yilkin

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TheArchmage-0.0.6a
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Oct 31, 2017
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I'm somewhat surprised to see this get some work, since it's been well over a year now. I know last your primary focus was on developing gameplay systems for "The Monastery" portion of the game - is that still in progress or do you expect to focus more on "The Archmage" and its writing now?

Still, I recall my interest in it before so I'm happy that it's not dead.

I didn't read through it super carefully and as a result I may have overlooked something or made an error (I'll update if I do and notice anything else), but my thoughts on the current version:

Firstly, I'm mixed on the Prelude. It's an interesting enough bit, but the bigger deal is that it provides quite a lot of backstory information to the reader - information that the MC does not have. This desyncs the conclusions that the two can reach throughout the course of the story, leading to the reader making choices the MC reasonably could not, or the MC not taking actions the reader reasonably would. In a game where the reader is largely supposed to become their character and make their character's decisions, I don't think this a good addition.

Somewhat in that vein, I see you changed the game to be entirely in third person. While I am the one who recommended a nameable character, I don't actually think this is advantageous here as it further disconnects the reader from their character. Specifically what I meant when I said "it eventually starts to feel odd only being referred to as 'you'" was that other characters never referred to you by name, so being able to name yourself and allow them to do that would be a step up. I actually think referring to the reader as though they are their character is better, both for the player and you as the author.

My personal recommendations for this based on my assumptions,
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I see you added a good amount to the introduction of the story, defining the family and their situation to a greater extent. I appreciate that, though I'm not a terribly huge fan of the intro here for a few reasons:

The setting at the opening is the MC scavenging in a junkyard for items to sell with the goal of assisting their family's financial situation. I could understand this if they were a few years younger, but for legal reasons, they're just a few hours shy of 18 at this point...wouldn't it be more effective to...get a job?

The junkyard mostly seems to be a setup for finding the necklace. The necklace is shown to switch between blue and red shortly before it sinks into the MC. We can assume then that the red and blue affinities the MC possesses are a result of the necklace, presumably because it houses Hemera and Achlys. My question here is primarily...why is such a clearly important artifact sitting in a junkyard? Especially if the two voices spoken about in the prelude are also Hemera and Achlys - did they just flush Dagon's body out the back after he ate Percy and it somehow ended up there?

I also think the necklace contrasts with the Grandfather's box - which talks about the balance of powers, and I'd expect that to largely be the balance of powers between the two goddesses inside you. I'm not entirely sure to what extent you have rewritten the prior content, but "From it, you have obtained a great power that no other will truly comprehend." seems to imply you received something from the box...when at the same time it seems to be from the necklace. It can't merely be Vitality transforming you from a Blind, since plenty of Magi are going to be able to comprehend that. Of course, there's also the bit about they key, so we're set to receive something else eventually, but to speculate what "You must become whole." is a bit much, though I'd expect it either means merging with Hemera/Achlys or merging those two together with yourself.

Of course, I could be interpretting all of this incorrectly and you have a distinct plan for each of these elements, but right now it seems the power could either be coming from a necklace you just happened to pick up or from the magical box your mysterious grandfather left you. Frankly, I'm liking the second more.

My personal recommendations for this based on my assumptions,
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The bulk of the story between arriving at The Monastery and becoming a Charmer seems to be similar to what it was previously, so my thoughts there are almost exactly the same as they were in my prior post on page 12 - mostly that the MC is inconsistent and not given the agency to ask questions they should. What I will say is that it felt a bit more rushed than I recall, I think this was due to changes that happened with the perspective rewrite but I may be remembering wrong. I also do not remember Hemera and Achlys speaking to you so much, I believe their first appearance before was when casting "Water Bullet". I liked that a bit more, their increased presence makes them seem far less mysterious, being a bit too familiar for this early on.

My personal recommendations for this based on my assumptions,
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Moving on to the Charmer introduction - if I'm not mistaken, Hemera and Achlys are referred to as "goddesses" within the text, though this may also just be the MC's assumption. The religious thing combined with that however is sketchy as Hell. The presence of "God" with a glowing light beneath her hood makes me feel like I'm about to get scammed by a cult. Those are my instincts at least, I cannot speculate where you're going with that and it isn't really a bad thing, I just mention it because I'm not sure what impression you're trying to give - but my impression is that they are an enemy and I need protection. I think one of the biggest reasons the religious vibe feels so odd to me is that it doesn't really seem to fit with the rest very well. We have ranks of "Apprentice", "Charmer", "Sorcerer"...these all feel distinctly, classically magical, not religious such as "Priest" or "Bishop". It's also the case that I would not expect those who research and learn about magic, a discipline that I presume requires constant questioning, to be so unquestioning about any one being as to call them "God" - I prefer the idea of it being a more classical magic college. Again though, it's not necessarily bad, just very different, but do keep in mind the automatic associations readers will likely have with this words given other media and how you want to overcome that. Overall, I think this section is mostly well-written if definitely sped through.

Side note here, have you ever read the "Zombie Fallout" series by Mark Tufo? There's a scene where, following the apocalypse, they stumble upon a community led by a blessed man who judges people by touching their chest, wherein they feel an electric shock. Of course, he ends up being a sham and the electric shocks come from tasers hidden in his gloves. "God"'s introduction reminded me very much of this.

My personal recommendations for this based on my assumptions,
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Additionally, a small bit regarding how Hemera and Achlys are handled,
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Alright, that's a pretty good summation of my thoughts of the current version. Tying things up, there are a lot of misgendering issues if you play a female (and presumably "other") character, I've collected the lines I noticed in the spoiler below for your convenience, though there are likely more.

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There's also this rather awkward line, "'Why did one of the marks disappear?' He pulled up the other sleeve. 'Only one arm is discolored now. What happened?'" Now, I honestly feel like I may have had a stroke when reading through that part so this may be ENTIRELY on me, but I don't think it mentioned pulling up the first sleeve, so this was weird to read. Additionally, stating the "arm" is discolored, when I think he means the brands on your arms, makes me think my character is walking around with one white arm and one yellow. Actually, this may be on me as well, but I didn't realize the "brand" he placed was actually two brands, one on each arm.

Edit (There are a few other things I wanted to mention but forgot while typing this up at roughly 4-5 a.m.):
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As before, my statements are meant entirely in the best possible light. I recognize I tend to be quite haughty with my assertions and that they may not reflect what you want as the creator, so I hope you take them as the constructive criticisms they are intended to be. I've done my best to include my reasoning for my thoughts to that end. Magic and lewdness are two of my favorite things, so I wish to see this be as good as it possibly can.

That said, I will still make a haughty and somewhat blunt statement: I think I liked the version I played last year more.
 
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BlackDahliaStudios

Member
Game Developer
Nov 18, 2020
329
510
I know last your primary focus was on developing gameplay systems for "The Monastery" portion of the game - is that still in progress or do you expect to focus more on "The Archmage" and its writing now?
I'm only working on The Archmage moving forward.

I didn't read through it super carefully and as a result I may have overlooked something or made an error.
You effectively provided me with a free editing service, so no sweat. :)

Firstly, I'm mixed on the Prelude. It's an interesting enough bit, but the bigger deal is that it provides quite a lot of backstory information to the reader - information that the MC does not have. This desyncs the conclusions that the two can reach throughout the course of the story, leading to the reader making choices the MC reasonably could not, or the MC not taking actions the reader reasonably would. In a game where the reader is largely supposed to become their character and make their character's decisions, I don't think this a good addition.
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Somewhat in that vein, I see you changed the game to be entirely in third person. While I am the one who recommended a nameable character, I don't actually think this is advantageous here as it further disconnects the reader from their character. Specifically what I meant when I said "it eventually starts to feel odd only being referred to as 'you'" was that other characters never referred to you by name, so being able to name yourself and allow them to do that would be a step up. I actually think referring to the reader as though they are their character is better, both for the player and you as the author.
I ask that the players bear with me on this and give it a fair shake. I realize this choice is awkward given the state of the interactive fiction market, however it is the standard in market fiction and I plan to publish (or attempt to anyway) the narrative after the game is finished. It is awkward to desync the MC and the reader, maybe even immersion breaking for some. Hopefully, I can toe the line of embracing that awkwardness without completely breaking immersion.
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I would go back to the previous perspective as it serves better for the player to insert themselves, and better for you as the author to maintain the knowledge that the player should be in control of their character. Keep the character naming though as it provides an identity to them for other characters to use. If you really want to include the prelude information at the beginning of the game, I think it should be a vision forced upon the MC when they open the box, that way the information available to them is equal to the reader, but it doesn't really mean anything to either, still inviting speculation and critical thinking.
Moving the prelude later into the story is an interesting idea. Foreshadowing and tone-setting was my goal with including it. Would moving it affect that? Would it make the initiating event (opening the box) more powerful? Or would it distract from it? I'm not sure. I would also have to think about the mechanics of how MC receives that vision. It may not make sense with the rules of the magic system (it would also change grandfather's character actions and knowledge/motivations). I'll have to really think about that suggestion.

As to going back to second-person perspective. Sigh. I definitely have some sunk-cost fallacy thinking at this point considering the time I put into the revision. However, there are other reasons I view as more legitimate why third-person is better. 1) It makes the prose publishable. 2) It enables character-hopping. 3) It fosters a more detached viewpoint, which will be better for world-building.
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The setting at the opening is the MC scavenging in a junkyard for items to sell with the goal of assisting their family's financial situation. I could understand this if they were a few years younger, but for legal reasons, they're just a few hours shy of 18 at this point...wouldn't it be more effective to...get a job?

The junkyard mostly seems to be a setup for finding the necklace. The necklace is shown to switch between blue and red shortly before it sinks into the MC. We can assume then that the red and blue affinities the MC possesses are a result of the necklace, presumably because it houses Hemera and Achlys. My question here is primarily...why is such a clearly important artifact sitting in a junkyard? Especially if the two voices spoken about in the prelude are also Hemera and Achlys - did they just flush Dagon's body out the back after he ate Percy and it somehow ended up there?

I also think the necklace contrasts with the Grandfather's box - which talks about the balance of powers, and I'd expect that to largely be the balance of powers between the two goddesses inside you. I'm not entirely sure to what extent you have rewritten the prior content, but "From it, you have obtained a great power that no other will truly comprehend." seems to imply you received something from the box...when at the same time it seems to be from the necklace. It can't merely be Vitality transforming you from a Blind, since plenty of Magi are going to be able to comprehend that. Of course, there's also the bit about they key, so we're set to receive something else eventually, but to speculate what "You must become whole." is a bit much, though I'd expect it either means merging with Hemera/Achlys or merging those two together with yourself.

Of course, I could be interpretting all of this incorrectly and you have a distinct plan for each of these elements, but right now it seems the power could either be coming from a necklace you just happened to pick up or from the magical box your mysterious grandfather left you. Frankly, I'm liking the second more.
Yeah, the introduction warrants editing. I needed to characterize MC more and wrote that bit on the fly. I'll fix it. I just need to get across that MC struggled to make ends meet in a realistic way. Should be an easy enough fix. As for the necklace, I thought that it would be more visually demonstrative than a wooden box. I should combine those elements together into a single item, such as incorporating the colors into the box, for example. Then I lose my excuse to explain the scavenging, so I need to characterize MC's poverty another way. Shouldn't be too difficult to come up with something else...

Ditch the necklace and have the goddesses sealed inside the magical box, then they possess you when you open it. Or if you have some purpose for giving them a physical form in the necklace, have the necklace be placed within the box. I personally prefer the former, but my biggest problem is that there's no reason for the MC to be "Hero" or "Savior" when they just happened to find it while dumpster diving.

Also, there's one particular line, "Kai breathed a sigh of relief. That uncomfortable topic would wait for another time. It was a bit late for them to be giving that lesson, anyway, but her parents didn’t need to know those details.", in reference to sex. I'd remove this, since it seems to imply the MC has sexual experience. That's fine if someone wants that, but it makes that decision for the player rather than allowing them to make it themself. If you like it, you can add a virginity option along with gender and sexuality at the beginning, then alter lines like this based on that variable. That would also allow for more options with smut scenes later on.
Yeah, I like the second suggestion. Hadn't even thought of that one... How embarrassing! I will shamelessly use it.

Yeah, that line has been living rent-free in my head recently. Suffice to say, virginity will soon be a plot mechanic tied to religion. It was intended to be ambiguous, but it's not ambiguous enough. However, virginity will soon be under the reader's control.

The bulk of the story between arriving at The Monastery and becoming a Charmer seems to be similar to what it was previously, so my thoughts there are almost exactly the same as they were in my prior post on page 12 - mostly that the MC is inconsistent and not given the agency to ask questions they should. What I will say is that it felt a bit more rushed than I recall, I think this was due to changes that happened with the perspective rewrite but I may be remembering wrong. I also do not remember Hemera and Achlys speaking to you so much, I believe their first appearance before was when casting "Water Bullet". I liked that a bit more, their increased presence makes them seem far less mysterious, being a bit too familiar for this early on.
MC should be a somewhat blank slate for the reader to mold with their choices. Once I finish writing particular sections of the narrative, I plan to add MC choices which characterize them over time based on the decisions. MC will probably feel awkward and stiff until I get there. I have a lot of work to do!

I am waffling back and forth between approaching the goddesses as either mysterious background forces or spiritual companions with ulterior motives. I'll tackle that issue during revision periods. It's hard to tease out while I'm in the middle of writing. I like that feeling of mystery you described! Should MC have a different companion to fill that void? Probably...

My biggest thing aside from the previous mentions is that it feels too fast, especially with how Jack describes Apprentices. I think the part before the promotions to Charmer should be extended and allow for more interaction with the other Apprentices. I also feel this would help alleviate another issue: The MC becomes very trusting of Dahlia very fast. Personally, I view her with a bit of suspicion, but it's mostly odd because of how recently they've met. Feels a bit weird that Austin and Rudy are also very capable when it came to promotions, considering it's stated that Dahlia was the only Veteran rank at the MC's arrival. Lastly, I don't recall such a huge...religious emphasis before, but I'll get to that next.
I agree that it's rushed in its current state; I've still got some loose ends to tie up. However! Apprentice school is ~2% of the plot outline. It was intended as an introduction to the magi culture, the magic system, and some characters. The bulk of the first act will take place inside the walls. I didn't want to get too bogged down early on before starting work on the actual story. I'll come back to this at some point, probably during revision time. Maybe when I finish writing the first act?

Moving on to the Charmer introduction - if I'm not mistaken, Hemera and Achlys are referred to as "goddesses" within the text, though this may also just be the MC's assumption. The religious thing combined with that however is sketchy as Hell. The presence of "God" with a glowing light beneath her hood makes me feel like I'm about to get scammed by a cult. Those are my instincts at least, I cannot speculate where you're going with that and it isn't really a bad thing, I just mention it because I'm not sure what impression you're trying to give - but my impression is that they are an enemy and I need protection. I think one of the biggest reasons the religious vibe feels so odd to me is that it doesn't really seem to fit with the rest very well. We have ranks of "Apprentice", "Charmer", "Sorcerer"...these all feel distinctly, classically magical, not religious such as "Priest" or "Bishop". It's also the case that I would not expect those who research and learn about magic, a discipline that I presume requires constant questioning, to be so unquestioning about any one being as to call them "God" - I prefer the idea of it being a more classical magic college. Again though, it's not necessarily bad, just very different, but do keep in mind the automatic associations readers will likely have with this words given other media and how you want to overcome that. Overall, I think this section is mostly well-written if definitely sped through.

Side note here, have you ever read the "Zombie Fallout" series by Mark Tufo? There's a scene where, following the apocalypse, they stumble upon a community led by a blessed man who judges people by touching their chest, wherein they feel an electric shock. Of course, he ends up being a sham and the electric shocks come from tasers hidden in his gloves. "God"'s introduction reminded me very much of this.

It looks like I got my tone across effectively in that section. Wink wink. I'm going for a feeling of uncertainty and suspicion directed towards the magi in general. I get that it's not a classical depiction of either religion or magic, that's actually the point. The reason should become apparent in maybe the third or fourth acts. Maybe sooner.

I haven't read it, but it sounds similar!

The one big thing I have here is that when you're an "Apprenctice", you stay in a log cabin. When you're a "Charmer", you're moved here. When you're a "Sorcerer", there's apparently another building entirely. Just how big is this place? A greater description of the physical locations for the reader to better understand the environment would be appreciated, and could add to the feeling of awe that I believe "God" is supposed to give, assuming you keep the cult religious vibe.
I actually started working on mapping and coding the exploration/adventure layout this week. Part of that is environmental descriptions. My working targets are: 40% narrative, 30% smut, 20% adventure, and 10% branching/divergence. As of the last update, adventure was at <1%. It's currently at 4%, so expect more of that.

I mentioned previously that I was under the belief that the "balance" your grandfather's box spoke of was of the balance between the two goddesses. While this may be a misconception on my part, Hemera and Achlys have an increased presence in this current version. On top of that, once you choose one for the spell during your apprenticeship, the other seems to disappear. I.e., I chose Achlys, and from that point on Hemera had no presence, with only Achlys making comments. As stated before, I think having them so active makes them both feel more like parasites than any real mystery, but specifically here, having that decision made so early feels weird. At this point you understand neither, you know neither, you know the motivations of neither, the player cannot make that decision. When I played this last year, I assumed the system would be a continuing number of choices between the two, with your "alignment" shifting as you continued to choose either. That sounds far better to me than the impression I got in this version.
As far as I recall, the spell choice isn't linked to either goddess. Maybe Achlys just has more lines? I'll have to check that during revision. Could they be mysterious parasites...?

I still intend to pursue an alignment mechanic. However, forcing a choice on MC when they don't understand it felt more organic to me.
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Tying things up, there are a lot of misgendering issues if you play a female (and presumably "other") character, I've collected the lines I noticed in the spoiler below for your convenience, though there are likely more.
Thanks! I'll take a look.

There's also this rather awkward line, "'Why did one of the marks disappear?' He pulled up the other sleeve. 'Only one arm is discolored now. What happened?'" Now, I honestly feel like I may have had a stroke when reading through that part so this may be ENTIRELY on me, but I don't think it mentioned pulling up the first sleeve, so this was weird to read. Additionally, stating the "arm" is discolored, when I think he means the brands on your arms, makes me think my character is walking around with one white arm and one yellow. Actually, this may be on me as well, but I didn't realize the "brand" he placed was actually two brands, one on each arm.
That may be an error on my part. I'll check the continuity and take a look at the wording. It's probably unclear. Self-editing is hard. My intention was for the goddesses to brand MC from within, but it likely didn't come across that way.

In regards to the perspective switch, there's a section where you take an omniscient look at Azrael's inner dialogue. This is, to be completely frank and honest, complete rubbish. There are two primary reasons for this: The first being that it removes all depth from Azrael's character. You suddenly know that he was an assassin but can now be trusted to at least always have your best interests in mind, if not strictly interests that align with yours. Prior to this he's a very ambiguous character, he's clearly scared of you, but whether that fear leads to him helping or erasing you is not clear (though his ambiguity is also disrupted by him outright informing the MC [but not the player, as this was something they were told happened, not present for, which I also don't think is good] that he is faking their Affinity to hide them, I would remove that as well - have him place a fake affinity on their forehead without telling the you it's fake, he doesn't know what you are, he shouldn't trust you either). Secondly, as I think you may expect given some of my other statements here, the player now knows that Azrael can be largely trusted, the character does not. This leads to two outcomes: The reader has to sit there knowing that they can trust Azrael on something, while the character has to debate whether or not to trust him OR the character suddenly has an illogical epiphany to trust him. Neither one is good.

The other thing I wanted to bring up was something I already sort of mentioned: Roommates. Since the Charmer introduction is sort of sped through at the moment, it's not super clear to me whether you have a roommate or don't, but there are several pieces of potential here if you do. Firstly, I would extend the apprenticeship section of the story to a point where Margerie can realistically be promoted as well. This shouldn't be too difficult, Margerie is proud and there should be some basis for that pride, I spoke about it on my prior post but she's shown to have almost no magical knowledge despite coming from a prestigous (presumably magical, since according to Jack having a Blind enter is rare) family. She should already have some practice and knowledge coming in (Dahlia clearly does since she states she learned her technique from her mother, so we know teaching children prior to their entry is not forbidden). The reason for this is that it then provides an opportunity for the player to choose their roommate, Dahlia or Margerie for females and Austin or Rudy for males (you'd expect the two brothers to room together, but this can be explained away by Azrael wanting someone in your room to keep an eye on you due to his suspicions). Of course, you could just throw all three together in both cases, but one-on-one interactions provide more opportunity to develop character relationships. If the player is able to get to know the four of them and then choose who they stay with, it provides opportunities for them to get to know the character they're interested in better. The other reason to have a roommate system is for the less honest players out there: Night creeping. If your character is gay, bi, or enjoys anything with a pulse (frankly I think that statement misses out on the opportunity for zombie sex, but that's just me) then they can molest their roommate while they sleep. I think doing this should be a choice left explicitly to the player, but you could potentially add gameplay systems to it as well in the form of alginment with Hemera and Achlys - though that's dependent on their actual nature. I wouldn't do this as morality is not black and white - it's fully possible for an upstanding person to give into temptation - but also because it's a bit lame from a gameplay standpoint to not be able to do something just because you decided the oily tentacle chick might not be trustworthy.

I understand that by not having Margerie graduate at the same time your intent may be to set her up as a rival of sorts - especially given her prideful nature. She would naturally resent somebody, especially a Blind, who came in and immediately ranked up when she did not. However, I don't think she as a character is well-relegated to that role. While she speaks big, there's nothing she does during the apprenticeship that makes her seem like a rival - she's a bit rude, but to be honest doesn't feel mean at all, I actually just get the impression she's insecure due to the pressure of her family and would be extremely loyal to you if that is overcome. If you're insistent on her being in this role, it could be alleviated by playing on that "prestigous family" and giving her a larger presence in terms of ability and knowledge, but her personality isn't really "there" for it either, and I like her how she is now. Of course, to simply have all 5 of them graduate to Charmer is antithetical to what Jack states about the apprenticeship - that it is a boot camp and you either graduate or flunk out. Especially if you want to implement a roommate choice like stated, it may be better to just add another apprentice, someone who is just an utter asshole and arrives alongside Margerie as a novice. The biggest question for such a character would actually be their gender - I lean towards male for several reasons. They can serve as a "rival" during the apprenticeship arc, flunking out and maybe even reappearing as a minor villain later on as a "Dark Mage".
Your criticisms of Azrael's POV chapter make sense. It probably needs to be moved later into the story and delivered through flashbacks, or something to that effect. Keeping the fake affinity secret makes sense. I may shamelessly steal that idea as well! The logical issue with the player trusting Azrael is something I didn't fully appreciate. It's hard to put myself in the mind of the reader slowly discovering information, since I already know what should happen in the rest of the plot and the characters motivations.

You're right that Azrael needs to remain mysterious. The reader shouldn't trust him at first.

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Margerie's character is supposed to be prestigious, confident, airheaded, and relatively incompetent. But socially manipulative. Her pride comes from her family's status.
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As for night creeping, that is also in the plan.

As before, my statements are meant entirely in the best possible light. I recognize I tend to be quite haughty with my assertions and that they may not reflect what you want as the creator, so I hope you take them as the constructive criticisms they are intended to be. I've done my best to include my reasoning for my thoughts to that end. Magic and lewdness are two of my favorite things, so I wish to see this be as good as it possibly can.

That said, I will still make a haughty and somewhat blunt statement: I think I liked the version I played last year more.
I appreciate the reasoning and your honest thoughts. I don't like beating around the bush and I won't get my feelings hurt. I want honest feedback so that it's actually useful. I truly appreciate getting a look inside your mind and that you took the time and effort to play the game and then put your thoughts on paper for me.

The scope of this project is large and it's my first one. It's going to take time for me to realize my vision in a satisfying way. I went into it expecting it to be a ten year project when I began. A previous commenter described the last update as merely "breadcrumbs." That's true! It is breadcrumbs right now, that's why it's in Pre-Alpha.

Honestly, this is an ambitious project. I jumped right into the deep end. Studying narrative writing and working on my own prose took a long time. Planning and plotting the story, characters, and world took a long time. Learning twee syntax and making mistakes with game mechanics in "The Monastery" demo took a long time.

I've also had multiple personal obligations pop up in the past couple years.

Having said all of that, the rubber is now hitting the road with this project. My current goal is to write 550 words/day, 200k words/year. I know what I want to write, I just have to figure out how to write it in a satisfying way.

Ultimately, I want to work on a project I'm passionate about and do it in a way that excites me. I want to create the game that I wanted to play, but couldn't find anywhere. As long as I'm doing that, I'll have motivation to continue working. I know that's not going to satisfy everybody, but I do think it will produce the best product that I could produce in the end.

Brandon Sanderson wrote 12 novels before he got a publishing deal. He decided at a certain point to stop trying to write for the publishers and simply write whatever excited him. His readers weren't reading all of his unpolished, unfinished drafts from the beginning, they just saw the finished products after the editor combed through it. Reading through all of those lower quality drafts would frustrate most readers; I get that.

I have hope that my finished product will be satisfying. It's probably frustrating for the players who can't see the full vision I have in my head. All I can ask is to have patience with me. I'm going to do my best to deliver along the way, but until I finish the project, I'm going to make mistakes.
 
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BlackDahliaStudios

Member
Game Developer
Nov 18, 2020
329
510
Weekly Update:

Smut Rewrite: 3,000/24,400 (12%)
Total Word Count: 55,000 (+5,000)
Weekly Update:

Smut Rewrite: 3,250/24,500 (13%) (+250, +1%)
Total Word Count: 57,000 (+2,000)
Daily Word Count: 498/550 (90%)
Total Progress: 5.7% (+0.2%)

Prose Composition Targets:
Narrative: 23,909/57,103 (42%/40%, +2%)
Smut: 24,488/57,103 (43%/30%, +13%)
Adventure: 2,221/57,103 (4%/20%, -16%)
Branching: 6,485/57,103 (11%/10%, +1%)

Note: Had a funeral this week. Lost a weekend.
Note: Daily word count will keep track since I started writing again at the 50k mark (8/19/23).
 
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As far as my perspective on the design, I don't actually view this project as a role-playing game. So I disagree that the reader is supposed to "become their character." I'm planning for the reader to have the opportunity make choices for other characters, which affect the plot, and for the reader to continue playing after the MC's death in certain circumstances.
I will say, this is not at all what came across from the game's previous or current iteration. "Player Stats", "Inventory", "Spells"...everything about it screams RPG, especially your statements regarding the MC being a blank slate for the player to make personality-defining decisions on. I'll also warn you, having players define and carefully craft the MC, deciding their actions and interests, only for them to be killed and the story carry on is most likely going to be upsetting - it could play as some "bad end", but I generally think bad ends should be fluid and allow players to work their way out of it. I actually think you may be better off treating this as an RPG if you want the player to affect it to the extent it sounds like. The more you can define the character, the more "role-playing" comes into the picture.

In terms of the player making choices for other characters, it really does depend on how you're trying to portray the story. Swapping perspectives and making decisions turns the player into an omniscient, albeit limited, God. This could become frustrating, "I was just able to make this character do this, why can I not make them do that."

It's also the case that rather than swapping perspectives and directly making decisions, you can more immersively have the player influence other characters on the decisions they make. For instance, you have two glasses of water, A and B. You can swap to Margerie and choose which she takes, OR you could present the player the option to tell her to take A or B. She then takes the opposite, because she would.

If you want the player to control the main character, you're making a "Game", but if you want them to make a handful of decisions that alter the narrative, you're making a "Choose your own adventure." My impression on everything but this quoted statement is the former.

Moving the prelude later into the story is an interesting idea. Foreshadowing and tone-setting was my goal with including it. Would moving it affect that? Would it make the initiating event (opening the box) more powerful? Or would it distract from it? I'm not sure. I would also have to think about the mechanics of how MC receives that vision. It may not make sense with the rules of the magic system (it would also change grandfather's character actions and knowledge/motivations).
My opinion is that the tone set with the prelude and the tone set with the beginning of the story are and should be vastly different. The prelude features torture, cannibalism, a cult...the story introduction features...torture (bills), cannibalism (capitalism), a cult (class warfare)...but like, more metaphorical. That joke aside because I had to make it, the introduction features the player learning about magic - it's bright, fantastical, promising. At this point the MC has suffered poverty and learned of this power that could change their status. They're vastly different and I believe the active tone should shift with events - there are clearly going to be dark moments, but they need to be played into.

The biggest obstacle with displaying the prelude at the opening of the box would be that it is very long winded for this section. Rather than telling the player in this manner, I would show it. Flashes - visions - sounds - two voices pounding in your head- a man in chains - a body engorged - his fellow newly enwreathed in cloth. The player and character would then connect these images to the world's history as they learn about it. Read a text about a snake dude who liked eating people? Maybe that's the fucker from the vision, who knows?

I know nothing about the magic system except what has been given in the apprenticeship section, so I don't know really what the rules are. I'd expect if the illusion of words can be displayed from the box, images could as well, but I actually think screw the magic - the visions should be a consequence of the parasi - err - "goddesses" possessing you. Percy was presumably their last host, making the assumption they were the voices arguing in his head, his last moments and what followed may then be transferred to you.

As to going back to second-person perspective. Sigh. I definitely have some sunk-cost fallacy thinking at this point considering the time I put into the revision. However, there are other reasons I view as more legitimate why third-person is better. 1) It makes the prose publishable. 2) It enables character-hopping. 3) It fosters a more detached viewpoint, which will be better for world-building.
I made this statement with the belief that an RPG was your intent, in which case second-person was in almost every way a better option. If you're going the other way, then third-person is likely better. To be honest though, I'm really having a hard time wrapping my head around that.

1. I agree on this, second-person is rarely published because of the limited scope of a book, you cannot have the reader choose to go down nearly as many paths as it would take to insert them into the tale.

2. Potentially. Keep in mind character-hopping is generally the easiest but not always the best way to convey information.

3. This I disagree with strongly. From a third-person perspective, you are told about the world, from a second-person, you are immersed in the world. The advantage in world-building with third-person is character hopping, it allows for more viewpoints, opinions, thoughts - information, essentially. You can tell the reader more, but second-person allows them to interact with it. Both have their advantages, but from a reader engagement standpoint, I believe second-person does the job far better. The reason you don't see many second-person novels is, as I said with (1), it's not really possible in the form of classic literature. Thankfully, computers make it possible, and RPGs have ended up being the primary medium for it.

Something I would actually recommend for this is working with AI. It's not going to be perfect, but you can write a passage, ask ChatGPT to translate it to second/third person, and see how they flow in comparison. It could save a lot of time.

I needed to characterize MC more and wrote that bit on the fly. I'll fix it. I just need to get across that MC struggled to make ends meet in a realistic way. Should be an easy enough fix. As for the necklace, I thought that it would be more visually demonstrative than a wooden box. I should combine those elements together into a single item, such as incorporating the colors into the box, for example. Then I lose my excuse to explain the scavenging, so I need to characterize MC's poverty another way.
This goes back to what I was saying with the visions and prelude, somewhat, but there are a lot of ways to make it clear to the reader that the family's financial situation is unreliable without clearly saying it. Maybe the lights flicker occasionally, you have to triple-check all three locks on the door given the crime in the area, you share a room with your brother (male protag) or sister (female protag) or dog (other protag [this was a joke please don't report me to Twitter]). Allow the reader to garner as much information as possible from the environment before clearly telling them the situation. This is another advantage that immersing the player in the environment has.

Yeah, that line has been living rent-free in my head recently. Suffice to say, virginity will soon be a plot mechanic tied to religion. It was intended to be ambiguous, but it's not ambiguous enough. However, virginity will soon be under the reader's control.
I don't think this will be too helpful since it sounds like you plan on rewriting this entire section, but this is actually very easy to address for this line in-particular, "Kai breathed a sigh of relief. That uncomfortable topic would wait for another time. She was a bit too old to be hearing about that, anyway." because let's be honest, what 18 year old doesn't know about sex?...of course, I'm literally typing a comment on an adult game site, maybe I'm not the best sample for how people grow up. Still, I think dynamic lines would be better to help show consequences to player decisions.

MC should be a somewhat blank slate for the reader to mold with their choices. Once I finish writing particular sections of the narrative, I plan to add MC choices which characterize them over time based on the decisions. MC will probably feel awkward and stiff until I get there. I have a lot of work to do!
I already sort of commented on this to a certain extent, but I want to clarify that when I say the MC is "inconsistent", I mean their behaviour. They can be apprehensive one moment, then boisterous with Margerie the next. I actually think they're not very blank at all, they seem to morph into different people at a moment's notice, but it definitely does feel stiff.

I think of it as "What is the most logical way the MC would respond to this situation?" They were just thrust into the world of magic. If Dahlia is kind to them, they'd likely be apprehensively kind back. Margerie acts self-important? They don't quite understand why, maybe don't risk it (Margerie in particular is a complicated case, if she comes across as clearly wealthy the MC should be especially wary of her given their own family's finances.)

I am waffling back and forth between approaching the goddesses as either mysterious background forces or spiritual companions with ulterior motives. I'll tackle that issue during revision periods. It's hard to tease out while I'm in the middle of writing. I like that feeling of mystery you described! Should MC have a different companion to fill that void? Probably...
I assume they're both. They're goddesses, of some sort, but they quite clearly have ulterior motives - yet why would they interfere in something that doesn't much matter? For instance, Azrael's illusion, they both tell you you're safe, but if their host isn't in danger, why intervene? The only possibility is to gain your trust, but is this the motivation of both goddesses? Their constant presence makes them feel less like "goddesses" and more like termites in your roof.

I agree that it's rushed in its current state; I've still got some loose ends to tie up. However! Apprentice school is ~2% of the plot outline. It was intended as an introduction to the magi culture, the magic system, and some characters. The bulk of the first act will take place inside the walls. I didn't want to get too bogged down early on before starting work on the actual story. I'll come back to this at some point, probably during revision time. Maybe when I finish writing the first act?
I think that's the issue, it doesn't really serve any of those purposes. Your opportunity to learn magi culture is almost absent given the limited number of people you interact with. The most you get is Azrael simping for "God".

The magic system is given a very brief explanation regarding vitality, essence, the blind, and sinners, but not really any of the details I'd expect to be given to an apprentice, so you effectively enter as a Charmer with barely any more knowledge than you had when you opened the box. The biggest problem for the magic system is that right after you cast "water bullet" (that is, the two variations the goddesses give you), Azrael says it's enough to become a Charmer, and then your training...pretty much ends? The only other real magical instances are Azrael's illusion to test you, and when you wake up in the middle of the fire (I'm not a big fan of that bit, it doesn't give you any information other than "Something wacky is going on." which you already know at this point - it does have the potential effect of increasing Azrael's suspicion of you, but he's already at max - it has the negative effect of convicing the player the goddesses intend to possess them, making them seem far less cunning or powerful [Note, I don't know if this still occurs if you choose Hemera for the "water bullet", I'd expect not but I always chose the goth girl since I'm way more interested in personal gain and power than helping things]).

Your interactions with the characters are very limited, the only one I felt I got a serious handle on was Azrael. The other four? Not really. Margerie and Dahlia are both very straightfoward, as I think they should be at this point, but I felt like I simply exchanged pleasantries with...well, Dahlia at least, and banter with Margerie. The brothers not at all.

It's not particularly original to do this, but you may want to force those applying for promotion to work together in some way, giving the excuse of it being a display of their understanding of what they've been taught. A short quest - solve puzzles in the woods, battle an illusion Azrael created, just something that forces a deeper interaction for those moving forward.

Another thing I want to mention is how you go about writing it, that is, going back and redoing sections after writing later sections. It's an inherent difference in our working order, I prefer a waterfall workflow - I won't move on until I feel something is right. That's not always the best approach, so this is by no means a criticism of your method, but I do want to caution you that doing it like that can lead to oversights. You can write something based on one thing, change that one thing, and forget to alter the writing for that, so do be careful.

It looks like I got my tone across effectively in that section. Wink wink. I'm going for a feeling of uncertainty and suspicion directed towards the magi in general. I get that it's not a classical depiction of either religion or magic, that's actually the point. The reason should become apparent in maybe the third or fourth acts. Maybe sooner.
In that case, you did - though I will add that rather than "uncertainty", I felt "hostility" towards them.

As far as I recall, the spell choice isn't linked to either goddess. Maybe Achlys just has more lines? I'll have to check that during revision. Could they be mysterious parasites...?
During the "water bullet" training session, the goddesses appear in the MC's mind. You choose one, and what spell you actually cast changes based on this. For Hemera, it heals the wood that was damaged by the water bullets of the other apprentices, for Achlys, it erupts into (presumably) a fireball - you character doesn't come to and see the effect until after it is cast, so it can't be said definitively.

Well, yes, they're parasites, but "goddesses" can still be parasitic, so it works.

I still intend to pursue an alignment mechanic. However, forcing a choice on MC when they don't understand it felt more organic to me.
I think it serves as a stellar introduction to the two, and I feel like it should really be the only interaction you receive with them at this point. Assuming alignment is in-fact flexible, then I have no issues with this choice being required here, it simply felt weird since I believe I only heard from Achlys afterwards.

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I appreciate the reasoning and your honest thoughts. I don't like beating around the bush and I won't get my feelings hurt. I want honest feedback so that it's actually useful. I truly appreciate getting a look inside your mind and that you took the time and effort to play the game and then put your thoughts on paper for me.
I thought you would given our previous interaction, but I offer that disclaimer out of respect - and also because people get angry at me a lot for being uncompromising.

Brandon Sanderson wrote 12 novels before he got a publishing deal.
I find it very funny you say this. I can see a pretty clear influence of Brandon Sanderson with your "prelude", but I have a mixed opinion of him. The worlds he creates are extraordinary, incredibly interesting and vast - even if the actual worldbuilding for the reader doesn't always get it across. But his characters can sometimes be... Have you read his "Stormlight Archive"? Incredibly cool world, amazing elements to it...I can't believe he turned Kaladin and Adolin into one-dimensional simps. I have a massive amount of respect for the lore he creates, but man do I feel like he overstays his welcome in some ways.

It's probably frustrating for the players who can't see the full vision I have in my head.
Less frustrating and more confusing, I'd say.

However, that's one of the advantages of two things you have going on here:

- Presenting your writing as a "game" will increase engagement, people are far more willing to read through something again for new content if it's a game they can interact and make choices with.

- It's a game with smut. People on this site will do anything for smut.

So allowing people to "play your game" is going to lead to greater amounts of feedback than just publishing it as say, a webnovel.

At the same time, since your intent is publishment, I do want to bring up a few obstacles this could introduce:

- Let's be honest, you're going to have to cut pretty much all the smut stuff. This would most likely aim towards more of a "Young Adult" fantasy book, so that's probably not going to fly too well.

- As mentioned with the issues of second-person, player choice, and classic literary forms, a published novel is not going to be able to contain a variety of different routes for the reader. You will end up having to pick and choose your plot.

With those things said, I'm going to make a bold suggestion. I think you should treat this as a "game" with RPG elements. Add paths for the players, add characters, lore and stories for them to engage with. Treat it as an opportunity to build your world with endless possibilities, and then, taking all that and what you've learned, cut it down to the story you want to submit. Any way you do this, you're going to have to rewrite a lot if you want to transform it from an open adult experience to a published novel.

Lastly, I'd like to recommend two stories that I think may be helpful to you:

- The "Brotherband Chronicles" series by John Flanagan, specifically the first book "The Outcasts", I think it could provide good reference material for the apprentice section of the game.

- "Magium", it's a mobile, text-based RPG. The lore and writing of it is for the most part very, very good, and I think it does a lot of stuff well that you're trying to do here. It might be worth a look, though it is far smaller in scope than your intents.
 
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BlackDahliaStudios

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I will say, this is not at all what came across from the game's previous or current iteration. "Player Stats", "Inventory", "Spells"...everything about it screams RPG, especially your statements regarding the MC being a blank slate for the player to make personality-defining decisions on. I'll also warn you, having players define and carefully craft the MC, deciding their actions and interests, only for them to be killed and the story carry on is most likely going to be upsetting - it could play as some "bad end", but I generally think bad ends should be fluid and allow players to work their way out of it. I actually think you may be better off treating this as an RPG if you want the player to affect it to the extent it sounds like. The more you can define the character, the more "role-playing" comes into the picture.

In terms of the player making choices for other characters, it really does depend on how you're trying to portray the story. Swapping perspectives and making decisions turns the player into an omniscient, albeit limited, God. This could become frustrating, "I was just able to make this character do this, why can I not make them do that."

It's also the case that rather than swapping perspectives and directly making decisions, you can more immersively have the player influence other characters on the decisions they make. For instance, you have two glasses of water, A and B. You can swap to Margerie and choose which she takes, OR you could present the player the option to tell her to take A or B. She then takes the opposite, because she would.

If you want the player to control the main character, you're making a "Game", but if you want them to make a handful of decisions that alter the narrative, you're making a "Choose your own adventure." My impression on everything but this quoted statement is the former.
That's fair. Those sidebars are a remnant of the past, which I had sort of forgotten about, honestly. I like the idea of having an encyclopedia, but I recently started thinking about this project from a 'Telltale Games' perspective in terms of design. Player seemed more interested in plot and smut than RPG mechanics. (I am also more interested in that from a development standpoint.) Even that isn't the best description of what I'm imagining because I want to eventually incorporate mechanics involving procedural generation. The future of this project will be primarily focused on storytelling and player choice rather than leveling up or gathering inventory items. It's hard for me to explain what I want to do, because I haven't really seen it done before. Mindwheel is maybe the closest example, from what I understand. And I actually haven't played it yet.

In any event, it seems like I have two options. Either embrace stats, items, etc. And then make them up for each alternative character perspective that is hopped to. Or jettison those features entirely. I'm leaning towards the latter, but the former could be funny (or infuriating).

My opinion is that the tone set with the prelude and the tone set with the beginning of the story are and should be vastly different. The prelude features torture, cannibalism, a cult...the story introduction features...torture (bills), cannibalism (capitalism), a cult (class warfare)...but like, more metaphorical. That joke aside because I had to make it, the introduction features the player learning about magic - it's bright, fantastical, promising. At this point the MC has suffered poverty and learned of this power that could change their status. They're vastly different and I believe the active tone should shift with events - there are clearly going to be dark moments, but they need to be played into.

The biggest obstacle with displaying the prelude at the opening of the box would be that it is very long winded for this section. Rather than telling the player in this manner, I would show it. Flashes - visions - sounds - two voices pounding in your head- a man in chains - a body engorged - his fellow newly enwreathed in cloth. The player and character would then connect these images to the world's history as they learn about it. Read a text about a snake dude who liked eating people? Maybe that's the fucker from the vision, who knows?

I know nothing about the magic system except what has been given in the apprenticeship section, so I don't know really what the rules are. I'd expect if the illusion of words can be displayed from the box, images could as well, but I actually think screw the magic - the visions should be a consequence of the parasi - err - "goddesses" possessing you. Percy was presumably their last host, making the assumption they were the voices arguing in his head, his last moments and what followed may then be transferred to you.
Ah, you are actually talking about the prologue rather than the prelude. Yeah, I could move the prologue after character creation and keep the prelude before it. That seems like it could work.

I made this statement with the belief that an RPG was your intent, in which case second-person was in almost every way a better option. If you're going the other way, then third-person is likely better. To be honest though, I'm really having a hard time wrapping my head around that.

1. I agree on this, second-person is rarely published because of the limited scope of a book, you cannot have the reader choose to go down nearly as many paths as it would take to insert them into the tale.

2. Potentially. Keep in mind character-hopping is generally the easiest but not always the best way to convey information.

3. This I disagree with strongly. From a third-person perspective, you are told about the world, from a second-person, you are immersed in the world. The advantage in world-building with third-person is character hopping, it allows for more viewpoints, opinions, thoughts - information, essentially. You can tell the reader more, but second-person allows them to interact with it. Both have their advantages, but from a reader engagement standpoint, I believe second-person does the job far better. The reason you don't see many second-person novels is, as I said with (1), it's not really possible in the form of classic literature. Thankfully, computers make it possible, and RPGs have ended up being the primary medium for it.
Yeah, maybe second-person is technically optimal for a game. I'm viewing this project more as an interactive, programmed novel at this point, which would be the source of the disconnect.

Something I would actually recommend for this is working with AI. It's not going to be perfect, but you can write a passage, ask ChatGPT to translate it to second/third person, and see how they flow in comparison. It could save a lot of time.
I've thought about that. Part of the problem is that I have been writing syntax into the prose, so I would really have to learn how to work around that.

This goes back to what I was saying with the visions and prelude, somewhat, but there are a lot of ways to make it clear to the reader that the family's financial situation is unreliable without clearly saying it. Maybe the lights flicker occasionally, you have to triple-check all three locks on the door given the crime in the area, you share a room with your brother (male protag) or sister (female protag) or dog (other protag [this was a joke please don't report me to Twitter]). Allow the reader to garner as much information as possible from the environment before clearly telling them the situation. This is another advantage that immersing the player in the environment has.

I don't think this will be too helpful since it sounds like you plan on rewriting this entire section, but this is actually very easy to address for this line in-particular, "Kai breathed a sigh of relief. That uncomfortable topic would wait for another time. She was a bit too old to be hearing about that, anyway." because let's be honest, what 18 year old doesn't know about sex?...of course, I'm literally typing a comment on an adult game site, maybe I'm not the best sample for how people grow up. Still, I think dynamic lines would be better to help show consequences to player decisions.
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I already sort of commented on this to a certain extent, but I want to clarify that when I say the MC is "inconsistent", I mean their behaviour. They can be apprehensive one moment, then boisterous with Margerie the next. I actually think they're not very blank at all, they seem to morph into different people at a moment's notice, but it definitely does feel stiff.

I think of it as "What is the most logical way the MC would respond to this situation?" They were just thrust into the world of magic. If Dahlia is kind to them, they'd likely be apprehensively kind back. Margerie acts self-important? They don't quite understand why, maybe don't risk it (Margerie in particular is a complicated case, if she comes across as clearly wealthy the MC should be especially wary of her given their own family's finances.)
Yeah, I've been thinking the same thing myself. I want the MC to have drastically different behaviors available, and I want to leave it up the the reader's choice. In other words, MC responds however you want them to. The problem is that I don't have alternatives choices for all of those behaviors written yet.

I assume they're both. They're goddesses, of some sort, but they quite clearly have ulterior motives - yet why would they interfere in something that doesn't much matter? For instance, Azrael's illusion, they both tell you you're safe, but if their host isn't in danger, why intervene? The only possibility is to gain your trust, but is this the motivation of both goddesses? Their constant presence makes them feel less like "goddesses" and more like termites in your roof.
Yeah, I won't go into too much detail on that, but I understand your thought process.

I think that's the issue, it doesn't really serve any of those purposes. Your opportunity to learn magi culture is almost absent given the limited number of people you interact with. The most you get is Azrael simping for "God".

The magic system is given a very brief explanation regarding vitality, essence, the blind, and sinners, but not really any of the details I'd expect to be given to an apprentice, so you effectively enter as a Charmer with barely any more knowledge than you had when you opened the box. The biggest problem for the magic system is that right after you cast "water bullet" (that is, the two variations the goddesses give you), Azrael says it's enough to become a Charmer, and then your training...pretty much ends? The only other real magical instances are Azrael's illusion to test you, and when you wake up in the middle of the fire (I'm not a big fan of that bit, it doesn't give you any information other than "Something wacky is going on." which you already know at this point - it does have the potential effect of increasing Azrael's suspicion of you, but he's already at max - it has the negative effect of convicing the player the goddesses intend to possess them, making them seem far less cunning or powerful [Note, I don't know if this still occurs if you choose Hemera for the "water bullet", I'd expect not but I always chose the goth girl since I'm way more interested in personal gain and power than helping things]).

Your interactions with the characters are very limited, the only one I felt I got a serious handle on was Azrael. The other four? Not really. Margerie and Dahlia are both very straightfoward, as I think they should be at this point, but I felt like I simply exchanged pleasantries with...well, Dahlia at least, and banter with Margerie. The brothers not at all.

It's not particularly original to do this, but you may want to force those applying for promotion to work together in some way, giving the excuse of it being a display of their understanding of what they've been taught. A short quest - solve puzzles in the woods, battle an illusion Azrael created, just something that forces a deeper interaction for those moving forward.
Right. I'm thinking that I should add sections from the other Apprentice's perspectives while MC is still there. This will characterize the other characters while also providing backstory through their narration. When you criticized the Azrael POV, I was already pondering switching it to the side characters.

Another thing I want to mention is how you go about writing it, that is, going back and redoing sections after writing later sections. It's an inherent difference in our working order, I prefer a waterfall workflow - I won't move on until I feel something is right. That's not always the best approach, so this is by no means a criticism of your method, but I do want to caution you that doing it like that can lead to oversights. You can write something based on one thing, change that one thing, and forget to alter the writing for that, so do be careful.
Yeah, I definitely prefer it because I have no confidence that I can "get it right" the first time. Also, I have a natural tendency to spend forever coming up with ideas instead of actually working, so it's better for me to just get words on the page.

In that case, you did - though I will add that rather than "uncertainty", I felt "hostility" towards them.
That's a fine feeling too. :ROFLMAO:

During the "water bullet" training session, the goddesses appear in the MC's mind. You choose one, and what spell you actually cast changes based on this. For Hemera, it heals the wood that was damaged by the water bullets of the other apprentices, for Achlys, it erupts into (presumably) a fireball - you character doesn't come to and see the effect until after it is cast, so it can't be said definitively.

Well, yes, they're parasites, but "goddesses" can still be parasitic, so it works.
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I think it serves as a stellar introduction to the two, and I feel like it should really be the only interaction you receive with them at this point. Assuming alignment is in-fact flexible, then I have no issues with this choice being required here, it simply felt weird since I believe I only heard from Achlys afterwards.
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:LOL:

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I thought you would given our previous interaction, but I offer that disclaimer out of respect - and also because people get angry at me a lot for being uncompromising.
That anger is silly, in my opinion.

I find it very funny you say this. I can see a pretty clear influence of Brandon Sanderson with your "prelude", but I have a mixed opinion of him. The worlds he creates are extraordinary, incredibly interesting and vast - even if the actual worldbuilding for the reader doesn't always get it across. But his characters can sometimes be... Have you read his "Stormlight Archive"? Incredibly cool world, amazing elements to it...I can't believe he turned Kaladin and Adolin into one-dimensional simps. I have a massive amount of respect for the lore he creates, but man do I feel like he overstays his welcome in some ways.
I'm just about to finish Oathbringer. I'm on part five. His writing was inspirational for me, but I'll acknowledge that it has its flaws, just like any other work of art. Oathbringer is feeling too long to me, but I'm reserving judgment until I finish it.

Less frustrating and more confusing, I'd say.

However, that's one of the advantages of two things you have going on here:

- Presenting your writing as a "game" will increase engagement, people are far more willing to read through something again for new content if it's a game they can interact and make choices with.

- It's a game with smut. People on this site will do anything for smut.

So allowing people to "play your game" is going to lead to greater amounts of feedback than just publishing it as say, a webnovel.

At the same time, since your intent is publishment, I do want to bring up a few obstacles this could introduce:

- Let's be honest, you're going to have to cut pretty much all the smut stuff. This would most likely aim towards more of a "Young Adult" fantasy book, so that's probably not going to fly too well.

- As mentioned with the issues of second-person, player choice, and classic literary forms, a published novel is not going to be able to contain a variety of different routes for the reader. You will end up having to pick and choose your plot.

With those things said, I'm going to make a bold suggestion. I think you should treat this as a "game" with RPG elements. Add paths for the players, add characters, lore and stories for them to engage with. Treat it as an opportunity to build your world with endless possibilities, and then, taking all that and what you've learned, cut it down to the story you want to submit. Any way you do this, you're going to have to rewrite a lot if you want to transform it from an open adult experience to a published novel.

Lastly, I'd like to recommend two stories that I think may be helpful to you:

- The "Brotherband Chronicles" series by John Flanagan, specifically the first book "The Outcasts", I think it could provide good reference material for the apprentice section of the game.

- "Magium", it's a mobile, text-based RPG. The lore and writing of it is for the most part very, very good, and I think it does a lot of stuff well that you're trying to do here. It might be worth a look, though it is far smaller in scope than your intents.
Yeah, publishing isn't going to be a simple plug and play. I'll have a lot of editing work to do after the game is complete. I may ultimately choose not bother with it, but I still want to try and work on this project in a way that makes that option a possibility when it's all said and done. Specifically, I planned on leaving the more vanilla smut and self-publishing. I also planned to limit the CYOA elements to just the major plot points. Have a single decision at the end of each novel, directing the reader to a different sequel novel based on their choice. But seriously considering the publishing logistics is getting ahead of myself.

I'll check out the references if I have time. Thanks!
 

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I will say, this is not at all what came across from the game's previous or current iteration. "Player Stats", "Inventory", "Spells"...everything about it screams RPG, especially your statements regarding the MC being a blank slate for the player to make personality-defining decisions on. I'll also warn you, having players define and carefully craft the MC, deciding their actions and interests, only for them to be killed and the story carry on is most likely going to be upsetting - it could play as some "bad end", but I generally think bad ends should be fluid and allow players to work their way out of it. I actually think you may be better off treating this as an RPG if you want the player to affect it to the extent it sounds like. The more you can define the character, the more "role-playing" comes into the picture.

In terms of the player making choices for other characters, it really does depend on how you're trying to portray the story. Swapping perspectives and making decisions turns the player into an omniscient, albeit limited, God. This could become frustrating, "I was just able to make this character do this, why can I not make them do that."

It's also the case that rather than swapping perspectives and directly making decisions, you can more immersively have the player influence other characters on the decisions they make. For instance, you have two glasses of water, A and B. You can swap to Margerie and choose which she takes, OR you could present the player the option to tell her to take A or B. She then takes the opposite, because she would.

If you want the player to control the main character, you're making a "Game", but if you want them to make a handful of decisions that alter the narrative, you're making a "Choose your own adventure." My impression on everything but this quoted statement is the former.



My opinion is that the tone set with the prelude and the tone set with the beginning of the story are and should be vastly different. The prelude features torture, cannibalism, a cult...the story introduction features...torture (bills), cannibalism (capitalism), a cult (class warfare)...but like, more metaphorical. That joke aside because I had to make it, the introduction features the player learning about magic - it's bright, fantastical, promising. At this point the MC has suffered poverty and learned of this power that could change their status. They're vastly different and I believe the active tone should shift with events - there are clearly going to be dark moments, but they need to be played into.

The biggest obstacle with displaying the prelude at the opening of the box would be that it is very long winded for this section. Rather than telling the player in this manner, I would show it. Flashes - visions - sounds - two voices pounding in your head- a man in chains - a body engorged - his fellow newly enwreathed in cloth. The player and character would then connect these images to the world's history as they learn about it. Read a text about a snake dude who liked eating people? Maybe that's the fucker from the vision, who knows?

I know nothing about the magic system except what has been given in the apprenticeship section, so I don't know really what the rules are. I'd expect if the illusion of words can be displayed from the box, images could as well, but I actually think screw the magic - the visions should be a consequence of the parasi - err - "goddesses" possessing you. Percy was presumably their last host, making the assumption they were the voices arguing in his head, his last moments and what followed may then be transferred to you.



I made this statement with the belief that an RPG was your intent, in which case second-person was in almost every way a better option. If you're going the other way, then third-person is likely better. To be honest though, I'm really having a hard time wrapping my head around that.

1. I agree on this, second-person is rarely published because of the limited scope of a book, you cannot have the reader choose to go down nearly as many paths as it would take to insert them into the tale.

2. Potentially. Keep in mind character-hopping is generally the easiest but not always the best way to convey information.

3. This I disagree with strongly. From a third-person perspective, you are told about the world, from a second-person, you are immersed in the world. The advantage in world-building with third-person is character hopping, it allows for more viewpoints, opinions, thoughts - information, essentially. You can tell the reader more, but second-person allows them to interact with it. Both have their advantages, but from a reader engagement standpoint, I believe second-person does the job far better. The reason you don't see many second-person novels is, as I said with (1), it's not really possible in the form of classic literature. Thankfully, computers make it possible, and RPGs have ended up being the primary medium for it.

Something I would actually recommend for this is working with AI. It's not going to be perfect, but you can write a passage, ask ChatGPT to translate it to second/third person, and see how they flow in comparison. It could save a lot of time.



This goes back to what I was saying with the visions and prelude, somewhat, but there are a lot of ways to make it clear to the reader that the family's financial situation is unreliable without clearly saying it. Maybe the lights flicker occasionally, you have to triple-check all three locks on the door given the crime in the area, you share a room with your brother (male protag) or sister (female protag) or dog (other protag [this was a joke please don't report me to Twitter]). Allow the reader to garner as much information as possible from the environment before clearly telling them the situation. This is another advantage that immersing the player in the environment has.



I don't think this will be too helpful since it sounds like you plan on rewriting this entire section, but this is actually very easy to address for this line in-particular, "Kai breathed a sigh of relief. That uncomfortable topic would wait for another time. She was a bit too old to be hearing about that, anyway." because let's be honest, what 18 year old doesn't know about sex?...of course, I'm literally typing a comment on an adult game site, maybe I'm not the best sample for how people grow up. Still, I think dynamic lines would be better to help show consequences to player decisions.



I already sort of commented on this to a certain extent, but I want to clarify that when I say the MC is "inconsistent", I mean their behaviour. They can be apprehensive one moment, then boisterous with Margerie the next. I actually think they're not very blank at all, they seem to morph into different people at a moment's notice, but it definitely does feel stiff.

I think of it as "What is the most logical way the MC would respond to this situation?" They were just thrust into the world of magic. If Dahlia is kind to them, they'd likely be apprehensively kind back. Margerie acts self-important? They don't quite understand why, maybe don't risk it (Margerie in particular is a complicated case, if she comes across as clearly wealthy the MC should be especially wary of her given their own family's finances.)



I assume they're both. They're goddesses, of some sort, but they quite clearly have ulterior motives - yet why would they interfere in something that doesn't much matter? For instance, Azrael's illusion, they both tell you you're safe, but if their host isn't in danger, why intervene? The only possibility is to gain your trust, but is this the motivation of both goddesses? Their constant presence makes them feel less like "goddesses" and more like termites in your roof.



I think that's the issue, it doesn't really serve any of those purposes. Your opportunity to learn magi culture is almost absent given the limited number of people you interact with. The most you get is Azrael simping for "God".

The magic system is given a very brief explanation regarding vitality, essence, the blind, and sinners, but not really any of the details I'd expect to be given to an apprentice, so you effectively enter as a Charmer with barely any more knowledge than you had when you opened the box. The biggest problem for the magic system is that right after you cast "water bullet" (that is, the two variations the goddesses give you), Azrael says it's enough to become a Charmer, and then your training...pretty much ends? The only other real magical instances are Azrael's illusion to test you, and when you wake up in the middle of the fire (I'm not a big fan of that bit, it doesn't give you any information other than "Something wacky is going on." which you already know at this point - it does have the potential effect of increasing Azrael's suspicion of you, but he's already at max - it has the negative effect of convicing the player the goddesses intend to possess them, making them seem far less cunning or powerful [Note, I don't know if this still occurs if you choose Hemera for the "water bullet", I'd expect not but I always chose the goth girl since I'm way more interested in personal gain and power than helping things]).

Your interactions with the characters are very limited, the only one I felt I got a serious handle on was Azrael. The other four? Not really. Margerie and Dahlia are both very straightfoward, as I think they should be at this point, but I felt like I simply exchanged pleasantries with...well, Dahlia at least, and banter with Margerie. The brothers not at all.

It's not particularly original to do this, but you may want to force those applying for promotion to work together in some way, giving the excuse of it being a display of their understanding of what they've been taught. A short quest - solve puzzles in the woods, battle an illusion Azrael created, just something that forces a deeper interaction for those moving forward.

Another thing I want to mention is how you go about writing it, that is, going back and redoing sections after writing later sections. It's an inherent difference in our working order, I prefer a waterfall workflow - I won't move on until I feel something is right. That's not always the best approach, so this is by no means a criticism of your method, but I do want to caution you that doing it like that can lead to oversights. You can write something based on one thing, change that one thing, and forget to alter the writing for that, so do be careful.



In that case, you did - though I will add that rather than "uncertainty", I felt "hostility" towards them.



During the "water bullet" training session, the goddesses appear in the MC's mind. You choose one, and what spell you actually cast changes based on this. For Hemera, it heals the wood that was damaged by the water bullets of the other apprentices, for Achlys, it erupts into (presumably) a fireball - you character doesn't come to and see the effect until after it is cast, so it can't be said definitively.

Well, yes, they're parasites, but "goddesses" can still be parasitic, so it works.



I think it serves as a stellar introduction to the two, and I feel like it should really be the only interaction you receive with them at this point. Assuming alignment is in-fact flexible, then I have no issues with this choice being required here, it simply felt weird since I believe I only heard from Achlys afterwards.

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I thought you would given our previous interaction, but I offer that disclaimer out of respect - and also because people get angry at me a lot for being uncompromising.



I find it very funny you say this. I can see a pretty clear influence of Brandon Sanderson with your "prelude", but I have a mixed opinion of him. The worlds he creates are extraordinary, incredibly interesting and vast - even if the actual worldbuilding for the reader doesn't always get it across. But his characters can sometimes be... Have you read his "Stormlight Archive"? Incredibly cool world, amazing elements to it...I can't believe he turned Kaladin and Adolin into one-dimensional simps. I have a massive amount of respect for the lore he creates, but man do I feel like he overstays his welcome in some ways.



Less frustrating and more confusing, I'd say.

However, that's one of the advantages of two things you have going on here:

- Presenting your writing as a "game" will increase engagement, people are far more willing to read through something again for new content if it's a game they can interact and make choices with.

- It's a game with smut. People on this site will do anything for smut.

So allowing people to "play your game" is going to lead to greater amounts of feedback than just publishing it as say, a webnovel.

At the same time, since your intent is publishment, I do want to bring up a few obstacles this could introduce:

- Let's be honest, you're going to have to cut pretty much all the smut stuff. This would most likely aim towards more of a "Young Adult" fantasy book, so that's probably not going to fly too well.

- As mentioned with the issues of second-person, player choice, and classic literary forms, a published novel is not going to be able to contain a variety of different routes for the reader. You will end up having to pick and choose your plot.

With those things said, I'm going to make a bold suggestion. I think you should treat this as a "game" with RPG elements. Add paths for the players, add characters, lore and stories for them to engage with. Treat it as an opportunity to build your world with endless possibilities, and then, taking all that and what you've learned, cut it down to the story you want to submit. Any way you do this, you're going to have to rewrite a lot if you want to transform it from an open adult experience to a published novel.

Lastly, I'd like to recommend two stories that I think may be helpful to you:

- The "Brotherband Chronicles" series by John Flanagan, specifically the first book "The Outcasts", I think it could provide good reference material for the apprentice section of the game.

- "Magium", it's a mobile, text-based RPG. The lore and writing of it is for the most part very, very good, and I think it does a lot of stuff well that you're trying to do here. It might be worth a look, though it is far smaller in scope than your intents.
I see that Magium was actually self-published in novel form.

On second thought, I will likely need the inventory feature in order for the economic plot line to work.
 
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I see that Magium was actually self-published in novel form.

On second thought, I will likely need the inventory feature in order for the economic plot line to work.
It was. The mobile RPG plays very much like a DnD campaign (not surprising, the app directly says it's DnD inspired) with several different stat options and methods of addressing issues, some of the plot forks are surprisingly large based on player choice, but it all comes back to a single overarching plot. The novel follows what route the writer felt was most true to the MC as he envisioned him, so while it's enjoyable it does unfortunately miss out on some pieces of writing I really liked, but that's unavoidable.

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The largest difference between your game and the Magium RPG, I believe, is that yours intends to feature more freedom - more MC definition (Magium names the MC "Barry"...it's an ongoing joke about how dull his name is, but man do I hate being named "Barry" in a world of magic), the options of immoral actions*...I also believe you have intentions of sandbox mechanics (which is what "The Monastery" project was for, developing and experimenting with that, if I'm not mistaken), while Magium would always sweep the player along with the plot - though that made a lot of sense for the setting, Magium immediately established urgency so it feels organic for you to always be on the move.

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Like I said, I think it's a great reference for you but it does have some differences. It's also not as though the writing is perfect, it has a few inconsistencies and lines fall flat occasionally, but honestly? Damn good.
 
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It was. The mobile RPG plays very much like a DnD campaign (not surprising, the app directly says it's DnD inspired) with several different stat options and methods of addressing issues, some of the plot forks are surprisingly large based on player choice, but it all comes back to a single overarching plot. The novel follows what route the writer felt was most true to the MC as he envisioned him, so while it's enjoyable it does unfortunately miss out on some pieces of writing I really liked, but that's unavoidable.

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The largest difference between your game and the Magium RPG, I believe, is that yours intends to feature more freedom - more MC definition (Magium names the MC "Barry"...it's an ongoing joke about how dull his name is, but man do I hate being named "Barry" in a world of magic), the options of immoral actions*...I also believe you have intentions of sandbox mechanics (which is what "The Monastery" project was for, developing and experimenting with that, if I'm not mistaken), while Magium would always sweep the player along with the plot - though that made a lot of sense for the setting, Magium immediately established urgency so it feels organic for you to always be on the move.

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Like I said, I think it's a great reference for you but it does have some differences. It's also not as though the writing is perfect, it has a few inconsistencies and lines fall flat occasionally, but honestly? Damn good.
Cool. Makes sense!

Where I'm currently at with v0.0.7, I've got some of the sandbox feature beginning to culminate. I've also got some smut meshing with the setting.

Hopefully the next update will give players a better idea of my vision.
 
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Woild it be possible to make this:

View attachment 2890214

Into check boxes?

Would help further customize what content players want.

Just a quick idea that i got.
Yeah, that's a good idea. :)

I actually just created a fetish filter in v0.0.7, which will replace the last of those four options and also make it more granular.

So I will only need two check boxes in that passage.
 
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Cool. Makes sense!

Where I'm currently at with v0.0.7, I've got some of the sandbox feature beginning to culminate. I've also got some smut meshing with the setting.

Hopefully the next update will give players a better idea of my vision.
By this do you mean you're inserting smut into the story, or that the smut writings found in the navigation are going to have something written with the setting in mind?.

Yeah, that's a good idea. :)

I actually just created a fetish filter in v0.0.7, which will replace the last of those four options and also make it more granular.

So I will only need two check boxes in that passage.
Gotta earn that necrophilia tag after all lmao.
 
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By this do you mean you're inserting smut into the story, or that the smut writings found in the navigation are going to have something written with the setting in mind?.



Gotta earn that necrophilia tag after all lmao.
I've revised some of the smut in the navigation page to fit the setting and character creation variables. I've currently completed 26% of that, although I may not be able to find places in the current setting for all of it at this time. I'll find out.

Yeah, the necro tag is currently just for the insanity route, which taints my mind to work on... There will likely be more necro once MC has the option to
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Woild it be possible to make this:

View attachment 2890214

Into check boxes?

Would help further customize what content players want.

Just a quick idea that i got.
I have now incorporated this suggestion and also applied check boxes to genitalia. Fingers crossed that I got the code right on the first try. :p Since players can conceivably uncheck all boxes, this means that a character can be created without genitalia or sexual interests (read as: Eunuch roleplay). Not sure if I want to write those passages... I guess I could simply filter available passages instead.

Example:
1693536097676.png

If your character is gay, bi, or enjoys anything with a pulse (frankly I think that statement misses out on the opportunity for zombie sex, but that's just me) then they can molest their roommate while they sleep.
"Anything with a pulse" has now been revised to "non-human creatures." Side note: Zombie sex would count as necro too, right?
 
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I have now incorporated this suggestion and also applied check boxes to genitalia. Fingers crossed that I got the code right on the first try. :p
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Since players can conceivably uncheck all boxes, this means that a character can be created without genitalia or sexual interests (read as: Eunuch roleplay). Not sure if I want to write those passages... I guess I could simply filter available passages instead.
This depends on how you want to write the smut scenes. Generally, I think if you write them with something specific in mind they're going to lead to higher quality, but you can write more generic dynamic scenes, "Azrael reached down to cup your [player's gentials here]." A combination of these may lead to the best outcome, providing content of all kinds, but also allowing emphasis and quality on the more common scenes and those you have more interest in writing.

Zombie sex would count as necro too, right?
It's funny you say this. At one point, while playing a zombie game with a few friends, I posed this question. Is it necrophilia? They're called the "living dead", so are they dead or living? I still haven't reached a conclusion and they mute me on Discord whenever I bring it up because none of them want to hear it lmao. For the purposes of the "fetish filter" it's probably best to consider it as such.
 
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Sure. Players interested in the writing can utilize the porn (read as nukige) filter, which disables the genital customization feature.

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Magic is a fine answer. I already wrote one transformation scene. But I was realistically thinking, "more character customization is better" as a general concept without any more thought than that. I think that players like customizing characters and accept it as a game mechanic that doesn't always require a backstory. And it won't be a focus of the narrative anyway. The character just is, because you created him/her that way.

This depends on how you want to write the smut scenes. Generally, I think if you write them with something specific in mind they're going to lead to higher quality, but you can write more generic dynamic scenes, "Azrael reached down to cup your [player's gentials here]." A combination of these may lead to the best outcome, providing content of all kinds, but also allowing emphasis and quality on the more common scenes and those you have more interest in writing.
So far, I've been writing specific scenes with something particular in mind and then revising them later to accommodate all possible character variables. I was thinking that instead, I may simply filter out certain passage options for characters with incompatible traits. Adding some more generic scenes could offer more variety while also speeding up the development process. Not a bad idea...

It's funny you say this. At one point, while playing a zombie game with a few friends, I posed this question. Is it necrophilia? They're called the "living dead", so are they dead or living? I still haven't reached a conclusion and they mute me on Discord whenever I bring it up because none of them want to hear it lmao. For the purposes of the "fetish filter" it's probably best to consider it as such.
Yeah, it's definitely necro.

I will say, this is not at all what came across from the game's previous or current iteration. "Player Stats", "Inventory", "Spells"...everything about it screams RPG, especially your statements regarding the MC being a blank slate for the player to make personality-defining decisions on.
I've given some more thought to this comment and come to the following conclusion. In order for this game to work, it will have to be an RPG. I was on the right track to begin with. That means including mechanics such as item inventory, resource management, skills, stats, relationship progression, and moral alignment. However, I still need to write the narrative and craft the world before I bother with programming them. It does make me lean slightly more towards second-person (and against head hopping), but I believe third-person can still work if done right. And if it doesn't, I can always switch back later. This conversation has been super helpful in ironing out my three-thousand foot view of what the game should look like when it's done.
 
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The setting at the opening is the MC scavenging in a junkyard for items to sell with the goal of assisting their family's financial situation. I could understand this if they were a few years younger, but for legal reasons, they're just a few hours shy of 18 at this point...wouldn't it be more effective to...get a job?

The junkyard mostly seems to be a setup for finding the necklace. The necklace is shown to switch between blue and red shortly before it sinks into the MC. We can assume then that the red and blue affinities the MC possesses are a result of the necklace, presumably because it houses Hemera and Achlys. My question here is primarily...why is such a clearly important artifact sitting in a junkyard? Especially if the two voices spoken about in the prelude are also Hemera and Achlys - did they just flush Dagon's body out the back after he ate Percy and it somehow ended up there?
An attempt at fixing this issue is now present in v0.0.7.
 
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Magic is a fine answer. I already wrote one transformation scene. But I was realistically thinking, "more character customization is better" as a general concept without any more thought than that. I think that players like customizing characters and accept it as a game mechanic that doesn't always require a backstory. And it won't be a focus of the narrative anyway. The character just is, because you created him/her that way.
If that's how you want to present it, absolutely. I bring it up as a consideration, but as I said, it really isn't that big of a deal and definitely not something many players are going to analyze.

So far, I've been writing specific scenes with something particular in mind and then revising them later to accommodate all possible character variables. I was thinking that instead, I may simply filter out certain passage options for characters with incompatible traits. Adding some more generic scenes could offer more variety while also speeding up the development process. Not a bad idea...
Writing and revising scenes will for the most part lead to higher quality, but generic scenes could be implemented for more player freedom, which is sometimes more important - you can come back and flesh out those scenes manually in the future if you choose. In that vein, another potential use would be providing generic scenes as placeholders until they're fully written, which would allow you to ship and receive feedback on new parts of the game before you write out a large number of scenes you may end up deciding to change.

The filter concept could work to an extent, but I worry the flow of the scene may end up suffering. Let's say there's a handjob, well, what about the players without a penis? You could filter out that line...but there's a certain obligation to provide an alternative for that subset of players. Effectively, you end up writing variations of possibilities anyway - but without revising the rest of the scene, so you basically end up where you were but with a less-focused scene.

I think the best approach would be a combination of generic and purposefully written scenes in your current method, with the former potentially swapped out for the latter at a later date.

Yeah, it's definitely necro.
Another vote for the necro camp...is what I say, but the vast majority of people I've asked have been in that camp...I'm starting to think I'm the only one seriously considering this question.

I've given some more thought to this comment and come to the following conclusion. In order for this game to work, it will have to be an RPG. I was on the right track to begin with. That means including mechanics such as item inventory, resource management, skills, stats, relationship progression, and moral alignment. However, I still need to write the narrative and craft the world before I bother with programming them. It does make me lean slightly more towards second-person (and against head hopping), but I believe third-person can still work if done right. And if it doesn't, I can always switch back later. This conversation has been super helpful in ironing out my three-thousand foot view of what the game should look like when it's done.
I would agree on a narrative and world focus first, primarily because it allows you to identify what systems you need to implement to support the experience rather than having features for the sake of features. Not every RPG needs every system. There are quite a few ways to handle all of those aspects if they become necessary; so as long as you know what you want out of them, they shouldn't prove too challenging.

Maintaining third-person is a bold choice. I do agree it can be done, my caution would be to take care that it doesn't start to feel like the game is speaking at the player, they need to maintain their input on the character's thoughts and actions.

I'm glad it could help you. Often with projects it's suprisingly easy to have a clear image of the end, but the muddy details in-between are the real work.
 
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