- Apr 26, 2017
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Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.07] [Vénus Noire]
- Aug 14, 2018
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Oh, that sounds pretty neat! One question, though...
What if the detox "fails"? Because I do like Alexia and Rowan together, but... I'm not inclined to give up Jezera for it, considering how it broadens Alexia's horizons. Will that lock off future X'Zaratl content, or will she still do her best to enjoy Alexia/Rowan so long as they're otherwise still together and happy? Alexia has to dip below 50 relationship to start the NTR route, but she doesn't have to stay there currently, nor does it prevent their relationship from recovering, so you can enjoy the best of both worlds. Though, I understand if that's more of a "It's a rare situation that's too much trouble to prevent from happening" thing rather than an "intended behavior" thing, and so not worth designing around.
(Also, was the "below 50 relationship" condition always there? If so, I totally forgot about it this time around...)
- Jan 7, 2021
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- May 13, 2018
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So, this has probably been talked about already back when the route was first released, but... Is it just me, or is Werden's route kind of the worst of all worlds? It seems like it could be the best for the Goddess, but nobody else.
The incompetent nobility, who starve the peasantry during the famine, allowed bandits to run unchecked, let the Duke become a Prothean puppet, and allowed you to spend a year conquering the kingdom, are the primary ones who escape. The peasants too unlucky to be born to blue blood or to serve them are left behind for a serious sacking, before being left to the wise guidance of Duke Raeve - a man who was a gutless coward before Jereza graced him with her presence, and who has the mind of a particularly bright turnip now. Patricia wasn't exactly a "people person", but she at least had administrative experience and a vision for how to redesign the city.
Duke Werden, the man who is quite literally responsible for the events of the game (had the Baron given Rowan his keep like he planned, the twins could never have kidnapped him like this) gets out pretty much consequence-free, the only "harm" done to him being that he's forced to bend his pride rather than condemn everyone to death. Marianne, the woman who is likely the one most responsible for the dismal state of kingdom, considering that she was the one making all the real decisions (including sending their only army to its death) also escapes, albeit not likely in a position of power anymore. Jacques, the best hope for change, dies, as does your staunchest non-demonic ally.
And at the end of it all, the hardliners have the best proof possible that any deviation from Solansia's order can't be tolerated; the greatest dirt general did betray them for demons, and their fiercest advocate, Werden, will be a primary figure in cleaning up your mess. How does this end with any chance for fixing any of the dire problems that plagued the kingdom before you set it on fire? It seems that any regime that arises from this will inevitably be a thoroughly reactionary one.
The route might be best for restoring Solansia's order, but I don't really see any way it could end up good, no matter how badly it screws with the Twins. Jacques still seems like the better choice for "good", even if it means you're going to have to do all the heavy lifting to tear down the Twin's new empire.
The incompetent nobility, who starve the peasantry during the famine, allowed bandits to run unchecked, let the Duke become a Prothean puppet, and allowed you to spend a year conquering the kingdom, are the primary ones who escape. The peasants too unlucky to be born to blue blood or to serve them are left behind for a serious sacking, before being left to the wise guidance of Duke Raeve - a man who was a gutless coward before Jereza graced him with her presence, and who has the mind of a particularly bright turnip now. Patricia wasn't exactly a "people person", but she at least had administrative experience and a vision for how to redesign the city.
Duke Werden, the man who is quite literally responsible for the events of the game (had the Baron given Rowan his keep like he planned, the twins could never have kidnapped him like this) gets out pretty much consequence-free, the only "harm" done to him being that he's forced to bend his pride rather than condemn everyone to death. Marianne, the woman who is likely the one most responsible for the dismal state of kingdom, considering that she was the one making all the real decisions (including sending their only army to its death) also escapes, albeit not likely in a position of power anymore. Jacques, the best hope for change, dies, as does your staunchest non-demonic ally.
And at the end of it all, the hardliners have the best proof possible that any deviation from Solansia's order can't be tolerated; the greatest dirt general did betray them for demons, and their fiercest advocate, Werden, will be a primary figure in cleaning up your mess. How does this end with any chance for fixing any of the dire problems that plagued the kingdom before you set it on fire? It seems that any regime that arises from this will inevitably be a thoroughly reactionary one.
The route might be best for restoring Solansia's order, but I don't really see any way it could end up good, no matter how badly it screws with the Twins. Jacques still seems like the better choice for "good", even if it means you're going to have to do all the heavy lifting to tear down the Twin's new empire.
Has one of the commenters who comented to much in this matter, its not just you, the Werden´s route, in the way it is, is a masochistic choice that relies in promises of what it might change in the future, its the one route Rowan gains nothing , the twins are set up has basicly untouchable and all knowing, and it ends with only having things taken away and effort wasted. Excluding things like saying "Rowan weakened the orcs by taking the noble woman", since its not an exclusive of the route, the only result it brings its, all potential allies Rowan made are either dead, worse than dead (Delane) , or hate him (Werden and his people).
It was commented before i think, unless it leads to some great stuff in the future, Werden's route is only there to show that in seeds of chaos, trying to be overly heroic will only leave you beaten and alone where even going lesser "evil" will leave the city in better hands, get you in better graces with the twins, and give you a new girl. You can even save Delane from her fate worse than death by simply not going with Werden and letting her go. Will we ever find her again has a allie? Probably not but she at least gets out of danger for now.
Now, i am sure that some interesting plot will come from werden's route..eventually , i do not know what will it be or if it will be the type of thing i personaly will prefer, but the writers have showed that they know what they are doing.
This isn't quite what I mean; I don't mind Rowan getting less than nothing out of this. A "Sacrifice everything for the Greater Good" option seems perfectly in theme with the game to me.
But...
Werden is, frankly, a total ass who will think nothing of the sacrifices needed to uphold Solansia's order, even if it means entombing everyone in cement made from the bones of peasants. He can win the war, sure. But what about what comes after? He's going to be one of the leading voices in answering that question, by virtue of leading the kingdom's nobility, and the man couldn't even make an allowance for a bonafide hero. I don't see that changing when said hero goes and proves his point.
If instead of Werden we were instead siding with, say, a very holy priest who was very compassionate to peasants but very opposed to demons - that would be different. It would be clear as to why this was the "Good" option, even if it still turned Rowan's life to ash to pursue; such a person would be embodying the positive aspects of Solansia's rule. But Werden demonstrates everything wrong with it, from what we've seen so far.
Plus, like, the one good thing from the sack was that all of the old nobility were dead, impoverished, or bending the knee. In Werden's route, that doesn't happen (except for titular nobles who no longer had holdings outside the city); all of them get out, despite the fact that they had already let the kingdom rot to this extent. They're running from the consequences of their own actions, while it's the people they leave behind who pay the price. Why, precisely, shouldn't we expect them to end up in the exact same place a decade after the Twin's fall? Heck, it only took them eight years to ruin the kingdom after Karnas died!
It feels like we're making a great sacrifice to save all of the worst things of the kingdom, is what stands out to me. It's the most defiant route, to be sure, but doing this just to spite the Twins just seems like... A remarkably bad idea. There were better people to save.
That.. is actualy a good point , and looking at it, its true enough, the people get quite literaly fucked while the ones that are responsible for the problem go on to be la resistance. Nothing good will come out of that
I just wish Rowan could made Werden suffer more... He got off easy dying too soon
If Rowan tells him he fucked his precious daughter Werden gets really agitated and later starts crying. I think it is quite miserable end for someone like him
I have made similar complaints in the past and I still hold the opinion Werden's route currently feels like it is either for those seeking maximum dramatic emotional angst or prizing an inability to compromise as if it was some kind of meaningful moral virtue. But I believe the devs said they will eventually rework and polish some aspects of the Rastedel sack, including making it possible for Werden's route to get better results during the sack, so for now I will instead focus on the arguments of why Werden's route could still be worthwhile.
First, like you yourself admitted, both Werden and Marianne are huge assets for any coming war, you may not like them as people, but you'd still be happy to see them come at first light on the fifth day. The horrors that are inflicted upon Rastedel are terrible, but these character surviving have the potential of helping prevent something even worse in the future.
Second, regarding the point about Werden's leadership after the war, the man is old and ill, he still has the spirit to give it all in one more war, but I don't see him living to perpetuate his rigid ideals. And even then, I think that Rowan managed to get to him, even if just a little bit. Even if he is obsessed with order, by now I think he must be realizing an order ruled by a decadent nobility is unsustainable, I definitely expect him to lead the resistance with an iron fist and trim the fat with any nobility that doesn't recognize their duty to their people.
Third, even if most likely Werden's resistance will be holed up in some mountainous duchy, that is still one less place the Twins' corruption will not touch, rather than them taking the entire kingdom unopposed.
Of course, like I said at the start, I still think Werden's route isn't very attractive even for what it is, if I want to do the most good, a well administered Jacques or controlled Patricia routes, at least for the time being, seem to have the potential of letting Rowan smoothen the transition as much as possible and reduce the total suffering.
I think if nothing else, Werden's route should have more symbolic victories, even if those don't imediatelly add to more than what you can get from the other routes. I think something analogous to "the girl in red" from Schindler's list would work amazingly with the themes at play (as in, regardless of how well the sack goes, "she" would only not be there if Rowan did Werden's route).
So, I'm going to be doing the whole "argue point-by-point" thing here, but I just want to be clear from the start; these are worthwhile points you raise, and I'm just pushing back to explain why I, personally, don't find them satisfying in the broader context.
As for the sacking, though - honestly, so long as there is a sack, and the nobles get to escape with their lives, their freedom, and "a few important heirlooms", how much you can mitigate it isn't really going to change my opinion. It's not the severity that irks me, but who suffers the consequences of the nobles having let things get to this point - the point where a couple of nobodies holed up in a wasteland manage to successfully conquer their kingdom. The people who worked for a living lost everything, while the people responsible get to play karma houdini.
But what will that mean in practice? Rowan is in a position of influence currently (a stronger position of influence if he chooses literally anyone but Werden, at that), and has already demonstrated that he can use that position to mitigate the damage that he does - he can feed the occupied villages that the nobles left to starve, he can stop the rape gangs the orcs are accustomed to, and even in this failed gambit he still protects a heck of a lot more of the city than the Twins would have spared on their own. To say nothing of the fact that he prevented a doomed defense that would have gotten everyone in the city slaughtered, and his rapid advance after the destruction of the enemy's army in the field meant that they ultimately killed a fraction of the soldiers that a proper war would have, even with the tragedy that followed the battle.
So what kind of atrocity could Werden and Marianne possibly prevent that Rowan couldn't steer the Twins away from on more practical grounds, or sabotage himself if need be? One dire enough that it's worth condemning the continent to suffer Werden and Marianne's continued influence in the world? Especially since I doubt that the other routes are going to strip that level of agency from the player. I don't doubt that it will be easier to avoid a variety of unpleasant scenarios if they're there to work against the Twins - but I doubt that they'll be required. And if they're not required, than that's just taking a shortcut that's not worth the cost.
Perhaps this experience has softened him, but I didn't get that impression - at most, I think he'd be inclined to pardon Rowan before sending him back to the farm. But even if he goes beyond that and actually decides to finally acknowledge Rowan, that's not what the kingdom needs; it needs real, lasting reforms to ensure at least some social mobility. To ensure that dead weight like Raeve can sink, and that talented, ambitious individuals can at least dream of becoming the lesser nobility.
And I can certainly see him sidelining the ineffective and the scheming, but... I don't think he can do more than that, honestly. Because at the end of the day, he's still just the leader of a faction instead of a proper king, and he'd be burning his own influence with the nobility if he carried out the kind of purge that would be required; his is a "first amongst equals" kind of deal, and if he alienates his own allies (plenty of whom would be considered worthless and incompetent themselves), they'll simply stop following his orders and rally behind someone more to their tastes. And besides - even the incompetent have knights sworn to them and levies that would answer their call. If he offs them just because they routinely make terrible decisions, their men won't necessarily follow him, and he's ended up driving off a substantial part of the army he could otherwise raise.
But if he doesn't hang them, if he just strips them of their influence over the war while still leaving them alive... Then we end up in this same position again. Maybe not a day after the war ends, maybe not a month, but eventually they regain their power for the reason that they're powerful now; because they own fertile lands or rich mines, and can afford to support a sizable number of knights. Only King Werden, imbued with the power to strip them of those lands and give them to someone more deserving, could change that - but King Werden would be terrible for all sorts of other reasons. And even then, that only fixes this generation, not the next, or the one after that; once a line goes rotten, and they cease to teach their children that nobility comes with actual responsibilities instead of just privileges, it's nearly impossible to recover.
And as for the possibility of him dying... Well, his sons don't seem much better. One was ready to assaulted Delane for trying to persuade them to not get everyone killed, and in the other timeline, did waste the lives of their best knights on a futile charge. That doesn't speak to intelligence, or the ability to adapt to new circumstances.
Of course, faction leadership, unlike their titles, isn't hereditary; it's entirely possible that someone new inherits his coalition. But the prestige required to command that sort of respect almost demands that his successor be someone who built their name during this new war - and wouldn't he be entrusting command to someone who thinks similarly to him? He might not be choosing positions based on ideology, but it's unlikely that he'd trust people he frequently disagrees with. And like I said before; Rowan's high-profile betrayal will be sending a clear message to a lot of people that they shouldn't trust dirt generals.
While certainly, we do see the Twin's reign associated with some heinous things... Honestly, the Twins seem pretty preoccupied with what's right in front of them, and they don't particularly seem to care about carrying the banner of Chaos to any great extent. Outside of maintaining orc garrisons to avoid rebellion (with all the problems that a garrison of orcs no doubt brings, admittedly), does anything necessarily change in the outlying keeps and villages? Those small, tight-knit communities are undoubtedly going to stick to their traditions; it'll just ensure that those who don't fit in will move to the capital, now that they have a choice. It seems unlikely to me that they'd want anything but tribute from that duchy.
And further, this presupposes that the Twin's corruption is entirely malign, and that Solansia's influence is entirely benign - but we know that that duchy will be hosting a ton of corrupt nobles. Maybe they won't be living down to their worst caricatures, but given that they were already starving the peasants so that they could feast, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they duchy's food was all confiscated for the army's use, leaving all the peasants who actually lived there to die.
I agree. If Werden's caravan had some section - any section - of the population that you actually wanted to see successfully escape the city, it would be a lot more palatable to me. Not that I can really think of any other group in particular that would be important to get out of the city entirely, instead of just to a safe zone. Priests, maybe, but we haven't been given much reason to be sympathetic to them.
- Oct 17, 2017
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If you'll excuse a history diversion for a moment. One of the more fateful events in middle ages history is Salah Ad-Din's choice to free Guy de Lusignan, the king by marriage of Jerusalem, after his capture at Hattin.
Salah reasoned a freed enemy king was not a threat, because he had taken Jerusalem itself and essentially beheaded the kingdom.
But, we know this choice led to disaster. The still alive Guy rallied the surviving lords and knights of Jerusalem to his banner and laid seige to Acre. Salah tried to put down the army before they were reinforced, but Guy was still in the field when the king's of France and England arrived to reinforce Guy.
Of course, that is only relevant to part of the argument here. As for the rest, consider two questions.
1. Are the twins DONE after taking Rastedel?
2. Have the twins shown themselves the most benevolent of conquerors?
Salah reasoned a freed enemy king was not a threat, because he had taken Jerusalem itself and essentially beheaded the kingdom.
But, we know this choice led to disaster. The still alive Guy rallied the surviving lords and knights of Jerusalem to his banner and laid seige to Acre. Salah tried to put down the army before they were reinforced, but Guy was still in the field when the king's of France and England arrived to reinforce Guy.
Of course, that is only relevant to part of the argument here. As for the rest, consider two questions.
1. Are the twins DONE after taking Rastedel?
2. Have the twins shown themselves the most benevolent of conquerors?
- Oct 17, 2017
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Addendum note: There is valuable feedback here, and I encourage the discussion to continue. As stated before, I don't intend for the present text of the plotline to remain set in stone.
- Aug 3, 2017
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Since the implementation of the "Sacking of Rastedel" arc, I still haven't gotten around to it after all this time. I hear about it all the time and it sounds fascinating. I guess I'm just unlucky as I keep hitting various softlocks before then on different versions of the game. My last solid attempt was back several versions ago where I wasn't even able to complete the "Orc Encampment" arc (1) due to being weaponless (with no way to acquire a replacement weapon to properly initiate any of the plotlines).
(1) I have successfully completed this arc many times in past versions in various ways. When playing SoC, I don't save scum so when random things happen -- both good or bad -- I just roll with it. For that last attempt, I recall that Rowan lost his main weapon during a random event, and with the store system deactivated, I wasn't able to acquire a replacement weapon from the Cla-Clan nor was I able to trigger a random event that gave Rowan a weapon before giving up on that run.
My understanding is that the "store" is still offline. In addition and unless I misunderstood, many of Bloodmeen's upgrades are no longer working correctly in the latest releases as well. That's unfortunate. Eh, I'm sure the dev team will get on that. I mean, system-wise it's very important, but not as important as the story that's behind SoC that brings all sorts players into the game.
Oh, I did have a question though. I've heard that X'Zaratl (sp?) got lots of new content (in and out of scenes). As one of the players that doesn't like futa content, if Rowan and Alexia spurns her advances as before, will it continue to gate X'Zaratl's (non-sexual event / scenes) content as before? I've heard, but have few details, that the succubus is a lot more interesting and is less flat as a character. There are many minor, one-shot characters in the game so having something substantial for X'Zaratl who isn't supposed to be a background, throwaway character would be interesting. Those types of interactions with the residents of Bloodmeen (even if they're not sexual scenes) breathes more life into the game after all. It would be a shame if turning down the succubus's advances early on would completely remove further non-sexual encounters with the said character (or at least for now). X'Zaratl seems like a fascinating character, but I still wish to avoid any "dick girl" scenes on playthroughs of the game regardless.
(1) I have successfully completed this arc many times in past versions in various ways. When playing SoC, I don't save scum so when random things happen -- both good or bad -- I just roll with it. For that last attempt, I recall that Rowan lost his main weapon during a random event, and with the store system deactivated, I wasn't able to acquire a replacement weapon from the Cla-Clan nor was I able to trigger a random event that gave Rowan a weapon before giving up on that run.
My understanding is that the "store" is still offline. In addition and unless I misunderstood, many of Bloodmeen's upgrades are no longer working correctly in the latest releases as well. That's unfortunate. Eh, I'm sure the dev team will get on that. I mean, system-wise it's very important, but not as important as the story that's behind SoC that brings all sorts players into the game.
Oh, I did have a question though. I've heard that X'Zaratl (sp?) got lots of new content (in and out of scenes). As one of the players that doesn't like futa content, if Rowan and Alexia spurns her advances as before, will it continue to gate X'Zaratl's (non-sexual event / scenes) content as before? I've heard, but have few details, that the succubus is a lot more interesting and is less flat as a character. There are many minor, one-shot characters in the game so having something substantial for X'Zaratl who isn't supposed to be a background, throwaway character would be interesting. Those types of interactions with the residents of Bloodmeen (even if they're not sexual scenes) breathes more life into the game after all. It would be a shame if turning down the succubus's advances early on would completely remove further non-sexual encounters with the said character (or at least for now). X'Zaratl seems like a fascinating character, but I still wish to avoid any "dick girl" scenes on playthroughs of the game regardless.
Yeah I get that, no problem. Sometimes the things we pick apart the most are the things we could agree with in a different day.
I agree with you that from a "fairness" perspective, Werden's route is easily the worst. The only counter-argument is that sometimes justice comes at too steep of a cost, and not everyone will agree that in every situation a fairer distribution of the suffering is more important than the reduction of said suffering. But even under that rationale, it is hard to support Werden's route because, even if the game says a good ammount of the population was evacuated (and it doesn't help that the more culpable people are among those evacuated), the fact that Werden's route currently incurs the most brutal version of the sack doesn't really give the impression that it really spared more people from more suffering than a well executed Jacques route, where even if no one was evacuated, the sack was so heavily mitigated that it could have even resulted into less total suffering. Being able to mitigate the sack in Werden's route would at least give it some legs to stand on while now it basically has none.
And Rowan has also demonstrated that his influence basically means nothing in the face of the whims of the Twins. Sure, Rowan came short from accomplishing in a few weeks the basically impossible task of getting a city like Rastedel to completely and unconditionally surrender to a demon army, but even if Rowan had somehow managed to do it, would that really have stopped them from sacking the city anyway? Much of their demeanor during the pre-sack leads me to believe they would have done it either way and were just looking for an excuse to do it, they were just playing with Rowan and feeding him false promises to see how much they could get out of him, as they have been doing for much of the game.
My point is that in the end Rowan's influence doesn't matter because there isn't a happy ending with the Twins in charge. Sure, it can help him mitigate the damage the Twins will do while they have power, but if for that he has to slowly take out every single person capable of opposing the Twins then he is dooming his own cause.
I raised this exact same concern in the past, jokingly said they would have to straight up prevent a "rape of Nanking" type event for it to be worthwhile. But yeah, on a meta level we know that's extremely unlikely because it would imply every single other route has to suffer something even more fucked up than the worst possible Rastedel sack, and I'm not sure that would even be a good decision by the devs since a lot of the fandom are more interested in the "fun evil" fantasy rather than a "disturbingly cruel and depressively bleak" scenario.
Unfortunately the same argument applies to the idea that maybe Werden and Marianne could be essential to defeat the Twins, we know this is a videogame and victory is still possible even without them because this game has other routes. Devs could pull some bullshit like if Werden stays alive you don't have to sacrifice a more likable character later into the story, but again if that character is really likable and they die in every route but Werden's route, I feel that's just gonna piss everyone else off in the attempt to arbitrarly validate that one route everybody agreed was a bad idea.
Also from a technical perspective, we know the devs are probably not gonna make a whole different game just for Werden's route, so it would kinda suck if their future benefits felt too "momentaneous", imagine having to wait until the climax of Chapter 2 to get any gratification from having chosen Werden's route. Ideally I think Werden's resistance should give Rowan a continous stream of benefits throughout act 2 as he takes a more active role in saboutaging the Twins, their holdings become an evacuation route for refugees, they keep the forces of the Twins preoccupied (so they can't just go around pillaging the countryside), etc. But that might be too much work for a single odd route.
Lets not forget that Werden was already planning the coup before Rowan showed up, Werden is obsessed with Solansia's Order as a concept, he is not fond of the state of the current nobility. Sure, if Rowan never showed up and he succeeded at his coup, he would probably only have changed the Baron and at most done some very minor anti-corruption reforms, but now that it is clear it is gonna be war time again, he is probably gonna be much less tolerant with decadent nobles.
And I do believe Werden has the power to whip the remaining nobility into whatever he wants, he is the military guy of a kingdom that just woke up to an all-out demon invasion, the soft nobles are scared shitless and they are gonna flock towards whoever has the biggest army and the spine to be a leader, Werden being the only one that matches the description. Trying to oust him would be suicide as that would leave a fractured nobility having to fend for themselves against the Twins, they may not like him but I can see most of the nobles swearing their forces to Werden, even if it ends up with him putting them in the sidelines (not consulting them or only dealing with the more competent members of their families). I expect him to be able to be basically a dictator with his resistance.
Of course that like you said, he wouldn't really be able to go around executing people left and right, and neither should he probably. At most he could probably change the heads of the families and keep things right for a generation or two and even that much wouldn't solve the systemical issues of hereditary inheritance. But that doesn't nullify the merits of opposing the Twins' cruelty and the chaotic world they would create.
Yeah, meaningful change from Werden's part would require him being willing to admit his son is not the best and most reasonable leader, which does require a lot of optimism regarding Werden's possible character growth. But lets keep in mind that Rowan's betrayal is not yet common knowledge, nor would I expect it to become anytime soon, I think Werden will try to keep Rowan's involvement with the Twins a secret for the time being and he only promised to hold Rowan accountable after it was all done, which I don't really think is a promise he will live up to.
The Twins may not have the time or disposition to ravage every single village in the kingdom, but like you said they still host orc bands and demons that follow the culture of chaos, what do you think is gonna happen when the demonic tax collector rolls around and takes a liking to the elder's daughter? Or when an orc unit needs to spend the night in one of the villages to resupply on their route to somewhere else? Of course you could make the argument that corrupt soldiers could do the same regardless of what they believe in, but in general at least followers of Solansia would have such behavior reproached, while followers of Kairos might see it as only right for the strong to take from the weak.
I think one of the main dilemmas of the game is presented as the choice between the organizational benefits of a predetermined order versus the improvement of individuals in a meritocratic system. I think this choice depends a lot on the personal beliefs of each person and I personally lean more towards the first, but I need to make an argument here against the "Might makes right" system the game displays: it does not work.
We already see it several times throughout the game, when Rowan makes deals to help weaker individuals in exchange of favors, or promotes undeserving underlings for their loyalty rather than their talents, or fixes fights to ensure his preferred option wins. "Might makes right" does not lead to a truly meritocratic system because it never measures just your talents on the task you need to accomplish, but rather it puts more emphasis on your ability to screw over your competition. This only leads to a society that focuses on saboutage and distrust, which would inherently grow more and more self-destructive without really improving individuals in constructive ways.
Of course the negatives of a completely stationary order with no accountability are already well shown in the game, with the presence of a decadent nobility that weakens the whole kingdom. Both extremes are terrible, but somewhere in between, with the alternatives the game presents, I lean more towards the "Order" side.
Ideally one could ponder ways of "beating" either system, what if in a stable order the ruling class was mindwashed into having to do their best for their subjects, instilling into them permanent psychological accountability they could not escape. Or in a "might makes right" system, there was an almighty capable of creating unbreakable rules that kept all competitions "clean".
Being honest, in a completely humanitarian sense, I think there are few people I wouldn't want to successfully escape the city. Even if there are safe zones that manage to last through the sack, I doubt life is about to get any better for the citizens of Rastedel for a long time, we have seen nothing to show that demons and orcs are any kinder as rulers than conquerors. But it would be nice to have better symbols of Werden's evacuation meaning something.
Of course, Marianne is a powerful individual who can greatly enhance any force she's part of, and Werden appears to be one of the few competent generals employed by the Six Realms. Well, Five Realms now. I don't doubt their ability to make military contributions. But...
For the first question, does everything end when peace is restored? Do the famines end? Are the dead peasants resurrected? The burnt villages rebuilt, the sacked manors refurnished? There's going to be a long reconstruction period, both for the pre-existing problems and the new ones the Twins built. And when that happens, who is Werden going to favor? The nobles who he relies on support, and who are at the head of Solansia's Order? Or the peasants, who are the ones who can barely survive the remaining season and need immediate aid? And even if he isn't cruel and short-sighted enough to stiff them, can the same be said for every noble at his side, who he relies on to carry out his suggestions for how to handle their own territory? Because they didn't exactly make a great impression back in Rastadel.
And, for that matter... Does the Kingdom's own wishes even matter after this? Because it was already deep under Prothea's influence before this - and now, Prothean troops are going to be at the front of retaking it. The food and supplies to rebuild probably aren't going to be locally sourced either. After something like this, will they be able to maintain even the fiction of independence, or will the decisions made on the ground instead be made in some far-flung court that's more preoccupied with their own problems? Even for rebels with the best of intentions, such arrangements don't tend to work out well for the freedom fighters. At worst, the puppet regime ends up with all the aid going to prop up their own power while their chosen favorites live a life of luxury, and the rubble never gets rebuilt at all.
None of this is worth it if things just go back to the way they were before Rowan left his cell - if that happens, he's just a coward who should have chosen a more dignified death. He can't just ensure the Twins lose, because the Twins would have lost already without him. He has to make sure that the right people win as well, and that means someone who understand that there were more flaws to the old system than "peasants rising above their station".
And as for the Twin's benevolence... Are the Twins immortal? Unbeatable? Is suffering them for a year or five that much worse than a tyrannical or incompetent king from years years past? I mean, I could easily picture Andras ordering one out of every five villages razed in response to a peasant insurrection - but truly, the Twins really do seem preoccupied with what's right in front of them. This isn't an assault from an army of Skordreds, intent on remaking the world - it's an army "lead" by people interested in their own amusement and self-aggrandizement, who see this as a sort of game that lets them demand everyone kneel before them. Andras might be a butcher who kills half the people he wanders across, but that's a problem for the capital - everyone outside his eyesight will likely be fine. Jezera might demand that every pretty boy and girl in the kingdom be brought to her for inspection, but it amounts to a petty distraction at most; she loses interest in her toys quickly, and she leaves them in good enough condition that they can still work afterwards.
And if this was them "playing nice", if they were only holding back enough to get a single, semi-functioning country before demanding that everything past it be burnt... Well, frankly, the Twins are still in a terrible position without him. Their army of orcs are the remnants from the last army to try this "conquer the world" shtick, and were already being harried to destruction by Prothea already when you found them. Daenara was described as an army of her own, and is still out there, as are the other armies. And the Twins have lost the advantage of surprise - the other kingdoms are going to switch to a war footing now.
If the Twins aren't willing to be "reasonable", to stick to things that are appalling-but-not-quite-past-Rowan's-line, then he can simply quit, and those atrocities will be prevented as his side falls apart without him. And yeah, they'll kill him for it, possibly Alexia as well. But they'll still lose. He doesn't need to empower people like Werden to make that happen.
Historically speaking, taking the city without sacking it was probably a fantasy to begin with. As much as Rowan rages, prior to the modern era, this was just how things were done; sacking "only" half the city would have been kinder than anyone would have expected (and one reason I'm glad to be living in the modern era, even if I think social media is going to get us all killed).
He might have lost sight of this in the moment, but what he really wanted was for Rastadel to be taken mostly intact - and that's what he got (ironically, the most damage done was probably at the hands of the fire he set). The people who didn't want to fight to the bitter end appear to have made it to safe zones, and the tools necessary to keep the city running weren't outright destroyed. Did it look as pretty as he had hoped? No, obviously not. This is still an army of demons and orcs taking a major human settlement. But for all his PTSD, he still saved a hell of a lot of people doing it this way.
And, sack aside, what comes after the sack? Are the Twins really in charge of the city now? Or did they hand things off to a human governor (handpicked by Rowan, no less, if he doesn't go with Werden) who lacks their particular tastes and need merely ensure that the quotas are met and the rebels are cowed? Because it looks like they're still going to be reigning from Bloodmeen, and from Jezera's dismissive comments regarding governors, don't really care how the city is run. If the twins are going to be like a hurricane, tearing up a region before blowing past, that might not even be the worst of things - it tears apart the old order, lets Rowan set a framework for a new one, and leaves it to its own devices while a new shiny object catches the Twins eye.
Of course, it's probably not going to be that clean. They probably are going to make new demands of the city that Rowan will be loathe to grant. But how much Rastadel and the other occupied territories suffer is probably going to come down to how well he can manage the Twins - and that, in turn, is easier if they don't treat everything he says as a plot because he let Werden go.
But, that aside, this also presupposes that the Twins stay in charge - but Rowan has recruited plenty of people who are personally loyal to him, and only to the Twins by extension. If he so chooses, he does have the tools he needs to launch an internal rebellion, one that would doom the Twins cause - he's not yet in a position where he could take over with any hope of defeating the humans as well, but he can certainly ensure the Twins lose without relying on Werden.
Personally, I don't mind the idea of another scene like the destruction of the army that could be prevented if you sided with Werden, and think it could enhance the narrative. But, like you say, that would make it more a bright spot on an otherwise doomed timeline in my eyes. In terms of things that might otherwise give me pause... Maybe the Dark Elves demanding the genocide of the Elves as terms for an alliance insisted upon by Jezera? Maybe?
A likable character surviving on Werden's route while dying on others sounds perfectly reasonable to me, though. That tends to be a good vehicle for conveying tragedy (an important element of this story), and it's a tool that's already been used; I like both Jacques and Patricia, but one of them will always die.
On the one hand, the idea of continuous benefits sounds good to me, but on the other... It strikes me that it would be easy for this to become an "informed attribute" at best, and outright counterproductive at worst. I mean, what does that continuous stream look like in terms of mechanics? Lowered thresholds for certain checks, maybe? But that's something that could easily be overlooked.
But it's pretty easy to imagine why this prolonged war would involve a lot more dead orcs on your part (mechanically, lowered recruitment numbers), depopulated villages (lower gold income), and a host of war-related expenses (higher upkeep). And it's still your army taking the brunt of this. But hamstringing your own success doesn't really sound like a fun game, so... I don't know how to make this fun, mechanically coherent, and continuous. Narratively speaking, "only shows up at key moments" sounds like the better way to go.
Just as a point of order, though - it was still "his" nobles who feasted at multiple points during Rastadel's plotline in the middle of a famine, and who offered up a lot of stupid ideas when things started going wrong (admittedly, while they were panicking). To say nothing of the fact that Raeve was amongst his men.
He might believe they need to be better, but he certainly seems more compromising on this point than he is with the peasants.
I just don't see those measures holding after wartime unless he redistributes the actual land, the basis of feudal power. And I just don't see the other nobles accepting that level of power over them - it's something they'd hold dearer than their own lives, as it's the core of what makes their families important. Even they don't care about themselves, they still care about their families.
A rotten peace is worse than a chaotic world, because a chaotic world will always stabilize with time (at least when we're talking about humans); absent external intervention, someone eventually crawls the to the top of the ashes, and forces everyone else into line. It may be costly, it may be painful, and the new peace may be a bitter one, but a new society always rises from the old - humans are fundamentally social creatures who don't enjoy killing each other all the time. The only question is whether the pain is worth it, and from the glimpse we got at the capital, it certainly looks worth it now.
Of course, it would obviously be better to minimize the pain and chaos that replacing the old order would entail. Which is why it's important that Rowan make things as clean as possible, something that a campaign of active resistance from Werden would seem to work against.
I think the cat's out of the bag at this point. Even if Werden was inclined to keep his mouth shut, every noble at the lodge saw him accuse Rowan and lock him up - and even if his camp doesn't talk, there were plenty of people who saw him at the sack, and at the following festivities. It would be extremely strange if they were able to keep the person running things anonymous now that they've taken a city of Rastadel's size.
I'm thinking more of the long-term consequences here than the short-term tragedies. Essentially; will the Twin's influence fundamentally change these communities, or simply subject them to temporary suffering? When the Twins die or are defeated, will these villages have internalized anything from being ruled by Chaos, or will it have been no different than having a particularly cruel lord for a generation?
If there's no fundamental transformation, then whether the mountain duchy holds out or not makes little difference outside of the strategic considerations - they're going be suffering from the war either way. If rule by the Twins did cause them to break more permanently from Solansia's orders, then keeping them from that would present a more meaningful distinction.
One complication here is that nobody in the game (other than Skordred and some orcs) truly follows or cares about "Might Makes Right" - Rowan certainly doesn't, and he's the one running things. The Twins were inclined to cast it aside. Some characters in the game do advocate for it, but always defer back to Rowan because, well, he's the warlord here, and he's actively managing things.
"Might Makes Right" may be their justification, but what it becomes in practice is making cases to Rowan, who chooses based on what he thinks is best. This doesn't differ significantly from an absolute monarchy; the only difference is that Rowan rules by right of continued success, and everyone is free to appeal to him without needing a noble title to back them up.
Of course, it'd completely fall apart after the death of Rowan and the Twins, as a power struggle tears things apart in the absence of a single clear successor, but... Well, that gets back to the part where they don't really follow "Might Makes Right" - if the game went on long enough, they'd certainly ensure that there was an heir competent enough to claim things on their own merit.
I disagree, personally; life as a refugee in that situation would be horrible. They'd literally have nothing but the clothes on their back, be weakened from the long march out of the kingdom, and almost certainly lack any useful skills (a craftsman without their tools isn't much of a craftsman, and they'd be trying to break into an established market without any capital). Most of them would die; those that don't, would be surviving on charity that can't deal with the number of victims.
And this is setting aside the fact that they would be treated with scorn and suspicion by the people they fled to; a country will pat itself on the back for accepting a handful of refugees, but once there are enough that it takes actual effort to do the right thing, they start to resent them and look for excuses to force them along. This is before the rumors start spreading about spies and shapeshifters hiding amongst the refugees, waiting to take down the kingdom by surprise like they took down Rosaria.
Meanwhile, those that stayed... Well, I wouldn't expect it to go well for them, necessarily. But I expect that they'll have homes and food, and that jobs (real jobs, not slave jobs) will soon be arranged for everyone as soon as they work out how much economic capacity was burnt out of the place. And as time goes on, things will go back to relative normal as routines resume, people adapt to their new neighbors, and the Twins learn how much they can play with the city before it starts causing them more problems than fun. As for where things go from there... Well, that depends on the war, I suppose.
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