Unreal Engine Completed Subverse [v1.0] [Studio Fow]
- Jul 10, 2017
- 6,158
- 6,567
Investment is something that will reward you over time. DONATE to get a project realized doesn't necessary reward you with anything else than product become available so you can buy it. Some kickstarter projects offer rewards, not all do. If the kickstarter is successful and reach its goal. Creators get the funds, kickstarter take their 5% cut... If the realization of the project fails, the creators keep the funds, have spent the funds, or whatever. Treating kickstarter as an investment is like buy ENRON stocks 20 years later..
Investment is a financial support with an intent of getting returns from it, secured by acquiring legally bounding stake in it in form of shares, for example. You hope to get more out of something than you've put in while of course taking a risk of losing your contribution.
In case of Kickstarter you are not getting that no matter what, there is zero legal obligations and any profit company makes using your funds will remain within it or pocketed by it's proper owners.
- Jun 19, 2017
- 4,168
- 6,132
It's kinda futile to argue about the word investment and whether to understand it in general or financial terms. In practice most kickstarters (Subverse included) offer prepurchases of their product, which means you'll give X amount of money now to get that something you've bought later on. How you want to call that doesn't really matter, his point was that it's a clear difference compared to patreon, which is certainly the case.
- Jul 10, 2017
- 6,158
- 6,567
Just as Patreon as a platform doesn't promise anything, or hold the creator accountable to deliver what you want. Neither does Kickstarter as a platform. Only difference is kickstarter is a way to gather cash up front, where patreon is about fund creator over time.
Ah ha. I got it. I concede that point to both of you. I suppose they are both fundamentally just a financial support system which do not guarantee anything, so the creators really are not obligated to do anything. I kinda felt like it was a stretch myself when making that last point, so I ain't gonna argue for argument's sake. I stand by my other statements though. I really see no future in this game unless they actually make changes to the game design, and not just adding more stuff within the same system. More mantics in grid combat won't do anything to make it better because there is no system for unit customization of any kind. More enemies won't do anything either because the combat system itself is flawed. Ship combat has no system in place to customize ships in a meaningful way. And you know what most people think about the pandora system.
- Jul 31, 2020
- 247
- 137
- Jun 19, 2017
- 4,168
- 6,132
It's not about the platform, but about the responsibility and moral liability of a dev.
As he said, the main difference between the two is that on kickstarter a dev has to promise something (product X, with Y amount of content at releasedate Z) and should of course deliver on what he promised. After all, that's what people payed their money for and they have a (moral) "right" to get what they were promised. If the dev doesn't deliver at the end, they have every right to be upset.
On Patreon the whole concept is tailored to towards "patronage" and most games have simply do not have a concept of said targets for X, Y or Z, so it's up to these patrons to decide whether the dev is still worth his money or not. If a patreon dev doesn't deliver, his patrons have little to no moral right, because it was on them to see if the project was going as it should have or not.
Kickstarter has of course the huge benefit that a dev knows his budget from the start and is able to plan accordingly, which makes the whole development a lot easier. On patreon it's much more volatile and most devs have to change their plans several times accordingly.
Last edited:
- Jul 10, 2017
- 6,158
- 6,567
I come across creators of "low morale" both on Patreon and Kickstarter. You see creators on Patreon promise things all the time with their "goals". If reach x will start full time, yada yada... I see no difference between a creator on Patreon promise something, and what get promised on a kickstarter. The only thing that differs is the funding.
Some kickstarters reach their goals, some doesn't. Many never reach their goals at all, a very few blow up beyond expectations. Once the KS is over and projected started though, that is their war chest... A creator on patreon that gain momentum and keep growing will keep do so over time and just increase their funding unless they start screw it up, fail to deliver on their promises and what the backers bought in for.
- Jun 19, 2017
- 4,168
- 6,132
On kickstarter you give the money upfront and you have to rely on the dev to deliver what he promised. On Patreon you can just stop your pledge and cut your losses once a dev misses a deadline or delivers content/makes changes to his plans you don't like. If you continue giving that dev money at that point, even though you aren't happy with his work, that's your problem and not his. Are you sure that's not a difference?
Well, you say yourself there's a difference. On kickstarter all that money is payed in advance and backers have no way to back out, even if they wanted to.
In short, on kickstarter it's a dev's duty to deliver what he promised while he collected the money, on patreon it's a dev's duty to work on his project.
- Dec 9, 2017
- 2,738
- 6,862
I think it would help if you considered the Pandora scenes (Recruitment scenes being an exception as they occur when you bring the girl on the team), as the everyday fucking your crew does.
First time with a lady, sure that’s an occasion and is highlighted in the story appropriately. But time goes by, even if the game isn’t showing it.
By the game’s story, Killi’s introductory quest took them weeks to accomplish, that’s a lot of boning that can go down in the meantime.
So the really important lovey-dovey stuff will likely be in the story, but all the fucking these ladies are doing couldn’t be possibly be all broken down and explained, otherwise we’d likely have a 100 hour game, and we’d be nowhere near as far in the game’s development as we are.
- Jul 10, 2017
- 6,158
- 6,567
A creator on patreon can "string" people along for quite some time before the gig is up. If you donate 50 bucks to a kickstarter, or spend the same on pledge to a creator on patreon over time, you can get bent the same regardless. In the end you would get burnt still the same. So the argument of you can always pull pledge on Patreon doesn't mean much when the money already spent.
- Dec 9, 2017
- 2,738
- 6,862
regarding the combat systems thats a big Yet. We know mantics will have evolutions, and the waifus will eventually get gear upgrades.
- Jun 19, 2017
- 4,168
- 6,132
For those who spend large amounts early on in projects that's true. But in that case they (should) know what they are doing and have no real reaon to complain, either. To make the comparison fair, the amount of money spent total should of course be somewhat similar. After all, most devs on patreon offer $1 tiers, where 50$ equal 4 years of development.
You got exactly what I was going for when making that statement, but I won't hold on to a position that has clear holes in its defense.
My basic argument was indeed that kickstarter projects are generally framed in a way where they say they will deliver a product if they get x amount of money (unlike patreon where they are just working on whatever and people can pledge if they want). However, I was not as familiar with their system as I am with patreon when making the post. With some more digging around, it seems like kickstarter projects indeed do not have to have any rewards. For example, there was a kickstarter for opening a branch of dance studio in another city. Reward for the basic level was nothing. Rewards for tiers after that were for merchandise like shirts.
So fundamentally, the kickstarter system itself doesn't really dictate that the devs reward backers with the thing the kickstarter is raising money to do. Plus, my misuse of the term "investment" is something I realized after that fact. In general, investments are made in exchange for equity or a stake in the project. Kickstarter doesn't work that way. Lets drop this topic with this XD I can feel the nuke coming.
Well that's something, I guess. They will have to do a lot more than that to salvage the tactical combat side. They called it a "tactical RPG." It's lacking the tactical and the RPG as it stands lol. Let's see what happens. I'll bow out for now.
- Jul 10, 2017
- 6,158
- 6,567
actually, to quote... "a tactical RPG/SHMUP hybrid ", if you just extract "tactical RPG" from that, the meaning become something different than when you include it all right?
- Jun 19, 2017
- 4,168
- 6,132
That's what I meant with responsibility. As someone who starts a project on kickstarter, you essentially "owe" what you've promised at the beginning - whatever that may be. Be it some kind of game to download or a new dance studio in town.
The fundamental difference remains that kickstarter usually has a goal that's meant to be reached once the money is collected. It seems rare that a project just says "I'll just work on this, i'll try to add lots of content, i don't know what it'll be but we'll see how it goes, if you like it please give money". That's on the other hand how the vast majority of patreon projects start, even big ones like let's say SummertimeSaga.
But yeah, it's not really useful here, though I'd say it partly explains why, among many other reasons, some aren't happy with the game.
Last edited:
I was obviously talking about the grid combat side of it, for which "tactical RPG" is the moniker they used. The SHMUP side is passable, although it also lacks depth.