Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.05 Dev] [Vénus Noire]

[diebesgrab]

I swear, people seem not to be aware that everything sexual is either dominant or submissive. It's just like gay or straight, every single act is one or the other.
Are you serving (giving pleasure - submissive) or being served (receiving it - dominant)? That is a quick and simple guide.

I almost thought this post was serious up till reading this. Thanks for the chuckle.

 

[Ano85]

I think you are mistaking submissive with non-consensual. People with a submissive mindset feel comfortable when they are being controlled. Bottoming also doesn't necessarily count as being submissive, as some people just enjoy that kind of pleasure. You also changed the "giving" and "receiving" parts. The top gives and the bottom receives, and be it straight or not, tops are usually more responsible for how things turn out. The way you described "taking pleasure" just makes that kind of person selfish, nothing else.

Greyhide is definitely not dominant in his relationship with Rowan. He shows signs of low self-esteem here and there, and he caves in to pressure from people he trusts. How he ends up in his scenes completely depends on Rowan and Alexia. To an extent it feels like only Alexia is (maybe only subconsciously) aware of this if she spends time with him in the forge. Rowan on the other hand feels like he is unaware that he could take charge at any moment. <- This part frustrates me quite a bit, and it's probably the reason you listed him there.

I bet the devs are having a field day from reading the comments here. Let's all hold hands and kiss to make it even better.

 

[kurupt87]

Some of them even consider maledom content as femdom, if it is not maledom enough. Like reading here Helayna is an option for subs.

I didn't say it was femdom, did I?
I said it involved a submissive Rowan. He doesn't choose to dom her for his pleasure, he does it to save her. His pleasure is incidental. He is an unwilling dom in this scene.
Following that scene, and choosing to keep her, he sates her for her well being, not his. Given the descriptions and explanations the game gives us, Rowan very much dislikes having to do it and seeing her in this state.
Everything he does to her he does for her, none of it is for him. Going by the omniscient narrators descriptions at any rate.
What this means is that at surface level the content is dom by Rowan but, in tone and character motivation we see that Rowan wants to serve and restore her.
Now, perhaps he wants to restore her to ravish her when she's compos mentis but, honestly, it seems more likely he wants her as yet another bloody Queen he can worship at the feet of.

 

[kurupt87]

I think you are mistaking submissive with non-consensual.

Nope. I can't even think of a single rape scene in the game, which is depressing given the setting but understandable since I believe this game is now on Steam?

Bottoming also doesn't necessarily count as being submissive, as some people just enjoy that kind of pleasure.

Yes it does, though you have power-bottom too. What the sub enjoys is irrelevant, the sub is getting fucked how the top wants regardless. If there's a relationship then the top will fuck the sub how s/he likes but outside of that (which almost all scenes in this game are) the top wouldn't care.
Like Andras and Jez, they give 0 shits about what their subs enjoy or feel. If they want to fuck them then they will and they'll do it how they want to.

You also changed the "giving" and "receiving" parts. The top gives and the bottom receives, and be it straight or not, tops are usually more responsible for how things turn out. The way you described "taking pleasure" just makes that kind of person selfish, nothing else.

The top acts, the bottom is acted upon.
The top orders, the bottom obeys.
The top takes, the bottom gives up.
Whatever.
Taking pleasure is the outlook of a dom-inclined person in a one night stand.
Giving pleasure is the outlook of a sub-inclined person in a one night stand.
If there's a relationship then obviously both make sure the other gets what they want but, the dominant partner is the one who decides how that is done - "I'm going to fuck you now, bend over the desk" vs "lie back baby, I'm going to ride you 'til you pop".

Greyhide is definitely not dominant in his relationship with Rowan. He shows signs of low self-esteem here and there, and he caves in to pressure from people he trusts. How he ends up in his scenes completely depends on Rowan and Alexia. To an extent it feels like only Alexia is (maybe only subconsciously) aware of this if she spends time with him in the forge. Rowan on the other hand feels like he is unaware that he could take charge at any moment. <- This part frustrates me quite a bit, and it's probably the reason you listed him there.

To a point I'll agree (an immoral and bara loving Rowan could probably neg and manipulate Greyhide during his depression to get what he wants), though you forget to mention how eagerly Rowan jumps into the bottom role.
It is him eagerly bending over for Greyhide in the culmination of the drug scenes, not the other way around. Which is essentially them expressing their true sexuality, as Jez says, without their personality controlling it. As such, Alexia and Rowan are cumslut cockwhores and Greyhide is the dom.
Greyhide is supressing his beastly dominance, which is why he is depressed. He is ignoring his feelings and trying to live on intellect and distraction in work alone.

 

[kausholic]

I hope there will be a scene where Rowan fucks Andras in the ass. That would make me hard beyond imaginable.

 

[T51bwinterized]

Thanks, I am aware of the difference. Rowan always gets off on being used though, which means he's enjoying it. Which means he's sexually submissive. If he was dom and chose to please Andras/Jezera at the start (to demonstrate loyalty/protect wife), he'd remain as soft as a wooly hat.

He also, in almost every instance, has a choice of whether or not to actually do the act. As well as him being nominally in charge. So, he actually has lots of choice.

And even if he didn't, it makes 0 difference to the content. The content would still be submissive, regardless of whether he enjoys it or not. Shit, (this never happens in game but) him not enjoying it would make the content more submissive.

And, putting aside most of Rowan's escapades putting him in the submissive role, on the rare occasion that isn't the case Rowan (9 times out of 10) himself chooses to please his partner rather than getting pleasure from them - which is the submissive choice.

I swear, people seem not to be aware that everything sexual is either dominant or submissive. It's just like gay or straight, every single act is one or the other.
Are you serving (giving pleasure - submissive) or being served (receiving it - dominant)? That is a quick and simple guide.

I'm on day 30 or so and I can think of 5 partnerships/scenes with a dominant Rowan (two of which are one-off throwaway characters);
Draith,
Sheena
Luerial (or however you spell her name, the elf secretary).
Unnamed twink dude that Cla-Min appears with
Alexia is also an option here, though she has hilariously few scenes with Rowan (1 variant of 1st scene is Rowan dom, other variant is her, the other scene is her domme no choice - so, 0.5/2 are dom Rowan).

For a submissive (and most of these are super submissive) Rowan on the other hand, well.
Jezera,
Andras,
T'zel-whatever - the four armed futa (I really dislike how she has superior mind control to the library chick, and I really really dislike not being able to fight it, I just have to say no to content and gate it off - futa as sub doesn't occur to femdom smitten writer),
Greyhide,
tavern woman is indirectly on this list (she's attractive yet unfuckable by Rowan and also encourages his wife to cuck him),
Cla-Min (Rowan isn't topping that family, he's being used and blatantly manipulated by power bottoms and dommes whilst somehow being idiotically unaware and unable to resist - no option to revel and take advantage, he's just along for the ride as they make all the decisions),
Qail (or whatever his name is, the adventurer dude in the same party as Sheena),
Shaya (ludicrously she's on this list, given the opportunity to fuck her whilst she is seductively tied up Rowan instead chooses to eat-out a prostitute, a more unpleasant, sissy and submissive act I find hard to contemplate - he views himself as lower than someone who sells their cunt on an hourly basis and chooses to lick and suck up all its juices, vile),
Clondike (or whatever, the magess elf in the library) - I assume she has a whole bunch of femdom scenes (she has an arc where it looks as though you can dom her eventually but it's yet to pay off for me, after about 7 scenes or so of resistance - I don't mind long payoff as long as there is other stuff to keep me entertained in the meantime),
Heleyna (or whatever her name is, noble knight chick from the keep) seems to only have a route where Rowan (keeping her) loves her and wants to restore her - no option (yet?) for dominating/using,
Half-elf chick in mine, Valeyna or something,
Super skinny dark haired chick in the capital.
Futa-Alexia is here - again, it apparently never occurs to the femdom smitten writers that Rowan can still fuck her (anally or vaginally) whilst ignoring her cock almost completely (which is how a dom enjoys fucking someone that has a cock - it flopping uselessly around as it's owner gets fucked is perverse and enjoyable),
mate seeking orcess - ridiculous, he goes through the rigamarole of dominating the competition to then treating this bitch like she's his lover, so retarded. He doesn't love her so why is he making love to her?! She's his prize, an object to hump! You only make love if you have feelings for the other person, otherwise they're a cockholster that requires you to jump through some hoops! Unless, of course, Rowan is inherently submissive and wants to please more than he wants to be pleased.

Bleh, despite what you might infer from the long rant I don't hate this game - it is in 3rd person after all, so I have a dom save and a sub s(l)ave whose life I ruin.
But, I just would much prefer at least a balanced approach to dom/sub.

(Ignore this last comment, rest of my post is serious, this last comment is just exasperation) And less femdom for crying out loud, can't turn around on this board without bumping into more of the bloody stuff.

I'm not going to go super far into this. But, if a dom can only be concerned with only their own pleasure, does mean that any Dom who tortures a sub with forced orgasm is a sub?

Is giving oral sex to a ties up person nessacerily a submissive act? Would Jezera be a sub if she tied up Alexia and ate her out?

Interesting how for some there is too much femdom in the game. I was a Patreon at the start because of the femdom content, but imho it shifted more and more to maledom and gay content. Now it seems the game's older scenes might even be rewritten. Hmm, well I guess complaining a lot helps and if the majority of their current Patreons want that content the devs are probably right to follow that demand.
Personally from a femdom lover's point of view I simply moved on to dedicated femdom games,meaning where it is the main thing. Any game where femdom is an also run, just gets too much pressure from people into maledom, since for some reason a good amount of these guys always trigger femdom scenes, even when they are avoidable. Some of them even consider maledom content as femdom, if it is not maledom enough. Like reading here Helayna is an option for subs.

Wasn't really about shifting focus. See, what basically happened is that for awhile all the other writer's fell of and I was solo writing the thing. And I'm an Mdom so I was basically writing what I know. But, since then we've built an entire team of writer's with an eclectic mix of tastes. One of our goals is more is to balance out the sexual content more. So while I will continue to focus on Mdom and Lezdom type scenes, we're hoping to expand in other areas well.

 

[Snugglepuff]

Thanks, I am aware of the difference. Rowan always gets off on being used though, which means he's enjoying it. Which means he's sexually submissive. If he was dom and chose to please Andras/Jezera at the start (to demonstrate loyalty/protect wife), he'd remain as soft as a wooly hat.

You do realise that basically everything you've said is because you've chosen for Rowan to be sexually submissive, right?

 

[kausholic]

Getting some beastiality rape in the mix as well would be nice

 

[kurupt87]

I'm not going to go super far into this. But, if a dom can only be concerned with only their own pleasure, does mean that any Dom who tortures a sub with forced orgasm is a sub?

Obviously not, the dom does it for his/her own pleasure.
That this act also involves the sub's pleasure is entirely secondary and is there only to either make the sub look bad, like "look how pathetic you are, to cum like that with what I just did to you" or to make the dom feel powerful, "I did that to you only using my foot, you loser, imagine what the rest of me might be like."

Is giving oral sex to a ties up person nessacerily a submissive act? Would Jezera be a sub if she tied up Alexia and ate her out?

Necessarily, no. But, when it isn't the scene and tone make it very bloody obvious.
The only real dom reason to do it is to go down the mind-break/corruption route of someone in sexual denial.
Assuming no relationship/emotional connection, there are far better ways to either make the dom feel powerful or the sub feel controlled. Especially oral on a woman, you can't even really threaten with teeth like you could on a man.
Apart from the dom actually enjoying eating pussy of course - again, that the sub might enjoy it is entirely secondary.
Or perhaps that cunni is an especial weakness/kink of Alexia's.

I think what you're getting mixed up with is the word pleasure.
In my original explanation I used the word pleasure to mean "getting what you want in a sexual encounter" and not physical sexual enjoyment.
How a dom views pleasure of his/her sub. Pleasure in the sub can be enjoyable to the dom because the sub is controlled by it, not because they're enjoying it and having a good time (that'd be for someone in a relationship).
Have you ever read Wheel of Time? I will assume you have and will recall to you one of the Forsaken, I think Semirhage, whose most effective method of torture was pleasure. It can be used to control a person, just like pain, and is much more difficult to resist (it's just realistically much harder to find and deliver pleasure than it is pain but, cheaty magic OPOP).
So, sexual enjoyment/pleasure inflicted on a sub by a dom is done to control them, not to make them happy.

 

[T51bwinterized]

Obviously not, the dom does it for his/her own pleasure.
That this act also involves the sub's pleasure is entirely secondary and is there only to either make the sub look bad, like "look how pathetic you are, to cum like that with what I just did to you" or to make the dom feel powerful, "I did that to you only using my foot, you loser, imagine what the rest of me might be like."


Necessarily, no. But, when it isn't the scene and tone make it very bloody obvious.
The only real dom reason to do it is to go down the mind-break/corruption route of someone in sexual denial.
Assuming no relationship/emotional connection, there are far better ways to either make the dom feel powerful or the sub feel controlled. Especially oral on a woman, you can't even really threaten with teeth like you could on a man.
Apart from the dom actually enjoying eating pussy of course - again, that the sub might enjoy it is entirely secondary.
Or perhaps that cunni is an especial weakness/kink of Alexia's.

I think what you're getting mixed up with is the word pleasure.
In my original explanation I used the word pleasure to mean "getting what you want in a sexual encounter" and not physical sexual enjoyment.
How a dom views pleasure of his/her sub. Pleasure in the sub can be enjoyable to the dom because the sub is controlled by it, not because they're enjoying it and having a good time (that'd be for someone in a relationship).
Have you ever read Wheel of Time? I will assume you have and will recall to you one of the Forsaken, I think Semirhage, whose most effective method of torture was pleasure. It can be used to control a person, just like pain, and is much more difficult to resist (it's just realistically much harder to find and deliver pleasure than it is pain but, cheaty magic OPOP).
So, sexual enjoyment/pleasure inflicted on a sub by a dom is done to control them, not to make them happy.

Okay, so say you're in a relationship with a sub. She loves you and you love her. She likes it that you're dominant in charge. You tell her that you want to do so a scene with her that night and that she is expected to cuff herself to the bed and gag herself. You come home, and reveal you went out and bought that sex toy she was excited about and then use it on her. She cums many times while bound and her body is being toyed with. Then, you let her out of the restraints and tell her you love her.

Are you the dom or the sub in this encounter?

 

[T51bwinterized]

Wait are you implying you can't also be in a romantic relationship with a sub too? BRO. That's pretty sus right there.

 

[kurupt87]

You do realise that basically everything you've said is because you've chosen for Rowan to be sexually submissive, right?

That list was demonstrating the imbalance in content availability between dom and sub Rowan, not that I got the scenes.

As I said later in the post you quoted, I have two playthroughs.
One where he is dom and is played as a power fantasy avatar for me, the player, and unfortunately gets very little content. Those five characters worth from my list.
Perhaps I could add some characters from the other list if I don't read the text but that pretty much defeats the purpose of the medium, and it's too bloody late now that I already have anyway.

And one where he is sub and is played as a victim of a perverse god that has some control of him, me the player, and can barely turn around before a new cunt that I, the player, force him to much on with attendant Queen to worship appears, with the odd cock to salivate over too - which is sometimes attached to the aforementioned Queen's. I don't really enjoy this playthrough, far far too much femdom.
I'd much rather I force him to bend over for some manly NPC dude who can be an impromptu stand in for me, the player, than some chick. Femdom over a guy leaves nobody in the scene for me to empathise with.

My problem isn't that the submissive content exists for those that want to play Rowan that way.
My problem is that the submissive content so heavily outweighs the dom content.

 

[errte13]

As far I am concerned, the dominant is the one who is leading, all other points, being self serving or loving etc, are irrelevant to the definition being dominant.

 

[Snugglepuff]

and unfortunately gets very little content.

That's been covered in this thread before, and even very recently.

 

[T51bwinterized]

That list was demonstrating the imbalance in content availability between dom and sub Rowan, not that I got the scenes.

As I said later in the post you quoted, I have two playthroughs.
One where he is dom and is played as a power fantasy avatar for me, the player, and unfortunately gets very little content. Those five characters worth from my list.
Perhaps I could add some characters from the other list if I don't read the text but that pretty much defeats the purpose of the medium, and it's too bloody late now that I already have anyway.

And one where he is sub and is played as a victim of a perverse god that has some control of him, me the player, and can barely turn around before a new cunt that I, the player, force him to much on with attendant Queen to worship appears, with the odd cock to salivate over too - which is sometimes attached to the aforementioned Queen's. I don't really enjoy this playthrough, far far too much femdom.
I'd much rather I force him to bend over for some manly NPC dude who can be an impromptu stand in for me, the player, than some chick. Femdom over a guy leaves nobody in the scene for me to empathise with.

My problem isn't that the submissive content exists for those that want to play Rowan that way.
My problem is that the submissive content so heavily outweighs the dom content.

Okay, but how do relationships work? Are Daddy Doms not dominant because they derive enjoyment from caring for their subs?

 

[kurupt87]

Okay, so say you're in a relationship with a sub. She loves you and you love her. She likes it that you're dominant in charge. You tell her that you want to do so a scene with her that night and that she is expected to cuff herself to the bed and gag herself. You come home, and reveal you went out and bought that sex toy she was excited about and then use it on her. She cums many times while bound and her body is being toyed with. Then, you let her out of the restraints and tell her you love her.

Are you the dom or the sub in this encounter?

Without more context it's hard to say - why am I doing this? Is it her birthday, has she been a good pet, am I just a loving husband? etc

But, I'm inclined to say that I'd be the dom because I'm the one who has decided what is happening, I want to grant her sexual pleasure.
But, on a dom scale of 1 to 10 it'd be a 1 - not really any different dom-level-wise from a normal sexual encounter between two people that don't know what they want. The only thing spicing it up is the paraphernalia.
Not bothered because it is too tame to be interesting sex wise, all the scene's power and passion would come from the emotional connection, not the action.

So, I'm in charge which makes me the top but, all I'm getting out of it is giving pleasure to the one I love. Not hugely satisfying, on the lustful level that the dom/sub dynamic exists on.
This example is a mashup of making love and bondage dom/sub, it is perfect for those two involved (because it is their emotions in play) but for everybody else as voyeuristic observers it is worse than pure love making or pure BDSM (the lovey side makes the BDSM tame, the BDSM makes the love making too freaky).

The love and emotional bond between them enable the sub and dom to do things for each other that they would not for another.

Wait are you implying you can't also be in a romantic relationship with a sub too? BRO. That's pretty sus right there.

No, that is not what I am saying.

 

[kurupt87]

Okay, but how do relationships work? Are Daddy Doms not dominant because they derive enjoyment from caring for their subs?

They are less dominant, they are not not dominant though - it's a scale. This is obvious dude.

Compare Qail (I think? the adventurer party dude that Rowan can bend over for) to Andras.
Andras is obviously more dominant than Qail but Qail himself is obviously dominant.

 

[T51bwinterized]

They are less dominant, they are not not dominant though - it's a scale. This is obvious dude.

Compare Qail (I think? the adventurer party dude that Rowan can bend over for) to Andras.
Andras is obviously more dominant than Qail but Qail himself is obviously dominant.

Is he? He's more "Domineering", but he'd actually be a pretty horrible dominant in most respects. His basic problem is that he has no self-regulation. Is a dominant with a more aggresive persona but weak self regulation more dominant?

And if going out of your way to pleasure the sub when you're the one in the dominant position is still an act of dominance (just less so according to you), how is it different if Rowan has Shaya bound up and he chooses to impose pelasure on her. Wouldn't that still be a dominant act according to your definition?

Regarding if Daddy Doms are less dominant let's do another hypothetical.

We have two doms and two subs.

Dom A is a Daddy Dom who excersizes power with sweetness and care and is always concerned about her pleasure. But, he has a lot of power. He controls her orgasms at all times, has rules for her day to day life, decides her appearance, has rules about how she talks, etc etc.

Dom B is like a domineering dude who likes to force his sub to have sex in the positions he likes so he gets more pleasure. but, otherwise is unconcerned with exercising power on his sub.

Degree of Power and Control vs Motive/Emotional Reaction to it. What makes for the greater degree of dominance?

 

[pppjjj]

Dom A is a Daddy Dom who excersizes power with sweetness and care and is always concerned about her pleasure. But, he has a lot of power. He controls her orgasms at all times, has rules for her day to day life, decides her appearance, has rules about how she talks, etc etc.

I'd say that' s abuse though, as there is such a thing as excess of dominance.
It s fine in a game, but not irl.

 

[T51bwinterized]

I'd say that' s abuse though, as there is such a thing as excess of dominance.

Depends on the sub. I've had subs in the past who'd balk at that, but also others who really get into that kind of excessive amount of control. As a general rule though, such a thing is more common in a married D/s dynamic where it can be more effortlessly extended to home life.

Also more common in short bursts. A sub who finds that enjoyable for a short time frame might not find it enjoyable for a longer time frame.

Still, the basic RACK principle applies. If she A. understands the challenges associated B. knowingly consents to them C. He executes the role without deviation and with basic concern for her mental safety, it's not an abuse of power.