Unreal Engine Completed Subverse [v1.1.1] [Studio Fow]

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T

TK8000

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Game Developer
Jul 9, 2017
794
3,606
SomeOriginalUsername said:
but virtually nothing else was the same. The Subverse UV Map had far more vertices (represented by all those lines you see), it had several additional meshes that the Honey Select model didn't have (for example, the vagina is a separate mesh in Subverse, but in Honey Select it's a part of the body and has much lower mesh density because Illusion never intended it to be seen past a mosaic), and proportions on certain parts are immediately recognizable as different (you can see in the UV Maps that Subverse's hands are actually like hands, while Honey Select's look like fingers sprouting out of the forearm).
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Hello! As one of the pioneers using Honey Select to create derivative games, I was always kind of fascinated by this subject and when I found out that Subverse could be using assets from Illusion, I decided to do a little research.

As for UV-Maps, if what the Russian user posted is true (on the first pages of this topic), then unfortunately they are the same UV-Maps. The fact that they added more vertices does not mean much. There are mods for hi-res bodies in Honey Select that use the same UV-Map as the original bodies, but with more vertices added.

The position of the vagina is also not so important. Honey Select mods often use another part of the UV Map for the vagina (just like the Subverse guys apparently did).

About the hands, I also went to look more closely. The first evidence is an alleged image showing the hands of both games having exactly the same geometry. However, this can be easily forged. What cannot be forged, however, is the end result and I am 99.9% sure that Subverse models use the same hand as Honey Select. This does not prove that the Subverse guys stole the model, however. They may simply have used the same asset library as Illusion or something.

What makes me a little incredulous in this whole story is that to export the Honey Select models and use them in a 3D program you just need to follow a 15 minute tutorial on Youtube. The modder community has already done all the heavy work so Honey Select is currently the laziest option possible, the thing you choose if you have 0 dollars and need a model ready in less than two days. This is very strange because Subverse is a $2 million game that took years to be made. I don't believe they would choose such a lazy option when they can pay, let's say, $500 on high-quality base models ready to be used in 3D games/Unreal Engine 4. It is inconceivable to me that they needed to waste time stealing assets from Honey Select, unless they were tricked by the artist who made the game's models.
 
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IG88a

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Oct 9, 2019
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TK8000 said:
Hello! As one of the pioneers using Honey Select to create derivative games, I was always kind of fascinated by this subject and when I found out that Subverse could be using assets from Illusion, I decided to do a little research.

As for UV-Maps, if what the Russian user posted is true (on the first pages of this topic), then unfortunately they are the same UV-Maps. The fact that they added more vertices does not mean much. There are mods for hi-res bodies in Honey Select that use the same UV-Map as the original bodies, but with more vertices added.

The position of the vagina is also not so important. Honey Select mods often use another part of the UV Map for the vagina (just like the Subverse guys apparently did).

About the hands, I also went to look more closely. The first evidence is an alleged image showing the hands of both games having exactly the same geometry. However, this can be easily forged. What cannot be forged, however, is the end result and I am 99.9% sure that Subverse models use the same hand as Honey Select. This does not prove that the Subverse guys stole the model, however. They may simply have used the same asset library as Illusion or something.
Click to expand...
Quality post. Very damning.

To export the Honey Select models and use them in a 3D program you just need to follow a 15 minute tutorial on Youtube. The modder community has already done all the heavy work so Honey Select is currently the laziest option possible, the thing you choose if you have 0 dollars and need a model ready in less than two days. This is very strange because Subverse is a $2 million game that took years to be made. I don't believe they would choose such a lazy option when they can pay, let's say, $500 on high-quality base models ready to be used in 3D games/Unreal Engine 4. It is inconceivable to me that they needed to waste time stealing assets from Honey Select, unless they were tricked by the artist who made the game's models.
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The models predate the 2 mil, so view things through the lens of their budget when they were requesting ~60k for 3 of them to live off ramen for a few months to make the basegame. This was bushleague from the start. A few posters have alleged that they could have been defrauded by a modeler using this lazy shortcut, but it wouldn't surprise me if they knew exactly what was being done even if this snowballs and they deny it.

I'm pretty sure Illusion is the source of the models on honey select and that everything in their games are inhouse. Considering that, the fact that certain parts are clearly Illusion IP, FOW and subverse are fucked. Doesn't matter if they knew or if they were defrauded, Sword of Damocles is a C&D and lawsuit over IP theft. Everything fruit of the poison tree style about subverse, the prerendered cutscenes, the rigging system, etc. is built on IP theft.
 
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G

Ghost2894

Member
Nov 17, 2020
114
186
VValen said:
Also can't really be a fundraiser scam if they aren't taking in more money like say Star Citizen, they're working with what they got.
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I haven't been keeping up to date with their plans but I didnt know they stopped taking funds. So I guess I can cut em some slack there.

A little tip for everyone else if it hasnt been brought up (this thread is 165 pages long) your aim in space combat is relative to the mouse's placement on the screen. I noticed while sitting still waiting for more enemies to spawn, that when the camera adjusts, it obviously makes the cursor position move relative to your ships position. So every time the camera moves even while just flying around it actually forces your aim in one way or another. It's most notable near the edges of a combat area. It's something of an inconvenience when you take into account that you're already adjusting for travel time on these really slow bullets as you try to lead targets.

The only way I can think of that would negate this is if they eventually add controller support since your aim would be a static direction based on the last movement of the analog stick
 
Deleted member 324588

Deleted member 324588

Engaged Member
Dec 9, 2017
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Ghost2894 said:
I haven't been keeping up to date with their plans but I didnt know they stopped taking funds. So I guess I can cut em some slack there.

A little tip for everyone else if it hasnt been brought up (this thread is 165 pages long) your aim in space combat is relative to the mouse's placement on the screen. I noticed while sitting still waiting for more enemies to spawn, that when the camera adjusts, it obviously makes the cursor position move relative to your ships position. So every time the camera moves even while just flying around it actually forces your aim in one way or another. It's most notable near the edges of a combat area. It's something of an inconvenience when you take into account that you're already adjusting for travel time on these really slow bullets as you try to lead targets.

The only way I can think of that would negate this is if they eventually add controller support since your aim would be a static direction based on the last movement of the analog stick
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There is controller support, just for the ship gameplay atm.
 
R

Razrback16

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2020
1,872
4,081
Ghost2894 said:
I haven't been keeping up to date with their plans but I didnt know they stopped taking funds. So I guess I can cut em some slack there.

A little tip for everyone else if it hasnt been brought up (this thread is 165 pages long) your aim in space combat is relative to the mouse's placement on the screen. I noticed while sitting still waiting for more enemies to spawn, that when the camera adjusts, it obviously makes the cursor position move relative to your ships position. So every time the camera moves even while just flying around it actually forces your aim in one way or another. It's most notable near the edges of a combat area. It's something of an inconvenience when you take into account that you're already adjusting for travel time on these really slow bullets as you try to lead targets.

The only way I can think of that would negate this is if they eventually add controller support since your aim would be a static direction based on the last movement of the analog stick
Click to expand...
Ya controller works good for schmup - controls are smooth for it, would definitely recommend giving your controller a go.
 
S

SomeOriginalUsername

Member
Apr 29, 2018
212
250
TK8000 said:
Hello! As one of the pioneers using Honey Select to create derivative games, I was always kind of fascinated by this subject and when I found out that Subverse could be using assets from Illusion, I decided to do a little research.

As for UV-Maps, if what the Russian user posted is true (on the first pages of this topic), then unfortunately they are the same UV-Maps. The fact that they added more vertices does not mean much. There are mods for hi-res bodies in Honey Select that use the same UV-Map as the original bodies, but with more vertices added.

The position of the vagina is also not so important. Honey Select mods often use another part of the UV Map for the vagina (just like the Subverse guys apparently did).

About the hands, I also went to look more closely. The first evidence is an alleged image showing the hands of both games having exactly the same geometry. However, this can be easily forged. What cannot be forged, however, is the end result and I am 99.9% sure that Subverse models use the same hand as Honey Select. This does not prove that the Subverse guys stole the model, however. They may simply have used the same asset library as Illusion or something.

What makes me a little incredulous in this whole story is that to export the Honey Select models and use them in a 3D program you just need to follow a 15 minute tutorial on Youtube. The modder community has already done all the heavy work so Honey Select is currently the laziest option possible, the thing you choose if you have 0 dollars and need a model ready in less than two days. This is very strange because Subverse is a $2 million game that took years to be made. I don't believe they would choose such a lazy option when they can pay, let's say, $500 on high-quality base models ready to be used in 3D games/Unreal Engine 4. It is inconceivable to me that they needed to waste time stealing assets from Honey Select, unless they were tricked by the artist who made the game's models.
Click to expand...
I see no such post on the first page, so I had to google around for a bit and seem to have found it:
You must be registered to see the links

That does look similar, but as you say it could be forged, not like it would be the first time someone has done that just to add fuel to the fire (like the "Netorare Unlocked" photoshop). I'm especially dubious of this screenshot because the post I got it from claims they found it on 4chan.

With that said, I did ask someone else in another discussion about the UV maps and this is what they provided: https://attachments.f95zone.to/2021/04/1138669_unknown.png
Even with the low-quality screenshot you can see they are not the same UV map. The claim that I saw was the the UV maps were "exactly the same", therefore the models were the same, but that's clearly not the case; the entire reason I went into explaining how UV maps are generated from 3D models was to illustrate there are more parts to Subverse's model that simply do not exist on the Honey Select model, because if they did, the program that generated the Honey Select UV maps would've included them. That has nothing to do with how modders put vagina textures on the unused space.

With that said, I stated it's still possible it's a heavily edited model; I agree it's possible that StudioFOW upscaled the model, carved out the crotch to make room for an entirely new vagina model, and enlarged the hands (among other differences), but the fact is you'd need to run a comparison analysis between the two models to identify the telltale signs of editing to prove Subverse's model is actually an edited Honey Select model. This is not something you eyeball and can declare with any confidence is a stolen asset, which leads to my next (somewhat ranty) point...

And I'm sorry, but I'm going to be a little rude here: what the fuck does "What cannot be forged, however, is the end result and I am 99.9% sure that Subverse models use the same hand as Honey Select" even mean? The models look similar, therefore you're positive they're the same? Does the fact that Dead or Alive and 2B can be recreated in Honey Select also mean those three companies all used the same models? Does the fact that Miku Miku Dance and Custom Maid 3D characters look similar make you 99.9% sure they're the same models? They're all chasing variations of the simplified anime aesthetic, of course the end results will look similar. I have absolutely no qualms about the similar results raising suspicions, but it shouldn't be within a fucking mile of a conclusion, especially if that conclusion is "oh, they committed a crime".

I'm trying to keep an open mind here, I will always ask for evidence rather than outright refuse a claim based on second hand accounts, but so far I've seen nothing but evidence that doesn't support the claim and a lot of useless conjecture. That's apparently enough for people who are hellbent on hating the game no matter what, but it shouldn't be for anyone else.
 
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rf96

rf96

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On Kickstarter they say:
We need more animators, so if you're a hotshot Blender/Maya animator who thinks they're up to the challenge, do drop me an email at fowstudios@gmail.com
Serious inquiries only please, we've had cocky hotshots with 20K+ Patreons audition in the past and they've flamed out at the first hurdle so let's not waste each other's time :)
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But I'm really wondering who they're talking about, considering that the animators with the most patrons only have 6000 patrons.
 
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Joshua Tree

Joshua Tree

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Jul 10, 2017
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rf96 said:
On Kickstarter they say:

But I'm really wondering who they're talking about, considering that the animators with the most patrons only have 6000 patrons.
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Could been someone that do more than just animation. What you need to do is compile a list of everyone that could possible match, that got a patreon size in the 20k range right? :ROFLMAO:
 
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2.90 star(s) 314 Votes