Ren'Py Superheroes Suck [v1.851 Public] [Solace]

[derpnibbles]

Missus Powell is the confirmed last love interest of the game. She will be the final romance, so I wouldn't expect her content any time soon. The main story would need to conclude, after which she will enjoy a lengthy development period during the game's "epilogue" development phase.

Sumire is also a confirmed love interest, but falls into the same side character tier as Detective Keegan, Josie, and Artemisia.

"Ahem"
Riley best girl

 

[HNH1985]

Sound good game

 

[cxx]

Please tell me Chrys' mother and Missus Powell will eventually be love interests as well.

you want sumi, chrys and mc 3some?

 

[Lovetities]

you want sumi, chrys and mc 3some?

Won't be possible because of patreon rules and regulations

 

[cxx]

Won't be possible because of patreon rules and regulations

it is possible if they don't do anything with each other.

 

[Lovetities]

it is possible if they don't do anything with each other.

Maybe, but you never know with their tos tbh. Since adopted/step family incest games also get banned. I have seen few games got f*cked because of that. It even risky to add both mother and daughter as li and can fall under incest if Mc marries one of them.

 

[cxx]

Maybe, but you never know with their tos tbh. Since adopted/step family incest games also get banned. I have seen few games got f*cked because of that. It even risky to add both mother and daughter as li and can fall under incest if Mc marries one of them.

true that.

 

[Remembrance]

First off, thank you for all of the nice things you had to say about my story and its characters. I have done my best to keep them consistent and engaging throughout the game's very lengthy development, but I have to disagree with this statement.

Linear stories are easier to make, but only if you know relatively what is going to be in it from beginning to end. This is not how Superheroes Suck is written.

Riley, Chrys, Valentina, and Harper have all had very strong characters arcs that helped define and give depth to their personalities, but none of these were planned in a linear fashion. None of them resemble the original cast I put into the game, and this is because I adapted my work based on the feedback of players and input from my community. And yes, that includes people here on this forum. It wasn't direct. No one told me what to do. I just listened to what people were saying, compared it to my original notes, and went forward with the best combination of the two.

Artemisia is a good example of this. She was never supposed to be a love interest, but I looked at all the car memes popping up here and the good natured discussion of people over AI in distress tropes and their hopes for her future, and it made me realize there was a powerful character there with a unique story that could be told. So, I made her a character.

You misunderstood. I just refers to the presentation of the story & the story itself remains the same with nothing changing.

This in fact is already a pretty linear story, as every few event in a girls route directs you to complete another girls route event, basically forcing you to play the story in a fixed sequence to make the story you(dev) want to show.
Even though the girls have strong character arcs, they are all connected & you are basically forced to play the events in a fixed sequence (eg: you cannot proceed on a girls (A) event until you complete another girls (B) event & cannot proceed on that girls (B) event until you complete yet another girls (C) event - so the story sequence becomes C->B->A)

In contrast you can compare other sandbox games where the romance of girls 1 to 10 don't affect each other & you can freely choose to romance whoever you want in any sequence.

So instead of giving the player the option to move forward in a fixed sequence of events only (progress on girl A's path before any other girls event triggers & then the same thing for Girl B's path), you can just present the events in sequence (Girl A -> Girl B -> other girls) as a vn, saving you the coding of event triggers.

I can't do things like that with a linear story. Where would it go? It doesn't fit neatly into a three act structure. There are too many characters to juggle for this to be a linear love story, especially once we get to the villains.

You just put the events in sequence directly instead of putting event triggers that make the player play the events in that sequence anyway.
If you have to trigger Riley events before Valentina event is unlocked, which in turn is needed to unlock Harper events; you can instead just use the jump command so the Riley->Valentina->Harper event plays in sequence in a VN.

Basically instead of writting 'Complete Riley events' on Valentina's hint page, you just arrange the Riley & Valentina event in sequence as intended in both cases.

The 4 girls path in this novel is too intertwined with each other & the main plot to get any benefit from the sandbox presentation as they need to be completed in a certain sequence to make sense, which is achieved by the game often blocking one or more girls paths & forcing you to play a certain girls path. Since this is the case, just arranging the events in that sequence as a VN would feel better imo.

This is like a CYOA book, but there's only a few options. So it's like a normal book but you still have to follow instructions to turn to specific pages instead of having the pages in sequence conveniently.

I acknowledge that the state of Superheoes Suck's sandbox is not as good as it could be, but redesigning it as a kinetic visual novel is not possible at this stage. It would take me half a year to do something like that without any releases, probably longer as my rendering engine has improved and I would need to replace the first year of work. More than that, it is antithetical to how the game is written. A lot of the joy I get from creating Superheroes Suck is that I have people who are just as enthusiastic as I am that want to see cool things happen. The sandbox gives me the flexibility I need to make that kind of storytelling, so I would much rather invest time into making the sandbox better than abandoning it and making development much more tedious.

Again, a misunderstanding. Revamping/Remaking the game at this stage would be very inefficient & not what I would/was suggesting. I was only giving feedback how the game would be better without the sandbox as a VN given how the character arcs & main plot are intertwined with each other, restricting the sandbox style implementation of the quests.

"More than that, it is antithetical to how the game is written."
Maybe, but sandbox is antithetical to how the game is presented.
The storylines of the girls affect each other (eg: Riley & Chrys interacting about the MC at the beginning of the story) & it's pretty evident the events are meant to take place in a certain order. This feels incompatible/annoying with a sandbox whose main theme is that freedom of which order you complete quests in, & fits more with a sequential VN.

"The sandbox gives me the flexibility I need to make that kind of storytelling"
Maybe that's comfortable for you, no judgement on that. But do understand the game as it currently is, is not flexible. You cannot complete a girls quest line & ignore another girls quest line, as is possible in most sandbox games. While most sandbox games have few characters who are intertwined like this, here all 4 are connected together like that, including even the main plot line.

So rather than a flexible sandbox beach, or a VN's straight road with few branches, the game currently is a tresure hunt in a meadow: You are directed to go from point A to point B then to point C, creating a twisting road thst's jerky to travel on.
Which is more restrictive than the 'move on any direction' beach & more tedious than a straight road.

Ultimately, the main story of Superheroes Suck has always served one purpose: to expand on the love interest's stories. Riley leaving her loveless marriage, Chrys overcoming her trauma of abandonment, Valentina rediscovering her ability to put her heart into something, and Harper taking back control in her life are all the real achievements in the game for me. It's not a fast paced action story, it's not a thrilling mystery. It's a slow-paced love story game about spending time with people you (hopefully) care about.

I wholeheartedly agree. This is also why I said what I said. It's about what format would convey these storylines the best, a jerky sandbox with low freedom or a smooth VN presenting the story in sequence.

If Riley, Chrys, Valentina & Harper's storylines were isolated: i.e. you could complete 50% of either of the storylines without affecting the other 3, it'd be fine as a sandbox. That's the main point of a sandbox, so ppl can choose which storylines/quests to complete & in which order: they can complete a girls full story 1st, or they can do 1st quest for each girl & then the 2nd quest or just the girl they liked.

However here the 4 storylines are intertwined: what you do with Harper affects Chyrs & what you do with Chrs is commented on by Valentina & Riley. This imo is the charm of the VN & also the reason why it feels so great compared to standard isolated sandbox questlines.

But this also means the events need to be played in a specific sequence.
This is achieved by the game directing you to spend time with Harper on Chrys+Riley+Valentina's hint page.
Instead, wouldn't it be easier to just code the Harper event, then the Chrys event & so on as a VN instead of writing event triggers & hints?

Rather than say the sandbox is badly done, it's more like the story would flow more naturally as a VN since the sequence of events is more predetermined rather than being 4 isolated storylines you'd find in most sandbox games.

However after 3 years, as a single person development team, I wouldn't suggest overhauling it rn.
Just keep it in mind for the future: It's better to go VN if you have a specific sequence of events between different girls (Do harper->Chrys reacts-> other events build on chyrs events)
Sandbox is better if each girl's quests are mostly self contained storylines with little necessary/forced overlap allowing the player to proceed with freedom, with little restriction on how/in what order to play the events.

This is more a theoritical feedback rather than a suggestion to implement change in the current game. That's all.
This is my opinion/feedback anyway.
While VN would be better, the sandbox is fine.
Good Luck going forward.

PS: This was about this game specifically. I have nothing against sandboxes & don't mind playing sandbox games.

 

[Dragon59]

You misunderstood. It just refers to the presentation of the story & the story itself remains the same with nothing changing.

This in fact is already a pretty linear story, as every few event in a girls route directs you to complete another girls route, basically forcing you to play the story in a fixed sequence to make the story you want to show.
Even though the girls have strong character arcs, they are all connected & you are basically forced to play the events in a fixed sequence (eg: you cannot proceed on a girls (A) path until you complete another girls (B) path & cannot proceed on that girls (B) path until you complete yet another girls (C) path - so the story sequence becomes C->B->A)

In contrast you can compare other sandbox games where the romance of girls 1 to 10 don't affect each other & you can freely choose to romance whoever you want in any sequence.

So instead of giving the player the option to move forward in a fixed sequence of events only (progress on girl A's path before any other girls event triggers & then the same thing for Girl B's path), you can just present the events in sequence (Girl A -> Girl B -> other girls), saving you the coding of event triggers.


You just put the events in sequence directly instead of putting event triggers that make the player play the events in that sequence anyway.
If you have to trigger Riley events before Valentina event is unlocked, which in turn is needed to unlock Harper events; you can instead just use the jump command so the Riley->Valentina->Harper event plays in sequence in a VN.

Basically instead of writting 'Complete Riley events' on Valentina's hint page, you just arrange the Riley & Valentina event in sequence as intended in both cases.

The 4 girls path in this novel is too intertwined with each other & the main plot to get any benefit from the sandbox presentation as they need to be completed in a certain sequence to make sense, which is achieved by the game often blocking one or more girls paths & forcing you to play a certain girls path. Since this is the case, just arranging the events in that sequence as a VN would feel better imo.

This is like a CYOA book, but there's only a few options. So it's like a normal book but you still have to follow instructions to turn to specific pages instead of having the pages in sequence conveniently.


Again, a misunderstanding. Revamping/Remaking the game at this stage would be very inefficient & not what I would/was suggesting. I was only giving feedback how the game would be better without the sandbox as a VN given how the character arcs & main plot are intertwined with each other, restricting the sandbox style implementation of the quests.

"More than that, it is antithetical to how the game is written."
Maybe, but sandbox is antithetical to how the game is presented.
The storylines of the girls affect each other (eg: Riley & Chrys interacting about the MC at the beginning of the story) & it's pretty evident the events are meant to take place in a certain order. This feels incompatible/annoying with a sandbox whose main theme is that freedom of which order you complete quests in, & fits more with a sequential VN.

"The sandbox gives me the flexibility I need to make that kind of storytelling"
Maybe that's comfortable for you, no judgement on that. But do understand the game as it currently is, is not flexible. You cannot complete a girls quest line & ignore another girls quest line, as is possible in most sandbox games. While most sandbox games have few characters who are intertwined like this, here all 4 are connected together like that, including even the main plot line.

So rather than a flexible sandbox beach, or a VN's straight road with few branches, the game currently is a tresure hunt in a meadow: You are directed to go from point A to point B then to point C, creating a twisting road thst's jerky to travel on.
Which is more restrictive than the 'move on any direction' beach & more tedious than a straight road.


I wholeheartedly agree. This is also why I said what I said. It's about what format would convey these storylines the best, a jerky sandbox with low freedom or a smooth VN presenting the story in sequence.

If Riley, Chrys, Valentina & Harper's storylines were isolated: i.e. you could complete 50% of either of the storylines without affecting the other 3, it'd be fine as a sandbox. That's the main point of a sandbox, so ppl can choose which storylines/quests to complete & in which order: they can complete a girls full story 1st, or they can do 1st quest for each girl & then the 2nd quest or just the girl they liked.

However here the 4 storylines are intertwined: what you do with Harper affects Chyrs & what you do with Chrs is commented on by Valentina & Riley. This imo is the charm of the VN & also the reason why it feels so great compared to standard isolated sandbox questlines.

But this also means the events need to be played in a specific sequence.
This is achieved by the game directing you to spend time with Harper on Chrys+Riley+Valentina's hint page.
Instead, wouldn't it be easier to just code the Harper event, then the Chrys event & so on?

Rather than say the sandbox is badly done, it's more like the story would flow more naturally as a VN since the sequence of events is more predetermined rather than being 4 isolated storylines you'd find in most sandbox games.

However after 3 years, as a single person development team, I wouldn't suggest overhauling it rn.
Just keep it in mind for the future: It's better to go VN if you have a specific sequence of events between different girls (Do harper->Chrys reacts-> other events build on chyrs events)
Sandbox is better if each girl's quests are mostly self contained storylines with little overlap allowing the player to proceed with freedom, with little restriction on how/in what order to play the events.

This is more a theoritical rather than a suggestion to implement change in the current game. That's all.
This is my opinion/feedback anyway.
While VN would be better, the sandbox is fine.
Good Luck going forward.

PS: This was about this game specifically. I have nothing against sandboxes & don't mind playing sandbox games.

And for me, I appreciate that the women's arcs are intertwined with each other. It helps to emphasize that he's not acting behind any of their backs.

 

[Dragon59]

"Ahem"
Riley best girl

Of the four, she is the one who most knows what she is doing (what she likes as well as what she likes to do) and doesn't require the MC to orchestrate every activity.

 

[Remembrance]

And for me, I appreciate that the women's arcs are intertwined with each other. It helps to emphasize that he's not acting behind any of their backs.

I agree. This makes it feel much better designed as a storyline. Even without your point, the progression feels much more organic, switching between the girls events & creating a very nice narrative.
But because of that I feel it'd be more smooth if the storyline was presented as a VN, as compared to a sandbox that goes 'do Harper event next', then 'do chyrs event'.

Basically if the sequence of events you want the player to play is fixed to such an extent, it's better to just play that sequence of events as a vn instead of implementing a sandbox.

The characterisation & narrative flow are the strong points of the game, which isn't enhanced by the sandbox & would benefit somewhat from a VN style.

 

[moskyx]

However after 3 years, as a single person development team, I wouldn't suggest overhauling it rn.
Just keep it in mind for the future: It's better to go VN if you have a specific sequence of events between different girls (Do harper->Chrys reacts-> other events build on chyrs events)
Sandbox is better if each girl's quests are mostly self contained storylines with little overlap allowing the player to proceed with freedom, with little restriction on how/in what order to play the events.

While I tend to agree with your general feeling, what I think you misunderstood is that it couldn't have ever been a linear VN because the way it's being written makes it plainly impossible. A linear VN where you go from point A to point B passing by point C requires some proper planning of those events, while in this case he's been using a more 'chaotic' writing style because the story has been evolving a lot from his original idea. He needs to balance out several LI's stories that are not entirely planned, and those points where their stories are intertwined -those soft blocks-, don't become apparent even for him until he realizes he has advanced one of those stories a little bit too much. He's constantly adapting the content he produces to a story that now has a life of its own, and also to the inputs he gets from patrons and casual players. Right now, the game is a nice experience if you can play it update after update, but a total nightmare if you have to start over. That's when the problems you point out really become apparent and even annoying.

So, even though you say you aren't suggesting overhauling it right now, I do suggest doing exactly this once the story is ended, unless he can come up with a magic way to fill all these currently empty timeslots that force us to play for a week or even more in-game time without being able to advance a single story.

 

[Dragon59]

However after 3 years, as a single person development team, I wouldn't suggest overhauling it rn.
Just keep it in mind for the future: It's better to go VN if you have a specific sequence of events between different girls (Do harper->Chrys reacts-> other events build on chyrs events)
Sandbox is better if each girl's quests are mostly self contained storylines with little necessary/forced overlap allowing the player to proceed with freedom, with little restriction on how/in what order to play the events.

This reminds me of why I chose to start with some of my shorter story ideas before embarking on one of my handful of long-term epic stories. I want to develop my skills with short stories so I'll be less likely to be unhappy with my big stories and feel the urge to redo beginnings. I've seen that urge in too many developers to not take heed.

I also endorse letting the game move forward as it is rather than trying to redo it.

 

[Knight of Solace]

This reminds me of why I chose to start with some of my shorter story ideas before embarking on one of my handful of long-term epic stories. I want to develop my skills with short stories so I'll be less likely to be unhappy with my big stories and feel the urge to redo beginnings. I've seen that urge in too many developers to not take heed.

I also endorse letting the game move forward as it is rather than trying to redo it.

If you can believe it, Superheroes Suck was the shorter idea.

 

[Dragon59]

If you can believe it, Superheroes Suck was the shorter idea.

I can see where that can definitely happen. I hope the characters don't take over completely.
Even doing my current project, "A Paris Exhibition," I expanded the story from one evening (actually one single scene) to the whole day to add context. I'm fighting the urge to expand the story before and after. I'm resolved to keep the story to about 20 hours of their lives (and four erotic scenes)

 

[Remembrance]

While I tend to agree with your general feeling, what I think you misunderstood is that it couldn't have ever been a linear VN because the way it's being written makes it plainly impossible. A linear VN where you go from point A to point B passing by point C requires some proper planning of those events, while in this case he's been using a more 'chaotic' writing style because the story has been evolving a lot from his original idea. He needs to balance out several LI's stories that are not entirely planned, and those points where their stories are intertwined -those soft blocks-, don't become apparent even for him until he realizes he has advanced one of those stories a little bit too much. He's constantly adapting the content he produces to a story that now has a life of its own, and also to the inputs he gets from patrons and casual players. Right now, the game is a nice experience if you can play it update after update, but a total nightmare if you have to start over. That's when the problems you point out really become apparent and even annoying.

So, even though you say you aren't suggesting overhauling it right now, I do suggest doing exactly this once the story is ended, unless he can come up with a magic way to fill all these currently empty timeslots that force us to play for a week or even more in-game time without being able to advance a single story.

Hmm, I see. Then it's impressive (or weird) that it feels to me like a VN forced to be a sandbox instead. The storylines intertwine so well for events that were individually written.

I actually didn't mind the waits. I've played lots of sandbox before & most cannot escape situations where you have to wait next week for next event (though a 'skip to next week' button would be a nice QoL change).

For me it was the constant blocks directing me to play in a fixed route. I felt like I was playing a VN (do harper->chrys comes in->), only instead of directly going to the next scene I was made to go to console & type the jump commands myself.
It's like when your superior says to do the project in your own way, then backseat drives with texts the whole time. At which point you wish he'd just take over the team officially

But I guess it's easier to write?
Even if the time slots are filled with casual events, everyone will just skip the events after the 1st time (like I do with the sex scenes to pass time+grind points), so it'll feel the same.
A sandbox cannot escape the fate of having empty days while waiting for the next trigger, though it can be somewhat mitigated by more girls/events.

I'd also like to see that final overhaul/adjustment at the end after the game's finished & the story has taken shape

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[moskyx]

Hmm, I see. Then it's impressive (or weird) that it feels to me like a VN forced to be a sandbox instead. The storylines intertwine so well for events that were individually written.

I actually didn't mind the waits. I've played lots of sandbox before & most cannot escape situations where you have to wait next week for next event (though a 'skip to next week' button would be a nice QoL change).

For me it was the constant blocks directing me to play in a fixed route. I felt like I was playing a VN (do harper->chrys comes in->), only instead of directly going to the next scene I was made to go to console & type the jump commands myself.
It's like when your superior says to do the project in your own way, then backseat drives with texts the whole time. At which point you wish he'd just take over the team officially

But I guess it's easier to write?
Even if the time slots are filled with casual events, everyone will just skip the events after the 1st time (like I do with the sex scenes to pass time+grind points), so it'll feel the same.
A sandbox cannot escape the fate of having empty days while waiting for the next trigger, though it can be somewhat mitigated by more girls/events.

I'd also like to see that final overhaul/adjustment at the end after the game's finished & the story has taken shape

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I'd lie if I say I haven't think a few times about creating that mod myself

 

[Knight of Solace]

I'd lie if I say I haven't think a few times about creating that mod myself

Please do not do that.

I have acknowledged many times that the game's sandbox needs work, but I also enjoy the sandbox aspect of my game. What you are describing isn't a mod - it's a completely different release of the game.

Superheroes Suck was not meant to flow from event to event. The passage of time itself is controlled by the sandbox. When I talk about revisiting the issue in the future closer towards the game's end, that is because I recognize the amount of work that would need to go into making such a leap in narrative pacing possible. Effectively, every single event would need another event in between them to make the transition smooth. We're talking doubling the size of the game. This is why it's not even possible for me to consider right now.

Not to mention a good portion of work that goes into the game with every release now is addressing the lack of content in the sandbox, which would then not fit in this framework. You would lose roughly a fourth of the content with a change like this, or have the same jumpy transitions you have now anyway, except I would have no ability to correct it whatsoever.

The Sandbox environment makes it easier for me to create, to maintain, to bug fix, and to provide overall support. I am dedicated to fixing the Sandbox for these reasons; it's just better for me overall as a developer. The production issues I am experiencing with the game has nothing to do with the sandbox and everything to do with the amount of time and budget I have at my disposal to work on Superheroes Suck. Those are the things that need to be changed for a more efficient production pipeline. I'm hoping to save up my earnings this year for a beefier computer next year.

 

[AggressiveCheeto]

I liked the sandbox a lot and I'm sure I have a higher tolerance than most, but that's also why I believe it's really not that bad at all having seen the more egregious sandboxes in other games. My only complaint is really those extra events like pet play and daddy stuff where I wouldn't have known they existed if I didn't explore or read the changelog. Having the extra stuff listed in a separate tab or some marker would make that easier for those who want to see them and don't want to click every room at every time of day all 7 days of the week or just aren't aware or paying attention to this stuff. The normal sandbox progression system works perfectly fine and I almost always knew exactly where to go and when to progress the characters and didn't mind the roughly five clicks max it took to get to the next event.

 

[moskyx]

Please do not do that.

I have acknowledged many times that the game's sandbox needs work, but I also enjoy the sandbox aspect of my game. What you are describing isn't a mod - it's a completely different release of the game.

Superheroes Suck was not meant to flow from event to event. The passage of time itself is controlled by the sandbox. When I talk about revisiting the issue in the future closer towards the game's end, that is because I recognize the amount of work that would need to go into making such a leap in narrative pacing possible. Effectively, every single event would need another event in between them to make the transition smooth. We're talking doubling the size of the game. This is why it's not even possible for me to consider right now.

Not to mention a good portion of work that goes into the game with every release now is addressing the lack of content in the sandbox, which would then not fit in this framework. You would lose roughly a fourth of the content with a change like this, or have the same jumpy transitions you have now anyway, except I would have no ability to correct it whatsoever.

The Sandbox environment makes it easier for me to create, to maintain, to bug fix, and to provide overall support. I am dedicated to fixing the Sandbox for these reasons; it's just better for me overall as a developer. The production issues I am experiencing with the game has nothing to do with the sandbox and everything to do with the amount of time and budget I have at my disposal to work on Superheroes Suck. Those are the things that need to be changed for a more efficient production pipeline. I'm hoping to save up my earnings this year for a beefier computer next year.

Don't panic, I just said I have thought about it, but I definitely don't intend to do it. Hell, I do see your code update after update and I'm perfectly aware of the rewriting effort it would be needed to convert this game into a VN. I'm a longtime supporter and I know how's your workflow and love the game's concept, and I'm also perfectly OK with the overall execution -which doesn't mean I can't see some room for improvement. The initial wall of slow progression is a real, annoying feeling many players experience when they try the game for the first time (a couple of them told me that after I recommended the game to them), and that makes some of them completely drop it. And I think I told you at least once that it just doesn't seem natural how some scenes aren't triggered immediately after an important one, especially those regarding MC's powers and patrols, due to the sandbox nature of the game. Here you have a sandbox that is mostly empty (I know the content doesn't grow on the trees, so that's understandable), and that is also a 'false' sandbox because you can't really advance a girl's story at your own pace since you need to advance all of them, so you get the sandbox lovers 'angry', but at the same time, it has all the inconveniences of a real sandbox regarding main story progression (things not happening when the story demands them to happen, but when you visit a certain place at a certain time after meeting some other apparently non-strictly related criteria). It's just natural that some people would feel that it could have been made as a linear VN, even though it's not a really realistic plan.

Now, can you do something about it? Probably not, so don't sweat it. As I said, I'm happy enough with the game as it is because it has a truly authentic feeling in terms of writing, characterization, and art (those expression nuances like Riley closing her eyes before suggesting Sunday mornings for massages). And your work ethic is really commendable, which is always a big plus. So stick to your vision and don't mind us venting our probably unfair frustrations from time to time.