VN Ren'Py Superhuman [v0.99] [WeirdWorld]

[myst0501]

1,2. Again, I view Kira's words to push Elijah to kill the monster above everything else as her wanting to disregard illusions. Learn to read.

3. Shen can make illusions alright, I don't argue against it. How a hole in one of it makes them something else? How Shen being weaker means anything else besides not being able to put Eli or Kira to sleep immediately? Learn to read.

4. Elijah was too emotional and therefore more vulnerable to influence of Authority. Instead of focusing on severing the connection he kept getting more agitated until he made a massive blunder that cost Kira her arm. Elijah therefore is a bitch. Learn to read.

1 & 2: Again, my entire point for that is the word disregard was not the term you originally used. Originally you said dispel, which has an entirely different meaning and implications to disregard in that situation and your assertion that Elijah could and was capable of "shrugging of shen's influence."

3. A. "Shen can make illusions alright, I don't argue against it."
Your entire point is that shen's illusions are based on memory and authority, and therefore follow rules and patterns those traits have shown so far.
B. "How a hole in one of it makes them something else?"
Because you of your assertion that "Authority doesn't get purged as long as you didn't find the exact application of it.".
C. "How Shen being weaker means anything else besides not being able to put Eli or Kira to sleep immediately?"
First you on memory, "I suspect that taking out someone's memories with this speed, precision and completeness will be almost impossible for someone stronger than MC and absolutely impractical for targets weaker."
Second Ella on using authority on a stronger superhuman, ""If that woman gets even a whiff of something unnatural, she'll figure you out in an instant and break free."

4. Being vulnerable to authority because of emotion is an assumption without evidence. Was Jared emotional when Jake took control over him? Was Alexis emotional when Jake managed get his powers to affect her?
In fact, it wasn't until Alexis was enraged and highly emotional that she broke free of the effect on her.

I sincerely hope you take your own advice going forward.

 

[sexoffended]

1 & 2: Again, my entire point for that is the word disregard was not the term you originally used. Originally you said dispel, which has an entirely different meaning and implications to disregard in that situation and your assertion that Elijah could and was capable of "shrugging of shen's influence."

3. A. "Shen can make illusions alright, I don't argue against it."
Your entire point is that shen's illusions are based on memory and authority, and therefore follow rules and patterns those traits have shown so far.
B. "How a hole in one of it makes them something else?"
Because you of your assertion that "Authority doesn't get purged as long as you didn't find the exact application of it.".
C. "How Shen being weaker means anything else besides not being able to put Eli or Kira to sleep immediately?"
First you on memory, "I suspect that taking out someone's memories with this speed, precision and completeness will be almost impossible for someone stronger than MC and absolutely impractical for targets weaker."
Second Ella on using authority on a stronger superhuman, ""If that woman gets even a whiff of something unnatural, she'll figure you out in an instant and break free."

4. Being vulnerable to authority because of emotion is an assumption without evidence. Was Jared emotional when Jake took control over him. Was Alexis emotional when Jake managed get his powers to affect her?
In fact, it wasn't until Alexis was enraged and highly emotional that she broke free of the effect on her.

I sincerely hope you take your own advice going forward.

1,2. Kira telling Eli to focus on Eisheth directly means to ignore illusions. That also means not bothering to dispel them. To disregard also means not to dispel in this context.

3. A: Mixed lineage - no contradiction.
B: Elijah instead of cutting the connection was arguing with Shen allowing him to transfer more energy. No contradiction.
C: I said that about PURE MEMORY TRAIT MC HAS.
Jake was manipulating lvl5 at lvl2. Shen is lvl4.
No contradiction.

4. Jake was emotional when issuing order to Jared, disrupting it. Alexis wasn't vigilant enough, allowing Jake to accumulate his power "hooks". No contradiction.

You can't read.

 

[myst0501]

1,2. Kira telling Eli to focus on Eisheth directly means to ignore illusions. That also means not bothering to dispel them. To disregard also means not to dispel in this context.

3. A: Mixed lineage - no contradiction.
B: Elijah instead of cutting the connection was arguing with Shen allowing him to transfer more energy. No contradiction.
C: I said that about PURE MEMORY TRAIT MC HAS.
Jake was manipulating lvl5 at lvl2. Shen is lvl4.
No contradiction.

4. Jake was emotional when issuing order to Jared, disrupting it. Alexis wasn't vigilant enough, allowing Jake to accumulate his power "hooks". No contradiction.

You can't read.

1 and 2: I'm not now and nor have I ever disputed the fact that Kira told Elijah to ignore the illusions, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up.
disregard = not dispel, is an assumption.

3A: Just stating mixed lineage means nothing.
3B: What does "allowing Shen to transfer more energy", have to do with your assertion that "Authority doesn't get purged as long as you didn't find the exact application of it." If we assume that Shen's powers are based on authority, it should have been immediately dispelled once he knew the "exact application of it."
3C: Why are you assuming all of these qualities for pure memory, and suggesting that now because its no longer pure those assumed qualities no longer apply? Shouldn't you also apply those same assumptions to authority while it is mixed in with memory as you suggest?

4. Jake failed to order jared around because he didn't believe in his own authority over him. We've still seen nothing to suggest being emotional equates to vulnerability to the authority trait.


me: Miraculously replies, in spite of a crippling and tragic inability to read.

 

[sexoffended]

1 and 2: I'm not now and nor have I ever disputed the fact that Kira told Elijah to ignore the illusions, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up.
disregard = not dispel, is an assumption.

3A: Just stating mixed lineage means nothing.
3B: What does "allowing Shen to transfer more energy", have to do with your assertion that "Authority doesn't get purged as long as you didn't find the exact application of it." If we assume that Shen's powers are based on authority, it should have been immediately dispelled once he knew the "exact application of it."
3C: Why are you assuming all of these qualities for pure memory, and suggesting that now because its no longer pure those assumed qualities no longer apply? Shouldn't you also apply those same assumptions to authority while it is mixed in with memory as you suggest?

4. Jake failed to order jared around because he didn't believe in his own authority over him. We've still seen nothing to suggest being emotional equates to vulnerability to the authority trait.


me: Miraculously replies, in spite of a crippling and tragic inability to read.

1,2. Choice A - to combat illusions and try to dispel them. Choice B - to ignore illusions and do something else. Those choices are mutually exclusive. 0 assumptions were made.

3. A,C: Mixes have powers different from pure lineages. Pure Memory was shown so far to be able to connect wielder to information within certain things and beings, read and in a limited way manifest it. For someone of 100% 4th line to manipulate memory with such skill, as to remove particular elements of specifically fresh memory with almost no delay, will be close to impossible.
Shen makes connection with target's mind (1st and 4th), finds memory-vulnerability (4th), makes target accept it as something within FOV (1st), or constuct a dream out of it (4th) and pushes target's mind into it (1st), or radiates his energy out of them to affect others (1st and 4th)

4, 3B. Mind control affects people differently based on their current state and overall mentality. It's not rocket science.

 

[Gtdead]

Memory component will explain:
Shen's ability to find weaknesses in people, channel his power through them, construct entire scenes for them to immerse.

Authority component will explain:
Shen's ability to make someone see memory as something present, keep targets in constructed sleep against their will, compound power of sleep with time, affect someone 1 lvl higher.

Your theory bases everything on dubious speculation of 10th being Illusion. Including the intel required for illusion to be effective.

I used Jake's Imprint and Demi's desire manipulation to prove that Demi has significant Authority lineage. Nothing else.
I used Demi's desire manipulation and scientific research to explain how her power can produce "illusions" and why they are different from person to person an unknown to Demi herself. That's because they are hallucinations produced individually under mind control. Dogs are irrelevant to this discussion because first we don't know and can't research their behaviour in this level of detail and second I used Jake's order to zombies as an example of Authority affecting seemingly mindless creatures.
Demi clearly has power with strong Authority component.

Shen's illusion is memory forced into hallucination by mind control. No new speculations introduced.

Shen doesn't need to find any weakness in people. This isn't what is happening here.
1. The humans -> Eisheth illusion was premeditated
2. The trick he used vs Elijah didn't require any specific knowledge, he already knew who Elijah is and he states that.
3. While MC is in the paths, there is no specific instance of MC getting any kind of crippling fear or negative emotion due to Shen's power despite Syla saying that she can't protect him.
4. Against the HERO agents in the Battle of Diamonds, he didn't use any specific knowledge taken from memory, he just overwhelmed him with visages of various monsters.

Basically Memory doesn't have anything at all to do with these effects. Shen creates the equivalent of a horror movie. He doesn't need to know something specific about the audience. He creates a scene and uses his power to do some kind of psychic damage.

I don't disagree that a different power, other than Illusion, can explain Shen's illusions.
1. Memory can potentially change perception in a way that makes humans and humanoid monsters intistinguisable.
2. Authority can potentially force someone to think that humanoid monsters and humans are the same thing.
3. Light can potentially create illusions. After all in real life, what humans understand as illusions some times are tricks of light and odd interactions with color.
4. Dark can potentially create illusions, mimicking things (not sure how, but sensory deprivation is part of the portfolio, like Valravn's Black Night attack stopping sound).

The problem is the scope:
Memory affects a specific target's perception.
Authority affects a specific target's behavior.

Every example you give in relation to these traits has to follow these principles because this is what Jake and MC respectively, have shown us.

I'm not disputing the reason why you brought up Jake. You don't need the Authority:Imprint ability to match him to Demi, her passive is more than enough as it's literally the exact same effect. When MC fights Clover, he has to hold back because Demi's power forces him to not harm her. This pretty much proves the Authority component.

However I'm insisting that Jake's powers affect only the chosen Target. So using him as an example points to Authority NOT working like either Shen's illusions or Demi's object charm.

We need a power that
a) Affects an object
b) Everyone's perception changes in relation to that object.

You claim that your argument about Shen is supposed to eliminate speculation. But this can't be true. Since we don't have an obvious mechanism for either Authority or Memory that matches both the effect we perceive, and the narrator's description. We are forced into speculation.

You obviously have an issue with having to attribute Shen's powers to an Apostle that we know nothing of and I can accept this, but I still disagree with your analysis at a very basic level and your argument is heavy speculation on Demi's powers. I also think that you are trying to fit the data to your theory and not the theory to data, as I've noticed that you take a lot of freedoms with certain scenes, as myst0501 pointed out. We should be able to agree at what the scene depicts, but we don't. It may be my fault, it may be yours. I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible and quote the narrator.

The basis of your argument as I understand it is:
1. Demi can affect an object in relation to a target.
2. Shen can affect an object in relation to a target.
3. Demi has part of the Authority trait because reasons.
4. Demi's charm object ability is part of Authority. <---------- This is where I disagree 100%, Demi has a mixed trait with some Authority
5. Due to 1 and 2, Shen is also part Authority.

Jake is the ultimate authority (no pun intended) on how the Authority trait works. If someone's power doesn't follow the same principles, then it's probably something else. Just because Demi, who has a mixed trait, has a partly similar ability, it doesn't mean that all her abilities come from the same trait. It only means that her power has an Authority component.

As long as the narrator asserts that Shen affects the humans and not the Superhumans, then the effect can't possibly be matched to neither Jake's Authority abilites, nor MC's Memory abilities. It can only be matched to Demi's.

There exist instances where the narrator isn't sure. This isn't one of these cases. We have to take it for granded.

Sorry for repeating myself over and over, but I need to drive that point of my argument.
Past that, we can agree to disagree. No problem with that.

 

[myst0501]

1,2. Choice A - to combat illusions and try to dispel them. Choice B - to ignore illusions and do something else. Those choices are mutually exclusive. 0 assumptions were made.

3. A,C: Mixes have powers different from pure lineages. Pure Memory was shown so far to be able to connect wielder to information within certain things and beings, read and in a limited way manifest it. For someone of 100% 4th line to manipulate memory with such skill, as to remove particular elements of specifically fresh memory with almost no delay, will be close to impossible.
Shen makes connection with target's mind (1st and 4th), finds memory-vulnerability (4th), makes target accept it as something within FOV (1st), or constuct a dream out of it (4th) and pushes target's mind into it (1st), or radiates his energy out of them to affect others (1st and 4th)

4, 3B. Mind control affects people differently based on their current state and overall mentality. It's not rocket science.

1+2: Your assumption is that choice A even exists.

3. Assumptions leading to an interesting theory. We know little to nothing about the differences between "mixes" and pure lineages. We really do not even know exactly what constitutes "pure" and "not pure".

4. "Mind control affects people differently based on their current state and overall mentality."
Do I even need to say it?
Also Jake, and in your theory's case Shen's, power isn't actually mind control, its authority. As I said before different words have different meanings and implications. Jake's authority can be applied to control minds, but that doesn't mean that is what defines authorities full capabilities and origin.

 

[sexoffended]

Shen doesn't need to find any weakness in people. This isn't what is happening here.
1. The humans -> Eisheth illusion was premeditated
2. The trick he used vs Elijah didn't require any specific knowledge, he already knew who Elijah is and he states that.
3. While MC is in the paths, there is no specific instance of MC getting any kind of crippling fear or negative emotion due to Shen's power despite Syla saying that she can't protect him.
4. Against the HERO agents in the Battle of Diamonds, he didn't use any specific knowledge taken from memory, he just overwhelmed him with visages of various monsters.

Basically Memory doesn't have anything at all to do with these effects. Shen creates the equivalent of a horror movie. He doesn't need to know something specific about the audience. He creates a scene and uses his power to do some kind of psychic damage.

I don't disagree that a different power, other than Illusion, can explain Shen's illusions.
1. Memory can potentially change perception in a way that makes humans and humanoid monsters intistinguisable.
2. Authority can potentially force someone to think that humanoid monsters and humans are the same thing.
3. Light can potentially create illusions. After all in real life, what humans understand as illusions some times are tricks of light and odd interactions with color.
4. Dark can potentially create illusions, mimicking things (not sure how, but sensory deprivation is part of the portfolio, like Valravn's Black Night attack stopping sound).

The problem is the scope:
Memory affects a specific target's perception.
Authority affects a specific target's behavior.

Every example you give in relation to these traits has to follow these principles because this is what Jake and MC respectively, have shown us.

I'm not disputing the reason why you brought up Jake. You don't need the Authority:Imprint ability to match him to Demi, her passive is more than enough as it's literally the exact same effect. When MC fights Clover, he has to hold back because Demi's power forces him to not harm her. This pretty much proves the Authority component.

However I'm insisting that Jake's powers affect only the chosen Target. So using him as an example points to Authority NOT working like either Shen's illusions or Demi's object charm.

We need a power that
a) Affects an object
b) Everyone's perception changes in relation to that object.

You claim that your argument about Shen is supposed to eliminate speculation. But this can't be true. Since we don't have an obvious mechanism for either Authority or Memory that matches both the effect we perceive, and the narrator's description. We are forced into speculation.

You obviously have an issue with having to attribute Shen's powers to an Apostle that we know nothing of and I can accept this, but I still disagree with your analysis at a very basic level and your argument is heavy speculation on Demi's powers. I also think that you are trying to fit the data to your theory and not the theory to data, as I've noticed that you take a lot of freedoms with certain scenes, as myst0501 pointed out. We should be able to agree at what the scene depicts, but we don't. It may be my fault, it may be yours. I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible and quote the narrator.

The basis of your argument as I understand it is:
1. Demi can affect an object in relation to a target.
2. Shen can affect an object in relation to a target.
3. Demi has part of the Authority trait because reasons.
4. Demi's charm object ability is part of Authority. <---------- This is where I disagree 100%, Demi has a mixed trait with some Authority
5. Due to 1 and 2, Shen is also part Authority.

Jake is the ultimate authority (no pun intended) on how the Authority trait works. If someone's power doesn't follow the same principles, then it's probably something else. Just because Demi, who has a mixed trait, has a partly similar ability, it doesn't mean that all her abilities come from the same trait. It only means that her power has an Authority component.

As long as the narrator asserts that Shen affects the humans and not the Superhumans, then the effect can't possibly be matched to neither Jake's Authority abilites, nor MC's Memory abilities. It can only be matched to Demi's.

There exist instances where the narrator isn't sure. This isn't one of these cases. We have to take it for granded.

Sorry for repeating myself over and over, but I need to drive that point of my argument.
Past that, we can agree to disagree. No problem with that.

Great analysis. You suspect Demi has lieage of 10th, and very significant one, based on object interaction.
I also think that Demi is mixed, but inclusions are minor because everything aside from anchored attraction is in my opinion explained fully by Authority.

I suspect that this minor lineage is Light. Tiffany's light was described as refreshing, calming and magnetic. We also have Angelina, presumed 3rd + 8th who can make milk with universally attractive aroma. This makes me think that this is the key behind focus on visuals and attraction.

 

[KKStrider]

As far as I could tell, we've never actually seen someone dispel Shen's illusions other than the forced dream state. The only exception to this appears to be whatever Eisheth did to Shen back during the S.I.N. infiltration via her own powers allowing reality manipulation.

Elijah never even attempted to dispel Shen's illusions, nor did he at any point ever get close to doing so. I'm not even certain they can be dispelled without specific powers or Shen personally doing it. The flickering that resulted in Elijah noticing they were illusions was likely a failure on Shen's part caused by Elijah turning around at an unexpected time, not Elijah dissipating them or overcoming them. It's absolutely true he was acting emotional and failed to use his ability to sense Monster Power properly during the fight, but I strongly doubt that had any effect on the strength of the illusions, just his ability to discern what was hidden behind them.

 

[Gtdead]

Great analysis. You suspect Demi has lieage of 10th, and very significant one, based on object interaction.
I also think that Demi is mixed, but inclusions are minor because everything aside from anchored attraction is in my opinion explained fully by Authority.

I suspect that this minor lineage is Light. Tiffany's light was described as refreshing, calming and magnetic. We also have Angelina, presumed 3rd + 8th who can make milk with universally attractive aroma. This makes me think that this is the key behind focus on visuals and attraction.

The Light idea for Demi is the one I supported a few months back. Truthfully I didn't like it that much because it's something that Tiffany doesn't really seem capable of doing, but at this point it was the best I could do and scientifically it fits.

My general dislike of that idea and the difficulty I have in applying it to Shen's power is part of why I like the prospect of the 10th being about Illusions. It's also a logical counterpart to Truth, even if not exactly perfect.

 

[sexoffended]

As far as I could tell, we've never actually seen someone dispel Shen's illusions other than the forced dream state. The only exception to this appears to be whatever Eisheth did to Shen back during the S.I.N. infiltration via her own powers allowing reality manipulation.

Elijah never even attempted to dispel Shen's illusions, nor did he at any point ever get close to doing so. I'm not even certain they can be dispelled without specific powers or Shen personally doing it. The flickering that resulted in Elijah noticing they were illusions was likely a failure on Shen's part caused by Elijah turning around at an unexpected time, not Elijah dissipating them or overcoming them. It's absolutely true he was acting emotional and failed to use his ability to sense Monster Power properly during the fight, but I strongly doubt that had any effect on the strength of the illusions, just his ability to discern what was hidden behind them.

Elijah started seeing Argils through the illusion once he realised what was happening. And Authority gets more powerful after each success. That's partially why Shen started shit-talking and biding time.

 

[sexoffended]

The Light idea for Demi is the one I supported a few months back. Truthfully I didn't like it that much because it's something that Tiffany doesn't really seem capable of doing, but at this point it was the best I could do and scientifically it fits.

My general dislike of that idea and the difficulty I have in applying it to Shen's power is part of why I like the prospect of the 10th being about Illusions. It's also a logical counterpart to Truth, even if not exactly perfect.

I find Charlie's and Shopkeep's ability to manipulate beings and events who've overstepped certain predefined limits (like deal or vow) anywhere a better antagonism for materialization/concept imposition over an area/object.

Theory of 10th being Illusion kinda streches over a bunch of stuff with better in my opinion explanation.

 

[Gtdead]

1+2: Your assumption is that choice A even exists.

3. Assumptions leading to an interesting theory. We know little to nothing about the differences between "mixes" and pure lineages. We really do not even know exactly what constitutes "pure" and "not pure".

4. "Mind control affects people differently based on their current state and overall mentality."
Do I even need to say it?
Also Jake, and in your theory's case Shen's, power isn't actually mind control, its authority. As I said before different words have different meanings and implications. Jake's authority can be applied to control minds, but that doesn't mean that is what defines authorities full capabilities and origin.

This is very true. Jake can also empower people to perform various tasks. He can ask people to heal, to give their all to complete a task. These are examples we can observe in game. In fact I'm starting to think that Authority is one of the best traits for buffing and empowering the masses.

The Authority trait makes someone the ultimate leader. What happens if someone who has great affinity for leadership inherits that trait? What if someone's will happens anyway, without the use of the trait?

 

[KKStrider]

Elijah started seeing Argils through the illusion once he realised what was happening. And Authority gets more powerful after each success. That's partially why Shen started shit-talking and biding time.

No he didn't. That flicker was the only instance of Elijah spotting the Argils, and it only happened because it moved to 'kill' a fake human. He then moves in, straight up bloody touches one and even though it physically feels like rock and he's literally staring at it the illusion still holds. The Argils don't even appear again after that scene, so I have no clue just how you came to that conclusion.

Edit: specifically, spotting the argils through the illusion.

 

[Deleted member 4876496]

how do you get the scene with danica?

 

[sexoffended]

This is very true. Jake can also empower people to perform various tasks. He can ask people to heal, to give their all to complete a task. These are examples we can observe in game. In fact I'm starting to think that Authority is one of the best traits for buffing and empowering the masses.

The Authority trait makes someone the ultimate leader. What happens if someone who has great affinity for leadership inherits that trait? What if someone's will happens anyway, without the use of the trait?

When did Jake heal someone?

 

[Gtdead]

When did Jake heal someone?

I don't mean heal in the classic videogame sense where you restore hit points.

He asked someone to heal. In particular he asked Mia to remember. It didn't exactly work but it falls within the purview of positive reinforcement. It shows the range of what can be done with this power.

If he can ask Mia to remember, perhaps he can also ask someone to survive, ignore injures, heal wounds, heal mental issues or mental powers etc.

 

[sexoffended]

I don't mean heal in the classic videogame sense where you restore hit points.

He asked someone to heal. In particular he asked Mia to remember. It didn't exactly work but it falls within the purview of positive reinforcement. It shows the range of what can be done with this power.

If he can ask Mia to remember, perhaps he can also ask someone to survive, ignore injures, heal wounds, heal mental issues or mental powers etc.

Ohhoho
Jake asked Mia to remember EVERYTHING.
Not only it's an order close in magnitude to the one that put her in hospital bed, but he also made her remember the pain she felt.
Her fractured memories were collected together by Memory Echo with Jake's memories as a template. To be precise Jake did nothing to heal her. He couldn't even unfuck her mind properly.

 

[sexoffended]

Shen can access other's memories and he makes his dreams based around this info.

 

[Windfaker]

The devs who already had the plot In heads and know who Is who and what happen reading walls of illuminati text.

View attachment Risitas.mov.mp4

 

[DrakoGhoul]

how do you get the scene with danica?

Since no one answered you, I'll help you. If you mean the dream sequence, go to sleep in class at HERO, after the Valravn fight. It doesn't matter if she's dead or not, you'll get it with a slight variation. If you mean with her in the shower, you just have to spare her and go on the B Rank hunt for the M72 Gorgon. There, she'll be Level 3 and help MC kill it. There's no sex scene yet, just them taking a shower together.

Hope that helps.