Ren'Py Summertime Saga [v21.0.0 wip.4468] [Kompas Productions]

[TheDevian]

Both of your points would be very valid if DC did all the art and then didn't give it to his team until everything is finished but that is not how it is done. Which is why I said I don't think the art is the real bottleneck. Look at it this way. If he was the bottleneck when he passes along the last piece of art that should be the only thing left to really implement (not including routine polish and testing) into the game and I can't imagine that would take 3-4 weeks.

Except that if you look, the rest of the stuff was being done as they got the art, the posing is 85% finished, and 100% started, while the coding is 44% finished, and about 55-60% started, and he is already working on the art for 18. Each thing is somewhat dependent on the last. If he did have another artist, he could get the art done sooner and to the rest of the team sooner, but the cost is too high. Again, it is really hard to code a game when you don't have the art assets to work with. Depends on the engine of course, but try it some time, I know I am having quite the time at it.

 

[Francis8rock]

Except that if you look, the rest of the stuff was being done as they got the art, the posing is 85% finished, and 100% started, while the coding is 44% finished, and about 55-60% started, and he is already working on the art for 18. Each thing is somewhat dependent on the last. If he did have another artist, he could get the art done sooner and to the rest of the team sooner, but the cost is too high. Again, it is really hard to code a game when you don't have the art assets to work with. Depends on the engine of course, but try it some time, I know I am having quite the time at it.

Why would it help to get art sooner? They can't keep up with DC anyway. As I said before if they were waiting on the art it would not take a month to release the beta after he finishes the last piece of art. You are here a lot. Notice how often Devs say I am just finishing the last of the art and then they release the beta a few days later. That is because they were actually waiting on the art and once the art was finished they only had to do some minor things, which is why it gets released two days later.

When it is a month between the last piece of art and the beta being released that is not from waiting for the art.

 

[TheDevian]

Why would it help to get art sooner? They can't keep up with DC anyway. As I said before if they were waiting on the art it would not take a month to release the beta after he finishes the last piece of art. You are here a lot. Notice how often Devs say I am just finishing the last of the art and then they release the beta a few days later. That is because they were actually waiting on the art and once the art was finished they only had to do some minor things, which is why it gets released two days later.

When it is a month between the last piece of art and the beta being released that is not from waiting for the art.

I have explained this several times, you cannot do the posing without the art, you cannot do the coding until the posing is done. It is a step by step process.
You cannot ???? until you collect the underpants, and you cannot profit until you ????. Just ask the gnomes, they have a chart and everything.

 

[RedPillBlues]

Guys you need to understand once the art is done, coding and posing will speed up exponentially. I understand that you really want the update, so do I, but I would prefer not to rush Darkcookie since he has yet to put out a disappointing update.

 

[Francis8rock]

I have explained this several times, you cannot do the posing without the art, you cannot do the coding until the posing is done. It is a step by step process.
You cannot ???? until you collect the underpants, and you cannot profit until you ????. Just ask the gnomes, they have a chart and everything.
View attachment 171111

Yes but as I said you keep talking like they get all the art at one time and then they have to go pose and code everything. That is not how it is done. I am not sure how I could make this any clearer. If the art was the bottleneck that would mean every time DC finishes a piece of art he would hand it over, have it posed, coded, animated etc and then everyone would be waiting for DC to finish the next piece of art and then repeat the process. Then when DC finishes the last piece of art, they would just have to pose, code and animate that last piece as everything else would have been done. Do you think that last piece takes a month?

I don't think I have ever complained about how long his releases take because I don't really care. All I was saying is the art is not the bottleneck. If you are working on the art for the next update a month before the beta of the current update is released everyone was not sitting around waiting for the art.

 

[j4yj4m]

If you are working on the art for the next update a month before the beta of the current update is released everyone was not sitting around waiting for the art.

You are thinking way too short term. Nobody is talking about one single update but about the overall speed. You could hire 5 coders now and release the update 1 second after the art is done and you'd still not get more content over the timeframe of let's say one year. You could hire 10 coders after that and nothing would change unless you hire another artist. That's why everybody is saying that art is the bottleneck, which can't be solved. Most people - except you and some others - simply don't care about those 2 or 3 more weeks but about the overall pace of the game and that is simply constant as long as it's only DC who is drawing. You can't release updates without the art.

Your definition of bottleneck is just different, that's the problem.

 

[TheDevian]

Yes but as I said you keep talking like they get all the art at one time and then they have to go pose and code everything. That is not how it is done. I am not sure how I could make this any clearer. If the art was the bottleneck that would mean every time DC finishes a piece of art he would hand it over, have it posed, coded, animated etc and then everyone would be waiting for DC to finish the next piece of art and then repeat the process. Then when DC finishes the last piece of art, they would just have to pose, code and animate that last piece as everything else would have been done. Do you think that last piece takes a month?

I don't think I have ever complained about how long his releases take because I don't really care. All I was saying is the art is not the bottleneck. If you are working on the art for the next update a month before the beta of the current update is released everyone was not sitting around waiting for the art.

You made that point before, you were wrong about what we are implying then, and you are still wrong, you are putting words on our mouths. We all agree, that the art gets sent to the posers as soon as it is ready, but it takes time, they can't get the art, and be done with it instantly. You also can't get one piece, and pose it by itself, it needs to interact with others. You can't start until you have enough pieces to actually work on it.
They WERE waiting on the art, and NOW they are working on their parts, that is why they are filling quickly now, but were hung up for so long. All of these steps take time. Watch the progress bars, what you are saying should happen, is exactly what is happening, but each step takes time. That is why the Art fills first, the posing fills next, and the coding is last.

It amazes me that people these days seem to think they know more than people who have actually worked on a project. Everyone is an expert, even when they haven't worked in the field.

 

[Francis8rock]

You are thinking way too short term. Nobody is talking about one single update but about the overall speed. You could hire 5 coders now and release the update 1 second after the art is done and you'd still not get more content over the timeframe of let's say one year. You could hire 10 coders after that and nothing would change unless you hire another artist. That's why everybody is saying that art is the bottleneck, which can't be solved. Most people - except you and some others - simply don't care about those 2 or 3 more weeks but about the overall pace of the game and that is simply constant as long as it's only DC who is drawing. You can't release updates without the art.

Your definition of bottleneck is just different, that's the problem.

I explained what my definition was. You are the one who started talking about content over a fixed amount of time. Don't start talking about something different and then say I have different definitions of something. I said that if you added an artist right now it would not matter at all. DC is on to the next version well before the people he has currently can finish anything else. So as it stands right now. The art is not the bottleneck. That is what I was saying. Also just for what it is worth if you gave DC 5 coders and animators right now the updates would in fact come out earlier as the 3-4 week space between him finishing the art and the beta coming out would be substantially less. Every update would be released earlier. Would it change the amount of content released over a set amount of time, no. But that is never what I was saying in the first place.

 

[j4yj4m]

I explained what my definition was. You are the one who started talking about content over a fixed amount of time. Don't start talking about something different and then say I have different definitions of something. I said that if you added an artist right now it would not matter at all. DC is on to the next version well before the people he has currently can finish anything else. So as it stands right now. The art is not the bottleneck. That is what I was saying. Also just for what it is worth if you gave DC 5 coders and animators right now the updates would in fact come out earlier as the 3-4 week space between him finishing the art and the beta coming out would be substantially less. Every update would be released earlier. Would it change the amount of content released over a set amount of time, no. But that is never what I was saying in the first place.

No, you are mixing correlations. It's a fact that DC does NOT hire more coders and posers BECAUSE it wouldn't improve the overall development speed. What you are damanding is essentially a waste of money.

 

[RedPillBlues]

As far as art goes I don't think I could handle anyone else working with him unless it was just a BG artist. Anything else I think would ruin the feel of the game, and even a BG artist might be pushing it.

 

[Francis8rock]

You made that point before, you were wrong about what we are implying then, and you are still wrong, you are putting words on our mouths. We all agree, that the art gets sent to the posers as soon as it is ready, but it takes time, they can't get the art, and be done with it instantly. You also can't get one piece, and pose it by itself, it needs to interact with others. You can't start until you have enough pieces to actually work on it.
They WERE waiting on the art, and NOW they are working on their parts, that is why they are filling quickly now, but were hung up for so long. All of these steps take time. Watch the progress bars, what you are saying should happen, is exactly what is happening, but each step takes time. That is why the Art fills first, the posing fills next, and the coding is last.

It amazes me that people these days seem to think they know more than people who have actually worked on a project. Everyone is an expert, even when they haven't worked in the field.

When did I said it would be done instantly? The way you are talking is like no work can be done until the last piece of art is finished. I have looked at the progress bar. Notice how posing is always close to the art in completion? because he does the art, they pose it wait for the new art and pose that. The coding is always way behind. As I said in my first post to you. There are tons of other devs who release there game a few days after finishing the art and many don't have a team. So acting as if 1 month between art and release is a routine time frame for a release is absurd.

I also told you I have not done this type of development before but I have been involved in web development and software development. I do know that there are other developers including ones making top notch game with animation who do not have such a gap between finishing the last of the art and first release. So how are they able to do it?

 

[Francis8rock]

No, you are mixing correlations. It's a fact that DC does NOT hire more coders and posers BECAUSE it wouldn't improve the overall development speed. What you are damanding is essentially a waste of money.

Saying I am demanding anything is quite funny considering I never demanded anything and I already said I don't care how long he takes to release updates. Additional coders would increase the speed in which the games are released after the art is completed. Which is what I was talking about . I never spoke about overall speed

 

[j4yj4m]

Saying I am demanding anything is quite funny considering I never demanded anything and I already said I don't care how long he takes to release updates. Additional coders would increase the speed in which the games are released after the art is completed. Which is what I was talking about . I never spoke about overall speed

But then it's not a bottleneck. At least not a bottleneck anybody would really care about. Now we get 4 updates per year, with more coders we'd get 4 updates per year but DC has to pay more money. You completely missed the discussion that was going on before you started posting, because that was about the amount of content per update. You even quoted me on that (post

You must be registered to see the links

) and then changed goal posts. That's not how it works.

Edit: And with that's it's probably indeed a good idea to stop. The overall development speed won't increase unless we get another artists which is the point I made before we started talking.

 

[E-Dog]

Ok everyone. Please just step away for a few mins....smoke'em if u got'em. Reset tension levels. Update will be late. Argueing about specifics on how its updated and the work put into it are irrelevant since it wont change anything.
I enjoued this thread since its typically the nicest and funnest thread on f95. However, lately its been turning into the milfy city thread around update time or whenever anyone voices an opinion about anything there.
We're all here to pretend to get laid. Enjoy for what it is.

 

[Laziness]

Ok everyone. Please just step away for a few mins....smoke'em if u got'em. Reset tension levels. Update will be late. Argueing about specifics on how its updated and the work put into it are irrelevant since it wont change anything.
I enjoued this thread since its typically the nicest and funnest thread on f95. However, lately its been turning into the milfy city thread around update time or whenever anyone voices an opinion about anything there.
We're all here to pretend to get laid. Enjoy for what it is.

Not me. I'm here to get someone else laid.
... who happens to share my name.

 

[TheDevian]

As far as art goes I don't think I could handle anyone else working with him unless it was just a BG artist. Anything else I think would ruin the feel of the game, and even a BG artist might be pushing it.

It depend on the artist, I know plenty of artists who can match other people's style, the problem is that people that good don't come cheep.

When did I said it would be done instantly? The way you are talking is like no work can be done until the last piece of art is finished. I have looked at the progress bar. Notice how posing is always close to the art in completion? because he does the art, they pose it wait for the new art and pose that. The coding is always way behind. As I said in my first post to you. There are tons of other devs who release there game a few days after finishing the art and many don't have a team. So acting as if 1 month between art and release is a routine time frame for a release is absurd.

I also told you I have not done this type of development before but I have been involved in web development and software development. I do know that there are other developers including ones making top notch game with animation who do not have such a gap between finishing the last of the art and first release. So how are they able to do it?

Dude, I have already addressed that point, you are once again, telling me that I am saying something that I am not saying. Just because you give the poser a piece of art, doesn't mean they can do anything with it, not until they have the rest of the stuff that goes with it for the scene. I have explained this same thing four times now, what you think should be happening, is exactly what is happening. This is beyond silly, I am done.

The people who do what you are claiming, are using things like Daz, which put out full scenes, not pieces in a rig, they are not using hand drawn art. Those games are also not the same style, they are more linear VNs, not open world adventure games. You are comparing apples and robots.

Either way, you are complaining to the wrong people, none of us can change anything.

 

[RedPillBlues]

It depend on the artist, I know plenty of artists who can match other people's style, the problem is that people that good don't come cheep.

True, but I feel like DarkCookies work has its own unique charm that even if someone were to copy it, it wouldn't feel the same.

 

[TheDevian]

True, but I feel like DarkCookies work has its own unique charm that even if someone were to copy it, it wouldn't feel the same.

It's possible, it's amazing to watch.
That said, when I watched Avatar the Last Airbender, I thought similar things when Mako, the voice actor for Iroh, died. He had such a unique vocal styling, that I didn't think anyone could do it justice, but his stand-in did an amazing job.

 

[Francis8rock]

It depend on the artist, I know plenty of artists who can match other people's style, the problem is that people that good don't come cheep.

Dude, I have already addressed that point, you are once again, telling me that I am saying something that I am not saying. Just because you give the poser a piece of art, doesn't mean they can do anything with it, not until they have the rest of the stuff that goes with it for the scene. I have explained this same thing four times now, what you think should be happening, is exactly what is happening. This is beyond silly, I am done.

The people who do what you are claiming, are using things like Daz, which put out full scenes, not pieces in a rig, they are not using hand drawn art. Those games are also not the same style, they are more linear VNs, not open world adventure games. You are comparing apples and robots.

Either way, you are complaining to the wrong people, none of us can change anything.

I never complained. Yet you are talking about putting words in peoples mouths. I said I don't care how long the updates take. All I said was with the team he currently has I don't think an additional artist would make much of a difference. That's it.

 

[Bonhart]

FINALLY the artistic part is over, we begin to see the light at the end of the tunnel, the posing too is almost finished (87%), the part code does not worry me because that one can finish it in a week


( Sorry my english)