Oh right, that one. Yeah you have to actually find that and lose to get the loss scene, it's an exception to the rest of the EX loss scenes because it's supposed to be some sort of easter egg I think. Iirc you can get that scene by going into a particular hallway during the escape sequence with the snake girl. Don't remember where exactly but just make sure to explore every path before continuing when you play through that.
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The_Protagonist_Ugh
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Its not about undoing the damage they caused, every less demon is one less demon that can kill another person. Demons created the shitty world, not me. Me attempting to fix the world that demons ruined by exterminating them can't be seen as bad in anyway. I don't see how you made killing mass murdering demons somehow into a desire to feel superior. Isn't that their entire thing? They see humans as lesser and them as superior? There's not a 'case' to kill some demons, every single demon has a case on why you should kill them. There are little to no 'good' ones. Just because you can understand them and gain some type of connection does not change they are mass murderers who only goal is to wipe out humanity, mostly for fun. You physically can't persuade most demons, they will attempt to kill you anyways. They have to like you for them to care. Can you imagine a serial killer kills you, and in the afterlife god says "damn bro shoulda just tried to convince them not to kill you".
TLDR: I am not carrying out "morally justifiable justice", I am a person part of a species another species is happy to genocide and am attempting to save my species by fighting back. Its really that simple. Without super powered porn man, demons and humans will never be able to live together. Its also not my job as the genocided species to try to live with the genocidal species.
On the topic of the current (or vaguely current anyways) conversation, there was a guy who went through and made a list of which demons he'd spare and which he'd kill, and why. Nevart his name was. His post about the chapter 2 girls got nuked for some reason (or at least I can't find it), but I found myself pretty much agreeing with what he said.
In the end, I'm pretty sure there were only TWO spared out of the entire lot, namely Mukuro and Sphinx for being both (A) singular entities and (B) solely focused on Kazuya. The rest, whether for being too dangerous/risky to keep around or having killed far too many people, couldn't be spared.
Exterminating Barghest and Camazotz is basically just pest control (if pests were far more dangerous and could fuck humans to death)
Exterminating Lampas is a mercy killing more than anything (considering "lighting their lamps" is their entire life purpose, and SURELY they'd all be fine giving that up to co-exist with humans)
Exterminating Empuse, Haru & Liz, Nina, Arachne, Titanoboa, and Daji is just desserts considering how many they've killed (to varying degrees of course)
Exterminating Echo is risk management, plain and simple. The risk of getting a bad one far outweighs the chance of getting a good one.
Exterminating Mother Rabbit is definitely debatable, but even just the chance that another person more could've been saved had she not been there...
Mukuro and Sphinx are the only ones who don't have outright confirmed victims, are singular entities instead of entire species, and they only go after Kazuya instead of trying to harm anyone else.
...Oh, right, just realized I forgot about Lucy. Uh... She was a 50/50 I think, depending on whether you think the people she killed in her previous life counts against her or not. I think he leaned towards spare on her though. So... three spares instead of two.
Still a fucking abysmal ratio of "kill to spare" though, so that should say something.
In the end, I'm pretty sure there were only TWO spared out of the entire lot, namely Mukuro and Sphinx for being both (A) singular entities and (B) solely focused on Kazuya. The rest, whether for being too dangerous/risky to keep around or having killed far too many people, couldn't be spared.
Exterminating Barghest and Camazotz is basically just pest control (if pests were far more dangerous and could fuck humans to death)
Exterminating Lampas is a mercy killing more than anything (considering "lighting their lamps" is their entire life purpose, and SURELY they'd all be fine giving that up to co-exist with humans)
Exterminating Empuse, Haru & Liz, Nina, Arachne, Titanoboa, and Daji is just desserts considering how many they've killed (to varying degrees of course)
Exterminating Echo is risk management, plain and simple. The risk of getting a bad one far outweighs the chance of getting a good one.
Exterminating Mother Rabbit is definitely debatable, but even just the chance that another person more could've been saved had she not been there...
Mukuro and Sphinx are the only ones who don't have outright confirmed victims, are singular entities instead of entire species, and they only go after Kazuya instead of trying to harm anyone else.
...Oh, right, just realized I forgot about Lucy. Uh... She was a 50/50 I think, depending on whether you think the people she killed in her previous life counts against her or not. I think he leaned towards spare on her though. So... three spares instead of two.
Still a fucking abysmal ratio of "kill to spare" though, so that should say something.
Wat3rMizu
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You just ignored everything he said? If you don't understand why kazuya killing the demons is wrong you didn't understand the point of shrift at all. Kazuya in true mercy acknowledges the fact that there are some demons are pure evil but he comes to the conclusion that killing all demons is meaningless and would help the evil one, and he literally would not have been able to save his friends or himself had it not been for demons literally helping him throughout the entire game lol. Nekomata designed genocide perfectly with the intent to filter people who just want to kill everything and not understand the story he's trying to tell.
Did you ignore everything I said? I am talking about genociding demons as a concept, not Kazuya or his story. I am trying to say why I believe it's morally right to genocide 'most' demons. Kazuya saying they helped him has literally nothing to do with what im talking about. I don't even think the original commentor was talking about Kazuya, where did you even get this conclusion from?
Noah Neim
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Hmm, I never noticed the fact that they shouldn't be aware of each other, however, it's not all far fetched to say tehy met in the middle of genocide.
The lab girl herself ssaid she had been watching us since the beginning, and she is also capable of invading the literal AFTERLIFE with whatever tech gizmos he has, like she does in pacifist route.
So, something along the lines of this
> Watch Some human
> He's (rightfully) going all john wick mode
> "There's no way he'll beat the experimental wea-"
> Dead and buried
> Ohfuckohfuckohfuck
> Notice a strange patial anomaly within his safe house
> Further investigation
> It's the bloody after life
> Turns out, they don't really like this either, but they can't interfere either
> Become friends or ssomething as you watch a timeline burn
Now as for the 'karma' feature, i actually think that's a good addition, I don't hate the concept of a genocide route or even meta mechanics or being punished for my blood thirsst, but shrift never did this concept well at all, anyone in here has likely heard of dozenss of undertale parallels so I won't mention them.
However in general there are sstrange timeline diffeences between geno and pacificst. For example Yuuma state that the reasson they were travelling in the first place is to take Kazuya to some weird shrine to get rid of all the Samael presence within hiss body, as he states that kazuya has started
(anyone who gave the game above 3 stars probably does, I'm sorry, I can respect only so many opinions)
This is an equally silly response aswell, yes, YOU DO have to. The demons are going to keep coming back, and if you continously lose you literally have your soul corrupted over time, just because death isn't the option for you doesn't mean you aren't in any danger.
Titanoboa and Arachne aren't the only ones who are problematic, the only argument you can make is that demons aren't aware of the fact that death is permament for humans. Because they come back, this is reasonable to assume... only for the barghest and the quetz- quetzaco- the parasite thing who are stated to be lower intelligence. Every other demon girl should know the consequences of death, not knowing such is just plain ignorance.
We are different, humans and demons can never coexist, demons literally live on predating humans, they predate on SEVERAL planets across an INFINITE number of timelines, and they can just come back, we can't. The humans and kazuyas of those earthss only have one home to go to, demons are an invasive species, they need to be gotten rid of.
I'm not gonna claim my cause is moral, as one can argue killing an intelligent creature is always wrong, however I believe that demon killing is what's right for humanity's survival, because reminder, the demons also didn't have to kill people like you so claim that we don't aswell.
I can... kinda agree on this? Mukuro and Sphinx are both ssorta self centered in a way that they prevent you from going on your path and do just about the same thing as any other demon, but I guess they aren't outright evil as Mukuro can give up, and Sphinx jusst runs away if you win her night impossibly unfair game.
I wouldn't blame someone for fighting back against them either, especially since:
1. One being is a time stopping entity where 1 mistake could give you an instant loss
2. Another is a being far larger than the average demon (and stronger too) with the ability to take away your intelligence. Had sphinx been slightly maliciouss, we could literally be brain dead.
1. The girls specifically helped him from a threat which has no reason to exist, samael and the Old one are one of the worst aspects of this game which try to force a narrative that genocide is the worst route to go towards becausse it ends up with the old one taking over. We are completely ignorant about the old one for a majority of the game, and only until ex4 do we actually get some kind of understanding. The game intentionally keeps you ignorant, it forces down the narrative of Kazuya quite literally losing control over himself and just killing for the sake of it, something we the player aren't even in control of anymore.
2. It doesn't help 'the evil ones', it helps the demons. They are immortal parasites which invaded our world, that should give you enough reason but since it clearly didn't let me explain again.
They invaded first, they also DIDN'T HAVE TO (in capital letters so you dont miss it) to kill humans, no, orders or any other excusess aren't good arguments, they're biased and avoid assigning responsibility which people seem to assign to geno truthers.
They inherently benefit from killing humans, which they did, everywhere throughout the game proven by the letters we se.
The moment we fight back, suddenly we become the bad guy, the whole 'you're losing yourself' narrative is crammed into the story
Nekomata does everything wrong and makes an absolute mess that doesn't learn anything from the game it is very likely inspired by, further enhanced by his own lack of self awareness at how bad the story looks when you look at it from the lense of a normal person. He intentionally made the geno route nigh impossible to complete legitimately. This is not the actions of a developer who wants to show you both sides, this is the reaction of a developer who wants to force down a narrative down your throat like the girls force themselves on you.
To finish of the last point in reply to multiple people. Some people seem to be strangely not aware that the only reason why everything works out so well with Kazuya is because of the god given circumstances surronding him.
1. He is connected to player, giving him the help of someone who can straight up rewrite fate for him. Which mind you, saved him from death at the literal first shelter.
2. He has magic, which states to inherently make you stronger too, along with giving you a versatile tool for combat because of Reina, this is the only way he actually could survive for so long and have the option to be so strong he could spare demons
3. He had the My room, which gave him both resources and power to survive certain unlucky circumstances.
4. He had the assitancee of mira, the professor, and Hyakki, a privlege which few
Kazuya is an outlier when it comes to humans, he has the chance to get a demon harem, or get rid of demons, him communicating with them never actually does any net benefit for the world at large, only for himself, while making demons fear him (since they're immortal anyways) prevents them from coming back in the first place.
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Lots of people have responded so I'll just make some general clarifications:
- I'm arguing about whether it's justifiable for Kazuya specifically to carry out a merciless route. As an average human then sure, it's not realistic to expect them to carry out a pacifist route, since it would be simply too dangerous for them. For the very same reason, it would be impossible for them to do a merciless route as well (no way an average person could fight all demons to the death and live to tell the tale). So there's not much of a point in arguing whether merciless or pacifist is better from the perspective of the average human, as both routes could only be done by Kazuya and are untenable for them; at most, the average guy could aspire to a neutral route (and it would involve running away a lot)
- Some have made more arguments about how the demons are also evil or whatever, but I think this misses the point I was making. Sure, you can probably assign blame to the demons for what is happening, but does that actually change anything materially? You still have the option to kill all demons or to befriend all demons, and the latter leads to a better world.
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If collaboration between humans and demons is achievable and you know this, then why would you choose to exterminate demons? Because you want to kill stuff, and you want to see what happens if you kill everything. And there's nothing wrong with that! It's just a game, after all, not everything you do has to be the correct choice and oftentimes not taking the correct choice is more interesting. But you can't expect the game to also pat you in the back for it from a narrative perspective. In fact, the game getting mad at you is what makes merciless interesting, I'd be pretty disappointed if the "im going to fucking kill everything" route in a game that repeatedly tells you that you don't need to fucking kill everything did not make you evil in the slightest. Since morbid curiosity at seeing what happens is most people's reason for doing merciless (again, nobody does merciless in their first playthrough), the trope of losing control to an entity that just wants to kill everything is not really out of line.You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.
Noah Neim
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You're still avoiding the fact that the demons are the agressors and have caused tremendous damage to the earth and its people, without either proper punishment to the bonafide gods that rule I can't say that it's fair or expected of us to simply spare them in the first place.
That's not really the case, and it's like looking through a keyhole, it's not the big picture.
First, he still works as a demon hunter, or pacifier, so it's clearly not a "welp, we're done here" done deal. To what scale demons are still an issue is something we do not know, so it's pointless to argue over that fact, either way, demons cannot be stopped with peace negotiations.
Also, they'll just... go to a different earth? These are almost immortal timeline travelling beings who quite literally cannonically know what you do in other timelines because they've seen you personally, or heard about you through some of their friends who went to a different earth.
I'm not going to offer peace to beings who never gave us that options in the first place, while Kazuya has to spare them dozens of times where they were definitely out for blood before they even consider doing the same.
You're just assuming things about people. I came to play this game because I heard that it was meta, not because it had a genocide route where my killing of virtual beings had consequences. I played a game where the demons have never given me a reason to give them even an ounce of sympathy, i'm pragmatic in my nature, getting rid of the problem, especially a problem like an infinitely spawning race of demons who can cross timelines. Needs to be taken care of at its root, because Kazuya's solution didn't give peace, it simply created a half assesd cease fire, after his eventual death the demons will simply fall into their old habits.
If it weren't for samael and The old one, the consequences of the geno route wouldn't exist, and you'd have a race of self centered demonss who don't even want to step foot on your planet anymore because it's not fun when the prey ends up fighting back.
While threats like Titanoboa and Daji can't be taken care of individually like geno kazuya did, If daji couldn't survive the rail gun, which was likely one of many tools humanity has, they're not impossible threats to beat.
A free earth with no demons or an earth with demonic coexistence where they still somewhat (to an unknown extent) do the same thing they always did, prey on humans.
I don't even have a problem with being blamed or being called evil, Shrift just doesn't do it well in the slightest.
The_Protagonist_Ugh
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this is really fun, though tbh i just like genocide in general, the idea of killing everything brutally without mercy and growing stronger to the point of being unbeatable is just great, shrift just REALLY doesnt want you to enjoy it and even downright punishes you for it with an unbeatable boss at the end, that however doesnt mean i didnt enjoy killing everything, could do it again without a doubt ill smack sphinx across the face a million times and never get bored of it.
Noah Neim
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The_Protagonist_Ugh
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I'm not avoiding it, I believe it's irrelevant. You couldn't expect the average person to have the selflessness, patience and capacity for understanding needed to forgive the demons and become friends with them. Kazuya is not an average person. For Kazuya (and for the player), extermination or friendship (and everything in-between) is a choice, and extermination is no easier than friendship (in fact, it's arguably substantially harder). What is "proper punishment" worth if it were to achieve nothing materially? If we agree that what actually matters is material change, then whether the demons "deserve" punishment or not is irrelevant. It's all about "pragmatism", as you say.
Are you saying you did a merciless route as your first playthrough? Honestly, ballsy move, I respect it. Still, I'd say the majority of players try to do some form of pacifist (or at least neutral) route first, if only because the merciless route is obviously the hardest one (and also because we're all simping for the demon girls), so the "morbid curiosity" trope still holds up for most, imo.
Also I'll admit I did not care much for when the lore got into the timeline-travelling stuff, so I'll assume you're right about that.
Still, I don't think you're being fair to the pacifist route here.
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I think at this point we have to remember that we are playing a porn game. Connecting with the girls (if only by fucking them) is the whole point. This, more than any narrative reason, is probably why the game expects you to pursue the pacifist route and makes it the better one, since it's the one that allows you to connect the most with the demons. The game shows, repeatedly, that demons can be connected with on a personal level. Many do not really understand the significance of death for humans (though others do and just don't care), they are often charismatic, intelligent beings with insecurities, emotions, passions and aspirations of their own. The game emphasises that they are not that different from us and that they can be connected with, that's why they expect you to be sympathetic: when you peacefully dismantle their human-eating ways, they are pretty cool to be around with.
Even if this potential for emotional connection was not enough to make human-demon cooperation worth at least attempting, but this cooperation also happens to be extremely powerful. Imagine how much more advanced humanity could be if they could achieve collaboration with demons?
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So seeking peace between the two races is risky, yes, but it's also high-reward and you can always back out later if it doesn't work (the same cannot be said for genocide). And hey, it just so happens that this path also lets you fuck a bunch of other-worldly demon girls. What's there not to like?
bwardyunbip
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Venitus
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I don't know if anyone else has encountered the bug I did with EX2 and not having a struggle option,but if they have,has anyone found a solution? I also think I have a bug on EX3,when the two fairies do that surprise attack,I can attack them or cast magic and such,but I never get an option to struggle no matter how many turns pass.
Noah Neim
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It is wholly relevant, and I am equally viewing it from Kazuya's point of view. Pacafist Kazuya definitely enters into naive kindess. While I am a beliver that anyone can change, it doesn't take anyone intelligent to see how idealistic such a view point is. We don't have the time or resources to give everyone 3 or 4 chances, and that's what Kazuya gives to arachne in the game. Even in the marriage sequence SHE STILL KILLS HIM. The only thing keeping her paccified is the fact she's in my room and kazuya has "control" (very weak) over her.
Beings like arachne, of which there are going to be many (and I mean MANY) cannot be cured with kindess, they're too far gone to care about such things, you can only fix them with consequences first, negotiations second. Howver Kazuya's approach is far too kind, to him any kind of punishment to any of the rightfully deserving of punishment girls is cruel, and I obviously don't trust him with that kind of decision.
Do you recall how you can't even do a merciless route without doing a neutral one first? Yeah so I had to get neutral c first before doing that (which strangely also isn't a choice you need to do for mercy route)
As for the timeline stuff, I should be, The details of the game are already fading from my brain since I kinda want them too, if I need to recall things I can read up on my borderline not a review rant.
It's just not an outcome I can accept. As i mentioned previously, Kazuya's method isn't going to work, in the longer term there's going to be alot of casualities which are never going to be solved. I am still thinking from Kazuya's view since he's the only one who can make this choice. Both genocide and pacifist are 2 extremes which can both be criticized (excessive cruelty and excessive kindess) and I'm willing to take the former option (as Kazuya's player) to solve a problem rather than negotiate with it and hardly solve the problem which was the first agressor.
True pacifist hardly implies anything as you can only assume, as we hardly see him doing any notable work for the world to solve the demon problem, and yes, he should do so instead of living in his house full of biological experiments. He'ss the only one who can do so, since he made the choice to spare invaders, he now bares the responsibility of taking care of the problem with so called negotiations.
As for why I don't believe he is succeding. We see in events like Ex2 that one kind of demon can't convince the entirety of its kind to spare kazuya, the lampas straight up gave a rats ass kazuya was a child, he was simple prey in their eyes and they were just chasing their biological instinct to fuse into a light with someone.
There's going to be dozens of demons like this, because the demons didn't come to negotiate with humans like I said, they never tried to, they came to prey on them, while capable of being talked to, kazuya talking to a single barghest, lampass or siren isn't getting the rest of their kind on board.
I get what it's narrative is trying to say, thankfull though I care alot less since this is a femdom game which I only played because of the promises I was given (it was like undertale, it's super meta and so on). So the connection I can form is worth little to me since I am mostly activiely disgusted by most of the girl's actions, and a few which I find digusting looking in apperance.
I stated previously that if it weren't for threats like samael and The old one, genocide would work, the only thing that'd change was kazuya being reasonably weaker. However it's strange how coincidentally 2 god like entities are after Kazuya and can only take control if he.... kills people? hmmm, it's almost like the game had no actual moral argument since its activiely in a biased manner forgives Demon girls and calls you a hypocrite for wanting to save humanity but allegedly letting the old one destroy an entire timeline.
If we're being more reasonable, Samael can stay, but remove this whole killing thing makes it stronger thing and reina will actually be usseful and take care of the problem she created,.
As for the fact he defeated said god with the power of..... 12? as i recall demons, I mean it's incredibly strange, it's obviouss power of friendship vibes but I can't accept that the "love" of a few demons gives Kazuya enough power to beat Samael, it's not logical, the writing made it be so anyways.
Also, Kazuya is the only one who has My Room, and the only one who can have it. Mira only gives him such a thing as assisstance on his journey (as they are aware of The old one and abbadon, but cannot directly interfere themselve, so Kazuya making relationships, and going the pacifist route is ideal for the, so they gave him a way to be rewarded for such actions.)
So no real advancement can come of it besides maybe demon girls becoming scientists and learning how to harness magic in a few industries.
If I had to take some miniscule advancement we can't replicate over the threat of demons disappearing, I'd still take the latter.
Yeah sorry mate, I can't like it, which ultimately gives me the ability to make an ultimately 'evil' decision. I mentioned previously that taking any intelligent life could be argued as an ultimate moral evil no matter what, which I don't find a problem with, if the game was better written and if the dev wasn't wholly biased I would be more willing to consider other outcomes.So seeking peace between the two races is risky, yes, but it's also high-reward and you can always back out later if it doesn't work (the same cannot be said for genocide). And hey, it just so happens that this path also lets you fuck a bunch of other-worldly demon girls. What's there not to like?
Noah Neim
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Yeah arguments and debates are fun, sadly the developer couldn't just make a game without being biased, whether pacifist or geno supporter all sides can agree that it's a very bad look that ruins the narrative of the game, not to mention ex4 being his lovechild of spite.
EvokedShadow
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I really did not want to put a hand into this long ass debate you people have been having, but it keeps giving me notifications about it and I'm getting really tired of that, so I'm going to put my two cents in while I'm here. Or sixty cents, depending on how you look at it.
There's a lot of debate about the genocide route, and a lot of confusing regarding specific details within the route.
Firstly and foremost, I think the worst connotation that people are bringing into this game while playing it is that it is a hentai 'undertale', while yes, there are obvious inspirations such as the major three routes, the meta narrative meanings of saving and loading, and some other details. It is a mindset that when applied to SHRIFT is basically a forced comparison between the two. Coming into this game expecting undertale's level of narrative perfection and writing is a massive folly, as you're expecting a lot out of what is, at the end of the day, a porn game.
SHRIFT is nowhere near perfect as a story, but it is complicated, and ignoring smaller details will make the whole experience harder to understand as a whole.
One other point of confusion I noticed was regarding the Old One and the modified prologue within the Genocide route of the game. People are confused due to Kazuya's incident and the pre-SHRIFT events being notably different compared to Neutral and True Mercy, this is an intentional mystery, it was there to be clarified by EX4. Where it is explained that the Twins had used their own abilities of Intervention to create a timeline where the ritual had succeeded, and the seed of the Old One had been planted within Kazuya. At some point within the run(implied by the trial version to be the Second Iron Maiden fight), there is a shift in which the timeline that our Genocide Kazuya is in has shifted.
This retroactively means that by nature, Kazuya is not the same in both routes. It is a different character in a sense, the game is not directly blaming us as the players yet, but instead, is trying to showcase by the outright darker acts the Merciless Kazuya commits that the two Kazuyas between Neutral/Mercy and Genocide are NOT the same person. The demons throughout genocide are NOT blaming the player, they're explicably blaming the Old One, referring to it as the thing that Kazuya is being overshadowed by.
We'll get to player blame later.
For those that want to argue that setting up anything for EX1-4 to explain, I'd like to remind you that the EX Scenarios are NOT some kind of bonus DLC, but an intentionally important additional part of the narrative, they come with the game, they are meant to be a part of the game. Not an extra. This can be seen in multiple aspects, such as EX2 finally making good on Hecate's threat from the very end of Chapter 1.
These EX Scenarios are explained to be the Old One's latest attempts, trying to modify aspects of other timelines in the hope that it would make True Mercy fail, make the official timeline fail. For example, EX1 sets up the Harpy Queen in the direct hope that Mother Rabbit would effectively 'lose it', giving up on her system of beliefs and becoming a demon so cruel that Kazuya would not be able to find a way to befriend her. EX2 has the Old One directly involved through Hecate in the hopes of corrupting the TM Timeline's Hecate and getting access to the Official Timeline.
Next, let's talk about the Hyakki fight.
A lot of people want to complain about the impossible difficulty of the fight, which while I agree is true, I think its rather stupid to complain about that specifically? It really has nothing to do with the narrative we're debating, okay, Hyakki is impossible, what does this have to do with the narrative of the Genocide Route?
Anyways, once you've cheated and beaten that fight, you get the actual first instance of player blame, or player thanks, if you will, as the Old One both chastises you and praises you for choosing this route. Stating that it and you have been disconnected from Kazuya due to Hyakki's efforts.
It's not a big deal, not much to be said. However the Old One and the Intervener of course, are no longer able to access the game. Though you can bypass this by reopening the game approx- 7 times after it's broken, and the intervention device will restore itself.
One thing I do think is worth discussing about the Hyakki fight is not that it was impossible, but that it was made impossible, it was a change made later on. People like to use this as saying Alan hates people who chose genocide and is shitting on them, but thats happenstance and assumptions made purely to fulfill other peoples' narratives of the developer. I think a large part of this perspective comes from the fact that we had a large wave of new SHRIFT players due to MGQ Paradox's Collab, of which SHRIFT's Kazuya was a participant. Those players came in around the time EX4 was in development.
Alan made this change to the Hyakki fight around the time between EX3 and EX4, it was a shadow update that was not just a retroactive shitfest as some people like to think. We don't have a clear answer, but when EX4 came out, it was explained that Hyakki had changed her stance on matters and chosen to prevent the Genocide timeline from reaching a proper end and allowing the Old One dominance over it.
All routes are necessary for the narrative of SHRIFT to make sense, without Neutral Routes, the Intervener would lack the neccesarily knowledge to understand True Mercy and the risks of Samael. Without Genocide, the Intervener would never understand why the Old One needed the ritual or Kazuya as a host. The Hyakki fight change seems to be a live change Alan made in the hopes that people would notice it, as dialogue was ALSO changed around that time to show that Hyakki had been increasingly motivated for one reason or another.
Without this change, the Genocide 'deadlock', if you will, that allows the EX Scenarios to happen, wouldn't happen. It also explains why the EX Scenarios aren't available for the Genocide Player, simply put, theres no rhyme or reason for the Old One to mess with other demons when he's already gained control of this timeline, and of this Kazuya. It's a pointless endeavor. If you think that's half assed and an excuse, then at that point you have to ask if you actually care about the story, or are simply coping for the sake of coping.
Player blame exists in EX4, the game makes note of how other inteveners' actions allowed for the Old One to perform what it has, and blames them for abandoning Kazuya. Except it is not the game that makes this claim, it is Cheshire. The intervention device herself. Created by Richard from SHRIFT 2, or at the very least, placed within the game by Richard's hands. We can't make too many assumptions about Richard yet, as there are still two chapters of SHRIFT 2 left to come out that could give us greater insight into his beliefs. Though we know for a fact that he comes from a timeline where demons themselves are a lot less aggressive and cruel, or well, most of them are, for that matter, Richard himself may see the Intervener's actions from this point of view.
The mistake we're making here is assuming this player blame applies to us.
After Genocide, one of three paths is available to you as a player.
You can choose to be pardoned, and continue on with a new run.
You can choose to move forward, be disconnected, and leave the game be, assuming you're done with it.
You can choose to move forward, be disconnected, and reboot the game enough to force your way back in.
The second option is in a sense, abandonment, you've either found yourself satisfied with your experience, or have deemed it a boring or shitty one and left it to rot. In that way, the interveners, or players, who have done that, fit Cheshire and Richard's depiction of them. Albeit not for the same reasons they believe, but considering the weight our actions have on the world of SHRIFT, its not unfair for them to hate the ones who leave it in a sorry state.
The first and third however, are the people who have gotten to EX4 after a Genocide Run, by extension they are not one of the interveners who abandoned Kazuya, but rather came back to finish what they started and in a sense, repaired it.
This game never intended for the players to experience just True Mercy, a complete experience of SHRIFT would involve seeing all of it's endings. Neutral endings give context to True Mercy, True Mercy ties a bow on the original narrative, and Genocide brings up more questions for answers to be given through the EX Scenarios. One cannot look at any as the ending of SHRIFT, because by considering any of them the final end to the story, you're not only disregarding the whole package, but going out of your way to limit your experience with the game.
EX4 is not a 'lovechild of spite', it's purpose has been misunderstood as well as Genocide's and that is likely due to Alan's own writing, he's not perfect, he's made mistakes, and the ambiguity and vagueness he's left in some narrative decisions are what has led to somebody debates about the failures of his work's story. I do blame him in part for the fact that these debates happen, as had he been clearer, I'm sure a lot of people would have a lot less to complain about.
Now that I've said all that, the last thing left to actually discuss would of course be, why go True Mercy? In what world can Genocide not be the right path?
I could've discussed this first, but in the worry that people would start ignoring my words and say I'm 'yapping' once I start advocating for True Mercy, I decided to explain everything else before this.
Demons are murderers.
Let's get that out of the way, you are entirely right, any of you who believe that demons as a race including all their many species are killing people is entirely correct. Well done on figuring that out.
So why then, am I saying that sparing them is justified? Well, I'm not, not exactly. SHRIFT does not ever once try to say that the demons are good girls that should be spared, far from it, its a horrid leap in logic to assume that because SHRIFT allows you to befriend a few choice individuals amongst their species that it is saying they're all nice and good people.
I have placed a review on this thread that goes over every single demon in Neutral/Mercy and explaining why they can be spared, or have reasoning you can figure out for them to be spare able, from Kazuya's perspective. While I think my thoughts there are a little dated, they still mostly hold true.
Species demons, such as Barghest, Lampas, Echo, Camazotz, are not cases in which the species is suddenly justifiable. It is simply that individuals amongst that species have risen above the standard of their nature. They were given many chances yes, courtesy of Kazuya, but it doesn't change the fact that they demonstrated the capacity for that change. Lampas gave up on her light, she rejected the entire purpose of her species, even outright calling it out as a twisted game Hecate has designed and cursing out her former ruler for it. Barghest while simple-minded, was willing to trust Kazuya after he demonstrated kindness, once she had been shown that act, she not once after showed him hostility, appearing in My Room without another appearance of that specific barghest after that. Echo was at a loss after seeing the true love the Original had experienced, and was at even more of a loss after seeing Kazuya reject the possibility of quelling her as a threat with the powder, allowing Kazuya to complete dissaude her with words alone in the battle that follows and making her completely give up on the idea of forcibly claiming him. Camazotz, confused by the actions of a kind human that didn't resist any of her advances in My Room, and terrified of the idea that Kazuya might hate her for the actions of her brethren, desperately sought comfort within the recesses of his mind, and was welcomed in a symbiotic relationship that allowed her to rest at ease for the first time since coming to the human world.
Yet, in EX2, multiple barghest and Lampas show that they don't care about Kazuya's ideals, and Kazuya, while not trying to kill them, also doesn't assume he can make them turn over a new leaf. In the Echo Dream Battle, the echoes there explain that just because there are kind echoes that seek love in their species, there are certainly ones like them that seek souls and souls alone. And of course, the Camazotz Kazuya bonds with is the singular exception amongst its own species.
Kazuya doesn't go out of his way to think, oh "they're good demons that don't want to hurt people", no, Kazuya is trying to survive, and as he's told by the familiar and Lampas after their first encounter, its possible that his escape might be made easier by sparing the demons he fights rather than killing them.
Kazuya has been in stasis for five years, and the only people he has to interact with directly are demons that sought out his soul, his kindness to them can be seen as the result of a psychological desire for friendship and intimacy, not even of a sexual kind. The poor guy could use friends, so when he sees the opportunity to shift minds or to speak them to on some deeper level, he tries to, he's not going out of his way to say demons are good people in the slightest. His Devil's Office is not going against the war effort, its trying to do specific missions for the sake of seeking out MOW, and applying his pacifistic views where possible, but also knowing when to apply lethal force(Kazuya kills the Harpy Queen in EX1, knowing there was no chance for reconsideration).
Arachne
All of the opportunities that the My Room gang had and eventually used for change where only possible because of Kazuya's kindness, and many people argue that this is naive kindness. That is entirely correct, Kazuya is kind to the point of naivete. This is a man that's entire life and world has been turned upside down after being asleep for five years, his girlfriend is likely out to kill him, and these demons are the only kind of conversation he can really have, he's not just a horny bastard, he's a lonely man who's been lonely for a long time already. Whether it was not having parents at a young age, or his best friend being the only voice of a reason in a terrifying place, Kazuya is desperate. His naivete is his folly, because the game has never once tried to dictate that Kazuya was in the right for this disposition. The angelic magic within him yes, would have caused problems for the world due to him murdering demons, but in every single Neutral Ending Variant, Samael is not released, and either Kazuya lives on or the threat he poses is removed depending on which Neutral End you see.
Yes, the bonds he formed allowed him to reach his happiest ending, but that does NOT mean that forming these bonds was the correct thing to do.
Arachne exists as the counter to Kazuya's beliefs, and their battle perfectly reflects that. Arachne acts as the natural order symbolically, and the horrors Kazuya experiences within her cave are meant to be the final nail in the coffin, the reality check telling him to wake the fuck up and accept that all demons are murderous, and that just because he's bonded with a few doesn't mean they're on some uphill battle to coexistence. Demons eat humans, humans kill demons to survive. That's the natural order that SHRIFT has been trying to impose on Kazuya on his entire journey until now, and Kazuya has refused to accept it every single step of the way.
When Kazuya defeats Arachne, and chooses not to fire, his words tell all his thoughts. He knows that if he kills Arachne, he'd be proving her right, but in saying that, he knows he has, he knows humans and demons will never find some true coexistence, and he knows that the food chain Arachne has dictated is what the world has come to. That these two races will likely be fighting to the death forever, which is why he doesn't say that Arachne can change, nor does he try to say that he thinks demons are good people. His own words are that He doesn't want to kill any demons, he's understood that he's in the wrong, he knows by now that he's incorrect in believing that there could ever be a route for some 'true peace'. Despite that, Kazuya doesn't want to accept that, deep down he knows Arachne is right, but he wants to refuse it with his whole being, because once he gives in to what Arachne has declared, it will be unavoidable truth, and so he retains his naivete, tries to keep believing in his own ideals. Knowing full well those ideals are wrong.
Kazuya gives them three or four chances, he spares them despite their murderous intent, he's too good a guy in a cruel world. He knows this, and SHRIFT finally makes us see where Arachne's words have taken him through the EX Scenarios and the Epilogue.
The Final State of Kazuya
I think that the most beautiful thing about Arachne's narrative purpose is the actual effect its had on Kazuya by the end of the game. With accessing the EX Scenarios requiring everybody in My Room, Alan was able to go all out in demonstrating how Kazuya's opinion on matters had changed due to Arachne. There is still a kindness in him, in the epilogue he explains that he operates as a Demon Hunter, both helping humans and demons and trying to make ends meet for the two races where he can, he's a private investigator that tries to make peace where he can. In EX2 he expresses the desire to help Mormo out knowing full well the risks, and even afterwards is willing to forgive Mormo after seeing what Hecate had put her up to.
Yet in EX1, we also see that Kazuya isn't just a pacifist either, he understands the risks, and I'd like to believe that is all due to Arachne. The Harpy Queen fight demonstrates a ruthlessness Kazuya has never showcased through the entire True Mercy run, knowing full well that her mere existence was a risk to everybody existing in that EX Timeline, he did not hesitate and did not even give the Intervener a choice to make, taking them out with another shot within moments of their last words' being spoken.
Our Final Kazuya understands not every conflict can be resolved peacefully, and he is more than prepared to use violence if it really is the last method. In a way, the events of SHRIFT have broken him, in a way he'll never fully recover, but despite that, he's maintaing as many shreds of his original lonely beliefs as he can, even if he's the only one who will.
SHRIFT is not a perfect game, and I think honestly Alan should've taken a little less from Undertale's book, a lot of the misunderstandings in his attempted story and a lot of the genuien flaws with it coming from misdesigning the trio of routes as he did. Still, I think its unfair that so much outright hate is given to this single developer who gave so much to his project in the hopes that people would enjoy it.
At the end of the day, whether you agree or disagree with me. There are tons of H-Games with far less disputed perfect narratives, the original MGQ and Black Souls are popular for similar reasons. There are a lot of us who love SHRIFT for what it is, and I would hope that nobody in this debate, in other future debates, or just in this thread, or anywhere else for that matter, shits on one another for their taste and their opinions on this narrative.
I personally will never forget the chills Last Confession gave me in this game's True Mercy ending, and I feel bad if some people can't say they had the same feeling. I've given my thoughts on the matter, if you disagree, feel free to tell me, just don't be antagonistic about it. And please, enough with the hate for the creator, its just a shitty practice, Alan is clearly aware of his mistakes, and SHRIFT 2 is taking different decisions and directions in all manners of way, that last thing he needs is more people telling him what he fucked up. It'll just bring down the motivation of the poor guy. Everybody's gotten their jabs in already, we need to let sleeping dogs lie eventually.
No but seriously, this debate has been going on for a while, I'm constantly checking if people need help with their copies of the game so this is not helping matters :sob:.
Alright, bye now.
There's a lot of debate about the genocide route, and a lot of confusing regarding specific details within the route.
Firstly and foremost, I think the worst connotation that people are bringing into this game while playing it is that it is a hentai 'undertale', while yes, there are obvious inspirations such as the major three routes, the meta narrative meanings of saving and loading, and some other details. It is a mindset that when applied to SHRIFT is basically a forced comparison between the two. Coming into this game expecting undertale's level of narrative perfection and writing is a massive folly, as you're expecting a lot out of what is, at the end of the day, a porn game.
SHRIFT is nowhere near perfect as a story, but it is complicated, and ignoring smaller details will make the whole experience harder to understand as a whole.
One other point of confusion I noticed was regarding the Old One and the modified prologue within the Genocide route of the game. People are confused due to Kazuya's incident and the pre-SHRIFT events being notably different compared to Neutral and True Mercy, this is an intentional mystery, it was there to be clarified by EX4. Where it is explained that the Twins had used their own abilities of Intervention to create a timeline where the ritual had succeeded, and the seed of the Old One had been planted within Kazuya. At some point within the run(implied by the trial version to be the Second Iron Maiden fight), there is a shift in which the timeline that our Genocide Kazuya is in has shifted.
This retroactively means that by nature, Kazuya is not the same in both routes. It is a different character in a sense, the game is not directly blaming us as the players yet, but instead, is trying to showcase by the outright darker acts the Merciless Kazuya commits that the two Kazuyas between Neutral/Mercy and Genocide are NOT the same person. The demons throughout genocide are NOT blaming the player, they're explicably blaming the Old One, referring to it as the thing that Kazuya is being overshadowed by.
We'll get to player blame later.
For those that want to argue that setting up anything for EX1-4 to explain, I'd like to remind you that the EX Scenarios are NOT some kind of bonus DLC, but an intentionally important additional part of the narrative, they come with the game, they are meant to be a part of the game. Not an extra. This can be seen in multiple aspects, such as EX2 finally making good on Hecate's threat from the very end of Chapter 1.
These EX Scenarios are explained to be the Old One's latest attempts, trying to modify aspects of other timelines in the hope that it would make True Mercy fail, make the official timeline fail. For example, EX1 sets up the Harpy Queen in the direct hope that Mother Rabbit would effectively 'lose it', giving up on her system of beliefs and becoming a demon so cruel that Kazuya would not be able to find a way to befriend her. EX2 has the Old One directly involved through Hecate in the hopes of corrupting the TM Timeline's Hecate and getting access to the Official Timeline.
Next, let's talk about the Hyakki fight.
A lot of people want to complain about the impossible difficulty of the fight, which while I agree is true, I think its rather stupid to complain about that specifically? It really has nothing to do with the narrative we're debating, okay, Hyakki is impossible, what does this have to do with the narrative of the Genocide Route?
Anyways, once you've cheated and beaten that fight, you get the actual first instance of player blame, or player thanks, if you will, as the Old One both chastises you and praises you for choosing this route. Stating that it and you have been disconnected from Kazuya due to Hyakki's efforts.
It's not a big deal, not much to be said. However the Old One and the Intervener of course, are no longer able to access the game. Though you can bypass this by reopening the game approx- 7 times after it's broken, and the intervention device will restore itself.
One thing I do think is worth discussing about the Hyakki fight is not that it was impossible, but that it was made impossible, it was a change made later on. People like to use this as saying Alan hates people who chose genocide and is shitting on them, but thats happenstance and assumptions made purely to fulfill other peoples' narratives of the developer. I think a large part of this perspective comes from the fact that we had a large wave of new SHRIFT players due to MGQ Paradox's Collab, of which SHRIFT's Kazuya was a participant. Those players came in around the time EX4 was in development.
Alan made this change to the Hyakki fight around the time between EX3 and EX4, it was a shadow update that was not just a retroactive shitfest as some people like to think. We don't have a clear answer, but when EX4 came out, it was explained that Hyakki had changed her stance on matters and chosen to prevent the Genocide timeline from reaching a proper end and allowing the Old One dominance over it.
All routes are necessary for the narrative of SHRIFT to make sense, without Neutral Routes, the Intervener would lack the neccesarily knowledge to understand True Mercy and the risks of Samael. Without Genocide, the Intervener would never understand why the Old One needed the ritual or Kazuya as a host. The Hyakki fight change seems to be a live change Alan made in the hopes that people would notice it, as dialogue was ALSO changed around that time to show that Hyakki had been increasingly motivated for one reason or another.
Without this change, the Genocide 'deadlock', if you will, that allows the EX Scenarios to happen, wouldn't happen. It also explains why the EX Scenarios aren't available for the Genocide Player, simply put, theres no rhyme or reason for the Old One to mess with other demons when he's already gained control of this timeline, and of this Kazuya. It's a pointless endeavor. If you think that's half assed and an excuse, then at that point you have to ask if you actually care about the story, or are simply coping for the sake of coping.
Player blame exists in EX4, the game makes note of how other inteveners' actions allowed for the Old One to perform what it has, and blames them for abandoning Kazuya. Except it is not the game that makes this claim, it is Cheshire. The intervention device herself. Created by Richard from SHRIFT 2, or at the very least, placed within the game by Richard's hands. We can't make too many assumptions about Richard yet, as there are still two chapters of SHRIFT 2 left to come out that could give us greater insight into his beliefs. Though we know for a fact that he comes from a timeline where demons themselves are a lot less aggressive and cruel, or well, most of them are, for that matter, Richard himself may see the Intervener's actions from this point of view.
The mistake we're making here is assuming this player blame applies to us.
After Genocide, one of three paths is available to you as a player.
You can choose to be pardoned, and continue on with a new run.
You can choose to move forward, be disconnected, and leave the game be, assuming you're done with it.
You can choose to move forward, be disconnected, and reboot the game enough to force your way back in.
The second option is in a sense, abandonment, you've either found yourself satisfied with your experience, or have deemed it a boring or shitty one and left it to rot. In that way, the interveners, or players, who have done that, fit Cheshire and Richard's depiction of them. Albeit not for the same reasons they believe, but considering the weight our actions have on the world of SHRIFT, its not unfair for them to hate the ones who leave it in a sorry state.
The first and third however, are the people who have gotten to EX4 after a Genocide Run, by extension they are not one of the interveners who abandoned Kazuya, but rather came back to finish what they started and in a sense, repaired it.
This game never intended for the players to experience just True Mercy, a complete experience of SHRIFT would involve seeing all of it's endings. Neutral endings give context to True Mercy, True Mercy ties a bow on the original narrative, and Genocide brings up more questions for answers to be given through the EX Scenarios. One cannot look at any as the ending of SHRIFT, because by considering any of them the final end to the story, you're not only disregarding the whole package, but going out of your way to limit your experience with the game.
EX4 is not a 'lovechild of spite', it's purpose has been misunderstood as well as Genocide's and that is likely due to Alan's own writing, he's not perfect, he's made mistakes, and the ambiguity and vagueness he's left in some narrative decisions are what has led to somebody debates about the failures of his work's story. I do blame him in part for the fact that these debates happen, as had he been clearer, I'm sure a lot of people would have a lot less to complain about.
Now that I've said all that, the last thing left to actually discuss would of course be, why go True Mercy? In what world can Genocide not be the right path?
I could've discussed this first, but in the worry that people would start ignoring my words and say I'm 'yapping' once I start advocating for True Mercy, I decided to explain everything else before this.
Demons are murderers.
Let's get that out of the way, you are entirely right, any of you who believe that demons as a race including all their many species are killing people is entirely correct. Well done on figuring that out.
So why then, am I saying that sparing them is justified? Well, I'm not, not exactly. SHRIFT does not ever once try to say that the demons are good girls that should be spared, far from it, its a horrid leap in logic to assume that because SHRIFT allows you to befriend a few choice individuals amongst their species that it is saying they're all nice and good people.
I have placed a review on this thread that goes over every single demon in Neutral/Mercy and explaining why they can be spared, or have reasoning you can figure out for them to be spare able, from Kazuya's perspective. While I think my thoughts there are a little dated, they still mostly hold true.
Species demons, such as Barghest, Lampas, Echo, Camazotz, are not cases in which the species is suddenly justifiable. It is simply that individuals amongst that species have risen above the standard of their nature. They were given many chances yes, courtesy of Kazuya, but it doesn't change the fact that they demonstrated the capacity for that change. Lampas gave up on her light, she rejected the entire purpose of her species, even outright calling it out as a twisted game Hecate has designed and cursing out her former ruler for it. Barghest while simple-minded, was willing to trust Kazuya after he demonstrated kindness, once she had been shown that act, she not once after showed him hostility, appearing in My Room without another appearance of that specific barghest after that. Echo was at a loss after seeing the true love the Original had experienced, and was at even more of a loss after seeing Kazuya reject the possibility of quelling her as a threat with the powder, allowing Kazuya to complete dissaude her with words alone in the battle that follows and making her completely give up on the idea of forcibly claiming him. Camazotz, confused by the actions of a kind human that didn't resist any of her advances in My Room, and terrified of the idea that Kazuya might hate her for the actions of her brethren, desperately sought comfort within the recesses of his mind, and was welcomed in a symbiotic relationship that allowed her to rest at ease for the first time since coming to the human world.
Yet, in EX2, multiple barghest and Lampas show that they don't care about Kazuya's ideals, and Kazuya, while not trying to kill them, also doesn't assume he can make them turn over a new leaf. In the Echo Dream Battle, the echoes there explain that just because there are kind echoes that seek love in their species, there are certainly ones like them that seek souls and souls alone. And of course, the Camazotz Kazuya bonds with is the singular exception amongst its own species.
Kazuya doesn't go out of his way to think, oh "they're good demons that don't want to hurt people", no, Kazuya is trying to survive, and as he's told by the familiar and Lampas after their first encounter, its possible that his escape might be made easier by sparing the demons he fights rather than killing them.
Kazuya has been in stasis for five years, and the only people he has to interact with directly are demons that sought out his soul, his kindness to them can be seen as the result of a psychological desire for friendship and intimacy, not even of a sexual kind. The poor guy could use friends, so when he sees the opportunity to shift minds or to speak them to on some deeper level, he tries to, he's not going out of his way to say demons are good people in the slightest. His Devil's Office is not going against the war effort, its trying to do specific missions for the sake of seeking out MOW, and applying his pacifistic views where possible, but also knowing when to apply lethal force(Kazuya kills the Harpy Queen in EX1, knowing there was no chance for reconsideration).
Arachne
All of the opportunities that the My Room gang had and eventually used for change where only possible because of Kazuya's kindness, and many people argue that this is naive kindness. That is entirely correct, Kazuya is kind to the point of naivete. This is a man that's entire life and world has been turned upside down after being asleep for five years, his girlfriend is likely out to kill him, and these demons are the only kind of conversation he can really have, he's not just a horny bastard, he's a lonely man who's been lonely for a long time already. Whether it was not having parents at a young age, or his best friend being the only voice of a reason in a terrifying place, Kazuya is desperate. His naivete is his folly, because the game has never once tried to dictate that Kazuya was in the right for this disposition. The angelic magic within him yes, would have caused problems for the world due to him murdering demons, but in every single Neutral Ending Variant, Samael is not released, and either Kazuya lives on or the threat he poses is removed depending on which Neutral End you see.
Yes, the bonds he formed allowed him to reach his happiest ending, but that does NOT mean that forming these bonds was the correct thing to do.
Arachne exists as the counter to Kazuya's beliefs, and their battle perfectly reflects that. Arachne acts as the natural order symbolically, and the horrors Kazuya experiences within her cave are meant to be the final nail in the coffin, the reality check telling him to wake the fuck up and accept that all demons are murderous, and that just because he's bonded with a few doesn't mean they're on some uphill battle to coexistence. Demons eat humans, humans kill demons to survive. That's the natural order that SHRIFT has been trying to impose on Kazuya on his entire journey until now, and Kazuya has refused to accept it every single step of the way.
When Kazuya defeats Arachne, and chooses not to fire, his words tell all his thoughts. He knows that if he kills Arachne, he'd be proving her right, but in saying that, he knows he has, he knows humans and demons will never find some true coexistence, and he knows that the food chain Arachne has dictated is what the world has come to. That these two races will likely be fighting to the death forever, which is why he doesn't say that Arachne can change, nor does he try to say that he thinks demons are good people. His own words are that He doesn't want to kill any demons, he's understood that he's in the wrong, he knows by now that he's incorrect in believing that there could ever be a route for some 'true peace'. Despite that, Kazuya doesn't want to accept that, deep down he knows Arachne is right, but he wants to refuse it with his whole being, because once he gives in to what Arachne has declared, it will be unavoidable truth, and so he retains his naivete, tries to keep believing in his own ideals. Knowing full well those ideals are wrong.
Kazuya gives them three or four chances, he spares them despite their murderous intent, he's too good a guy in a cruel world. He knows this, and SHRIFT finally makes us see where Arachne's words have taken him through the EX Scenarios and the Epilogue.
The Final State of Kazuya
I think that the most beautiful thing about Arachne's narrative purpose is the actual effect its had on Kazuya by the end of the game. With accessing the EX Scenarios requiring everybody in My Room, Alan was able to go all out in demonstrating how Kazuya's opinion on matters had changed due to Arachne. There is still a kindness in him, in the epilogue he explains that he operates as a Demon Hunter, both helping humans and demons and trying to make ends meet for the two races where he can, he's a private investigator that tries to make peace where he can. In EX2 he expresses the desire to help Mormo out knowing full well the risks, and even afterwards is willing to forgive Mormo after seeing what Hecate had put her up to.
Yet in EX1, we also see that Kazuya isn't just a pacifist either, he understands the risks, and I'd like to believe that is all due to Arachne. The Harpy Queen fight demonstrates a ruthlessness Kazuya has never showcased through the entire True Mercy run, knowing full well that her mere existence was a risk to everybody existing in that EX Timeline, he did not hesitate and did not even give the Intervener a choice to make, taking them out with another shot within moments of their last words' being spoken.
Our Final Kazuya understands not every conflict can be resolved peacefully, and he is more than prepared to use violence if it really is the last method. In a way, the events of SHRIFT have broken him, in a way he'll never fully recover, but despite that, he's maintaing as many shreds of his original lonely beliefs as he can, even if he's the only one who will.
SHRIFT is not a perfect game, and I think honestly Alan should've taken a little less from Undertale's book, a lot of the misunderstandings in his attempted story and a lot of the genuien flaws with it coming from misdesigning the trio of routes as he did. Still, I think its unfair that so much outright hate is given to this single developer who gave so much to his project in the hopes that people would enjoy it.
At the end of the day, whether you agree or disagree with me. There are tons of H-Games with far less disputed perfect narratives, the original MGQ and Black Souls are popular for similar reasons. There are a lot of us who love SHRIFT for what it is, and I would hope that nobody in this debate, in other future debates, or just in this thread, or anywhere else for that matter, shits on one another for their taste and their opinions on this narrative.
I personally will never forget the chills Last Confession gave me in this game's True Mercy ending, and I feel bad if some people can't say they had the same feeling. I've given my thoughts on the matter, if you disagree, feel free to tell me, just don't be antagonistic about it. And please, enough with the hate for the creator, its just a shitty practice, Alan is clearly aware of his mistakes, and SHRIFT 2 is taking different decisions and directions in all manners of way, that last thing he needs is more people telling him what he fucked up. It'll just bring down the motivation of the poor guy. Everybody's gotten their jabs in already, we need to let sleeping dogs lie eventually.
No but seriously, this debate has been going on for a while, I'm constantly checking if people need help with their copies of the game so this is not helping matters :sob:.
Alright, bye now
.