Amazing post as usual Bob. I agree on all counts. Feels like we keep rehashing the same stuff over and over again but I can't help it that they remain relevant. I can't help it if Ocean instead of fixing the glaring issues just keeps introducing new problems with each new update. That's how "Lost" (TV show) for example died for me. You can't answer 1 question then introduce 3 new questions right after. At some point the story can't sustain itself and viewers/readers/players lose interest.
Agreed. I relentlessly highlight the negatives because I believe that has greater odds for meaningful improvement then blindly praising it. It doesn't bother me that people LOVE this game and want to defend Ocean as long as they remain objective about it.
This is just blatant reaction farming from the big ol' Katie simp that lurks around these parts. Shame on you!
Fucking agreed! It does start to seem like it doesn't it? I've been saying this shit for ages, the emotional heights this game was able to achieve consistently pre ch3.5 were amazing. It seems bland now by comparison. I still feel something here and there while playing it but it's so much more forced and soft and tame.
Question for the ages. Why is WiAB so much more sound, solid and competent in all aspects than SG? It's written by the same person. Story and dialogue by the same person as far as we know yet the quality disparity is glaring. There is only one explanation. Reworks. That's why I call this game Frankenstein's monster. It's barely more than a mishmash of scenes held together by hopes and prayers. By "turn your brain off" moments and a smidge of suspension of disbelief. With a side of retroactive changes of course. How does this help the story? How can you even claim
"the rework improved the game massively" with a straight face unless all you do is look at the pretty renders and fuck everything else?
So I promised I'd try to remember all the things I replied and lost, I probably won't though
Mostly I'm glad we're able to talk from the different viewpoints. My thought is that proper debate strengthens ideas. The big problem is that we're debating each other's ideas, and are powerless to implement the changes. We've all solved Ocean's problems here a thousand times over regards continuity, but the problems are still there, because no one in the thread has the power to enact a single good idea in the game. I guess that's where I lean in to the hope that Ocean wants the story to be popular and stand out from the crowd of 'bland mc goes to college and fucks around while not studying' games that are everywhere in the AVN world. He has to keep pushing SG to be more than just another college game. We'll see how successful he is in keeping something unique about SG and WiaB that keeps them standing out. That's a different discussion though, and this post will get too long.
The biggest issue with the 3 new questions as answers to 1 question is the continuity becomes harder. I'm okay with things being left to read between the lines in every drama - to me those are the best stories (not talking about landlady BS, but stuff liek why Summer is missing) because they stimulate imagination. The quality of the story then becomes important to me personally as I can only fill the gaps in with my imagination, and that's why we see so many theories - people love that their minds are stimulated to wonder the where/why/how. Sometimes we do need some answers though, and hopefully those revelations get dropped like the bombs they should be.
The emotional highlights are because Ocean managed (pre 3.5) to shock us with how aggressive character could be. Very few dialogues now have the fuck off mentality of earlier where characters would drop conversations halfway and storm off. Now we have Ayua threatening Nika rather than running off to Bella, because we need exposition I guess? Bella's breakdown is less impactful because she tries to complete her sentences logically rather than freak out and have a proper breakdown? Prior we had characters whose emotions were overwhelming, affecting their behaviour, now everyone reasons things out, Nika's panic attacks even seem more reasoned out. The solution is Ocean trusting that he doesn't need to outline everything with words, that we don't need an internal monolgue narrating everything just to make sure. It's like the images hidden in the background - you have to trust players notice what's really going on.
As to why WiaB is better - because it was reworked from the ground up (ignoring the latest info, we'll see how that fits or derails soon enough) while SG was retconned while moving forward. Ocean had to join before to after with SG, whil WiaB, he could bring in characters where they felt natural, cut what felt cringe without leaving holes etc. Also, as a narrative, we have far more questions in WiaB about the events of the world. In WiaB, we wonder about Emilio, because he's part of Leia's company, in WiaB, we'd just a source of plot points, we don't wonder about why he's there - he's just a convenient agent to deliver info to the player. WiaB doesn't have extras in the same way that SG does. As SG goes further, I'm sure Ocean will integrate the stories more - but someone like Emilio's story is told in WiaB, it's unnecessary to giv details in SG, which if SG is played standalone seems an oversight. I'm not pretending that the reworks haven't damaged as much as they've helped in SG, but the rework in WiaB wasn't problematic in the same way, because Ocean was starting from A and didn't have to arrive at render C, while in SG, he basically had to draw between the lines. By nature, he overstepped the bounds, and fleshed things out and created more continuity issues, which required more reworking. Some things should have just been re-rendered with the new assets rather than expanded, but the expansions where to correct other conituity problems, then when overzealous....
BUt he's leaving that alone. Maybe Nami will make more sense in S2 with Nika talking more about Nami and his past with Amber. I think that was always on the cards.
A SG chapter with lewd scenes ? Unacceptable! In all seriousness though, I feel that for the 5 LI that are explored in S1 we will have a natural progression of the intimacy between them and the MC, beyond just kisses. Nami and Bella are the one who are far ahead in this department, and is only fair that others get a little love. That said, I feel is to early to Zara, despite I wanting it, she still is conflicted about her feelings for Nika, feel that lewds with her are gonna take a little while.
I agree with everything that was said. But sadly I don't think that Ocean will address the many faults of S1, nor should he. The story needs to move forward and now that the reworks are done, I don't think that there is this much of good will left. It is a patched thing, where you can see where was cut and stitched together and some of this are done better than the others, is far from perfect but, it is what it is. About clarity... we got clarity in WiaB and well. For everyone who played it since Ch1 knows that SG was written with a idea in mind, and the reworks did little to deter this ideia, ambiguity is the only path left with the exception of others grands rewrites.
The natural intimacy is important. As much as I understand that some people like
RNasc4444 believe Nami was ruined by the rework, both her and Amber have far more natural progressions. Timing is important - now that Nami's feelings are out in the open, sexy bathroom time and spa time will have a greater impact. And Ocean has better lewd skills now than when he did that assjob.
There's still holes in Nami's (in particular) path, but those can be filled in with further interaction. All it takes is for Ocean to keep moving forward and not second guessing it from this point. I think a director's cut of the first season once the game is done might be a thing, or Ocean will update the script when it's simple to do so. Right now the majority of th eproblems are things we remember haven't been revealed yet. There can be a new reveal of those things in S2 that can fill the gaps.
As far as the ambiguity, As AVN's in general lean more heavily on steam, my guess is that at some points a lot of the devs will start removing ambiguity... and we'll just have to keep our fingers crossed that steam doesn't care provided it's appropriately labelled.
The devilish "curse" that Ocean has been trying to use on us to put us under his spell is the art of audio-visual storytelling that I have called "cinematic" a couple of times already. He has been trying to use the full arsenal of the "tricks", the language that film directors have mastered through the history of film making to influence the viewers on subconscious level. Obviously, he is unable to use fully animated scenes 100% of time, that would make this an actual 3D CG movie, but he has been using the same audio-visual language on static imagery in this VN that film directors are using in the movies.
I can see through at least some of the "tricks" of the art he's been using to enhance the experience, amplifying all these feelings, empathy for the characters and immersion into some of the scenes. And I find it fascinating how effective it is even on static imagery of a VN.
At this time I don't know any other devs been using tools of audio-visual storytelling at this level and in as many scenes of their VN's as Ocean has. I know a few who have been trying and succeeding doing the same, but not at this level. And possibly being inspired by Oceans work, too.
You surely shouldn't try to compare him with guys like Stanley Kubrick or Steven Spielberg, but at least among the indie VN devs on F95, he has been the most skilled and dedicated one so far
that I know of.
Of course, Oceans skills at 3D character modeling and writing
(at least in English) and possibly some other skills individually may not be as great as the same skills of a few other devs, but he clearly beats them with his "film director" skills. Which makes me and obviously a bunch of other people
(yes, we're all simps, Oceans dickriders and cocksuckers for getting "tricked" by him ) to dismiss his flawed models, continuity errors, plot holes and imperfect writing skills for the "whole picture", for the piece of audio-visual art he has single-handedly managed to create.
This is the thing. Ocean simply takes time to render multiple facial expressions for a conversation, different angles to the same scene. A lot of devs just use the same render for 10 lines, while Ocean has renders with eyes dilating, closeups of lips etc. It's not just that we know characters speak, we're shown how they feel about what they're saying, in all the subtleties. He also populates the background with dramas that have nothing to do with the main game (or yet? maybe) so there's always more depth to a scene, trying to find out if we should be paying attention to character X whose name we don't know. Most of it is Ocean playing with our lack of knowledge - he teases all the reveals, all the characters know more than us, so Ocean can keep with the subtle reveals.
The other thing is that Ocean knows that no render should be a filler. Every render has something to add. By delaying lewds, it's more apparent - Ocean is proud of how he manages to stage his renders. Some devs just walk their characters from A to B just for exposition and then focus on animating the lewds. Ocean actually likes his backdrops and the details of the clothes, the directions of the light, the focus, all of it. It's also part of his problem, because he obsesses over details a fair portion of posters consider irrelevant (but that still make up the reason they want lewds - can't have sexy renders without attention to detail).
I was never one to enjoy not knowing something but for now I guess it will have to be that way.
I´ll enjoy the game allright, I´m just sad there aren´t any lewds in Ch1. You can´t design girls like these and not give us something.
I can´t wait to understand why Zara and Nia can go fuck themselves.
mysteries are about to unfold
Better get used not knowing the things in the Oceanverse - it's a signature Ocean move. He doesn't like giving away answers, and it's spilled into the thread.
About lewds, well, Season 1 is its own thing. Ocean warned the whole time that it'd be a long time before the lewds appeared, even before the rework, the warning was there. It's still on the first page of the thread even if the blue ball police are no longer in the game. Only reason the blue ball police no longer exist is because in the normal world you don't warn people that there's no sex. I go to work, there's no blue ball police warning me I won't find sex, I go to the accountant, no BBP there, catch a train, etc. It's mostly normal to put up the 18+ sign to warn about sex... so yeah. I fully expect Ocean will have an 18+ render page ready for season 2 ch1.
Nia literally does, you'll find out, maybe season 2.
