How much do we know about the Apostles? From what I remember from my playthrough, the First is Authority, the Second is Power, the Third is Memory, and Fourth is Body (might've mixed up 3 and 4). I assume that "Grandfather" character that Alice saw after her evolution is one of them, but not sure which. The Eleventh and Twelfth are twins (though there is a trend of pairing sequential apostles together like how Authority and Power pair to make Order, and how the MC refers to 3rd and 4th as Mother and Father) but I don't know what they represent. I haven't gone into much of the deadends. Also do we still not really know what the thing that killed Mother was in the dead end where we fight Ella? If I recall correctly, it will appear in one of the MC's dreams, I assume if corruption is high enough but I'm not certain about that.
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- Jul 13, 2018
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Exactly. Deryl, Michael, Tiffany and Alice are all connected to an apostle. They're going to play major roles. Jake is the exception because he can die but he's 1st Spawn. Laurie has no connection at all. She's not link to any of the major plot points that'll develop from here on out and she's not strong enough for the stuff we'll be facing.
As happy as I am that Danica is alive, I'm not delusional enough to think she's going to be apart of the main cast. I'm thankful that WW gave me my waifu, but I'm under no illusion that she'll be that important to the story going forward beyond her being alive still. At most, she'll be working as Xanthe's assassin in the background and MC's lover.
- Jul 13, 2018
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The Dead End monster that kills the 4th's avatar with Ella is the 7th. That's Valravn's Lord.
As for the Apostles, we don't know a lot still but we know there's 12 of them, each with a twin born alongside them. Each twin is closely linked together and they share their powers. The twins are:
1st and 2nd is Authority and Power
3rd and 4th is Body and Memory
5th and 6th is Time and Ether(Space)
7th and 8th is Dark and Light
9th and 10th is unknown currently
11th and 12th is Destruction and Creation
These are the characters directly connected to an Apostle.
The 1st - Jake
The 2nd - Michael
The 3rd - Ella and MC (possibly)
The 4th - Aglaecwif and MC
The 5th - Possibly Deus
The 6th - Fairy Thing and Alice
The 7th - Valravn
The 8th - Tiffany
The 9th - Eisheth
The 10th - Mystery Chosen(?)
The 11th - Evander
The 12th - Rebis, Tanos, Devana and Deryl
I get Love and Hate vibes from 9 and 10. Mostly from Eisheth and also kinda from Demi.
- Jul 13, 2018
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While anything's possible, the twins seem to make up the universe in a dualistic manner. In the sense that they have cosmic properties that govern everything.
Demi's power alters perception and emotions which could be a memory and authority trait. Monsters breeding a lot created many traits so it's not exactly guaranteed that it hints at an Apostle Trait. 9th and 10th was originally thought to be Death and Destruction by me before the reveal this update but it seems that Life falls under Creation which eliminated the need for the Life and Death duality. Especially since Destruction is now the 11th.
The only thing I can think of at the moment is Cause (9th) and Effect (10th) with the combined power being Causality. I'll have work out some ideas after rereading Eisheth memory scene again. It does hint at what her trait could be but we'll likely have to wait and see.
- Aug 19, 2022
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Demi's monster does kinda look like higher up the scale. Something with emotions and could be a good fit for Liz.
- Jul 13, 2018
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Mmm, I think cause and effect are a bit too esoteric. Sure, they're a duology, but not really in the same way as the other ones. It's kinda funky to talk about one without the other.
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Order is the original trait of Authority and Power. Chaos or Change could be the original trait of the 3rd and 4th.
Unless you can think of another set of powers that could govern reality and complete each other. Cause and Effect are one of the last few left.
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How would that work though? With what Eisheth showed.
Is and Is Not is Reality and Fiction, Real and Unreal or True and False. That's more into the God territory, if it was a thing. Not so much the 6 Arbiters and 12 Apostles.
- Jul 13, 2021
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It's more likely for Eisheth's Apostle to be relevant to her powers than her state of mind, and the main ability we can observe is telekinesis. Telekinesis is about motion, so a possible apostolic pair could be Motion and Inertia. Very Newtonian!
This is how I perceive the apostolic concepts. Those who were born first were the building blocks for those who came after. It works a bit like a chain, although it's not exact:
1) Authority / Behavior -> Determines the behaviors of everything. The laws of the universe
2) Power / Energy -> The universe started as various energies that interacted and created the rest, according to the laws of authority.
3) Body / Matter -> Energy can create matter.
4) Memory / Structure -> The structure of matter determines it's properties
5) Time / Causality -> Time as a concept exists because we can observe matter. It's powers seem to manipulate cause and effect.
6) Space / Dimensions -> Matter has dimensions and mass creates gravity
7) Dark -> This one is a bit odd conceptually. It could refer to the absense of matter, or something related to the default state of the universe.
8) Light -> Light symbolizes many things, so again I'm not sure how it works conceptually, but it requires matter and structure in order to exist.
9) (Speculation) Motion -> Through the interaction of energy, matter and space, objects can move relative to one another.
10) (Speculation) Inertia -> Objects want to retain their state of movement.
11) Destruction / Annihilation -> The combination of the previous concepts that facilitates the transformation of matter to energy.
12) Creation / Purpose -> The combination of all the previous concepts to create objects with purpose.
Of course some of my descriptions are a bit iffy but I don't have a better way to present them.
This is how I perceive the apostolic concepts. Those who were born first were the building blocks for those who came after. It works a bit like a chain, although it's not exact:
1) Authority / Behavior -> Determines the behaviors of everything. The laws of the universe
2) Power / Energy -> The universe started as various energies that interacted and created the rest, according to the laws of authority.
3) Body / Matter -> Energy can create matter.
4) Memory / Structure -> The structure of matter determines it's properties
5) Time / Causality -> Time as a concept exists because we can observe matter. It's powers seem to manipulate cause and effect.
6) Space / Dimensions -> Matter has dimensions and mass creates gravity
7) Dark -> This one is a bit odd conceptually. It could refer to the absense of matter, or something related to the default state of the universe.
8) Light -> Light symbolizes many things, so again I'm not sure how it works conceptually, but it requires matter and structure in order to exist.
9) (Speculation) Motion -> Through the interaction of energy, matter and space, objects can move relative to one another.
10) (Speculation) Inertia -> Objects want to retain their state of movement.
11) Destruction / Annihilation -> The combination of the previous concepts that facilitates the transformation of matter to energy.
12) Creation / Purpose -> The combination of all the previous concepts to create objects with purpose.
Of course some of my descriptions are a bit iffy but I don't have a better way to present them.
That's true...
Able to move objects and lifeforms, so it's probably not another mentality based power like authority or memory, it would be weird to triple up on that.
Maybe Fate/Destiny vs Freedom?
I like the idea behind this, but I feel motion/inertia is pretty much subsumed conceptually by authority
EDIT: Maybe Change vs Stasis is a better way of putting it?
- Jul 13, 2018
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I honestly don't have a good replacement for 9th and 10th. While Cause and Effect makes a lot of sense for me, even I'm not confident in that. I think I went too hard on Life, Death, Creation and Destruction speculation that I didn't expect WW to say fuck that, I'm combining them together instead. Pretty much removing Life and Death from the speculation altogether.
I will say it's more exciting this way though. Like, I guessed the 12th accurately and pretty much the 11th as well. I just didn't put the 11th in the correct order. Now, it's a complete mystery and has me even more interested to find out what it could be from the clues in the future.
I will say it's more exciting this way though. Like, I guessed the 12th accurately and pretty much the 11th as well. I just didn't put the 11th in the correct order. Now, it's a complete mystery and has me even more interested to find out what it could be from the clues in the future.
At this point, I'm just looking up common dualities. I figure whatever the real answer is, it's not gonna be something super radical. Like we've got pretty standard dualities here with light and dark, creation and destruction, etc. So I'm not expecting something totally out there like Concepts vs Actualization or something. Cause and Effect makes the most sense not because I think it's a good fit, but because it's a very popular duality that wouldn't seem out of place on the list.
Even though it might sound a little implausible, I was thinking about the possibility that "Integrity" was the origin shared by the Third and Fourth. Integrity as in being "whole," "undivided," and "complete.". "What You Think" and "What You Do" are integrated. "Integrity" and "Chaos" would be diametrically opposed.
In that one Dead End, isn't "completion" what the Arbiter is searching for?
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