I don't think you can call two guys that pull up on Bella and harass her for sex friends...just because they know each other and race together doesn't imply friendship.
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- Oct 17, 2019
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Yeah they are bad guys but without the bad guys having a chance of winning
MC will feel untouchable so choices / tension curve will have no impact because you cant make wrong choices ( forced to deal with choice or reload a old save)
So it will not feel threatening if they appear again or if there is a (competition)
So with bad endings,drama ,dealing with dark thems ,trouble no good story or moments of made wrong choices... emotional damage and so on....
The reason why red dead 2 or cyberpunk edgerunner, game of thrones and so on..... are so good/shooking / emotional/ unexpected is because this is not the case....
The cheracters around MC and MC are not some godlike untouchable cheracters by plot ...
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Just because you make all the "right decisions" doesn't mean everything will work out. For all we know it will lead to Thelma and Louise or a Bonny and Clyde ending.
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Don't beat around the bush, just say it straight - you want NTR in Summer's Gone
Let's say these two dickheads, if there is a way they can win, then remember what bet one of them wanted to make?
Right, it's Bella's ass. So, what will your bad ending look like? They take Bella with them, put her behind the car, and collect the lost bet?
Sorry, bud, according to Ocean, that's not going to happen. There is no and will not be NTR in SG, this was stated from the very beginning and as far as I know, Ocean has never changed his mind on this, at least he always answered no to suggestions to add NTR in SG.
Same with the dark themes. It was in SG at the start, the dark path for the MC was planned, but Ocean removed it when he started reworking and his stance on the game now is that it's about healing, hope and love. He spent a lot of time softening MC's character and fixing the story to fit MC's changed personality and endured tons of shit thrown at him for it. So far, nothing shows he's changed his mind.
It's up to you of course, but I think you have unrealistic expectations for this game, and that's a surefire way to be disappointed.
Although I learn something new about this game every day. Yesterday I learned that the game is fluid. Before that I was told that this game is a loop. So, who knows, maybe tomorrow it will become a ntr-fest.
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No shot you just learned that yesterday! The game has been getting retroactively changed since before the reworks even started... How in the fuck did you miss that?
I mean I can relate to taking a long time to accept that nothing in Ocean's stories is ever set in stone but I did at least notice it. Can you imagine a best selling author publishing a novel then a couple of months after the publishing a new edition comes out with changes to the entire story. Then 3 months later another one. By the first year anniversary, and 5 editions later, characters have popped out of nowhere and we're supposed to pretend they were there all along. Names get changed. Personalities altered. Physical features replaced. And the story is so far removed from the original edition it's barely recognizable anymore.
Sounds insane when you think of it as a book or a show/movie right? Because this isn't how good stories are told. When you see a new chapter from a manga coming out, how often does it make sweeping changes to the previously established chapters?
This being a VN with continuous development, with chapters and seasons doesn't excuse the shitty storytelling. It just makes me think that Ocean may not only be clueless about where all of this is heading but also not care enough about his stories to fight for their integrity.
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I respect his choice but there will never be a good story this way and we all know ocean is a perfectionist .....Don't beat around the bush, just say it straight - you want NTR in Summer's Gone
Let's say these two dickheads, if there is a way they can win, then remember what bet one of them wanted to make?
Right, it's Bella's ass. So, what will your bad ending look like? They take Bella with them, put her behind the car, and collect the lost bet?
Sorry, bud, according to Ocean, that's not going to happen. There is no and will not be NTR in SG, this was stated from the very beginning and as far as I know, Ocean has never changed his mind on this, at least he always answered no to suggestions to add NTR in SG.
Same with the dark themes. It was in SG at the start, the dark path for the MC was planned, but Ocean removed it when he started reworking and his stance on the game now is that it's about healing, hope and love. He spent a lot of time softening MC's character and fixing the story to fit MC's changed personality and endured tons of shit thrown at him for it. So far, nothing shows he's changed his mind.
It's up to you of course, but I think you have unrealistic expectations for this game, and that's a surefire way to be disappointed.
Although I learn something new about this game every day. Yesterday I learned that the game is fluid. Before that I was told that this game is a loop. So, who knows, maybe tomorrow it will become a ntr-fest.
I dont know a single big VN that was able to create a good story with this much limitations
The only believable drama (bad ending ) that you could maybe creat is woman catfight which one gets mc dick ... but thats not the perfectionistic story I would espect from ocean ....
I will wait and see what ocean will come up with or if he will just do the same like the big other VN that go the same direction
At least WIAB has potential hope we get this cyberpunk edgerunner vibe / feel with WIAB at least ...because I need a big VN that actually is upredictable a d gets the story / drama/ dark thems / emotions / jeliousy/ betrayle .... and so on right you know the things you nedd to creat a good story ...
(And btw I hate 99% of ntr games ... the predeictable thing goes in both directions most ntr games have terrible story aswell and are very pretictable story wise so NO I dont want turn SG into full NTR gane neather WIAB....)
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Phew... Do you have a sense of deja vu that we've discussed all this once or twice or seven times here in this thread? I mean, us as people who have been in this thread for quite a while.
1. Fluid relationships. Really? Is this even a topic in 2024? Do I really need to tell you about certain crowdfunding platforms, their attitude towards certain adult themes, the sudden crusade against certain types of content, all that stuff?
If you still want to discuss family relationships in adult games, then first please give me a link to WiAB's Patreon.
), and then just come here and get the officially published version on Steam. Then you would have a finished piece of Summer's Gone without five years of suffering and pain
Now if he starts seriously changing the first season released on Steam, that would be really strange. Bugfixes and micro changes don't count, of course.
But then again, we're talking about an indie developer releasing an unfinished game in parts to early access for his supporters. Public release of the first season only happened at 10 May, 2024 on Steam.
By the way, I was supporting a couple of fantasy authors, and they use the same workflow as the AVN authors on patreon. So they too had rewrites and changes to previously written chapters, although not very often. But this happened until the next book was finished and posted to online stores. So I don't see much difference with AVN authors here.
So far, he is the only one who delivers, despite all his cluelessness.
Of course, I am ready to share your grief, but point by point.
1. Fluid relationships. Really? Is this even a topic in 2024? Do I really need to tell you about certain crowdfunding platforms, their attitude towards certain adult themes, the sudden crusade against certain types of content, all that stuff?
If you still want to discuss family relationships in adult games, then first please give me a link to WiAB's Patreon.
2. Fluid content. So after five years you still haven't realized that this isn't a finished book in a gift cover but a work in progress, alpha version, early access, draft script, yada yada... unfinished work that can be changed? The fact that most authors prefer not to change anything while they are working on their scripts or visuals, even if they are not happy with the result, does not mean that this is a rule and that everyone should follow it. Seriously, you should have hung out in some other threads for those five years (I can suggest some good places
), and then just come here and get the officially published version on Steam. Then you would have a finished piece of Summer's Gone without five years of suffering and pain Now if he starts seriously changing the first season released on Steam, that would be really strange. Bugfixes and micro changes don't count, of course.
True, although if a show doesn't live up to the creators' expectations, they simply close it in the middle of the season and start something different. Just like some of the AVN developers.
But then again, we're talking about an indie developer releasing an unfinished game in parts to early access for his supporters. Public release of the first season only happened at 10 May, 2024 on Steam.
By the way, I was supporting a couple of fantasy authors, and they use the same workflow as the AVN authors on patreon. So they too had rewrites and changes to previously written chapters, although not very often. But this happened until the next book was finished and posted to online stores. So I don't see much difference with AVN authors here.
Sure, if it was really shitty, but this is the best storytelling you'll find in AVNs. Problems?
He clueless about everything, it was established five years ago. No need to repeat it, just do it better than him.It just makes me think that Ocean may not only be clueless about where all of this is heading but also not care enough about his stories to fight for their integrity.
So far, he is the only one who delivers, despite all his cluelessness.
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No offense bro, but I really get the impression from your post that every possible conflict you can imagine revolves around the MC's dick.
But even now, Summer's Gone is full of topics that have the potential for future conflicts, dramas, power plays, and all the shit the author can come up with.
Rivalry between athlets. Poor vs Rich. Bullying. Rivalry between The Families. The characters' coming to independent adult life and struggle with hardships and problems. It's not like the conflict with Holgerson is resolved already.
Heck, even the damn healing is still a topic. Maybe MC can fail along the way and return to his old crazy self. Or let Vic down. Isn't this a bad ending?
Not all conflicts and dramas have to be about jealousy, cheating, and hunt for a fresh pussy.
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Ok maybe I explain this wrong not the best in englishNo offense bro, but I really get the impression from your post that every possible conflict you can imagine revolves around the MC's dick.
But even now, Summer's Gone is full of topics that have the potential for future conflicts, dramas, power plays, and all the shit the author can come up with.
Rivalry between athlets. Poor vs Rich. Bullying. Rivalry between The Families. The characters' coming to independent adult life and struggle with hardships and problems. It's not like the conflict with Holgerson is resolved already.
Heck, even the damn healing is still a topic. Maybe MC can fail along the way and return to his old crazy self. Or let Vic down. Isn't this a bad ending?
Not all conflicts and dramas have to be about jealousy, cheating, and hunt for a fresh pussy.
But as soon as you cater to a certain audiance we are not only talking about the bad name you shall not name
you have so many story limitations ... someone has a bf?? Not possible ... another bf kiss his gf ( not mc ) not possible .... landlord
has a husband?well you know the drill....As soon as you cater to them you have 1000 of limitations and you will never make a good story around this ...
Its like saying to the game of thrones author well ... we need to remove this scene and that scene ... and well this is not cozy enough for the save space erotic audiance ... ohh this guy?? He has bigger dick than mc remove him.... that guy betrays mc ??? Well remove him... ohh that wife cheated on mc?? Well we just rewrite that part ... ohh here a cheracter dies .. well lets make her immortal how about that.....
Its litterly impossible to creat a good story like this
And all the things you named withrivalary ,bullying and so on ..... they dont matter if you know what will happen before the conflict even started
you already know mc cant lose so if there is any tension at all... you already know who comes out as winner?? Yeah mc... and it willcreat fake drama/ competition over and over again a d well this was a close win .... wow anoter win .... wow what aunespected win..... well mc won again??? Did not espect that one ...... you get the point.... rivals are pretty boring if they cant compete with mc...
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No offense bro, but I really get the impression from your post that every possible conflict you can imagine revolves around the MC's dick.
But even now, Summer's Gone is full of topics that have the potential for future conflicts, dramas, power plays, and all the shit the author can come up with.
Rivalry between athlets. Poor vs Rich. Bullying. Rivalry between The Families. The characters' coming to independent adult life and struggle with hardships and problems. It's not like the conflict with Holgerson is resolved already.
Heck, even the damn healing is still a topic. Maybe MC can fail along the way and return to his old crazy self. Or let Vic down. Isn't this a bad ending?
Not all conflicts and dramas have to be about jealousy, cheating, and hunt for a fresh pussy.
Now I am in a weird place, because I agree with you, conflict and tension is at the heart of every good story and most AVNs has a serious lack of both and is just sex scenes held together by the excuse of a plot. Part of it is that AVNs appeal to the male fantasy, parts is that most devs does not has prior written experience so they make big mistakes, it does not matter, it is a weakness of the media and I also would like to have less of it and more engaging stories. That said. I don't think that the only form to add this elements is by have male competitors for the LIs - I like the ideia - but there are AVNs that don't have those but are engaging stories as well, because their characters are well written, their plot is good and consistent , the ideia of a antagonist that can - not will, but can- steal your LI or that you can somehow fail the game is one that I like. I just don't think it is the only one.Again I like the game
hope prople dont understand it wrong but alot/ almost all big VN I tried to play try to Make a save space in erotic VN like it dosent matter which options you choose there will always be another hot female woman waiting for MC 8 inch throbbing cock
The problem from a storytelling perspective is the unexpected stuff and (losing) the reason why game of thrones was so exiting for example red weeding was fucked up but I was never expecting it to happen ,same with competition,deaths....
You alwayd sit infront of tv and tremble from exitment not knowing what will happrn and VN just dont catch this felling
Becauae they center too much around MC and save space for the erotic player that dont want to (lose) the problem with this approch is that we will never see a VN with a good story this way ....
thats why I think all this things are important .....
As far as SG goes, I fully expect that we will experience consequences for the choices we made, we had some of it and several hints already, how deep is goes and how hard it will hit, only time can tell. But I don't think that Ocean has written a story where you will get away with bad choices.
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Ocean is limited by Patreon. His other game, WIAB, has been nuked out of patreon. He had to make adjustment in order to not lose SG patreon, as well as steam release.Ok maybe I explain this wrong not the best in english
But as soon as you cater to a certain audiance we are not only talking about the bad name you shall not name
you have so many story limitations ... someone has a bf?? Not possible ... another bf kiss his gf ( not mc ) not possible .... landlord
As soon as you cater to them you have 1000 of limitations and you will never make a good story around this ...
Its like saying to the game of thrones author well ... we need to remove this scene and that scene ... and well this is not cozy enough for the save space erotic audiance ... ohh this guy?? He has bigger dick than mc remove him.... that guy betrays mc ??? Well remove him... ohh that wife cheated on mc?? Well we just rewrite that part ... ohh here a cheracter dies .. well lets make her immortal how about that.....
Its litterly impossible to creat a good story like this
And all the things you named withrivalary ,bullying and so on ..... they dont matter if you know what will happen before the conflict even started
His story will unroll the way he wants, not because he caters to his audience. He said, multiple time, that the game is not a date sim. And yet, he confirmed that there's different type of couple. Even throuple with two males.
The aspect of the game is healing, whether it's mentally or physically. The drama will unfold and Ocean already set the base for it.
If your issue is that “the MC will win at the end”… well yeah, that's the point of most stories. The MC wins. But there's a difference between being untouchable, and losing battles, but winning at the end.
When Bella and MC plotted to fuck with the Holderson family, it ended in major failure. They didn't get anything out of it; they broke a woman who didn't do anything to them. Mila got fucked in the process because she was accused of what MC and Bella did when they stole money and the Heirloom. Adding insult to injury, their attempt at manipulating Mario's girlfriend ended up as a flop
as well, when MC noticed that she was way smarter that Bella thought she was.
You can't say that's a win now, can you?
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Yes, that's right, and already now, the more the MC behaves like an asshole, the more people turn away from him. I can easily imagine a bad ending where he ends up alone and even Nami turns her back on him.
I'm sure a lot can be done with the basketball storyline, he can become the type of leader he talked about to Zara on the tennis court or get star fever, push everyone away from him and end up being kicked off the team (sweet One Tree Hill...).
In short, I don't see any reason why MC couldn't fuck up everything and crawl back into his mental shell he came out of in the beginning of the game. I don't think the winning ending is imminent.
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Exactly. For example, if you don't train, you'll lose the tennis game and Zara will be angry at you, furthermore, Aziz won't tell you that you're on the list of potential for the first team.
Still on this idea of MC always wining, not all stories needs to be ASOIAF, where you are unsure of who will win. This is are fantastic stories but I don't think anyone would call LotR of WoT bad stories for following the typical fantasy tropes, sometimes is not aboutAnd all the things you named withrivalary ,bullying and so on ..... they dont matter if you know what will happen before the conflict even started
the uncertainty of who will come up on top but the journey and the sacrifices that the character has to made for achieve the win. Be Sam carrying a almost dead Frodo to the top of the mountain or Rand losing his humanity to defeat Shaitan, sometimes your MC can win but the cost of wining is much higher than he ever thought, as I hope it will be the case in WiaB. There is not only one way to tell the a story, and while I share of your frustrations with AVNs in general, I don't think we should force a square in a circle hole. Different media will tell different stories and each will have weakness and strengths, and while I fully agree with your premisses that as a media AVNs has a lack of conflicts and tension and rely too much in male fantasy and would benefit with more bold stories instead of cater to the most sensitive of audiences. Luckily I don't think we have to worry about it with SG, Ocean does not seems much concern with it.
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No, it's not Ocean. If a girl is not LI, then nothing prevents her from dating other people. Noji is not LI, so she can perfectly well date Nick and kiss him in public (I'm not sure about kissing, too lazy to check, but there was definitely hugging, right?).Ok maybe I explain this wrong not the best in english
But as soon as you cater to a certain audiance we are not only talking about the bad name you shall not name
you have so many story limitations ... someone has a bf?? Not possible ... another bf kiss his gf ( not mc ) not possible .... landlord
As soon as you cater to them you have 1000 of limitations and you will never make a good story around this ...
Actually, as I recall, Ocean went even further, by his definition, if the MC explicitly rejects a certain girl and makes it clear to the game that he is not interested in her, she loses her LI status and can start dating others. So in my opinion, if you keep pushing Nami towards Jeff (for example, asking Jeff at the bar to keep an eye on Nami), I do not rule out that they can end up a couple.
I don't see many limitations here, unless you're into cucking, cheating and such things.
SG has more male characters than many popular games so far. The death of one of the lead characters is a controversial topic, I'm not sure it makes the story better. Many good stories do well without such extremes. Either way, Missy over Megan anytime!
How do you know? Why do you think MC can't lose, who told you that? I'm not even sure he'll get his healing in every ending.And all the things you named withrivalary ,bullying and so on ..... they dont matter if you know what will happen before the conflict even started
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My experince with VN the only game that comes to my mind that is big and not full ntr game
But has a nice balance between drama, other cheracters being better/more attractive ,winning ,losing,emotions,betreyle,friendship.....
Like dfferent path depending on your choice is our red string .... its 1 game .... that trys to be more mature... different..
Thats why I have such high hope for WIAB and sad of patreon
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The thing is, we've barely been introduced to the characters, we've had a few teenage dramas (the handcuffs, the Holgerson plot) but we really have no idea how Melanie fits in. Darkness comes from someone who wants to stab Victoria's eyes out, who tried to drown her. Vic already has to deal with the idea of being a cripple, but she also has to wonder about Melanie, there is definite foreshadowing there. The sadness of Nia is heartbreaking. Nami's past is dark, Nika has the violent incident to come to light still. Jeff recognises Nika's sad eyes because he's had something bad happen too. Mila's been abused to the point she flinches. Sasha is scarred and takes medication for panic attacks herself. Bella's totally a stable person in all this, who loves being wild and chaotic. Melanie's sister is unhinged and probably happy to ignore the book.My experince with VN the only game that comes to my mind that is big and not full ntr game
But has a nice balance between drama, other cheracters being better/more attractive ,winning ,losing,emotions,betreyle,friendship.....
Like dfferent path depending on your choice is our red string .... its 1 game .... that trys to be more mature... different..
Thats why I have such high hope for WIAB and sad of patreon
There's plenty of opportunity for drama and failure. But keep aware that even in the darkest stories it's rare to have something end on a complete downer like Empire Strikes Back, or the Unholy Consult. Few people can accept a true failure for the main character. Pure existentialism doesn't sell well. Just as you wish for the victory to be meaningful in contrast with the risk of defeat, the risk of defeat is only meaningful as an obstruction to success. Where there is no success, being grim and doomy is just as terrible writing.
But even then, this is just one kind of story. There are plenty of ways to establish drama and weighty consequence without risk of failure. Oedipus Rex is a great example of that. The inward journey of self discovery, facing ourselves in the mirror is also perilous, because we risk ourselves against the security of apathy. This is primarily the story that Nika faces. Will be deal honestly enough to become a better person, face his flaws that led to Summer being gone? Or will he repeat the problems, or never leave that safe nest of apathy?
Nika acting as a manwhore could turn off some of the LI's. They might not want much to do with him, and might be content not having a romance. People can reject someone and stay single - the love interests don't need to have partners, they could just gravitate to flings and experiment. Nika might fail to establish a sustainable romance, and they rip his heart out callously.
There's so much potential for drama, all that is required is to avoid the cliche's