VN Ren'Py Superhuman [v0.99] [WeirdWorld]

[TheShelly]

Transformation happens outside of Elijah's view because Shen is highly skilled at using his power. Illusions exist in Elijah's perception because how else Shen can be present as an illusion communicating with him otherwise. Also Shen having memory lineage power makes it easier to choose what to show to a certain person. I don't think SIN has that level of intel on HERO's high-ups.

Man, the coping is insane. I very highly doubt that a single still relatively fresh lvl 4 superhuman could have enough skill and power to consistently fool two lvl 5s.

 

[sexoffended]

Man, the coping is insane. I very highly doubt that a single still relatively fresh lvl 4 superhuman could have enough skill and power to consistently fool two lvl 5s.

We had lvl2 Jake giving indirect order to lvl5 Alexis.

Shen's power can be explained in it's entirety by already existing things. There's no need to dedicate an entire fundamental aspect of reality to making bad dreams.

 

[myst0501]

So far we haven't seen any example of memories being taken out completely on the fly as soon as they are made. We've seen Shen forcing his image into Elijah's perception, but judging by how Shen is capable of ordering people into dreams, his power must have Authority component. I suspect that taking out someone's memories with this speed, precision and completeness will be almost impossible for someone stronger than MC and absolutely impractical for targets weaker.

Memory to project Eisheth's visage, Authority to make onlookers believe in it. Shen is capable of projecting himself into lvl5's head while being pretty far away. It's also unknown how he benefit from limits lifted by 4th evolution. Using other people as connection point with memory is possible.

These two statements seem contradictory to me.

Assuming, as you suppose, Shen's power has an authority component to it, why would that then allow him to use memory powers to alter the perceptions of two lvl 5 superhumans for a prolonged time?

 

[sexoffended]

These two statements seem contradictory to me.

Assuming, as you suppose, Shen's power has an authority component to it, why would that then allow him to use memory powers to alter the perceptions of two lvl 5 superhumans for a prolonged time?

You mishmashed my response about pure Memory trait. It alone can't do everything necessary to make perception alterations as complete. No contradiction.

Authority is known to be able to be used on much stronger targets without entering into internal power clash. Why wouldn't it? Especially if you forget that Shen's main power is forcing dreams, and illusions are something secondary.

 

[Gtdead]

You mishmashed my response about pure Memory trait. It alone can't do everything necessary to make perception alterations as complete. No contradiction.

1. Authority is known to be able to be used on much stronger targets without entering into internal power clash. Why wouldn't it? 2. Especially if you forget that Shen's main power is forcing dreams, and illusions are something secondary.

1.
I don't think this applies to Shen.
The example we have is Jake saying something that Alexis wouldn't care about. Jake could not ask Alexis for the base location and it's not like allowing Jake in a particular room would be terrible, at least not for her.

Once Alexis started viewing Jake as a hostile, all bets were off.
Elijah views Shen as a hostile from the get go, but there is no power contest. The contexts do not match and the narrator says that Shen's power affects the humans, not the Superhumans.

2.
It's quite unlikely for the complex power to be the primary and the simple power to be the secondary. This doesn't really happen.

Jake first learned how to imbue his words with his power, and then how to give specific commands.
MC first learned basic memory reading and then how to consume memories.
MC first learned how to stretch his hands and then how to make tentacles.
Alice first manifested her fist orbs and then her graviton bomb.
Deryl first knew how to make objects and then learned how to make clones and chimera.
Danica first learned to throw light crosses and then she learned how to do the X marks the spot.

The simplest power is almost always the first one. (I'm talking about active ones, because the passive ones always manifest first)
Thinking that the convoluted ability with no exact rules manifested first, compared to just changing the appearence of an object, is a losing bet.

There is no precedent where Memory powers affect an object in relation to a target as MC can't do anything like that.
There is no precedent where Authority powers affect an object in relation to a target as Jake can't do anything like that.

The only one who can do something like that is Demi and that's why everyone thinks she will end up being the Dream for the 10th, even if she has an obvious authority component in her passive power, forcing MC to stay his hand against Clove.

 

[sexoffended]

1.
I don't think this applies to Shen.
The example we have is Jake saying something that Alexis wouldn't care about. Jake could not ask Alexis for the base location and it's not like allowing Jake in a particular room would be terrible, at least not for her.

Once Alexis started viewing Jake as a hostile, all bets were off.
Elijah views Shen as a hostile from the get go, but there is no power contest. The contexts do not match and the narrator says that Shen's power affects the humans, not the Superhumans.

2.
It's quite unlikely for the complex power to be the primary and the simple power to be the secondary. This doesn't really happen.

Jake first learned how to imbue his words with his power, and then how to give specific commands.
MC first learned basic memory reading and then how to consume memories.
MC first learned how to stretch his hands and then how to make tentacles.
Alice first manifested her fist orbs and then her graviton bomb.
Deryl first knew how to make objects and then learned how to make clones and chimera.
Danica first learned to throw light crosses and then she learned how to do the X marks the spot.

The simplest power is almost always the first one. (I'm talking about active ones, because the passive ones always manifest first)
Thinking that the convoluted ability with no exact rules manifested first, compared to just changing the appearence of an object, is a losing bet.

There is no precedent where Memory powers affect an object in relation to a target as MC can't do anything like that.
There is no precedent where Authority powers affect an object in relation to a target as Jake can't do anything like that.

The only one who can do something like that is Demi and that's why everyone thinks she will end up being the Dream for the 10th, even if she has an obvious authority component in her passive power, forcing MC to stay his hand against Clove.

1. And once Elijah noticed illusions he dissipated them at once. Dream's hold over MC weakens once he noticed it. Authority doesn't get purged as long as you didn't find the exact application of it. And in our case Authority pushes into view very real memories.

2. Dream is primary in utility, not technique. Jake has an array of special attacks, and yet against Alexis he uses words. Same stuff here.

We have an example of HERO's interrogator being able to use Memory to connect to others visually. Demi is unable to control perception of others in any meaningful way. Her power can be better explained by very real psychological phenomenon (

You must be registered to see the links

). She exercises power of desire onto an inanimate object as a medium, entirety within Authority's portfolio with Jake's Imprint and everything else Demi did, and then someone affected by it makes up reason to approach said object, which manifests itself as a hallucination.

 

[myst0501]

1. And once Elijah noticed illusions he dissipated them at once. Dream's hold over MC weakens once he noticed it. Authority doesn't get purged as long as you didn't find the exact application of it. And in our case Authority pushes into view very real memories.

This isn't quite true. Shen continues to taunt Elijah for a while after via an illusionary double. Elijah, at this point, is well aware that what he is seeing is an illusion, yet he still sees it.

 

[Gtdead]

1. And once Elijah noticed illusions he dissipated them at once. Dream's hold over MC weakens once he noticed it. Authority doesn't get purged as long as you didn't find the exact application of it. And in our case Authority pushes into view very real memories.

2. Dream is primary in utility, not technique. Jake has an array of special attacks, and yet against Alexis he uses words. Same stuff here.

We have an example of HERO's interrogator being able to use Memory to connect to others visually. Demi is unable to control perception of others in any meaningful way. Her power can be better explained by very real psychological phenomenon (

You must be registered to see the links

). She exercises power of desire onto an inanimate object as a medium, entirety within Authority's portfolio with Jake's Imprint and everything else Demi did, and then someone affected by it makes up reason to approach said object, which manifests itself as a hallucination.

1. Elijah just noticed a flicker when he turned his head. He never dispelled the illusion, the Argils still looked like human and the scene was interrupted by Kira landing next to him. And he never dispelled the Eisheth illusions despite knowing that they were fake.

2. Demi has shown to affect perception and you can't explain a power which affects dumb rock monsters on a psychological phenomenon.
That's like trying to argue that dogs are so confident at everything they do because of Dunning-Kruger. Dogs don't even process things like humans do.
If it was just humans I'd entertain it but the C Rank hunt makes this point hard to digest.

Your Jake example is wrong.
Jake forces his Target to imprint to anyone Jake wants. That's why he can make Deryl imprint to Ella despite her not being there.
Jake does not force other people to imprint to his Target.

Every time Jake uses his power, only the affected will act differently, not their satellites, not some random bystander.
This is completely opposite to Demi's power who charms a Target and the others see that Target as an object of desire.

 

[sexoffended]

1. Elijah just noticed a flicker when he turned his head. He never dispelled the illusion, the Argils still looked like human and the scene was interrupted by Kira landing next to him. And he never dispelled the Eisheth illusions despite knowing that they were fake.

2. Demi has shown to affect perception and you can't explain a power which affects dumb rock monsters on a psychological phenomenon.
That's like trying to argue that dogs are so confident at everything they do because of Dunning-Kruger. Dogs don't even process things like humans do.
If it was just humans I'd entertain it but the C Rank hunt makes this point hard to digest.

Your Jake example is wrong.
Jake forces his Target to imprint to anyone Jake wants. That's why he can make Deryl imprint to Ella despite her not being there.
Jake does not force other people to impring to his Target.

Every time Jake uses his power, only the affected will act differently, not their satellites, not some random bystander.
This is completely opposite to Demi's power who charms a Target and the others see that Target as an object of desire.

1. Kira said Elijah not to bother dispelling illusions and focus on power perception. It doesn't mean they can't do that. Also Elijah started to see illusions on Argils flicker afterwards. Don't forget about assumed memory component.

2. Don't be obtuse. It's well established that monsters have minds desires included. Jake's order to run away worked on oil zombies.

I used Imprint as common point to establish that Authority can create and control desires.
And I used Demi as an example of mixed lineage capable of using mediums for Authority powers. Shen has Memory line, therefore capable of using other people to channel his power.

 

[myst0501]

1. Kira said Elijah not to bother dispelling illusions and focus on power perception. It doesn't mean they can't do that. Also Elijah started to see illusions on Argils flicker afterwards. Don't forget about assumed memory component.

Do you have a quote for when Kira says not to bother dispelling the illusions? Because the only thing she says is to put aside his morals and focus on taking down their target.

"The humans shimmer and change, each one of them taking on Eisheth's visage, a thousand of her smirking faces leering at Elijah."
Eisheth "Shall we play some hide and seek?"
Kira "You ready Elijah?"
Elijah "W-Wait, we can't...."
Kira "Now's not the time for your fucking morals Eli. Let's kill this cunt."
Elijah "But the people...."
Kira "Only one of them has power. Sense her, and strike."
Elijah "The collateral damage though, we can't just-"
Kira "So you're just gonna lay down and let this bitch kill you!? How many humans do you think that will save you fucking moron!!"
Kira "The faster we kill her, the faster this ends, the less humans die."
Elijah "I... You're right."

 

[sexoffended]

This isn't quite true. Shen continues to taunt Elijah for a while after via an illusionary double. Elijah, at this point, is well aware that what he is seeing is an illusion, yet he still sees it.

Eli is too busy being a bitch to do anything remotely productive.

 

[sexoffended]

Do you have a quote for when Kira says not to bother dispelling the illusions? Because the only thing she says is to put aside his morals and focus on taking down their target.

Focus on detecting power to target her.

 

[myst0501]

Focus on detecting power to target her.

Right, but that's not my point. You said that kira told him not to bother with dispelling the illusions, and that they still had the ability to do so, but choose not to. Where was that said?

Eli is too busy being a bitch to do anything remotely productive.

Elijah's supposed bitch status is neither here nor their.

 

[sexoffended]

Right, but that's not my point. You said that kira told him not to bother with dispelling the illusions, and that they still had the ability to, but choose not to. Where was that said?


Elijah's supposed status as a bitch is neither here nor their.

Reading comprehension is an important skill.
"Disregard collateral damage and use power sense to do the job" is close to what I said. And Elijah was close to completely shrugging off Shen's influence. Unfortunately, he was too big of sucker to manage it.

Jake's bitch status was the thing that made him unable to force Jared that one time.

 

[Gtdead]

1. Kira said Elijah not to bother dispelling illusions and focus on power perception. It doesn't mean they can't do that. Also Elijah started to see illusions on Argils flicker afterwards. Don't forget about assumed memory component.

2. Don't be obtuse. It's well established that monsters have minds desires included. Jake's order to run away worked on oil zombies.

I used Imprint as common point to establish that Authority can create and control desires.
And I used Demi as an example of mixed lineage capable of using mediums for Authority powers. Shen has Memory line, therefore capable of using other people to channel his power.

1) The memory component is what we are trying to prove or disprove. It's not something to be taken for granded. Kira said that tthat they can just read the energy of each individual to understand who the real Eiseth is. There is a relevant HERO class for this ability. Dude you are making way too many blunders and you make a pass about reading comprehension. The snark is not needed.

2) Dogs also have desires and minds, they just don't process things like humans. You can attract a dog but you can't apply psychological principles that have only been proven on humans. So this argument falls flat when attempting to explain the powers, especially when there is a disconnect between the explanation and what we see.

Demi is clearly shown to apply her power to a Target and attract some other being to that Target. Jake is clearly shown to force his Target to imprint, not others to imprint to his target.

 

[myst0501]

Reading comprehension is an important skill.

Agreed, it is, I hope you follow through on that.

"Disregard collateral damage and use power sense to do the job" is close to what I said. And Elijah was close to completely shrugging off Shen's influence. Unfortunately, he was too big of sucker to manage it.

Fine, let's break it down point by point.

1. "Disregard collateral damage and use power sense to do the job"
You said " Kira said Elijah not to bother dispelling illusions and focus on power perception."
No where in this do you mention collateral damage, but you do mention dispelling illusions. Dispelling is a very different to disregarding. Words have meaning, and as you said, reading comprehension is an important skill.

2. is close to what I said.
Close is just that, close. Changing out just a few words and omitting others can entirely change the meaning of what you say, which I'm sure you are aware of.

3. And Elijah was close to completely shrugging off Shen's influence.
How do we know this? Where was it stated or shown that Elijah was close or even capable of shrugging off shen's supposed influence. This come across as an assumption without evidence.

4. Unfortunately, he was too big of sucker to manage it.
Entirely subjective view of him, and meaningless to his ability to "shrug off shen's influence".

Finally, while were sharing advice on bettering ourselves, my suggestion is avoid making assumptions or presenting those assumptions as fact.

 

[sexoffended]

1) The memory component is what we are trying to prove or disprove. It's not something to be taken for granded. Kira said that tthat they can just read the energy of each individual to understand who the real Eiseth is. There is a relevant HERO class for this ability. Dude you are making way too many blunders and you make a pass about reading comprehension. The snark is not needed.

2) Dogs also have desires and minds, they just don't process things like humans. You can attract a dog but you can't apply psychological principles that have only been proven on humans. So this argument falls flat when attempting to explain the powers, especially when there is a disconnect between the explanation and what we see.

Demi is clearly shown to apply her power to a Target and attract some other being to that Target. Jake is clearly shown to force his Target to imprint, not others to imprint to his target.

Memory component will explain:
Shen's ability to find weaknesses in people, channel his power through them, construct entire scenes for them to immerse.

Authority component will explain:
Shen's ability to make someone see memory as something present, keep targets in constructed sleep against their will, compound power of sleep with time, affect someone 1 lvl higher.

Your theory bases everything on dubious speculation of 10th being Illusion. Including the intel required for illusion to be effective.

I used Jake's Imprint and Demi's desire manipulation to prove that Demi has significant Authority lineage. Nothing else.
I used Demi's desire manipulation and scientific research to explain how her power can produce "illusions" and why they are different from person to person an unknown to Demi herself. That's because they are hallucinations produced individually under mind control. Dogs are irrelevant to this discussion because first we don't know and can't research their behaviour in this level of detail and second I used Jake's order to zombies as an example of Authority affecting seemingly mindless creatures.
Demi clearly has power with strong Authority component.

Shen's illusion is memory forced into hallucination by mind control. No new speculations introduced.

 

[sexoffended]

Agreed, it is, I hope you follow through on that.



Fine, let's break it down point by point.

1. "Disregard collateral damage and use power sense to do the job"
You said " Kira said Elijah not to bother dispelling illusions and focus on power perception."
No where in this do you mention collateral damage, but you do mention dispelling illusions. Dispelling is a very different to disregarding. Words have meaning, and as you said, reading comprehension is an important skill.

2. is close to what I said.
Close is just that, close. Changing out just a few words and omitting others can entirely change the meaning of what you say, which I'm sure you are aware of.

3. And Elijah was close to completely shrugging off Shen's influence.
How do we know this? Where was it stated or shown that Elijah was close or even capable of shrugging off shen's supposed influence. This come across as an assumption without evidence.

4. Unfortunately, he was too big of sucker to manage it.
Entirely subjective view of him, and meaningless to his ability to "shrug off shen's influence".

Finally, while were sharing advice on bettering ourselves, my suggestion is avoid making assumptions or presenting those assumptions as fact.

1, 2. I didn't quote everything verbatim. And I don't need to, by your own words it was close.

3. How else do you explain him seeing flickering images of people over monsters and then blasting everyone out?

4. Jake failed to give order to Jared an got beaten because he was a bitch. Elijah failed to completely overpower illusions and lost because he was a bitch.
Authority affects everyone according to their mentality and there's nothing subjective about that fact.

Learn to read.

 

[myst0501]

1, 2. I didn't quote everything verbatim. And I don't need to, by your own words it was close.

3. How else do you explain him seeing flickering images of people over monsters and then blasting everyone out?

4. Jake failed to give order to Jared an got beaten because he was a bitch. Elijah failed to completely overpower illusions and lost because he was a bitch.
Authority affects everyone according to their mentality and there's nothing subjective about that fact.

Learn to read.

1 + 2: You said it was close, my entire point is that the words and therefore the meaning was entirely different between the two. Take your own advice.

3. The same way I explain Shen's image having a hole in it when Elijah shot a ball through it, Shen's powers are not flawless. Add that to the fact that he is facing superhumans significantly stronger than him, its not strange for Shen's abilities to falter or not be as effective as they would be against someone weaker.

4. Consider what authority means in this context. Jake failed to order Jared around because he felt he lacked authority, once he felt that way it worked. You're suggesting elijah failed to overpower the illusion because he was "a bitch".
I'm not sure why Elijahs feelings should matter for the one on the receiving end of a power based on one's own sense of authority. Whether Elijah views himself as a bitch, whether he is actually a bitch, doesn't change how Shen views himself in that situation and therefore the efficacy of his power as shown in the jake example with jared.

Again, I will also add that your view of Elijah is entirely subjective. I could make the counter argument that his strong moral qualms about hurting innocents doesn't imply weakness or being "a bitch". Instead I could argue that his almost fanatical desire to do good and be a hero should give him a higher sense of "authority" and make it easier to break free of shen's illusion, that is assuming they're based on authority.

 

[sexoffended]

1 + 2: You said it was close, my entire point is that the words and therefore the meaning was entirely different between the two. Take your own advice.

3. The same way I explain Shen's image having a hole in it when Elijah shot a ball through it, Shen's powers are not flawless. Add that to the fact that he is facing superhumans significantly stronger than him, its not strange for Shen's abilities to falter or not be as effective as they would be against someone weaker.

4. Consider what authority means in this context. Jake failed to order Jared around because he felt he lacked authority, once he felt that way it worked. You're suggesting elijah failed to overpower the illusion because he was "a bitch".
I'm not sure why Elijahs feelings should matter for the one on the receiving end of a power based on one's own sense of authority. Whether Elijah views himself as a bitch, whether he is actually a bitch, doesn't change how Shen views himself in that situation and therefore the efficacy of his power as shown in the jake example with jared.

Again, I will also add that your view of Elijah is entirely subjective. I could make the counter argument that his strong moral qualms about hurting innocents doesn't imply weakness or being "a bitch". Instead I could argue that his almost fanatical desire to do good and be a hero should give him a higher sense of "authority" and make it easier to break free of shen's illusion, that is assuming they're based on authority.

1,2. Again, I view Kira's words to push Elijah to kill the monster above everything else as her wanting to disregard illusions. Learn to read.

3. Shen can make illusions alright, I don't argue against it. How a hole in one of it makes them something else? How Shen being weaker means anything else besides not being able to put Eli or Kira to sleep immediately? Learn to read.

4. Elijah was too emotional and therefore more vulnerable to influence of Authority. Instead of focusing on severing the connection he kept getting more agitated until he made a massive blunder that cost Kira her arm. Elijah therefore is a bitch. Learn to read.