Recommending Story-first games

[Raife]

I've seen many people saying how nice it is to have a mature MC for a change, and I feel like we must have played different games. Maybe players are so used to playing students and out-of-work programmers that they can't tell the difference between maturity and having a job?

Yes. The bar for MC 'maturity' is incredibly low. Rock bottom, really. I've ranted about this before, but some of it has to do with a very distorted notion of 'manhood,' which sees performative aggression as the ultimate expression of masculinity, rather than stoicism, self-control and responsibility.

When somebody _does_ write a genuinely mature male MC, as Tlaero has done recently, they get accused of 'hating men' (literally). It's bizarre.

Some of it is gaming culture, I'm afraid. But quite a lot of it is in the floating around in the wider cultural context. It's pernicious and corrosive.

And it didn't used to be that way: Gary Cooper's character in _High Noon_... the man who knows enough about the world to be afraid and doubt themselves, but also understands their ironclad moral duty and personal responsibility, even in hopeless causes, is no longer seen as a 'real man.'

Instead, we get... Jake.

 

[camube]

While Race of Life is pretty uneven, the writing high point is pretty high. I think Veronica is quite realistic, and the dynamic between Allison and the MC (on the bickering path) is really realistic.

While nowhere near S-tier, not even A-tier as a whole game, i do look forward to future writing of Allison and the MC. That particular portion is far above average.

 

[Raife]

See, if Jake was sincere about reconciliation, he would stop fucking everyone else.

I for one think a St. Paul on the road to Damascus-style redemption arc isn't very compelling (it's not really an arc, but a moment). Redemption arcs for truly bad characters need to be slow, intensely painful and tragic -- for both the character and the player. (I.e. massively unpopular among most AVN players.)

For example... a good story first game would use Allison (from RfL) as a mirror that gradually revealed all of the MC's flaws... in a way that made him recognize and truly feel them. As jufot says, Jake says _some_ of the right words -- although his self-justifying speech when we first meet Allison is pure pseudo-contrition and sophistry. The man abandoned his family -- a good family who clearly loved him. He needs to own that, to feel that, to open the possibility of redemption. The process of slowly coming to that realization should be very uncomfortable for the player to roleplay. My guess is that there's a 10% chance of this happening with the Allison arc in RfL... which is enough to keep me playing.

But... a great story-first game would then kill off that precious LI right after the MC deeply understood the awfulness of his behaviour, showed genuine contrition, recognised her pricelessness, and won her back. Now THAT would be something like tragedy that transforms... but it's also something that I never expect to see an AVN dev try (for obvious reasons).

 

[jufot]

I for one think a St. Paul on the road to Damascus-style redemption arc isn't very compelling (it's not really an arc, but a moment). Redemption arcs for truly bad characters need to be slow, intensely painful and tragic -- for both the character and the player. (I.e. massively unpopular among most AVN players.)

I agree with that in general, but in this specific case it feels like Allison is making bigger overtures towards reconciliation than Jake, and that feels unearned, at least for now. I would have expected her to wait for real, measurable improvement on Jake's part beyond cheap words, before inviting him over for a home-cooked dinner.

But... a great story-first game would then kill off that precious LI right after the MC deeply understood the awfulness of his behaviour, showed genuine contrition, recognised her pricelessness, and won her back. Now THAT would be something like tragedy that transforms... but it's also something that I never expect to see an AVN dev try (for obvious reasons).

Oh, that would have been brilliant, I love a tragic death! Surely there is a brave AVN dev out there who can top Acting Lessons on this?

 

[Ezykeyal]

Oh, that would have been brilliant, I love a tragic death! Surely there is a brave AVN dev out there who can top Acting Lessons on this?

 

[Garou24]

Oh, that would have been brilliant, I love a tragic death! Surely there is a brave AVN dev out there who can top Acting Lessons on this?

If only.....

 

[jufot]

If only.....

Wow, alright. I love both of your games and now I'm really excited!

 

[Raife]

Oh, that would have been brilliant, I love a tragic death! Surely there is a brave AVN dev out there who can top Acting Lessons on this?

Now you're just trolling me! (That scene in _Acting Lessons_ was such a disaster, including for the dev.) But I also know, with certainty, that you also 100% agree. You would love to play a game like that.

And it would be awesome. Imagine an AVN with a bunch of anodyne, supportive and kind LIs who just want to have hot sex with the MC and validate his opinions. And one LI ('best girl') who tells the MC the truth about himself -- sees him for the disaster that he actually is, but loves him despite herself. She gradually alters the MCs own understanding of his mode of life and being, to the point where he understands that he has been a bad person (Jake-style) and should be better. They get together after many adventures... and she dies.

That would feel, that would taste, like life to me: the sweet and the bitter.

Best of all, the player would have to deliberately choose that brew for themselves. To get the best girl, they have to _hurt_... and then they lose her anyway.

 

[Raife]

Wow, alright. I love both of your games and now I'm really excited!

I don't believe it for a second. But... I am enjoying both of their games and have started sponsoring Mr. Werewolf's effort. All I can say is: no guts, no glory!

 

[jufot]

Now you're just trolling me! (That scene in _Acting Lessons_ was such a disaster, including for the dev.) But I also know, with certainty, that you also 100% agree. You would love to play a game like that.

Indeed. While the execution was... lackluster, I love that he at least tried. It's certainly unique among AVNs.

That would feel, that would taste, like life to me: the sweet and the bitter.

Best of all, the player would have to deliberately choose that brew for themselves. To get the best girl, they have to _hurt_... and then they lose her anyway.

That sounds amazing and unlikely. Too risky for an AVN developer, especially if they are in it for the money.

 

[camube]

I for one think a St. Paul on the road to Damascus-style redemption arc isn't very compelling (it's not really an arc, but a moment). Redemption arcs for truly bad characters need to be slow, intensely painful and tragic -- for both the character and the player. (I.e. massively unpopular among most AVN players.)

For example... good story first game would use Allison (from RfL) as a mirror that gradually revealed all of the MC's flaws... in a way that made him recognize and truly feel them. As jufot says, Jake says _some_ of the right words -- although his self-justifying speech when we first meet Allison is pure pseudo-contrition and sophistry. The man abandoned his family -- a good family who clearly loved him. He needs to own that, to feel that, to open the possibility of redemption. The process of slowly coming to that realization should be very uncomfortable for the player to roleplay. My guess is that there's a 10% chance of this happening with the Allison arc in RfL... which is enough to keep me playing.

But... a great story-first game would then kill off that precious LI right after the MC deeply understood the awfulness of his behaviour, showed genuine contrition, recognised her pricelessness, and won her back. Now THAT would be something like tragedy that transforms... but it's also something that I never expect to see an AVN dev try (for obvious reasons).

I agree with the portion of your post where you think MC is a dick to his ex-wife. He is.
Both him and Allison portion of the game is realistic exactly because of that dynamic.

 

[camube]

is shards of the past the game where our past decisions affects other characters in the present or something like that?

cuz if so, Seeking Closure is trying to do the same thing too.

 

[Dessolos]

I see some post here about things they didn't like about Race of Life it's personally in my top 3 but not really here to defend if it's a good or bad game especially cause everyone likes different things.

I just wanted to say even if it doesn't count for this thread I personally putting Race of Life on my personal story first game list. because unlike alot of AVN game I've played Race of Life feels like it's always moving the story forward instead of getting to know LI over story. To me that's the definition of story first not the quality of the story but I understand the quality should matter to some extent. Just wanted to state my opinion even if it ultimately doesn't matter

 

[Garou24]

I don't believe it for a second. But... I am enjoying both of their games and have started sponsoring Mr. Werewolf's effort. All I can say is: no guts, no glory!

With a gasp of disbelief, she stared at Raife, who did not trust her words.

 

[camube]

because unlike alot of AVN game I've played Race of Life feels like it's always moving the story forward instead of getting to know LI over story. To me that's the definition of story first not the quality of the story

this is why i think arson betrayal is story-first, cuz the story keeps moving

pacing is pretty amazing tbh

 

[thanks for the demos]

That would feel, that would taste, like life to me: the sweet and the bitter.

Best of all, the player would have to deliberately choose that brew for themselves. To get the best girl, they have to _hurt_... and then they lose her anyway.

To sum it up: you're looking for a mix of classic greek tragedy and the emotional equivalent of NTR, where instead of her getting fucked by another dude, you're both getting fucked by circumstance/fate? (so, basically, classic greek tragedy, but in AVN form)

Considering the apparent popularity of that three letter genre, I'd assume this to be a subgenre that actually exist(s/ed).

 

[turbojoe]

If only.....

Shards of the past`s description reminds me on SnowStorm, which I really loved!
So I´ll give it a try

 

[Raife]

To sum it up: you're looking for a mix of classic greek tragedy and the emotional equivalent of NTR, where instead of her getting fucked by another dude, you're both getting fucked by circumstance/fate? (so, basically, classic greek tragedy, but in AVN form)

Considering the apparent popularity of that three letter genre, I'd assume this to be a subgenre that actually exist(s/ed).

Definitely not the emotional equivalent of NTR. The MC wins: a better version of himself, and the love of someone worthy of loving and being loved. He certainly doesn't lose her to another or experience betrayal. That's a different kind of pain entirely.

There's also something strange that can happen when someone who loves you unconditionally dies: they stay with you, and can become an immense source of strength, particularly in dark times. After all, if Mr. or Ms. X thought you were worthy of love... then maybe Y or Z dark moments aren't so bad. You're never quite alone. (Not sure if this makes me sound romantic or nuts, but it's true in my experience.)

Finally, no -- there's no sub-genre of tragic AVNs. How do I know? Well, (A) because jufot would have a bunch of them on his list, and (B) they would be commercial disasters.

Most players play AVNs as a sort of wish fulfillment... they don't want any pain or aggro with their porn. Some of the denizens of this list are eccentric... but most of the players on this site would not touch a tragic AVN -- or even an AVN with a tragic sub-plot -- with a barge pole.

 

[Raife]

With a gasp of disbelief, she stared at Raife, who did not trust her words.

First, I never trust a strange werewolf, on the same principle that you should never smile at a crocodile.

And secondly, I now find myself being trolled by both jufot and a dev I respect. It's like Christmas!

 

[Bombmaster]

Definitely not the emotional equivalent of NTR. The MC wins: a better version of himself, and the love of someone worthy of loving and being loved. He certainly doesn't lose her to another or experience betrayal. That's a different kind of pain entirely.

There's also something strange that can happen when someone dies who loves you unconditionally: they stay with you, and can become an immense source of strength, particularly in dark times. After all, if Mr. or Ms. X thought you were worthy of love... then maybe Y or Z dark moments aren't so bad. You're never quite alone. (Not sure if this makes me sound romantic or nuts, but it's true in my experience.)

Finally, no -- there's no sub-genre of tragic AVNs. How do I know? Well, (A) because jufot would have a bunch of them on his list, and (B) they would be commercial disasters.

Most players play AVNs as a sort of wish fulfillment... they don't want any pain or aggro with their porn. Some of the denizens of this list are eccentric... but most of the players on this site would not touch a tragic AVN -- or even an AVN with a tragic sub-plot -- with a barge pole.

nice points, i dig the drama and martyrdom for the Mc/Hero and clearly is not a commom troupe.
I guess you need a game with two routes to allow having a soul crushing path and a lighter one for the most sane folks.

Noticed the drama is always dished into Lis and side characters as Mc need to remain hollow and pure.