Ren'Py Abandoned The DeLuca Family [Season 1] [HopesGaming]

[Mr. Darke]

I would not say it is an 'absolutely' synonm for pornography but it is however very much linked together.

The word "cool" is a synonym for "good". Is that it's only meaning? No. In fact, it's other meaning has nothing at all to do with being good. It simply refers to temperature.

But yes, one of the other meanings of the word "cool" is absolutely a synonym for "good".

So no, it is not debatable whether one of the meanings of "adult" is as a synonym for "porn". It is, and it has been for over a decade. Is that "adult"'s only meaning. As I said before, of course not... but yes, it is in fact ONE OF its meanings.

But, it is true. Adult is very much linked to something sexual. BUT no one is saying anything different.

When you are saying things like "adult" is not a synonym for "porn" and people are agreeing... when others keep saying things that imply they're confused by the reactions of others for not liking this game because they expected porn... or like if someone expected this to be a porn game, that's their fault... then yes, these type of reactions only make sense if we're trying to act as though one of the term's meanings hasn't been synonymous with porn.

What is being said is that the FOCUS (main theme) is not necessarily on the porn. An adult movie is about how explicit the scenes can be.

That's your game. That's a very small portion of other things, but the overwhelming majority of "adult film" and things listed as "adult game", even on this site, refers to things of a pornographic nature. Google "adult film" and overwhelmingly, the results will be pornographic.

And that's fine if you've chosen to focus on a different aspect of "adult theme" and that's great as clearly many people like that kind of thing, but it is wrong, absolutely wrong, to act as though there's no association between the two terms and like people are foolish for linking them; they are not.

This I heavily disagree with. If this was a 0.01 release with zero information out there- yes, I would've agreed.
But reading the reviews, comments, OP, Faq, tags, my patreon front page, etc. and you will clearly get an idea that this is an adult game where the focus is not on the sex.

The fact a person has to do all that, or any of that, to know what your game is clearly about actually proves the point because 99% of the time, they don't. They'd simply be able to download a game from this site without reading anything and chances are, it will come off as if pornographic content was intended to be in the game.

But for YOUR game they have to do all this looking into. So no Hopes, it is not their fault that they do something the way most people do things, the way they've been doing things and they've been right most of the time, and this time they were wrong.

So when someone blindly downloads my game and expect it to be how they want it to be instead of reading what it actually is-

You're the one doing something different, not them. Your creation is what is out of the ordinary here, not them. And nothing is wrong with that, but it is wrong, to expect them to do something different (or ore accurately, think them wrong for not doing anything different from what they've done before) just because you did.

It's their fault 100% and I will always have a dislike for those kinds of people.

And they'll likely always have a dislike for you so you can both dislike each other, both being stubborn and hypocritical, lol.

THEM: "How dare he make a game with no porn in it!"

YOU: "How dare they play my game expecting it to be pornographic in nature!"

And neither of you are in the right to dislike the other, lol. Neither of you are technically wrong in what you did, but the both of your mentalities are incorrect. The mentality that only porn games belong here is incorrect... the mentality that people are wrong to expect a porn game here, is also incorrect.

You get upset when they judge you, but you sound very judgmental of them.

Some of them are, while other of them are extremely toxic due to the lack of porn.

Yeah, because they expected one thing and got another. And yes, even though they were wrong about what to expect, it makes sense what they thought they would find here. I'm not saying their reaction is the correct one, I'm saying it is understandable. I'm saying that if you weren't being overly defensive and others being overly defensive for you, we would know/have that basic understanding.

And the phone analogy does not make sense as you are making it clear that it is a phone shop (porn game) that does not sell phones (porn). Which is a ridiculous analogy.

Hopes, I like you, I appreciate what you've done here even if it turns out it isn't my style of game in the end because clearly plenty of people like it and it takes a great deal of talent to do what you've done here... but this was a very hypocritical statement.

Now, part of me thinks that while your statement appears hypocritical, it actually occurred because you're overly defensive and didn't try to understand the analogy, but allow me to explain it further here so that we can try to avoid misundertandings.

I said Phone Store and Apple Service Center

Yes, the store sells phones... no, it doesn't sell APPLE phones but Apple is not the only kind of phone out that exists. There are a lot of other kinds of phones. This store just doesn't sell Apple phones. It services them sure, but it doesn't sell them nor does the sign claim they sell APPLE phones.

You know... like how technically you aren't wrong for saying that this is an adult game, because it is... but the label would understandably make people assume that there's pornographic content in your game? You know, like how there's not just one meaning to "adult themed" technically... there's not just one kind of phone?

I mean, the label technically even fooled you... in a completely different direction, but it fooled/confused you nonetheless.

Your analogy however, is in a number of ways...

A better analogy would be; ice cream shop (18+ shop) now some shops sell only vanilla (pure porn) and another shop only sells chocolate (adult game).

No, it would be like if there was a specific type of ice cream shop. We'll make this up and call it a "nice and thick shop". Now for well over a decade, these shops have traditionally sold ice cream that was so thick, you couldn't use a plastic spoon on them, if a spoon at all. You go looking for one of these kinds of shops and without reading reviews or anything like that, you have a 98% chance of getting ice cream so thick that you're not going to be able to use a spoon to eat it. It's lick it or metal spoon it.

Now there's another shop, it's listed in all the directories as a nice and thick shop... but the ice cream is not as thick as what is traditionally found at these types of shops. It's thicker than regular ice cream, but not by much. Technically, they're not wrong for advertising themselves as a nice and thick shop as thick style ice creams are technically any ice cream that is thicker than regular ice cream... but the thickness of this ice cream is not in line with what most people have come to expect when entering these shops.

They both sell ice cream but it is about flavor.

Alright, we could do flavor. It would be like how most of the time, when shops say "chocolate" ice cream, they sell pure chocolate ice cream... but another shop's chocolate ice cream has other stuff in it. Technically speaking, chocolate ice cream that contains sprinkles, would still be chocolate ice cream... but there would be people quite upset when they found those sprinkles... or technically a person can call ice cream that has chocolate sprinkled in it, chocolate ice cream.

Now, an entitled brat enters the chocolate shop and demands it to sell vanilla.

They aren't entitled in an accurate analogy. And furthermore, most of the people I've seen comment regarding this aspect of your game clearly state they aren't trying to get you to change what you're selling; they're just explaining why they felt misled. This inaccurate analogy would have been slightly more accurate if this read as

"Now someone, because of what they're used to getting from most other ice cream shops in this mall/area/whatever, complain because it only sells chocolate ice cream.

Even though there is a huge banner outside that clearly says 'CHOCOLATE ONLY SHOP'.

100% incorrect parallel here because your title for this game is like your store's sign and your game doesn't have (not a porn game) in its title. Title wise, your game looks no different from other games that just as easily could have been more pornographic in nature.

In fact, even once someone walks into your shop (looks at the first post made by you) the shop still isn't saying that it doesn't carry vanilla ice cream. Oh no, to figure that out a person would have to do what the vast majority of people don't do and that's go look at reviews for your shop. They'd have to sift through over 400 pages of comments... rather than do what they would normally do and just order based on the sign and maybe what they see at the front door / looking at the menu.

Yet the brat is stomping his feet and yelling, going to shop sites to give it a low review, and even going as far as attacking the people that like the chocolate shop because there is no vanilla flavor.

Yeah... like how you, and others, stomp their feet and demand they instantly accept your view of something, that while not wrong, is not the norm... and go as far as attacking the people that don't like this game because they don't agree with its content or lack their of.

Again, it's wrong to be attacking or judging anyone here because no one is technically wrong for their view in this situation but they are wrong in their view of the people holding opposing views. They shouldn't be attacking you and you really shouldn't be attacking them.

As mentioned above. I have done everything to make sure to tell people what this game is.

No you haven't and even as mentioned above, according to you, you expect comments and reviews to do what you could have done. Your first post doesn't say anything about this not being a porn game.

Your patreon, you have to go looking for the information and once you do, this is all you'll find:

Q. Where's the sex?!
A. This game is a bit different from the rest as it is not solely an adult game. The story is as much part of the game as the adult part. Therefore do not expect to have the girls go crazy about you right away. With that said, there will be plenty of bed action down the line.


Not even here do you say anything like, "this is not a porn game", "I don't intend for this to be a porn game", and or "this is not a porn game at this time".

Oh no, not anything like that and not anywhere easily found... but you want to know what is really telling about this passage from your patreon page?: The fact that YOU use the word "adult" to mean porn/sex. You didn't answer with "it is important to understand that adult doesn't always mean sex and or porn", or anything like that.

F95zone has done everything on their part to tell what this game is (reviews, comments, TAGS)

It's not on them to make sure people understand what this game is and what it isn't before they download it, it's not their game. It's yours and so it is on you. One misunderstanding is one thing. You can write that off, deal with it on an individual bases, but even you expected people to not understand and you didn't think to maybe put that information at the first post and or in the title?

Are you wrong for not doing those things? Not really, but at the same time, you clearly didn't do all you could have done. In fact, it seems you did everything outside of what would have been the most basic and effective ways to address this matter which would have been to make it clear in the title and the first post.

If all of those things are not enough- what is? Why even have any informational stuff if we base our whole lifeon baseless expectations.

They aren't baseless expectations. You can disagree with the expectations, but they are far from baseless.

This is not a porn site. This is an adult site. I don't agree that these two things are the same.

You don't have to agree, it is a fact , that the term "adult" especially when paired with other words such as "game", "film", and "actress" is often (more often than not in fact), synonymous with porn.

Notice how some games have the 'no sex' tag. (can't remember the name of the tag)
Why would the site have tags that say no sex when it is supposedly a pure porn site?

I challenge you to find anywhere, where I've said this was a pure porn site. But to answer your question anyway, they would do it because they know most people would be expecting sex in these games... because it's labeled as an adult game site and most of the time that means porn game... so you need tags to warn people of that being the case.

Point is, let the owner of the site be the ones that determine what the site is for.

Not one thing I've said even remotely implied otherwise to be the case so saying this in response to anything I've said makes no logical sense at all.

Because it would be stupid to go to each thread and write "This is a porn game, lot's of sex."
And then another thread "This is not a porn game, lot's of story"

Wrong. Doing the first thing is obviously unnecessary in a place like this one. Generally speaking, people already associate "adult" and "porn" and have been for over a decade and the vast majority of games here, search results, etc are in fact games of a pornographic nature (and or they pass themselves off as such).

You do things different when you are different. As many comments here have indicated, this is a different type of game from what is normally found here. Even people that defend you, whether they realize it or not, say things that make it clear this game is not the norm here. So a game that is not a porn game here, if they really care about reducing confusion, absolutely would be upfront about the fact that they did not make a porn game.

You however, don't seem to care that you're confusing people. From your point of view, those who feel misled are beneath you and your fans. This isn't true. They aren't entitled brats and you aren't an entitled brat either.

That's why they have the tags. It's in the op. It clearly shows the current sexual stuff in the game.

It doesn't speak to how much is in the game, it doesn't exclusively make it clear there isn't much of those things in the game, the tags you have could easily be the same tags of another game featuring pornographic content. A person shouldn't have to go through all that to figure it out.

You could just tell them on your first post. You know, the place other than the title that has the absolute most chance of being looked at by people before they download your game... and even after when they start to wonder if there's sex happening. In fact, I'm willing to bet that 90%+ people that have commented asking if there's sex in this game, checked the first post for that answer.

See, this seems to me like you're more interested in taking some kind of stand rather than truly dealing with misunderstanding in a productive way. Of course it makes sense to put "This isn't a porn game" on the first post. It makes a whole lot more sense than expecting people to behave in a way that no other business expects them to. You're mad because of their "baseless" expectations... because of your baseless expectations of people. Do businesses just try to get on Google or Youtube? No, they try to make it on the first page because statistically speaking almost no one goes past that point. The same principles apply here and if you don't want to take reasonable precautions as a result, that's fine. That's your right, but then don't be mad at people for... well... being people, lol.

To end with, I respect your opinion, Drake, and please do not see it in any way or form an attack against you.

I'm not trying to attack you either nor do I not respect you... but, well, we all have or blindspots. If we could see them, they wouldn't be blindspots. One of yours, is clearly this, and while you are not wrong for making this game, calling it an adult game, and featuring it on this site... you are wrong to detest people for expecting it to be pornographic in nature. That expectation isn't baseless whether we agree with the expectation or not.

I just heavily disagree with what you're saying and will always detest those people...

...But acting like I am in the wrong for doing the game the way I want to do.

Just like you acting like they are wrong for having the expectations they have. That's the hypocrisy of it all.

I do whatever I want. (Targeted at the entitled brats not you, Drake)

I don't think you are, but I had to laugh because "doing whatever" one wants to do is kind of the definition of being entitled, lol.

But anyway, regardless, as others have stated, even when they don't like the absence of sex in your game, you should make the game the way you want. It's your game... but yes, there is a valid argument for feeling misled.

 

[Mr. Darke]

There is a breed of individuals who attempt to browbeat and force their agenda upon anyone they think they can buffalo. Even with the understanding that their position has no merit. To them it is a game to see how far they can push the boundaries... Loathsome creatures there only to cause division and strife hiding behind having an open discussion as venom drips from their lips.

And how exactly is there no merit to thinking "adult" is often synonymous with "porn"? Did you even bother to fully read my post? Please, tell me which aspects of what I said held no merit. I'm truly asking. To be clear, I'm not asking what you disagree with, I'm asking, what in my post, has no merit?

You see, because to me, there are always people that conflate disagreeing with something as being the same as that thing having no merit and or being wrong. Browbeat force their agenda? So what, people can disagree but only on the grounds that people like you find acceptable or else their trying to push their agenda rather than express an opinion?

I'm truly asking. Please elaborate on these things you're saying if you don't mind.

I'm confused by people who want to play any sort of visual novel, (which by definition requires reading), when they can't even manage to read the first post on a thread that tell them what the game is about.

Except, it doesn't say in the first post that this is not a pornographic game. It doesn't talk about the definition of "adult" also including other themes and how this game will focus primarily on that aspect. It doesn't even do as much as the patreon page which isn't all that clear either to be honest, but it would have been more than what is on the first page and clearer.

Stick to your guns, HG!

Sometimes, some people post in a way that makes me believe they don't even know what's going on, they just want a pat on the back /head. This is one such post. This isn't to say that you as a person are bad or stupid or anything like that, but maybe our desire to be fans can be a bit excessive and overly protective. It creates a cognitive bias of sorts. And despite popular opinion, it isn't always best to stick to our guns.

I'm not saying Hopes shouldn't stick to their guns on how to make their game (they 100% should make the game they like and love even if no one else likes it (which is far from the case), but it doesn't mean there aren't other areas where maybe they don't have to stick to said guns. At the very least, why not at least consider view points other than those we like?

 

[Mr.Qaywesdxc]

I still don't get this argument. I thought you can always check tags to see, what content is included, right? Or do only I have that privilege?

edit:
There are already 130 completed games, that are tagged "no sexual content" on this site.

 

[c3p0]

So no, it is not debatable whether one of the meanings of "adult" is as a synonym for "porn". It is, and it has been for over a decade. Is that "adult"'s only meaning. As I said before, of course not... but yes, it is in fact ONE OF its meanings.

Porn is not an equal term than adult and vice versa. And adult films and movies are not per se porn movie/games. They can and on different platfrom the ration is different. As example game for video game console, they have ratings that goes up to "adult", but you most never see a pornographic content in it and if, they usually comes a patch to keep their universe happy...

The fact a person has to do all that, or any of that, to know what your game is clearly about actually proves the point because 99% of the time, they don't. They'd simply be able to download a game from this site without reading anything and chances are, it will come off as if pornographic content was intended to be in the game

Two things come to my mind: "standard business conditions" and Lemmings. I don't think that many of us read the standard business conditions on a shopping website, but they there and you can't argument about them. Same goes for the normal laws.

I'm saying that if you weren't being overly defensive and others being overly defensive for you, we would know/have that basic understanding.

Are we? Perhaps, but I think, you think we are. I usually find it quiet interesting how many user know all this. I for myself often think I know something and believe that this is so, but then again, I'm also quiet sure I'm not normal

100% incorrect parallel here because your title for this game is like your store's sign and your game doesn't have (not a porn game) in its title. Title wise, your game looks no different from other games that just as easily could have been more pornographic in nature.

The game titles would be very long otherwise and not only this game. We have a tag system so we use it. Often it helps people to finde what they searching, but also often some of them doesn't read them and ask (has it NTR, has it no NTR, ....). My though if people would read more, think more and often look more, most time look on the same page of the thread before their beginn typing their post, then we would have much smaller threads here.

Yeah... like how you, and others, stomp their feet and demand they instantly accept your view of something, that while not wrong, is not the norm... and go as far as attacking the people that don't like this game because they don't agree with its content or lack their of.

I think this would include you also. Otherwise I don't believe you would write your own post in response to ours.

Not even here do you say anything like, "this is not a porn game", "I don't intend for this to be a porn game", and or "this is not a porn game at this time".

As I know, they game will have porn in it only in a later version. We are at the six iteration of the game, the game is in active development.

"Q. Where's the sex?!
A. This game is a bit different from the rest as it is not solely an adult game. The story is as much part of the game as the adult part. Therefore do not expect to have the girls go crazy about you right away. With that said, there will be plenty of bed action down the line.

If HopesGaming finished the game without any porn in it, I will invite you to a drink at my cost - drinks, not the voyage to obtain it.

It's not on them to make sure people understand what this game is and what it isn't before they download it, it's not their game. It's yours and so it is on you. One misunderstanding is one thing. You can write that off, deal with it on an individual bases, but even you expected people to not understand and you didn't think to maybe put that information at the first post and or in the title?

No its on him and for me he has done it. The reviews are not even his department as that are opinions form other users.
Also why should it be in the title? A title is a title, nothing more, nothing less. Although the title usually refer to it's content often this link is only clear after we have involed us with the content.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that 90%+ people that have commented asking if there's sex in this game, checked the first post for that answer.

Simple: proof it. I'm very logical person and I can also admit if I was wrong. But as a logical person I want a hard scientific proof first.

 

[JJJ84]

This ongoing argument is still leaving me scratching my head. I thought the tags on the OP post was pretty self-explanatory on what the game's content is with each new update (e.g. "oral sex" included with recent Isabel update etc), or is that just me?

 

[MonkeyLord]

Mr. Darke, before this argument get anymore off-topic, I just want to point out that so far, you've been leaning hard on two different argument fallacies: The Bandwagon Fallacy, and the Equivocation Fallacy.

Your entire argument has been, "The people who didn't bother even reading the OP or any of the tags, reviews, and getting butt-hurt after downloading something they could have avoided in the first place had they done any of the suggested things are not in the wrong simply because many do things the way they do." And "when people hear 'adult games/movies', they often think 'porn', so the 2 words are synonym."

In both cases, you're basically just saying, "because a lot of people are doing it, it must be the right thing to do". Don't wanna bring up Hitler and the Nazis, but that's one example we can all agree that a lot of people can be wrong.

Just because a lot of people are doing something, doesn't make it right.

Just because a lot of people make the assumption "adult" means "porn" doesn't mean that assumption is correct.

And just because a lot of people don't bother checking tags, OP, and reviews before clicking download, doesn't mean everyone should do the same.

 

[MonkeyLord]

This ongoing argument is still leaving me scratching my head. I thought the tags on the OP post was pretty self-explanatory on what the game's content is with each new update (e.g. "oral sex" included with recent Isabel update etc), or is that just me?

Ah, but you're assuming everyone can read. Contrary to popular beliefs, reading seems to be an advanced skills many are incapable of doing.

 

[Wild Red]

sry I'm new to this game, maybe its a stupid question, but do I need bugfix 1 and 2 ? I mean is it a bad idea to download it before running into those bugs?

 

[JJJ84]

sry I'm new to this game, maybe its a stupid question, but do I need bugfix 1 and 2 ? I mean is it a bad idea to download it before running into those bugs?

My advice is, only use Bugfix if you run into any problems. There have been some who encountered bugs during their play (such as some of Gracie's events), but I've never had to use any bugfix until now, so yeah. Only use bugfix if you run into an actual bug (and not because you haven't done a particular action required to proceed etc) that won't let you proceed in the game.

 

[Wild Red]

My advice is, only use Bugfix if you run into any problems. There have been some who encountered bugs during their play (such as some of Gracie's events), but I've never had to use any bugfix until now, so yeah. Only use bugfix if you run into an actual bug (and not because you haven't done a particular action required to proceed etc) that won't let you proceed in the gane.

alright, thank you

 

[yltohawk]

And how exactly is there no merit to thinking "adult" is often synonymous with "porn"? Did you even bother to fully read my post? Please, tell me which aspects of what I said held no merit. I'm truly asking. To be clear, I'm not asking what you disagree with, I'm asking, what in my post, has no merit?

You see, because to me, there are always people that conflate disagreeing with something as being the same as that thing having no merit and or being wrong. Browbeat force their agenda? So what, people can disagree but only on the grounds that people like you find acceptable or else their trying to push their agenda rather than express an opinion?

I'm truly asking. Please elaborate on these things you're saying if you don't mind.



Except, it doesn't say in the first post that this is not a pornographic game. It doesn't talk about the definition of "adult" also including other themes and how this game will focus primarily on that aspect. It doesn't even do as much as the patreon page which isn't all that clear either to be honest, but it would have been more than what is on the first page and clearer.



Sometimes, some people post in a way that makes me believe they don't even know what's going on, they just want a pat on the back /head. This is one such post. This isn't to say that you as a person are bad or stupid or anything like that, but maybe our desire to be fans can be a bit excessive and overly protective. It creates a cognitive bias of sorts. And despite popular opinion, it isn't always best to stick to our guns.

I'm not saying Hopes shouldn't stick to their guns on how to make their game (they 100% should make the game they like and love even if no one else likes it (which is far from the case), but it doesn't mean there aren't other areas where maybe they don't have to stick to said guns. At the very least, why not at least consider view points other than those we like?

Hopes and you were having a discussion; I myself was not referring to you specifically. If I had a issue with you I would have replied directly to your comment and not on hopes comments.

 

[DarkinScythe]

I still don't get this argument. I thought you can always check tags to see, what content is included, right? Or do only I have that privilege?

edit:
There are already 130 completed games, that are tagged "no sexual content" on this site.

This ongoing argument is still leaving me scratching my head. I thought the tags on the OP post was pretty self-explanatory on what the game's content is with each new update (e.g. "oral sex" included with recent Isabel update etc), or is that just me?

And just because a lot of people don't bother checking tags, OP, and reviews before clicking download, doesn't mean everyone should do the same.

Tags don't tell everything though. Let's say that two games both have oral sex tags, but one of them has e.g. 20 oral sex scenes and the other has only one, how can you tell the difference just by looking at tags? They clearly don't have the same amount of sexual content but have the same tags.

The dev and you guys are not wrong but the people who play this game expecting there to be more than one sex scene are not wrong either

 

[Mr. Darke]

Whatever else he has, HopesGaming , has firmly and concisely laid out what features his game would and would not have.

In the comment section but not the first post. It isn’t concisely laid out that one shouldn’t expect this game to be non-pornographic. The rest of your post, like others, try to make this into things it is not. It is not about anyone telling Hopes what kind of game to make and or what game belongs here. It’s only to say 2 things that regardless of the insistence of various people, are true regardless of their opinions:

1.) Whether one agrees with the expectation or not, it is not baseless and it does make sense that people would download this game thinking it was a porn game.
2.) It could easily be made clearer that it isn’t a porn game, especially in places that people are far more likely to look.

Whether accurate or not, one would have a valid argument to think this information being left off the two most looked at areas was intentional so people would try their game regardless because we know there are plenty of people that wouldn’t have even tried this game if the title read something like The DeLuca Family [v0.06.1] [not porn] [HopesGaming] or if in the first post, near the top it said something like: This game is more story focused than sex focused than sex based. While in later updates there will eventually be plenty of opportunity to bed people, this game isn’t intended to be a porn game.

I still don't get this argument. I thought you can always check tags to see, what content is included, right? Or do only I have that privilege?

And I don’t get what this has to do with the fact that:
1.) It makes sense for people to assume this a porn game.
2.) It could be easier to make it clear that it isn’t a porn game, by laying this fact out in the first post, near the top.

I mean, can Hopes not add information to the first post… or do only certain developers have that privilege?

There are already 130 completed games, that are tagged "no sexual content" on this site.

Not even remotely relevant to anything I’ve pointed out. 130 out of how many games? And what do any of those 130 have to do with this one exactly?

Also, people keep talking about these tags… which none of them say this isn’t a porn game and all of those tags could easily be used in games that have pornographic content.

This means that the tags do not, in anyway, make it clear this is not a pornographic game.

 

[Mr. Darke]

First off, thank you for taking the time to reply to me and I also appreciate your civility. I also apologize for the length of my responses but I prefer to be thorough so that it is clear that I'm reading what is being written and, more importantly, show I understood what was written... and if I didn't, it should be easier for someone to address where they feel they were misunderstood by me. That said...

Porn is not an equal term than adult and vice versa. And adult films and movies are not per se porn movie/games.

Except they clearly are since that it primarily what you will get for search results in any search engine. So yes, whether you like it or not ONE of the accepted definition of the word “adult”, especially when paired with words like “film”, “actress”, “film star”, and or “game”… is “porn”. This is so true that even Hopes used it in that way on their patreon.

In fact, the word “adult” is often used as a way to say “porn” without saying “porn” so this isn’t just one of the accepted definitions, this is the definition most people use in that context. If you say to someone “I’m going to look up some adult games to play or look for some adult movies to watch while I’m quarantined”, most people, by far, will assume the speaker means porn.

And if that isn’t you and was never you, kudos, but to pretend the above isn’t true is so disingenuous.

They can and on different platfrom the ration is different. As example game for video game console, they have ratings that goes up to "adult", but you most never see a pornographic content in it and if, they usually comes a patch to keep their universe happy...

Since I’m not saying that the definition can’t mean other things, this is irrelevant. One of the accepted definitions of the word “cool” is a synonym for “good”.

Replying to that statement with something akin to “Cool can mean something that is good, but sometimes it doesn’t”, doesn’t make any sense. Responding this way and or pointing that out when someone is explaining to you that regardless of how you personally use or don’t use the word “cool” it makes sense that others use it differently because etc, also doesn’t make sense.

Or more importantly, it doesn’t invalidate anything I’ve stated and doesn’t show a lack of merit in my statements.

Two things come to my mind: "standard business conditions" and Lemmings. I don't think that many of us read the standard business conditions on a shopping website, but they there and you can't argument about them. Same goes for the normal laws.

Actually, you can argue about them. In fact, there have been judges, lawyers, and other legal experts that have argued for decades that a EULA wasn’t enforceable because it was unreasonable to expect people to read the agreement. In fact, sometimes a contract is held as unenforceable if it is deemed to not use language that is clear enough to be understood.

This isn’t to say that no one holds opposing beliefs on this matter, just pointing out that your argument, that those agreements can’t be argued, is factually incorrect.

Are we? Perhaps, but I think, you think we are. I usually find it quiet interesting how many user know all this. I for myself often think I know something and believe that this is so, but then again, I'm also quiet sure I'm not normal

Yes, Hopes has been overly defensive at times and others over protective of them. As a result, we’re suddenly confused by people being confused about what this game is about. Suddenly, we’re arguing that a term, that for over a decade has been used in place of another word is suddenly not ever (or in fact, mostly) synonymous with that word it is often used interchangeably with. Those are markers for over protective/defensive.

The game titles would be very long otherwise and not only this game.

This argument is irrelevant to anything that I’ve said and has no merit.

It’s irrelevant because it doesn’t change the fact that Hopes’ analogy was incorrect due to the fact that he said it was on the sign and it isn’t on the sign.

Your argument here has no merit because the length of the name is entirely irrelevant to whether or not one CAN add that to the title… well that, and “long” is entirely subjective. There are plenty of arguably “long titles” here on this site, so…

We have a tag system so we use it.

Does this tag system prevent people from putting information in the first post? I see people repeating the tag system but never addressing my points regarding the tag system:

1.) We also have a forum posting system, we could use that too in this case. To my knowledge, putting information on one part of this place doesn’t stop one from being able to put it somewhere else.

2.) The tags here do not in anyway mean a game isn’t pornographic. In fact, these exact same tags could be used on a game that is pornographic in nature.

3.) The title and the first post, are where most people are going to look more than anywhere else… by far. We know this. This is fact. So let me put it this way…

If the only thing Hopes did was put it in the title like: The DeLuca Family [v0.06.1] [not porn] [HopesGaming]

It would likely have had more of an impact than all the reviews, tags, and comments combined. In fact, while I am not saying that this is the case, one could argue the reason to leave that information out at the start was intentional so people would try the game anyway and fall in love with it because it is a fact that many people wouldn’t have bothered downloading the game in the first place if they saw upfront this wasn’t porn.

If it was in the title and or the first post, everyone saying it’s someone else’s fault if they’re misled here would be 100% correct… but the information being in places that most people won’t look makes that false.

My though if people would rzead more, think more and often look more, most time look on the same page of the thread before their beginn typing their post, then we would have much smaller threads here.

This argument basically amounts to, “If people would behave less like how majority of people behave most of the time, none of this would happen” and this is an absurd argument to make. People are going to be people. Every single business and entity is aware of this and they plan for it, sometimes taking advantage of this/these fact(s). It isn’t a coincidence that drug ads say rapidly and at the end of commercials what their side effects are or that certain details that might be considered negative are often written in the fine print.

It’s like, technically they aren’t doing anything wrong by using these methods… but people aren’t wrong for not knowing things that aren’t laid right before them in the places they are far more likely to look/listen.

I think this would include you also. Otherwise I don't believe you would write your own post in response to ours.

And you would obviously be wrong because me responding is not the same as me “stomping” nor is it me “attacking” anyone. Me pointing out that certain things are factually wrong also do not fall into this category. However, saying you detest people, blaming them for things, implying their dumb and or crazy for being misled, and or calling them things like “entitled brats”, or referring to them as a negative type of breed of people… those things are very much actual examples of those negative things mentioned by Hopes.

This is also a marker for being overly defensive by the way; seeing something as an attack or something else negative, when it isn’t. I’m expressing facts and also providing dissenting opinion. Responses like yours here make it seem like that kind of thing isn’t allowed here unless its confined to your standards/beliefs.

If HopesGaming finished the game without any porn in it, I will invite you to a drink at my cost - drinks, not the voyage to obtain it.

I don’t care if Hopes puts any porn in this game or not. It’s their game. They should do whatever it is they want… but as I keep pointing out, it is wrong to say these two things:

1.) It’s a person’s fault for expecting porn in this game, right now… it’s also not wrong for Hopes to have no porn in the game.

2.) It is incorrect to say that Hopes did everything they could to avoid confusion. They clearly didn’t and none of your arguments, not even theirs, goes against that fact. In fact, regardless as to the reason, Hopes has made it clear they intentionally won’t try to make it clearer. I assume to stick to their guns at this point?

At this point, the ONLY thing you’re all arguing against when you’re arguing against me is simply adding in the first post what this game is and what they intend for it to be and that makes no sense given it wouldn’t change anything else other than probably reducing the number of people that get frustrated when they discover there’s no porn in this game.

We would still have the tags, comments, reviews, etc… but why not also add one or two sentences to the first post? Why are you all so angry and adamant about such a move? What is the rational there?

No its on him and for me he has done it. T

So even though it would likely make it clearer for even more people (since not everyone is like you) they just shouldn’t do it because at least c3p0 is taken care of?

Okay, I was being cheeky there but my point is, there are obviously a significant number of people who were confused. Even some of the people that gave this game 5 stars, say things in the review that make it clear to me that they were initially (sometimes still seem to be) confused. If it takes practically no effort to make things clearer for even more people, why not do it?

Also why should it be in the title? A title is a title, nothing more, nothing less. Although the title usually refer to it's content often this link is only clear after we have involed us with the content.

You answered your own question because it often refers to the content. It’s not a question of why should it be… as much as, why not?

There’s nothing about a title that makes it to where it is wrong to include that info there… just like it isn’t wrong not to include that information there… but would it have helped in this case? Oh, absolutely. As I pointed out before, I know there were people that skimmed the first post after clicking on the title, played the game for hours, found no real pornography… came back to the thread, checked out the first post, saw nothing indicating this wasn’t meant to be a pornographic game… AND THEN posted.

Simple: proof it. I'm very logical person and I can also admit if I was wrong. But as a logical person I want a hard scientific proof first.

You’re not being logical here. In fact, there was nothing logical about this statement/request either. You can’t prove everything. It’s an unreasonable request to ask me to prove my theory, but it also doesn’t mean I’m wrong.

But you need proof that most people don’t look past the first post? Truth be told, when people read at all, they’ll likely not go past the first 2 paragraphs or so of the first post.
Do you need proof that most people don’t look at comments or reviews?
Are you trying to say that you don’t believe that more people look at the first post than they do tags, reviews, and or comments?
Are you trying to say that no one did as I described?

If you are saying any of the above, you aren’t being logical. The closest to being logical you could come while disagreeing with what I’ve said there is to say you just don’t know, but even that comes dangerously close to being illogical as it ignores principles that people /businesses capitalize on and have been saying practically forever.

 

[mahmouedsamy]

If you have any problems, you can post your save, I will take a look.

Or anybody else.

i del all files re download it works

 

[Mr. Darke]

This ongoing argument is still leaving me scratching my head. I thought the tags on the OP post was pretty self-explanatory on what the game's content is with each new update (e.g. "oral sex" included with recent Isabel update etc), or is that just me?

Mine too, because I’m not sure why this would prevent making things even clearer. Unless one’s argument (and this would be wrong) that there’s nothing else reasonable that could be done to make it clearer that this isn’t a porn game, not sure why you all keep bringing up tags. It isn’t just you, but it obviously isn’t just one person that was still confused even with the tags. It’s head scratching that on one side people are arguing “Is it just me or can’t you do this and that or that and this?” thus feeling like it is enough that they were catered too… while arguing against the idea of simply making things even clearer with one or two more sentences or even just two added words in the title.

It’s like, is it just me, or wouldn’t it be easy to do this and it wouldn’t harm the people that already like this game and or would still give it a try… but also make it easier for people to recognize this isn’t what they’re looking for?


And oh dear God, someone actually… brought up Hitler. What in the absolute, the absolute F-? Lmao, yeah… to the person saying “maybe we might be overly defensive” someone brought up, LMAO, fuckin Hitler. Yeah, overly defensive.

Your entire argument has been, "The people who didn't bother even reading the OP or any of the tags, reviews, and getting butt-hurt after downloading something they could have avoided in the first place had they done any of the suggested things are not in the wrong simply because many do things the way they do." And "when people hear 'adult games/movies', they often think 'porn', so the 2 words are synonym."

Typical human fallacy to be unable to accurately say the opposing argument. You went wrong on the part in red and it is a very important thing here because I literally have been saying the complete opposite of that statement. No MonkeyLord (cool name by the way (no sarcasm, I genuinely like it)), in fact, the problem is the first post doesn’t say any of the things Hopes has been saying after the fact throughout the comment section.

In both cases, you're basically just saying, "because a lot of people are doing it, it must be the right thing to do".

This is grossly incorrect. Saying something isn’t wrong… is not the same as calling it correct. Two things are however facts regarding this front:

1.) It isn’t wrong when a person expects this to be a porn game. Not saying they are correct to do so, but they certainly aren’t wrong… just like it isn’t wrong to not try to make things clearer, it isn’t right not to either.

2.) When it comes to the definitions of words, how they’re used is the only way they obtain definition. So yes, in the case of the meaning of a word, it is absolutely dependent on its use so in this case, the fact that it is not only often, but mainly used this way when paired with other words (to the point where Hopes used the term in this exact manner) does mean that is in fact ONE of the meanings of the word. ONE of the meanings. I’ll say it again, ONE OF THE MEANINGS… and it is completely false and or incorrect to claim that, while it has other definitions uses, that this is not one of them.

It would be just as incorrect to argue that “cool” meaning “good” and or being synonymous with it the word, is NOT ONE of its uses/meanings. It is.

Don't wanna bring up Hitler and the Nazis, but that's one example we can all agree that a lot of people can be wrong.

Not when it comes to words because that is literally the only way words gain meaning is when significant groups of people use them in such a manner.

And can we just pause for a minute and reflect on somehow someone, basically thinks bringing up Hitler is a reasonable argument here. Let’s think for a few moments about how someone is trying to argue that just because many people use the term “spare tire” to mean belly fat, particularly fat around the mid-section, it doesn’t mean those people are right to use the term that way… because… and get this… look what happened with Hitler?

Wow.

Just because a lot of people make the assumption "adult" means "porn" doesn't mean that assumption is correct.

I didn’t say the assumption was correct… I said it made sense. I said it’s a logical assumption. I said it was not a baseless assumption. I want everyone to notice what hasn’t been said anywhere there… that it was correct or right.

And just because a lot of people don't bother checking tags, OP, and reviews before clicking download, doesn't mean everyone should do the same.

No it doesn’t… which is probably why I didn’t even imply as much. But it isn’t just some games on here that are porn games… it’s most of them. It isn’t just some people that don’t read past the title and the first paragraph or two of the first post… it’s most of them. And yes, even all of you declaring how great you are because you read everything first or whatever… most of you work the exact same way because that is how most of us function. How do we know this? Because of decades of research, trial and error, and so businesses and advertising, and so much more, rely on these fallacies of ours.

All I’m saying is we need to cut this holier-than-thou attitude where we’re looking down on and detesting people for expecting a porn game on a site populated mostly by porn games and using terms that if you do a search in just about any search engine, will come back primarily (overwhelmingly so) with results related to pornography.

HOPES isn’t wrong…
But neither are THEY.

 

[Mr. Darke]

A final, general word on this matter for me. I appreciate the civil discussion. I think it is relevant to this game and given the number of times this discussion has broken out...

I mean, there's a saying... if you run into a jerk once, you ran into a jerk. You run into a jerk all the time, you're the jerk. What I'm saying here is, if this discussion keeps coming back, over and over again... maybe they aren't the problem. If my people keep not doing what I'm telling them, at some point I have to wonder if there's something I'm doing and or not doing to make it easier for them to understand what I want them to understand. In fact, even if it has been only one of them, the first thing I do is think if I could have been any clearer in any way. In this case, easily, with no effort at all Hopes COULD be clearer.

Bringing up anything else is literally irrelevant to the fact that things COULD be made clearer. Now, if Hopes doesn't want to do that, Hopes isn't wrong for that... but it is absolutely 100% wrong to keep getting mad whenever someone comments in a way that indicates that they expected this to be a porn game. Even people that gave this 5 stars, some of them clearly expected a porn game... some kind of seem to still expect as much.

I'm not calling anyone correct. I'm not attacking Hopes for making the game the way they want as they 100% should do that, but while we should do things like read everything and do research every single time... we don't. Humans don't generally do this until something makes them do it. You know how many times people have put stuff together not looking at the manual?

I'm not saying that makes us right... but we aren't wrong for being human and I promise, promise we've all functioned that way and will in the future even if we didn't do that here.

All I wanted to say was that it was wrong to look down on anyone here, attack anyone here, detest anyone here. We're human, we have different perspective, and we,more often than not don't mean any harm to anyone. but when we're passionate about something, when we expect one thing and get another (whether it was our fault or not) we get upset. We all know these things. We've all been in these situations. We just need to stop looking at each other like adversaries or... I don't even know but there's not always a right side and a wrong side in a disagreement. Sometimes you just have two opposing views and neither of you are wrong.

If two teams are playing, San Antonio Monkey Lords and the Paris Hopes are playing against each other, neither of us is wrong regardless of whom we're routing for to win... but even in that situation we often treat it like someone is wrong if they don't support the same team.

I think its wonderful what Hopes is doing. It may not be for me, but I think there's a lack of games like theirs and this community could surely use more games like theirs. There's a lot of care and creativity you just don't commonly see with many of the other creations. I think it is wonderful that they found so much support here. I hope it makes them feel good to see you truly in love with what they've made. It must be an amazing feeling, but I'm not surprised. There is something special here... but I worry that some of our reactions to those who don't feel the same way, especially if their criticism is outside what we find acceptable may sometimes tarnish things a bit. That's just my opinion.

I hope I didn't offend anyone, but if I did, well, what can you do? I appreciated our discussion on this. HopesGaming I cannot thank you enough for the time you took to reply to me. You're one of the most responsive devs on here and I hope that even those that aren't in love with your art can appreciate this fact.

Thank you again everyone for your time and I'm done speaking on this for now so no more long posts from me here on this, lol.

 

[JJJ84]

Mine too, because I’m not sure why this would prevent making things even clearer. Unless one’s argument (and this would be wrong) that there’s nothing else reasonable that could be done to make it clearer that this isn’t a porn game, not sure why you all keep bringing up tags. It isn’t just you, but it obviously isn’t just one person that was still confused even with the tags. It’s head scratching that on one side people are arguing “Is it just me or can’t you do this and that or that and this?” thus feeling like it is enough that they were catered too… while arguing against the idea of simply making things even clearer with one or two more sentences or even just two added words in the title.

It’s like, is it just me, or wouldn’t it be easy to do this and it wouldn’t harm the people that already like this game and or would still give it a try… but also make it easier for people to recognize this isn’t what they’re looking for?

Why would it even need to be clearer though? The tags themselves as I've said before, are pretty self explanatory. And there's also reviews that people put up as well. Anything else (on top of this system at f95zone) would basically be Hopes pandering and spoon-feeding this very small minority (who clearly don't look at the tags, or bother reading the reviews for that matter).

To add, before you go on saying "People shouldn't have to go to reviews/tags in order to find out what the game is like." well, let's take reviews for example. People refer to reviews to find out whether something may be to their liking or not. It can apply to basically any form of media - whether it's a movie or game (whether it's a written review or video review from youtube).

For example, if a moviegoer goes to see a film, but didn't watch/read any reviews, and finds out there's a scene that he/she finds offensive (whereas everyone else may just laugh it off as a joke/satire) that they would have known in advance if they've seen the review, is it the fault of the director (For his creative decisions)? And should the director go over and above saying there may or may not be a scene that could offend this minority?
No. The onus here is completely on the audience, whether they decide to see any reviews to gauge whether the film may be to their liking after the review. If he or she watched the movie without looking at these reviews (and is angered, etc), they only have themselves to blame since they went in without knowing anything about it.

This applies not just to movies, but tv series, games, basically all forms of entertainment.

If people went into The DeLuca Family without looking at the tags and the reviews (and are unhappy with what they got), well they only have themselves to blame for being lazy & not finding out more about it beforehand.
And like the director in the above example, Hopes really shouldn't need to go above and beyond what is generally required - which in f95zone is basically making sure the game tagged accurately, and people (who are new to the game) have access to the reviews (he's doing that. And no, this is not to get a pat on the head from him, if you're looking to say that lol. I would feel exactly the same way, say hypothetically if I was a Dev)

 

[Smarmint]

Geez. This guy. Coming into a forum about a game that is about one thing and trying to convince us all and the dev that is should be about something else. So a dev is not allowed to make the game they want, one that is very highly rated by many fans here by the way, a game that clearly indicates that its focus is going to be on building up the story with sex scenes eventually (you know, actually realistic), without getting complaints that it isn't about something else. What is wrong with these people?

It would be like me going into the Summertime Saga thread and complaining that the dev should switch the game to a straight VN because I don't like sandbox games. Or me complaining that the dev should redraw everything using 3D assets because I don't like 2D art. Don't these people have anything better to do?

I tell you HopesGaming, you have an unbelievable patience with these folks. It seems like at least once a month someone comes here and goes on a tirade about how there isn't enough sexual content by the current update to be posted on this site (ignoring the 181 games posted here that actually have the no sexual content tag with no plans of sexual content ever), or that they feel somehow cheated for being forced to play it for free without looking at the first page or many reviews mentioning the basic premise of your game.

If were me, I think I'd get tired of patiently explaining everything by the 10 time and just say "Thank you for the insightful comment. See page 1, FAQ, Question 4".

 

[MonkeyLord]

A final, general word on this matter for me. I appreciate the civil discussion. I think it is relevant to this game and given the number of times this discussion has broken out...

I mean, there's a saying... if you run into a jerk once, you ran into a jerk. You run into a jerk all the time, you're the jerk. What I'm saying here is, if this discussion keeps coming back, over and over again... maybe they aren't the problem. If my people keep not doing what I'm telling them, at some point I have to wonder if there's something I'm doing and or not doing to make it easier for them to understand what I want them to understand. In fact, even if it has been only one of them, the first thing I do is think if I could have been any clearer in any way. In this case, easily, with no effort at all Hopes COULD be clearer.

Bringing up anything else is literally irrelevant to the fact that things COULD be made clearer. Now, if Hopes doesn't want to do that, Hopes isn't wrong for that... but it is absolutely 100% wrong to keep getting mad whenever someone comments in a way that indicates that they expected this to be a porn game. Even people that gave this 5 stars, some of them clearly expected a porn game... some kind of seem to still expect as much.

I'm not calling anyone correct. I'm not attacking Hopes for making the game the way they want as they 100% should do that, but while we should do things like read everything and do research every single time... we don't. Humans don't generally do this until something makes them do it. You know how many times people have put stuff together not looking at the manual?

I'm not saying that makes us right... but we aren't wrong for being human and I promise, promise we've all functioned that way and will in the future even if we didn't do that here.

All I wanted to say was that it was wrong to look down on anyone here, attack anyone here, detest anyone here. We're human, we have different perspective, and we,more often than not don't mean any harm to anyone. but when we're passionate about something, when we expect one thing and get another (whether it was our fault or not) we get upset. We all know these things. We've all been in these situations. We just need to stop looking at each other like adversaries or... I don't even know but there's not always a right side and a wrong side in a disagreement. Sometimes you just have two opposing views and neither of you are wrong.

If two teams are playing, San Antonio Monkey Lords and the Paris Hopes are playing against each other, neither of us is wrong regardless of whom we're routing for to win... but even in that situation we often treat it like someone is wrong if they don't support the same team.

I think its wonderful what Hopes is doing. It may not be for me, but I think there's a lack of games like theirs and this community could surely use more games like theirs. There's a lot of care and creativity you just don't commonly see with many of the other creations. I think it is wonderful that they found so much support here. I hope it makes them feel good to see you truly in love with what they've made. It must be an amazing feeling, but I'm not surprised. There is something special here... but I worry that some of our reactions to those who don't feel the same way, especially if their criticism is outside what we find acceptable may sometimes tarnish things a bit. That's just my opinion.

I hope I didn't offend anyone, but if I did, well, what can you do? I appreciated our discussion on this. HopesGaming I cannot thank you enough for the time you took to reply to me. You're one of the most responsive devs on here and I hope that even those that aren't in love with your art can appreciate this fact.

Thank you again everyone for your time and I'm done speaking on this for now so no more long posts from me here on this, lol.

So basically, "TL, DR" version: HopesGaming shouldn't make a game expecting the average player to be able to read the OP, tags, or review, nor heeding the repeated warning every few pages in the thread. He should make it clear in block letters and pictures, as if the average player just have the basic function of an illiterate caveman in mating season?

And don't say you didn't imply just that. You basically just said we shouldn't expect people to understand anything more or read all of the above before downloading because that's how humans function. I've been facepalming the last 20 minutes feeling my IQ dropping down before rebooting myself to type this comment.

At its current state, there's already an abundant amount of warnings about what type of game this is. For ANY HUMAN WITH BASIC FUNCTION and THE ABILITY TO READ, it shouldn't be hard to spend 1-5 minutes skimming through reviews and tags, and/or use the search function to determine whether or not they should download a game. And if they can't even bother to do that, they have only themselves to blame, not human nature.