VN Ren'Py Summer's Gone [S1 Steam + DLC] [Oceanlab]

[Interemptor]

You know, I agree with you ninety-nine percent. But the remaining one percent of my doubts require a little more text, shitload of text actually, so I put it under a spoiler

Spoiler: Shitload of text

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You make a lot of great points that I completely agree with. Yes, project management is a completely different beast that Ocean may not be as good as, and the whole quality of the project may suffer for it. Yes, finding good hardworking people is not as easy as it may seem from a distance, especially for something as niche as a crowdfunded AVN. The last point is where we start to disagree, but it's more a matter of opinion than anything we can objectively nail down.

You argue that an artist who has released their work to the public has the liberty to persue their work at their own pace in their own way. I would argue that the second the artist has chosen to make their work public they have taken on a responsibility towards their consumers. If by some miracle the game is finished at one point and I get to consume it whole I would not be doing so in a vacuum. It would be done in the context of how long it took to be made, how the artists has communicated throughout, what promises they made and how will they were kept and so on.

If he had chosen to develop it in private then release it finished, then sure. Go nuts. I will admit that that is financially unfeasible and practically impossible without some bankrolling, but that doesn't change the current reality of the situation. I was just trying to rub one out to some 3D girls, I found this game that had great reviews and apparently a really good story, I went through it and tried it out and loved it. Now I'm emotionally invested. I want the artist to deliver a good product in their own time and to their own standards, but withen reason.

You talked, rightfully I may add, about the practical difficulties of expediting the process and by your own admission it would be difficult but not impossible. I believe Ocean has an obligation to, at the very least, try to overcome these difficulties.

But all of that isn't even my mine gripe. I will excuse a failure of team and resource management. But the constant self inflicted setbacks are quite honestly infuriating. SG on its own is a mammoth undertaking, and he decides to develop another game concurrently? How does that make sense? Prioritizing remakes over story progression? That's like falling into the trap of trying to optimize your code too early in the development cycle.

I love this game. I love his evident technical skill. I admire his commitment to good communication with the audience. I admire his artistic integrity. The naivety of some of his choices is what bothers me.

 

[PaxHadrian17]

You make a lot of great points that I completely agree with. Yes, project management is a completely different beast that Ocean may not be as good as, and the whole quality of the project may suffer for it. Yes, finding good hardworking people is not as easy as it may seem from a distance, especially for something as niche as a crowdfunded AVN. The last point is where we start to disagree, but it's more a matter of opinion than anything we can objectively nail down.

You argue that an artist who has released their work to the public has the liberty to persue their work at their own pace in their own way. I would argue that the second the artist has chosen to make their work public they have taken on a responsibility towards their consumers. If by some miracle the game is finished at one point and I get to consume it whole I would not be doing so in a vacuum. It would be done in the context of how long it took to be made, how the artists has communicated throughout, what promises they made and how will they were kept and so on.

If he had chosen to develop it in private then release it finished, then sure. Go nuts. I will admit that that is financially unfeasible and practically impossible without some bankrolling, but that doesn't change the current reality of the situation. I was just trying to rub one out to some 3D girls, I found this game that had great reviews and apparently a really good story, I went through it and tried it out and loved it. Now I'm emotionally invested. I want the artist to deliver a good product in their own time and to their own standards, but withen reason.

You talked, rightfully I may add, about the practical difficulties of expediting the process and by your own admission it would be difficult but not impossible. I believe Ocean has an obligation to, at the very least, try to overcome these difficulties.

But all of that isn't even my mine gripe. I will excuse a failure of team and resource management. But the constant self inflicted setbacks are quite honestly infuriating. SG on its own is a mammoth undertaking, and he decides to develop another game concurrently? How does that make sense? Prioritizing remakes over story progression? That's like falling into the trap of trying to optimize your code too early in the development cycle.

I love this game. I love his evident technical skill. I admire his commitment to good communication with the audience. I admire his artistic integrity. The naivety of some of his choices are what bother me.

Just a few thoughts for you:

Ocean does have others who work for him - I can't speak to the # of hours of work/week, but he regularly mentions having help in his dev logs.

He also hires freelancers to do major work for him - two examples:

The track and field where the night training occurs is good freelancer work.

Ocean hired a freelancer to code the phone and this person dropped the ball requiring Ocean to step in and do major coding himself (slowing down development of CH 5 - mentioned in at least one dev log).

He is developing SG and WIAB concurrently at least in part to combat burnout.

If this is what he needs to avoid burnout - I Absolutely support it.

What may feel like a slowdown now is related to the rework of early chapters of SG and polishing the entirety of SG Season 1 so it can be released on Steam.

A great Steam release is very important from a resourcing perspective - this will help drive hardware improvements and major music purchases - both key to continued success in developing Season 2 and beyond.

You may not have seen a lot of this information in prior posts - it is spread out over posts for > 1 year, so I am just touching on the highlights, but he is doing a great deal to advance SG.

His vision for SG is Grand - no doubt; he is the most ambitious developer I support with $. Given his creative abilities, commitment to communication, commitment to reinvesting in the ability to tell the SG and WIAB stories well (this includes hardware & software upgrades and learning how to maximize efforts with both, quality music acquisition, and even taking additional English classes to improve his writing), and willingness to team with others, I have not regretted a single minute spent enjoying SG or a single $ spent supporting him.

Cheers!!

 

[Scyths]

Anyone can hit me up with a few Ren'py games that are story focused like this one ? Maybe I'll find one or two that I haven't played yet. I want to be really invested in the story. Not sure you can drop names of others games so feel free to send a DM instead.

Thanks.

 

[ZazzyBoi]

So I have a bug to report, if this is where to do it. If not, point me in the right direction.

Couple shots in this scene have Bella showing up instead of Mila.

Found a second one, if not already known. Didn't know Mila turned Asian and was living with us yet.

 

[Jackie123]

Your guess will be as good as any other. Ocean never gives an exact release date. Based on the latest dev log, we're already close, so yes, most likely October.

I had in mind that it was going to come out sooner but i really dont know im not active in this thread anymore so i thought i might ask

 

[yossa999]

I had in mind that it was going to come out sooner but i really dont know im not active in this thread anymore so i thought i might ask

Yes, in one of WIAB's August dev logs he mentioned September as a likely release date for both games, but apparently he was wrong in his estimates. From the latest SG dev log I gathered that he is still working on the new in-game phone and has made a very good progress on this task, although I get the impression that the Artist in him is again dominate over the internal Product Manager, so it will take more time than expected
Apart from the phone and Vic's new cinematic in the first chapter, everything else seems to have been done, but there are always post-work tasks, testing, proofreading, e.t.c, so my guess would be the end of October. Of course only Ocean knows for sure.
Here is the link to the latest dev log:
https://f95zone.to/threads/summers-gone-ch-4-5-full-oceanlab.29981/post-11766777

 

[bratkoratko]

but apparently he was wrong in his estimates

 

[AlexFXR]

He is developing SG and WIAB concurrently at least in part to combat burnout.

If this is what he needs to avoid burnout - I Absolutely support it.

I don't agree with you. All people who work are susceptible to burnout. I also work and support myself, and I'm burned out too. If I stop working, I won't have money to pay for food and rent. This helps me not to burn out, like everyone else who has a job. According to you, it turns out that in order not to burn out, I need to find a second job. Nobody does that. If you work two jobs at once, a person will not be able to concentrate properly, the quality of work will deteriorate greatly and he will burn out twice as quickly.

 

[BobTheDuck]

I don't agree with you. All people who work are susceptible to burnout. I also work and support myself, and I'm burned out too. If I stop working, I won't have money to pay for food and rent. This helps me not to burn out, like everyone else who has a job. According to you, it turns out that in order not to burn out, I need to find a second job. Nobody does that. If you work two jobs at once, a person will not be able to concentrate properly, the quality of work will deteriorate greatly and he will burn out twice as quickly.

I disagree about the concentrating/quality issue - in creative fields, you have one job, but multiple projects/tasks, often for separate clients. I find that different, concurrent projects help solve problems in other projects. So if I'm not feeling inspired because I can't solve something in one project, rather than punish myself staring at the screen, I move to a different project where I can be productive. While working on the other project, subconsciously I am problem solving. And maybe I come across a different workflow that triggers a solution, or is simply a better process, or is just an inspiring way to do a certain task. In Ocean's process, it's ultimately one big story with different facets, most of the actual tasks are pretty much the same. As he problem solves one thing, he learns for the other.

Everyone has their own ways to be productive. My feelings of burnout usually appear when I'm unable to solve problems, but have to keep beating my head against a deadline.

But you're right about the actual amount of work: too much work is the same a a GFX card running out of RAM, so yeah, making sure you don't overload your own capacity does need to be a conscious decision.

 

[Penfold Mole]

I disagree about the concentrating/quality issue - in creative fields, you have one job, but multiple projects/tasks, often for separate clients. I find that different, concurrent projects help solve problems in other projects. So if I'm not feeling inspired because I can't solve something in one project, rather than punish myself staring at the screen, I move to a different project where I can be productive. While working on the other project, subconsciously I am problem solving. And maybe I come across a different workflow that triggers a solution, or is simply a better process, or is just an inspiring way to do a certain task. In Ocean's process, it's ultimately one big story with different facets, most of the actual tasks are pretty much the same. As he problem solves one thing, he learns for the other.

I also have similar experience. Working on another thing, however similar it is to the one you got stuck with, helps to relax the mind and work on the solution on the thing you have problems with, subconciously.
I am working on many very different things and finding solutions on many different problems at my job and it really helps not to get bored or stuck with any of its aspects, at least not for long.
I've had moments when none of the solutions I tried were working and it seemed that there's no way to make it work. Working on something else, even something similar for a while helps to find a solution much faster than not working at all or thinking about the problem intensively and stressfully.

I have zero doubt that working on two different games, writing and visualizing two different stories helps Ocean to increase the combined workflow, avoid writers block and burnout.

 

[sorco2003]

I also have similar experience. Working on another thing, however similar it is to the one you got stuck with, helps to relax the mind and work on the solution on the thing you have problems with, subconciously.
I am working on many very different things and finding solutions on many different problems at my job and it really helps not to get bored or stuck with any of its aspects.
I've had moments when none of the solutions I tried were working and it seemed that there's no way to make it work. Working on something else, even something similar for a while helps to find a solution much faster than not working at all or thinking about the problem intensively and stressfully.

I have zero doubt that working on two different games, writing and visualizing two different stories helps Ocean to increase the combined workflow, writers block and burnout.

Yes and no, it helps with the blocks, but not the burnout, and lately Ocean himself has been acknowledging that situation and talking about needing to take a real vacation every x months.
He has grown as a developer to the point of recognizing that to avoid burnout it is necessary to rest, and not be 24/7 in front of a screen, even if they are two different games/stories/jobs.

 

[AlexFXR]

I disagree about the concentrating/quality issue - in creative fields, you have one job, but multiple projects/tasks, often for separate clients. I find that different, concurrent projects help solve problems in other projects. So if I'm not feeling inspired because I can't solve something in one project, rather than punish myself staring at the screen, I move to a different project where I can be productive. While working on the other project, subconsciously I am problem solving. And maybe I come across a different workflow that triggers a solution, or is simply a better process, or is just an inspiring way to do a certain task. In Ocean's process, it's ultimately one big story with different facets, most of the actual tasks are pretty much the same. As he problem solves one thing, he learns for the other.

I don't understand what you're talking about. Tell me, how many jobs do you work and how many jobs do you take on to avoid burnout? And tell me, how do human rights organizations feel about this? As far as I know, your bosses will receive huge fines for this. I am not allowed to work multiple jobs at once. If they find out that I still have a job, they will fire me immediately.
Ocean is working simultaneously on SG and Wiab. It turns out that in order not to burn out from these games, Ocean still needs to make new games. Does this mean that Ocean will work on 4 games when he burns out? You have me confused.

 

[Penfold Mole]

Yes and no, it helps with the blocks, but not the burnout, and lately Ocean himself has been acknowledging that situation and talking about needing to take a real vacation every x months.
He has grown as a developer to the point of recognizing that to avoid burnout it is necessary to rest, and not be 24/7 in front of a screen, even if they are two different games/stories/jobs.

Obviously, you still need time off from work. No one disagrees with that.

It's just that you'd need a lot more time off if you get stuck with the thing you're working on and have nothing else to work on either, so you have no other choice but taking some time off from work completely. If you can work on something else for a while, until you are able to find a solution to the problem (without breaking the 8-hours or 5 weekdays limit or taking any vacations, mind you), the combined workflow obviously increases.

 

[BobTheDuck]

I don't understand what you're talking about. Tell me, how many jobs do you work and how many jobs do you take on to avoid burnout? And tell me, how do human rights organizations feel about this? As far as I know, your bosses will receive huge fines for this. I am not allowed to work multiple jobs at once. If they find out that I still have a job, they will fire me immediately.
Ocean is working simultaneously on SG and Wiab. It turns out that in order not to burn out from these games, Ocean still needs to make new games. Does this mean that Ocean will work on 4 games when he burns out? You have me confused.

I am self employed, and I work on contracts, project briefs. I work for some clients once a month, some for two weeks at a time. Some clients have returned for more than ten projects over a decade and a half. You shouldn't assume everyone has a fixed employer. There are so many different kinds of work, and there are many many different parts of the world with different rules.

I have been working on 5 different projects simultaneously for the last month and a half. Buying new software for one gave me a different starting point for another, and inspired me to treat it differently. This isn't confusing at all. The workload though, that is what is a challenge. I don't get exhausted by work, or thinking, I get exhausted by the frustration of not achieving things. And lack of sleep.

The difference between my situation and Ocean's is Ocean has a long term plan for the shared projects. I simply have to make my clients happy, even as they shift their deadlines around and miscommunicate. If work was simple it would be boring for me though I guess...

 

[dan_roger69]

New Update from the Dev about SG release: https://f95zone.to/threads/where-it-all-began-ch-2-full-oceanlab.19856/post-11820668 . It was availble on WIAB thread. Release might happen within 2 weeks.

 

[yossa999]

I don't understand what you're talking about. Tell me, how many jobs do you work and how many jobs do you take on to avoid burnout? And tell me, how do human rights organizations feel about this? As far as I know, your bosses will receive huge fines for this. I am not allowed to work multiple jobs at once. If they find out that I still have a job, they will fire me immediately.
Ocean is working simultaneously on SG and Wiab. It turns out that in order not to burn out from these games, Ocean still needs to make new games. Does this mean that Ocean will work on 4 games when he burns out? You have me confused.

Bro, I think you misunderstood it, it's not that he does twice as much work per day compared to working on just one project. He doesn't work simultaneously on both projects, as you said, he works alternately on both projects. A week (or day) for SG, a week (or day) for WIAB or something like that. The amount of work per day is always same. At least that's what I understood from his words.
Another thing is that it seems that burnout is not the only reason to work on two projects. Just look at the situation from the other side. He was working on WIAB and the other guy was working on SG. Both games are based on his story. The other guy left. Both games already had fans and shared the same gaming universe. What are the options? He decided to keep both.
Though I'm quite surprised that the focus has shifted from WIAB to SG, which continually upsets WIAB fans. It's easier for me. I perceive both games as parts of one big story, separated by a large period of time, so updating either game for me is an update to the big story. But those who only like one of the games are obviously disappointed and want him to shut down the other game.

 

[Matt2012021]

While i love summer's gone and for wiab it has its fans but really don't care for it that said if working on 2 games help with burnout people should just get use to it

 

[Kassandara]

While i love summer's gone and for wiab it has its fans but really don't care for it that said if working on 2 games help with burnout people should just get use to it

Do you really think people will "get used to it" when they can just complain about it instead?

 

[AlexFXR]

Some clients have returned for more than ten projects over a decade and a half.

I'm assuming you've been doing the same job for over 15 years. Since you continue to do it, you like this work and you don’t experience burnout, this is very good. Unfortunately, Ocean is not like you, since he writes about burnout, it means that it has begun for him.

 

[BobTheDuck]

I'm assuming you've been doing the same job for over 15 years. Since you continue to do it, you like this work and you don’t experience burnout, this is very good. Unfortunately, Ocean is not like you, since he writes about burnout, it means that it has begun for him.

Over 25 years now. I've had moments when I wanted to give up, and moments when my brain felt fried and battered. Avoiding burnout is not about liking what you do enough enough, because there are days when you have a horrible client, and you still have to deliver. If Ocean gets burnout it'll be from the negative parts of the job, despite all the things he loves about it. Reading everyone's incessant criticism over who long it's taking wears enthusiasm down. It's tough enough following your vision, only to find you have to re-render, because you didn't notice xyz, but then blames for not meeting an arbitrary deadline? Ocean is actually doing far better than I; my clients don't give me feedback for a week and I'm a wreck thinking they hate what I did for them. Then they come back, nope can't find anything wrong, didn't want to bother you with the details, and I can breathe. Creativity always has to fight apathy, and you don't get to graduate from that struggle. Some days are more intense than others. But the rewards and feelings of accomplishment are elevated also.

Anyway, burnout is different from exhaustion, it happens when you don't see an outcome for your effort, or you no longer value the outcome. Ocean seems to me to be pacing himself well, even if it's slower that I'd hope, because he is still very passionate about the stories he's writing.