VN Ren'Py Superhuman [v0.99999b] [WeirdWorld]

[Acanthite]

if the theory that reaching level 5 without outside influence leads to greatest potential is cannon ( which I'm not sure about ), then the Mc already fibbed it no ? Because back in the Battle Of Diamonds he evolved by being exposed to monster blood, Xanthe himself says that was kind of in the same vein as how his serum works. Or am I remembering it wrong ?

Not necessarily. It's a little muddier with MC. His level 3 was similar to taking the serum as explained by Xanthe, but it was also a direct result of his victory over Deryl's giant chimera form. It's somewhat plain that naturally reaching the 5th evolution is about specific, unique achievements and for all we know that could've been one of them. I mostly suspect there's a difference in result because of Henri's chained evolutions. It doesn't sound like he was given much choice about it, it was just something that he had to survive while he evolved as fast as his body could tolerate.

I think that means there's something special about meeting the requirements. Michael for instance sounded very much like he'd be getting more out of his evolutions by passing the trials set by the Second. And he even vowed to the Second that he'd still manage to surpass its expectations. There's SOMETHING different about it and Ella's failure to get a trait from Memory is the perfect example. That said yeah we don't know for sure if that difference is especially meaningful because we have so few examples and the ones that are still alive were freakishly powerful before 5 anyway. But the drama of it is more what I meant by what I said. Not only meeting the requirements, but the danger of the evolution itself when it occurs naturally. It'd be way more hype for the story than to take the serum.

With Ella, her failed trial iirc wasn't even from Body, she failed a trial from Memory to earn her trait right? So if I'm remembering that correctly we do know for sure that completing the trials/requirements can earn tangible benefits. And if I'm correct it would also mean a big part of the reason the requirements are so rarely met is because goals can be set by other Apostles that a spawn won't be able to connect to normally. Which then has EVEN MORE implications for our two sets of Twins. It's no surprise that with Body and Memory being so chummy that they would require their spawn to inherit a trait from the other, while with Devana and Evander it wouldn't come as any surprise that they probably both need to meet the requirements simultaneously (this is in theory, since it's almost a given they'll be getting the serum). With Liz and Amber it starts getting weird as hell cuz even their second evolution seems to require something no one understands, and the Great Ocean isn't an Apostle at all so what will their evolutions even be? What will they connect to in their trance if they have one? This shit is why I love this story so much.

I'd almost be willing to bet MC will take the serum for level 4 just because he's not evolving and HERO needs the extra firepower ASAP. It won't matter how much potential his 5th evo has if he dies at level 3 type logic. I think Xanthe would rather MC be alive and still have the same snowball's chance in hell Malik and Bernhardt had. Not that I think it's especially likely to come down to that, but it's an interesting possibility. It would also put a very interesting spin on MC's relationship with Nico.

It is unlikely that the MC will get the serum right after evolving. I forget if it was said in game or on a stream but you have to be "ready" to evolve again, which most likely takes days to weeks, or risk failing.

Oh yeah I know. I meant he'd still have to keep impressing Xanthe to get the serum sooner than later since Xanthe gives it out pretty slowly. He's been very impressed with MC so far so MC is probably on the shortlist for it. But even Nico had to wait a while and she's bordering on being as important to HERO as Zack. Alexis and Clark getting it before Nico was dramatic for a showdown against Ella, but it's almost certainly just one of those early writing choices that doesn't quite mesh well with how the story has developed since.

 

[kazuan]

There is. Since Superhumans are constantly adapting to both the power and their surroundings and thus to how they use their power, it stands to reason that you can screw up your progress, like Ella did.
We are not sure of the exact mechanism, but with the trials, there seems to be a 'right' path and while that doesn't necessitate a 'wrong' path, it implies that Superhumans can adapt in ways their ancestors would find undesirable.
It's especially the talk that Superhumans have the potential to outgrow their monster parent. To me all of that is just a lot of implications to talk around the actual situation.

With Ella specifically we have 2 reasonable guesses on how she "screwed up". First being the failed ritual during the school massacre and second by simply not being chosen by the Eye. Though the second one is more of a guess than the first.

But back to the main topic: None of what you mentioned really effects the serum since it's just a refined version of a known way to force evolution, just like how the MC almost forced an evolution at level 1 when he tried to see how big he could grow. The main probable ways to "screw up your progress" is either to fail trials or possibly go against your intended purpose. But considering the 3 Captains the latter may not be a factor or they shouldn't have become as powerful as they are.
In fact the trials and power progression for each superhuman may be outside of the Apostles control, they just know what needs to be done to pass the trials and if you have someone else (like Henri) who can tell you what your trials are then the Apostles input is no longer needed.
The word "trial" may just be a misnomer, they are only called that because they are usually tasks given by the Apostles and what they are actually just ways to progress your power that may be unintuitive, like how the MC needed to learn to shapeshift objects or make metal. Michael absorbing a planets worth of heat probably isn't something he would normally think to do for example.

As for potential to outgrow your monster parent: That may or may not include Apsotles. I say may because the 7th/Darkness/Lord of Dark seem to have "usurped" the title. In any other cases, well monsters can't really get stronger outside of rare mutations where a superhuman at level 3 and up have a theoretically limitless power ceiling as far as we know.

Yeah, but as she herslef said, everyone searching for their own ways to empower themselves, rather than just keep gaining power via training is the way to go, the Captains most definitely did that on a way that would make sense for their powers, MC is doing that too, eating memories and samples of powerful monsters to keep improving his body and transformations, he's on the right path, but given how 'easy' is for him to diverge in path thanks to the nature of his powers, I suspect that he need to go to a larger extreme to branch his powers in the manner the Captains and Nico did. I mean, Nyx has a ton of differences with the Monster that is suspected to be her Sire, Lucius is confirmed to have warped his powers in some way thanks to corruption, and finally Malik has a sixth sense to tell if a Monster has killed a human or not, despite being mainly a Pyromancer.

Based on a early-ish conversation with The Eye it may be either eating as many strong people as possible or forming as many bonds with people as possible.

Oh yeah I know. I meant he'd still have to keep impressing Xanthe to get the serum sooner than later since Xanthe gives it out pretty slowly. He's been very impressed with MC so far so MC is probably on the shortlist for it. But even Nico had to wait a while and she's bordering on being as important to HERO as Zack. Alexis and Clark getting it before Nico was dramatic for a showdown against Ella, but it's almost certainly just one of those early writing choices that doesn't quite mesh well with how the story has developed since.

There is a decent in-universe reason for it I can see: Nico (and her power) is practically unreplaceable and core to HERO operation while the "Do Nothing Duo" is... Not. Alexis and Clark getting the finished prototype, as an emergency plan when going after Ella, before the designated chauffeur of HERO is a solid enough reason.
Though Clark really has been putting the work in lately, without him it would probably be much harder if not practically unfeasible to hit monster worlds like Malik and Bernhardt is doing.

 

[Acanthite]

Based on a early-ish conversation with The Eye it may be either eating as many strong people as possible or forming as many bonds with people as possible.

Tiffanny Love Point stonks are going up if the latter is true.

There is a decent in-universe reason for it I can see: Nico (and her power) is practically unreplaceable and core to HERO operation while the "Do Nothing Duo" is... Not. Alexis and Clark getting the finished prototype, as an emergency plan when going after Ella, before the designated chauffeur of HERO is a solid enough reason.
Though Clark really has been putting the work in lately, without him it would probably be much harder if not practically unfeasible to hit monster worlds like Malik and Bernhardt is doing.

You know what, that does make a ton of sense. Fair enough. I take back saying it doesn't mesh well.

 

[kazuan]

Based on a early-ish conversation with The Eye it may be either eating as many strong people as possible or forming as many bonds with people as possible.

Actually I just remembered more of this, the Eye asked the MC what he wanted and "Power" and "Love" I think were options. If you answered Power it tells you to eat and if you answer Love it just says that such things doesn't come easy to "us" or something along those lines.

So eating people is still likely one of those alternate ways but bonds may not be. Though for a Memory based trial/way it makes some sense, if Syla is any indication.

 

[Ray_D]

Logic aside.......pretty sick burn...
It's actually so true; we can't all live up to such high aspirations as the official tour guide of all things AVN
A legacy your grandkids will brag about.

Don't exaggerate so much, man, we're talking about WW, not Ocean. At least with WW we'll see an ending next year, with the other one we'll never see anything.

 

[as22]

Klaus as if he were from a 90's anime:

View attachment beam2.mp4

You know what, that does make a ton of sense. Fair enough. I take back saying it doesn't mesh well.

Don't listen to him. The theorycrafting in this thread gets a little too schitzo at times. People make up all these fantastical theories as if they were true, and then those theories are just accepted and run with by others as more people just make up more theories on top.

For example in 2023 people were certain that Aglaecwif monster line was the 4th, and everyone just ran with that:

Aglaecwif being a descendant of the 4th is in game though. The problem is you have to translate the language she was talking in to find it lol. I believe Vogol used ChatGPT to translate it from some old English or something. She mentions the 4th being "our Lord" vs if you're the 3rd's spawn, it changes. That's on top of her using the Memory Trait on the MC. It's honestly not crazy, you just have to be curious enough to look for the clues.

 

[as22]

With Ella, her failed trial iirc wasn't even from Body, she failed a trial from Memory to earn her trait right? So if I'm

What? We know nothing of what Ella went through, nor what her trial was about.

 

[TheShelly]

Klaus as if he were from a 90's anime:

View attachment 5407010

















Don't listen to him. The theorycrafting in this thread gets a little too schitzo at times. People make up all these fantastical theories as if they were true, and then those theories are just accepted and run with by others as more people just make up more theories on top.

For example in 2023 people were certain that Aglaecwif monster line was the 4th, and everyone just ran with that:

To be fair to Drako, that part of Aglaecwif's dialogue was later changed/retconned, during a time when WW was making Memory more distinct and changing how other powers could affect memories, like Jake originally being able to screw with someone's memory directly. It was a reasonable conclusion to draw back then.

 

[as22]

To be fair to Drako, that part of Aglaecwif's dialogue was later changed/retconned, during a time when WW was making Memory more distinct and changing how other powers could affect memories, like Jake originally being able to screw with someone's memory directly. It was a reasonable conclusion to draw back then.

What else was changed?
I also hope WW adds in the updated papyrus TTF file to subsequent versions that A fleeting presence made that fixes the missing glyphs. It's hard to read the Aglaecwif's dialogue with the non displaying characters.

I can't believe he still hasn't done it.

 

[DrakoGhoul]

Klaus as if he were from a 90's anime:

View attachment 5407010
















Don't listen to him. The theorycrafting in this thread gets a little too schitzo at times. People make up all these fantastical theories as if they were true, and then those theories are just accepted and run with by others as more people just make up more theories on top.

For example in 2023 people were certain that Aglaecwif monster line was the 4th, and everyone just ran with that:

Everyone "ran with it" because that was the translation until WW changed it completely with Syla introduction into the game. And to be frank, I'm almost positive that I questioned it a bit earlier on myself before locking into it.

 

[Chris20]

Klaus as if he were from a 90's anime:

View attachment 5407010
















The 90s aesthetics were peak

 

[obibobi]

Dismissing in-universe mechanics because of its out of universe/narrative mechanic is a massive cop out and cheapens the story. Superhuman sterility haven't had much in-universe weight since they have had to focus more on short term goals, but the MC overcoming that issue would be a huge deal.
Yes the dissolving aspect is a comparatively tiny issue for the MC/Ella specifically but I believe it was last update that MC said he had tried to make a doll like Ella but failed. I don't think WW would have included that if it didn't have at least some narrative reason and the fertility topic could be one reason.

I'm not dismissing it, I am pointing out fan tendecies to over analyse things and expect writers the address nitpicks.The MC can already potentially both impregnate and get pregnant. The story is already on my side so its absurd people think we need explanations for something so mundane.

There is huge fucking difference between the MC doing something that is completely normal and creating magical sentient copies of himself.

 

[Grimnir098]

What else was changed?
I also hope WW adds in the updated papyrus TTF file to subsequent versions that A fleeting presence made that fixes the missing glyphs. It's hard to read the Aglaecwif's dialogue with the non displaying characters.

I can't believe he still hasn't done it.

Probably because it isn't a big deal. You're not meant to be able to understand Aglaecwif's Old English dialogue. If you were, WW would include a translation.

 

[Acanthite]

What? We know nothing of what Ella went through, nor what her trial was about.

We know A LOT about it. MC witnesses it directly through the 4th Apostle's own memory of it when he and Christie investigate the school it happened at, gained from a cracked vial of fluid that forcibly establishes a strong connection between MC and the 4th on contact. We get to see Ella's trance after drinking from that same vial and Memory's reaction to her refusal to kill Christie. The trial involved killing everyone present at a school event, including Christie, and was failed when Ella took control of her trance and spared her best friend.

Not everything I said before is explicit in the narrative, but everything I said (and more) can be inferred from the information we do have. This includes that the trial was extremely important for Ella AND the 3rd and 4th, that Ella up to that point had even more direct guidance through her evolutions from the 3rd and 4th than Michael has from the 2nd now, and that despite that guidance Ella had to resort to stealing serum from HERO to reach her 5th after being in stuck in her 4th for a while. We also know that Ella needed a trait from Memory for something and failed to get it which is the entire reason she mentions that she's considered a failure.

We also glean from it that even though Memory in particular is temperamental about things not going perfectly, it still kept working directly with Ella afterward anyway just as it continues to support MC despite him not being a pure 50/50. It did not extend that same support to Syla when she got tainted by other shit which is its own implication that Ella and MC are more important to Memory's plans now than its own Chosen was.

I'll have to go back and replay the section to really be 100% certain but I'm fairly confident I got all this right.

 

[Zolrazz]

I was here thinking, wondering what kind of thing could happen to prevent the MC from getting the serum after reaching level 4. The serum could be destroyed by S.I.N. in a stealth invasion; Bramon could be killed; or we could be kidnapped. Many things could be used to prevent the MC from reaching level 5 right after achieving his evolution, but then I thought of something simpler, no, simply, no, the Eye could very well warn the protagonist not to use the serum, giving him a choice but still warning him that they are not ready yet
That's the kind of thing that usually happens

 

[Skidables]

I was here thinking, wondering what kind of thing could happen to prevent the MC from getting the serum after reaching level 4. The serum could be destroyed by S.I.N. in a stealth invasion; Bramon could be killed; or we could be kidnapped. Many things could be used to prevent the MC from reaching level 5 right after achieving his evolution, but then I thought of something simpler, no, simply, no, the Eye could very well warn the protagonist not to use the serum, giving him a choice but still warning him that they are not ready yet
That's the kind of thing that usually happens

WW already commented on this, MC cannot use the serum right after he hits level 4 because he needs to control his powers or he would turn into a monster or something. So he needs training and such on new powers. He accounted for people thinking he can use serum right away will take a while. Positive, this is a way for MC not to use serum at all.

 

[KingAgamemnon]

What else was changed?
I also hope WW adds in the updated papyrus TTF file to subsequent versions that A fleeting presence made that fixes the missing glyphs. It's hard to read the Aglaecwif's dialogue with the non displaying characters.

I can't believe he still hasn't done it.

He said he doesn't want to because the broken characters make the text seem otherworldly. I think it's bullshit, but it is what it is.

 

[as22]

He said he doesn't want to because the broken characters make the text seem otherworldly. I think it's bullshit, but it is what it is.

Well there you have it.
Was this on stream?

 

[KingAgamemnon]

Well there you have it.
Was this on stream?

Yeah, i asked him a while ago. Forget when it was.

 

[kazuan]

Don't listen to him. The theorycrafting in this thread gets a little too schitzo at times. People make up all these fantastical theories as if they were true, and then those theories are just accepted and run with by others as more people just make up more theories on top.

I didn't intend to present it as fact, Acanthite mentioned what he believed to be a narrative inconsistency due to it being from the early game and I made up a plausible explanation for why it could still be consistent. I'm curious why it provoked this kind of response when even my "Indra isn't a Greater Spawn" wild theory didn't get called schizo theory crafting.

I'm not dismissing it, I am pointing out fan tendecies to over analyse things and expect writers the address nitpicks.The MC can already potentially both impregnate and get pregnant. The story is already on my side so its absurd people think we need explanations for something so mundane.

There is huge fucking difference between the MC doing something that is completely normal and creating magical sentient copies of himself.

MC related pregnancy has exclusively been with monsters, who are already established to be able to reproduce with humans, superhumans (and probably animals) already. Intra-Superhuman reproduction has enough narrative weight for a "cure" not be considered a nitpick even if it only the MC can do it. Especially with the background issues of superhuman superiority while reliant on humans for "reproduction", humans mistrust of superhuman and possible human extinction.
I also don't believe the MC was trying and failing at creating a sentient copy, since Ellas doll required vials containing liquids from the 3rd and 4th Apostles. I believe he was failing at making the doll/item simply last after being disconnected from himself.

I guess the main thing we disagree on is how much weight the story should place on the issue or if it really is worth bringing up in the first place. Yes it's mostly just a background thing ment to facilitate large amount of risk free sex but looking at it with a wider scope the implications become huge. Aos even brought it up when he described how his people basically threw their future away by making more superhuman soldiers without leaving a sky-human population large enough to reproduce, so even a victory would have ment extinction.

That all said at this point it's not a matter of convincing each other and we both know our stances on the matter, so unless there is something further you would like to add I'd considered this conversation to have ran it's course.

We also glean from it that even though Memory in particular is temperamental about things not going perfectly, it still kept working directly with Ella afterward anyway just as it continues to support MC despite him not being a pure 50/50. It did not extend that same support to Syla when she got tainted by other shit which is its own implication that Ella and MC are more important to Memory's plans now than its own Chosen was.

Assuming the 3rd/4th are working on bringing back The Eye, it's possible Ella and Syla got different treatment because their given objectives were different. Ella may have been considered a candidate for The Eye or failing that ment to find a candidate, her failing the ritual could have just resigned her to the second option. Or a hidden third option with Memory stating Ella was "Still good for breeding".
Syla on the other hand might have been ment to create a candidate considering she was (supposed to be) a pure Memory spawn and was immediately and strongly attracted to Stephen who Syla said had pure Body compatibility. Her being tainted would thereby make her a abject failure in Memory eyes, at least assuming it happened before she became human again.