games--be they porn games or not. They could be simple, granted, but flat out saying "many people don't care about a good plot" seems like a fallacy. Also, don't take this as an attack against you (dorkryono), but I just disagree with that statement. However, I'll give you the point about creators for games, movies, etc. should at least consider what their audience might want.

My point was that games like this should be opened to many different possibilities, even if its against certain philosophy of the devs. I think it was a mistake saying that "ppl dont care about good plot" cuz now that sounds like "its ok to have shitty plot". That's not what I meant.

I myself like the "plot" of this game so far, by plot I mean the atmosphere, basic cause and effect, readable scripts kind of thing. I love this game even has a huge Codex that explains characters and history. I enjoyed reading the prologue and all of the sex scene scripts, but skip a lot of other stuff including random encounter dialogues.

The devs have been doing a great job so far and I dont wanna drag this into long criticism, What I'm saying is I'll be glad if the future direction of this game is flexible.

 

[tonicase24]

[B]Back[/B] i agree so much with your statement

 

[Back]

My point was that games like this should be opened to many different possibilities, even if its against certain philosophy of the devs. I think it was a mistake saying that "ppl dont care about good plot" cuz now that sounds like "its ok to have shitty plot". That's not what I meant.

Ah, gotcha. 'Cause that's totally how I read it. *Fistbumps for the clarification.*

 

[tofumen]

Ah, gotcha. 'Cause that's totally how I read it. *Fistbumps for the clarification.*

"Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important." A quote by John Carmack, who made Doom series.
A very controversial quote but kinda has a similar context to what's going on with this topic.

 

[T51bwinterized]

Just my two cents here. A lot of people think of writers wanting to write good porn as being like, wishing to be in some other genre and offering porn as concessions. This is not what me, Rein or anyone on the team, is doing.

When someone "Writes good porn" the word "Good" modifies "Porn" not "Writes".

Now, Seeds of Chaos has more modes of engagement them just eroticism. But, Eroticism is easily the top Mode of Engagement. Everything in the game should be ultimately helping the Eroticism somehow. A good writer of erotica keeps that in mind.

So why is there so much stuff besides fucking in Seeds of Chaos? Because what makes Eroticism more powerful is stories. Triumph, Tragedy, Defeat, Conquest, Losing ones morals. All of these things infuse themselves in the Eroticism and elevate it above two anonymous bodies in motion. The sex is the story and the story is the sex.

So let's return to the question. Should an ending exactly identical to the one in Helayna's vision be in the game? Well it depends really. Is is it a compelling erotic story to do it that way? That's the deciding quesion.

We can't put infinite endings in the game. There is only so much resources and manpower. Is it worthwhile to do that specific formulation over others?

Now there is another facet to this argument as well. If the fans want something, are creators required to add it?

Well, no. Obviously. But, there is some practical considerations. Fans pay for the game and it's creation so it would be stupid and plausibly unethical not to take their wishes into account.

But a consideration for fans desires should be strategic. Sometimes you should take a direct piece of feedback at face value because it is a good idea specifically. But, sometimes the feedback being offered is on a subject they just aren't as knowledgeable as the creator on. Sometimes, requests are bad, or at the very least come from a point of relative ignorance. This is especially common when it comes to writing because even if Tolkien himself was a fan of SOC, he wouldn't have as much knowledge as the people on the other side. And it ain't because we're better then Tolkien, I assure you. There is no personal judgement implicit in a request not being feasible.

So what should be done about such a request? Well, not ignore it. That's for sure. But it shouldn't be taken on face value either. One of the arts of a writer in the public sphere is deciding when to take feedback on face value and when to look for the "request behind the request". What is it that someone desires but is trying to express in specifics as opposed to broad strokes?

In this respect, I think that any specific request about an ending should be taken that way. Endings are the consequence of the events of the entire rest of the story. Events most folks, and to an extent the writers, aren't privy too. So comitting to a specific type of ending is always a bad idea from the start.

So when I say "Maybe" to the request for that ending. It is a maybe that also carries the statement "But, I see why you are asking for that and have every intention of fufilling the underlying desire you're expressing". Also a maybe in the sense of "If we don't decide to do it, as budget allows, we'd be aiming to do something that fufills the base desire even more powerfully".

It also doesn't mean that we won't even do a scene totally identical to the vision. As I said. We included it purposefully. But, if it would improve the Mode of Engagement of the story then it would be better not to do it that way.

 

[NotYourBiznes]

Look, I'm not going to commit to an ending like that. For all you guys know we may delibretly play off against that. But, I will point out to you that a good writer doesn't include a scene foreshadowing a possible story endpoint without some kind of purpose to doing so. We're aware some people want that, and it's part of why the scene exists.

It's not like the story as whole forshadows that the MC is gonna be demoness' puppet. You're telling me there will be no such endings?

 

[T51bwinterized]

It's not like the story as whole forshadows that the MC is gonna be demoness' puppet. You're telling me there will be no such endings?

Look up.

 

[tofumen]

We can't put infinite endings in the game. There is only so much resources and manpower. Is it worthwhile to do that specific formulation over others?

So this game does have multi-endings, that's good for me. Maybe just consider making one of them as the dominating one. Of course it doesn't have to be the same as Helayna's daydream.

BTW, I just felt it was wrong to ask this and that when I didn't even pay a penny for this project. So I just pledged $50 tier in your Patreon. From what you guys have done so far, I say you've earned it already.

I spent money supporting some stupid shit like Agony on Kickstarter and pledged on lesser early access projects than this one. Some people spend tons of money buying retarded crap in Fortnite, so what the hell. This game has given me more pleasure than most other video games and I think it's the right thing to do. Keep up the work.

 

[NotYourBiznes]

Look up.

TL;DR I think it's something like we expect from you something we shouldn't. I respect you as the game creator, it's you (and your people) who decides what the game is like. I just didn't like your argumentation to why there will not be what I had suggested before.

 

[T51bwinterized]

So this game does have multi-endings, that's good for me. Maybe just consider making one of them as the dominating one. Of course it doesn't have to be the same as Helayna's daydream.

BTW, I just felt it was wrong to ask this and that when I didn't even pay a penny for this project. So I just pledged $50 tier in your Patreon. From what you guys have done so far already, I say you've earned it.

I spent money supporting some stupid shit like Agony on Kickstarter, and pledged on lesser early access projects than this one.
Some people spend tons of money buying retarded crap in Fortnite, so what the hell. This game has given me more pleasure than most other video games and I think it's the right thing to do. Keep up the work.

I assure you, dude. I lobby Arioch harder for more Rowan/Dom then anyone else. We are on the same page.

Thank you for the donation. Truly. We like to make the money of fans count. Not everyone has to donate. We have a free option for a reason. But, if you feel you're in the right place to do so, then we're glad you did!

P.S. When joining the SoC Discord, just let us know who you are and if it doesn't automatically give you a Patron role, we'll help out with it.