Which scene are you talking about, exactly? In all EX chapters, once you complete the chapter you get all its loss scenes, even if you didn't actually play through them (with the exception of Cheshire's blowjob scene in EX3)
- Thread starter darkenergy100
- Start date
- Jun 28, 2021
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Aaaa,i thought EX4 was different from what ppl were talkin bout.What bout a bed scene in EX4 i saw some ppl talkin bout?Bout a vamp or somethin
Nah, this is a silly criticism tbh. Is it morally justifiable to exterminate demons? Sometimes perhaps, other times not so much. I can certainly see a case for killing outright evil ones like arachne, but those like Barghest can barely be held accountable for their actions, and killing Mother Rabbit is outright horrendous, you are going straight to hell just for that alone.
Whatever the case, though, that's not the point. You could kill demons, but the point is that you don't have to. What the game hammers home throughout the whole pacifist route is that humans and demons are not that different: you can persuade them to be better or dissuade them from harming humans without outright killing them, and the world you create in the process of creating this mutual understanding is patently better.
Once you know this (and you do know this, nobody does a merciless run on their first playthrough), why would you choose the kill the demons anyway? You may find it right morally, but in practice it's not going to undo any of the damage they've done and it's just going to result in a shittier world. I think there is a point to be made about how very often the desire to carry out "morally justifiable" violence even when we know nothing good will materially come of it comes from a selfish desire to feel superior to others, or just as a way for those who simply enjoy violence itself to engage in it in a way that they can rationalise (a rationalisation that can be dropped later for any reason).
Then again, you are playing a porn game, so you might not want to think that deeply about it. The game tells you that you have magic stuff inside you and that magic turns evil when you kill anyone if you don't need to. Bit of a cliché trope, but it gets the job done. Just crank your hog and nod along with the rest.
Oh right, that one. Yeah you have to actually find that and lose to get the loss scene, it's an exception to the rest of the EX loss scenes because it's supposed to be some sort of easter egg I think. Iirc you can get that scene by going into a particular hallway during the escape sequence with the snake girl. Don't remember where exactly but just make sure to explore every path before continuing when you play through that.
- Dec 9, 2021
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Its not about undoing the damage they caused, every less demon is one less demon that can kill another person. Demons created the shitty world, not me. Me attempting to fix the world that demons ruined by exterminating them can't be seen as bad in anyway. I don't see how you made killing mass murdering demons somehow into a desire to feel superior. Isn't that their entire thing? They see humans as lesser and them as superior? There's not a 'case' to kill some demons, every single demon has a case on why you should kill them. There are little to no 'good' ones. Just because you can understand them and gain some type of connection does not change they are mass murderers who only goal is to wipe out humanity, mostly for fun. You physically can't persuade most demons, they will attempt to kill you anyways. They have to like you for them to care. Can you imagine a serial killer kills you, and in the afterlife god says "damn bro shoulda just tried to convince them not to kill you".
TLDR: I am not carrying out "morally justifiable justice", I am a person part of a species another species is happy to genocide and am attempting to save my species by fighting back. Its really that simple. Without super powered porn man, demons and humans will never be able to live together. Its also not my job as the genocided species to try to live with the genocidal species.
On the topic of the current (or vaguely current anyways) conversation, there was a guy who went through and made a list of which demons he'd spare and which he'd kill, and why. Nevart his name was. His post about the chapter 2 girls got nuked for some reason (or at least I can't find it), but I found myself pretty much agreeing with what he said.
In the end, I'm pretty sure there were only TWO spared out of the entire lot, namely Mukuro and Sphinx for being both (A) singular entities and (B) solely focused on Kazuya. The rest, whether for being too dangerous/risky to keep around or having killed far too many people, couldn't be spared.
Exterminating Barghest and Camazotz is basically just pest control (if pests were far more dangerous and could fuck humans to death)
Exterminating Lampas is a mercy killing more than anything (considering "lighting their lamps" is their entire life purpose, and SURELY they'd all be fine giving that up to co-exist with humans)
Exterminating Empuse, Haru & Liz, Nina, Arachne, Titanoboa, and Daji is just desserts considering how many they've killed (to varying degrees of course)
Exterminating Echo is risk management, plain and simple. The risk of getting a bad one far outweighs the chance of getting a good one.
Exterminating Mother Rabbit is definitely debatable, but even just the chance that another person more could've been saved had she not been there...
Mukuro and Sphinx are the only ones who don't have outright confirmed victims, are singular entities instead of entire species, and they only go after Kazuya instead of trying to harm anyone else.
...Oh, right, just realized I forgot about Lucy. Uh... She was a 50/50 I think, depending on whether you think the people she killed in her previous life counts against her or not. I think he leaned towards spare on her though. So... three spares instead of two.
Still a fucking abysmal ratio of "kill to spare" though, so that should say something.
In the end, I'm pretty sure there were only TWO spared out of the entire lot, namely Mukuro and Sphinx for being both (A) singular entities and (B) solely focused on Kazuya. The rest, whether for being too dangerous/risky to keep around or having killed far too many people, couldn't be spared.
Exterminating Barghest and Camazotz is basically just pest control (if pests were far more dangerous and could fuck humans to death)
Exterminating Lampas is a mercy killing more than anything (considering "lighting their lamps" is their entire life purpose, and SURELY they'd all be fine giving that up to co-exist with humans)
Exterminating Empuse, Haru & Liz, Nina, Arachne, Titanoboa, and Daji is just desserts considering how many they've killed (to varying degrees of course)
Exterminating Echo is risk management, plain and simple. The risk of getting a bad one far outweighs the chance of getting a good one.
Exterminating Mother Rabbit is definitely debatable, but even just the chance that another person more could've been saved had she not been there...
Mukuro and Sphinx are the only ones who don't have outright confirmed victims, are singular entities instead of entire species, and they only go after Kazuya instead of trying to harm anyone else.
...Oh, right, just realized I forgot about Lucy. Uh... She was a 50/50 I think, depending on whether you think the people she killed in her previous life counts against her or not. I think he leaned towards spare on her though. So... three spares instead of two.
Still a fucking abysmal ratio of "kill to spare" though, so that should say something.
- Jul 7, 2023
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You just ignored everything he said? If you don't understand why kazuya killing the demons is wrong you didn't understand the point of shrift at all. Kazuya in true mercy acknowledges the fact that there are some demons are pure evil but he comes to the conclusion that killing all demons is meaningless and would help the evil one, and he literally would not have been able to save his friends or himself had it not been for demons literally helping him throughout the entire game lol. Nekomata designed genocide perfectly with the intent to filter people who just want to kill everything and not understand the story he's trying to tell.
Did you ignore everything I said? I am talking about genociding demons as a concept, not Kazuya or his story. I am trying to say why I believe it's morally right to genocide 'most' demons. Kazuya saying they helped him has literally nothing to do with what im talking about. I don't even think the original commentor was talking about Kazuya, where did you even get this conclusion from?
- Nov 25, 2020
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Hmm, I never noticed the fact that they shouldn't be aware of each other, however, it's not all far fetched to say tehy met in the middle of genocide.
The lab girl herself ssaid she had been watching us since the beginning, and she is also capable of invading the literal AFTERLIFE with whatever tech gizmos he has, like she does in pacifist route.
So, something along the lines of this
> Watch Some human
> He's (rightfully) going all john wick mode
> "There's no way he'll beat the experimental wea-"
> Dead and buried
> Ohfuckohfuckohfuck
> Notice a strange patial anomaly within his safe house
> Further investigation
> It's the bloody after life
> Turns out, they don't really like this either, but they can't interfere either
> Become friends or ssomething as you watch a timeline burn
Now as for the 'karma' feature, i actually think that's a good addition, I don't hate the concept of a genocide route or even meta mechanics or being punished for my blood thirsst, but shrift never did this concept well at all, anyone in here has likely heard of dozenss of undertale parallels so I won't mention them.
However in general there are sstrange timeline diffeences between geno and pacificst. For example Yuuma state that the reasson they were travelling in the first place is to take Kazuya to some weird shrine to get rid of all the Samael presence within hiss body, as he states that kazuya has started
(anyone who gave the game above 3 stars probably does, I'm sorry, I can respect only so many opinions)
This is an equally silly response aswell, yes, YOU DO have to. The demons are going to keep coming back, and if you continously lose you literally have your soul corrupted over time, just because death isn't the option for you doesn't mean you aren't in any danger.
Titanoboa and Arachne aren't the only ones who are problematic, the only argument you can make is that demons aren't aware of the fact that death is permament for humans. Because they come back, this is reasonable to assume... only for the barghest and the quetz- quetzaco- the parasite thing who are stated to be lower intelligence. Every other demon girl should know the consequences of death, not knowing such is just plain ignorance.
We are different, humans and demons can never coexist, demons literally live on predating humans, they predate on SEVERAL planets across an INFINITE number of timelines, and they can just come back, we can't. The humans and kazuyas of those earthss only have one home to go to, demons are an invasive species, they need to be gotten rid of.
I'm not gonna claim my cause is moral, as one can argue killing an intelligent creature is always wrong, however I believe that demon killing is what's right for humanity's survival, because reminder, the demons also didn't have to kill people like you so claim that we don't aswell.
I can... kinda agree on this? Mukuro and Sphinx are both ssorta self centered in a way that they prevent you from going on your path and do just about the same thing as any other demon, but I guess they aren't outright evil as Mukuro can give up, and Sphinx jusst runs away if you win her night impossibly unfair game.
I wouldn't blame someone for fighting back against them either, especially since:
1. One being is a time stopping entity where 1 mistake could give you an instant loss
2. Another is a being far larger than the average demon (and stronger too) with the ability to take away your intelligence. Had sphinx been slightly maliciouss, we could literally be brain dead.
1. The girls specifically helped him from a threat which has no reason to exist, samael and the Old one are one of the worst aspects of this game which try to force a narrative that genocide is the worst route to go towards becausse it ends up with the old one taking over. We are completely ignorant about the old one for a majority of the game, and only until ex4 do we actually get some kind of understanding. The game intentionally keeps you ignorant, it forces down the narrative of Kazuya quite literally losing control over himself and just killing for the sake of it, something we the player aren't even in control of anymore.
2. It doesn't help 'the evil ones', it helps the demons. They are immortal parasites which invaded our world, that should give you enough reason but since it clearly didn't let me explain again.
They invaded first, they also DIDN'T HAVE TO (in capital letters so you dont miss it) to kill humans, no, orders or any other excusess aren't good arguments, they're biased and avoid assigning responsibility which people seem to assign to geno truthers.
They inherently benefit from killing humans, which they did, everywhere throughout the game proven by the letters we se.
The moment we fight back, suddenly we become the bad guy, the whole 'you're losing yourself' narrative is crammed into the story
Nekomata does everything wrong and makes an absolute mess that doesn't learn anything from the game it is very likely inspired by, further enhanced by his own lack of self awareness at how bad the story looks when you look at it from the lense of a normal person. He intentionally made the geno route nigh impossible to complete legitimately. This is not the actions of a developer who wants to show you both sides, this is the reaction of a developer who wants to force down a narrative down your throat like the girls force themselves on you.
To finish of the last point in reply to multiple people. Some people seem to be strangely not aware that the only reason why everything works out so well with Kazuya is because of the god given circumstances surronding him.
1. He is connected to player, giving him the help of someone who can straight up rewrite fate for him. Which mind you, saved him from death at the literal first shelter.
2. He has magic, which states to inherently make you stronger too, along with giving you a versatile tool for combat because of Reina, this is the only way he actually could survive for so long and have the option to be so strong he could spare demons
3. He had the My room, which gave him both resources and power to survive certain unlucky circumstances.
4. He had the assitancee of mira, the professor, and Hyakki, a privlege which few
Kazuya is an outlier when it comes to humans, he has the chance to get a demon harem, or get rid of demons, him communicating with them never actually does any net benefit for the world at large, only for himself, while making demons fear him (since they're immortal anyways) prevents them from coming back in the first place.
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Lots of people have responded so I'll just make some general clarifications:
- I'm arguing about whether it's justifiable for Kazuya specifically to carry out a merciless route. As an average human then sure, it's not realistic to expect them to carry out a pacifist route, since it would be simply too dangerous for them. For the very same reason, it would be impossible for them to do a merciless route as well (no way an average person could fight all demons to the death and live to tell the tale). So there's not much of a point in arguing whether merciless or pacifist is better from the perspective of the average human, as both routes could only be done by Kazuya and are untenable for them; at most, the average guy could aspire to a neutral route (and it would involve running away a lot)
- Some have made more arguments about how the demons are also evil or whatever, but I think this misses the point I was making. Sure, you can probably assign blame to the demons for what is happening, but does that actually change anything materially? You still have the option to kill all demons or to befriend all demons, and the latter leads to a better world.
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If collaboration between humans and demons is achievable and you know this, then why would you choose to exterminate demons? Because you want to kill stuff, and you want to see what happens if you kill everything. And there's nothing wrong with that! It's just a game, after all, not everything you do has to be the correct choice and oftentimes not taking the correct choice is more interesting. But you can't expect the game to also pat you in the back for it from a narrative perspective. In fact, the game getting mad at you is what makes merciless interesting, I'd be pretty disappointed if the "im going to fucking kill everything" route in a game that repeatedly tells you that you don't need to fucking kill everything did not make you evil in the slightest. Since morbid curiosity at seeing what happens is most people's reason for doing merciless (again, nobody does merciless in their first playthrough), the trope of losing control to an entity that just wants to kill everything is not really out of line.You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.
- Nov 25, 2020
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You're still avoiding the fact that the demons are the agressors and have caused tremendous damage to the earth and its people, without either proper punishment to the bonafide gods that rule I can't say that it's fair or expected of us to simply spare them in the first place.
That's not really the case, and it's like looking through a keyhole, it's not the big picture.
First, he still works as a demon hunter, or pacifier, so it's clearly not a "welp, we're done here" done deal. To what scale demons are still an issue is something we do not know, so it's pointless to argue over that fact, either way, demons cannot be stopped with peace negotiations.
Also, they'll just... go to a different earth? These are almost immortal timeline travelling beings who quite literally cannonically know what you do in other timelines because they've seen you personally, or heard about you through some of their friends who went to a different earth.
I'm not going to offer peace to beings who never gave us that options in the first place, while Kazuya has to spare them dozens of times where they were definitely out for blood before they even consider doing the same.
You're just assuming things about people. I came to play this game because I heard that it was meta, not because it had a genocide route where my killing of virtual beings had consequences. I played a game where the demons have never given me a reason to give them even an ounce of sympathy, i'm pragmatic in my nature, getting rid of the problem, especially a problem like an infinitely spawning race of demons who can cross timelines. Needs to be taken care of at its root, because Kazuya's solution didn't give peace, it simply created a half assesd cease fire, after his eventual death the demons will simply fall into their old habits.
If it weren't for samael and The old one, the consequences of the geno route wouldn't exist, and you'd have a race of self centered demonss who don't even want to step foot on your planet anymore because it's not fun when the prey ends up fighting back.
While threats like Titanoboa and Daji can't be taken care of individually like geno kazuya did, If daji couldn't survive the rail gun, which was likely one of many tools humanity has, they're not impossible threats to beat.
A free earth with no demons or an earth with demonic coexistence where they still somewhat (to an unknown extent) do the same thing they always did, prey on humans.
I don't even have a problem with being blamed or being called evil, Shrift just doesn't do it well in the slightest.
- Dec 9, 2021
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this is really fun, though tbh i just like genocide in general, the idea of killing everything brutally without mercy and growing stronger to the point of being unbeatable is just great, shrift just REALLY doesnt want you to enjoy it and even downright punishes you for it with an unbeatable boss at the end, that however doesnt mean i didnt enjoy killing everything, could do it again without a doubt ill smack sphinx across the face a million times and never get bored of it.
- Nov 25, 2020
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- Dec 9, 2021
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I'm not avoiding it, I believe it's irrelevant. You couldn't expect the average person to have the selflessness, patience and capacity for understanding needed to forgive the demons and become friends with them. Kazuya is not an average person. For Kazuya (and for the player), extermination or friendship (and everything in-between) is a choice, and extermination is no easier than friendship (in fact, it's arguably substantially harder). What is "proper punishment" worth if it were to achieve nothing materially? If we agree that what actually matters is material change, then whether the demons "deserve" punishment or not is irrelevant. It's all about "pragmatism", as you say.
Are you saying you did a merciless route as your first playthrough? Honestly, ballsy move, I respect it. Still, I'd say the majority of players try to do some form of pacifist (or at least neutral) route first, if only because the merciless route is obviously the hardest one (and also because we're all simping for the demon girls), so the "morbid curiosity" trope still holds up for most, imo.
Also I'll admit I did not care much for when the lore got into the timeline-travelling stuff, so I'll assume you're right about that.
Still, I don't think you're being fair to the pacifist route here.
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I think at this point we have to remember that we are playing a porn game. Connecting with the girls (if only by fucking them) is the whole point. This, more than any narrative reason, is probably why the game expects you to pursue the pacifist route and makes it the better one, since it's the one that allows you to connect the most with the demons. The game shows, repeatedly, that demons can be connected with on a personal level. Many do not really understand the significance of death for humans (though others do and just don't care), they are often charismatic, intelligent beings with insecurities, emotions, passions and aspirations of their own. The game emphasises that they are not that different from us and that they can be connected with, that's why they expect you to be sympathetic: when you peacefully dismantle their human-eating ways, they are pretty cool to be around with.
Even if this potential for emotional connection was not enough to make human-demon cooperation worth at least attempting, but this cooperation also happens to be extremely powerful. Imagine how much more advanced humanity could be if they could achieve collaboration with demons?
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So seeking peace between the two races is risky, yes, but it's also high-reward and you can always back out later if it doesn't work (the same cannot be said for genocide). And hey, it just so happens that this path also lets you fuck a bunch of other-worldly demon girls. What's there not to like?
- Dec 15, 2019
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- Sep 21, 2017
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I don't know if anyone else has encountered the bug I did with EX2 and not having a struggle option,but if they have,has anyone found a solution? I also think I have a bug on EX3,when the two fairies do that surprise attack,I can attack them or cast magic and such,but I never get an option to struggle no matter how many turns pass.
- Nov 25, 2020
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It is wholly relevant, and I am equally viewing it from Kazuya's point of view. Pacafist Kazuya definitely enters into naive kindess. While I am a beliver that anyone can change, it doesn't take anyone intelligent to see how idealistic such a view point is. We don't have the time or resources to give everyone 3 or 4 chances, and that's what Kazuya gives to arachne in the game. Even in the marriage sequence SHE STILL KILLS HIM. The only thing keeping her paccified is the fact she's in my room and kazuya has "control" (very weak) over her.
Beings like arachne, of which there are going to be many (and I mean MANY) cannot be cured with kindess, they're too far gone to care about such things, you can only fix them with consequences first, negotiations second. Howver Kazuya's approach is far too kind, to him any kind of punishment to any of the rightfully deserving of punishment girls is cruel, and I obviously don't trust him with that kind of decision.
Do you recall how you can't even do a merciless route without doing a neutral one first? Yeah so I had to get neutral c first before doing that (which strangely also isn't a choice you need to do for mercy route)
As for the timeline stuff, I should be, The details of the game are already fading from my brain since I kinda want them too, if I need to recall things I can read up on my borderline not a review rant.
It's just not an outcome I can accept. As i mentioned previously, Kazuya's method isn't going to work, in the longer term there's going to be alot of casualities which are never going to be solved. I am still thinking from Kazuya's view since he's the only one who can make this choice. Both genocide and pacifist are 2 extremes which can both be criticized (excessive cruelty and excessive kindess) and I'm willing to take the former option (as Kazuya's player) to solve a problem rather than negotiate with it and hardly solve the problem which was the first agressor.
True pacifist hardly implies anything as you can only assume, as we hardly see him doing any notable work for the world to solve the demon problem, and yes, he should do so instead of living in his house full of biological experiments. He'ss the only one who can do so, since he made the choice to spare invaders, he now bares the responsibility of taking care of the problem with so called negotiations.
As for why I don't believe he is succeding. We see in events like Ex2 that one kind of demon can't convince the entirety of its kind to spare kazuya, the lampas straight up gave a rats ass kazuya was a child, he was simple prey in their eyes and they were just chasing their biological instinct to fuse into a light with someone.
There's going to be dozens of demons like this, because the demons didn't come to negotiate with humans like I said, they never tried to, they came to prey on them, while capable of being talked to, kazuya talking to a single barghest, lampass or siren isn't getting the rest of their kind on board.
I get what it's narrative is trying to say, thankfull though I care alot less since this is a femdom game which I only played because of the promises I was given (it was like undertale, it's super meta and so on). So the connection I can form is worth little to me since I am mostly activiely disgusted by most of the girl's actions, and a few which I find digusting looking in apperance.
I stated previously that if it weren't for threats like samael and The old one, genocide would work, the only thing that'd change was kazuya being reasonably weaker. However it's strange how coincidentally 2 god like entities are after Kazuya and can only take control if he.... kills people? hmmm, it's almost like the game had no actual moral argument since its activiely in a biased manner forgives Demon girls and calls you a hypocrite for wanting to save humanity but allegedly letting the old one destroy an entire timeline.
If we're being more reasonable, Samael can stay, but remove this whole killing thing makes it stronger thing and reina will actually be usseful and take care of the problem she created,.
As for the fact he defeated said god with the power of..... 12? as i recall demons, I mean it's incredibly strange, it's obviouss power of friendship vibes but I can't accept that the "love" of a few demons gives Kazuya enough power to beat Samael, it's not logical, the writing made it be so anyways.
Also, Kazuya is the only one who has My Room, and the only one who can have it. Mira only gives him such a thing as assisstance on his journey (as they are aware of The old one and abbadon, but cannot directly interfere themselve, so Kazuya making relationships, and going the pacifist route is ideal for the, so they gave him a way to be rewarded for such actions.)
So no real advancement can come of it besides maybe demon girls becoming scientists and learning how to harness magic in a few industries.
If I had to take some miniscule advancement we can't replicate over the threat of demons disappearing, I'd still take the latter.
Yeah sorry mate, I can't like it, which ultimately gives me the ability to make an ultimately 'evil' decision. I mentioned previously that taking any intelligent life could be argued as an ultimate moral evil no matter what, which I don't find a problem with, if the game was better written and if the dev wasn't wholly biased I would be more willing to consider other outcomes.So seeking peace between the two races is risky, yes, but it's also high-reward and you can always back out later if it doesn't work (the same cannot be said for genocide). And hey, it just so happens that this path also lets you fuck a bunch of other-worldly demon girls. What's there not to like?