VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.4.0] [Ceolag]

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Wow lots of chatter and not about Kaija, I'm impressed guys.

Probably for the same reason vampires are mostly depicted as staying in the shadows.
The Templars are actively working to keep them a secret, and dealing with a couple of humans is easy.
Dealing with 8+ billion who consider you an existential threat and have enough ICBMs to glass an entire planet is a whole other story.

That may explain the last hundred years but before that ... not so much. Although I don't know how they would get ICBMs in to Neverwhere but it is certainly a deterrent to invasion assuming the elves have the numbers and maybe that is it, the Elves having a low birth rate perhaps so have never had the numbers?

 

[Dessolos]

Wow lots of chatter and not about Kaija, I'm impressed guys.

Defenestrator.for.traitor it has come to my attention thanks to Grumpy there is a lack of down with Kaija today

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Wow lots of chatter and not about Kaija, I'm impressed guys.

Please don't, I am lurking and reading all.

Defenestrator.for.traitor it has come to my attention thanks to Grumpy there is a lack of down with Kaija today

There is a good conversation so I am holding myself.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

My two cents, the Grand Master has realized that the Templars have become too cynical in pursuing their mission and hopes that his offspring will bring a more positive and fresh outlook.

That does not explain Jessica though. So I think, even if it's stupid, their explanation was genuine. They wanted their children a normal life and wanted to protect them from the harms that can come through Neverwhere. It's stupid but understandable.

My problem with it, I can't fit Kaija in this explanation. If you want someone to avoid something you won't put them on direct path. As far as we know, Kaija is go-to member of Templars that means, appointing her as a protective detail to MC makes no sense at all. She is often away from MC, if there is an attack on Templars she will be one of the important target which puts MC in danger too, forcing her to live double life would increase her stress which is dangerous for their operations etc. etc. There is not a single thing I can think of that make sense to put Kaija in MC's life.

Also, why does not Jessica have someone like Kaija then? Is MC worth more than Jessica?

 

[nitkonikic]

Also, why does not Jessica have someone like Kaija then? Is MC worth more than Jessica?

Perhaps they wanted it, but mom absolutely shut down the idea of her daughter having relationship with prostitute-on-payroll?
She might have been more protective than dad, who was against forcing it on his agent, but A-OK if agent wants it?

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Wow lots of chatter and not about Kaija, I'm impressed guys.

That may explain the last hundred years but before that ... not so much. Although I don't know how they would get ICBMs in to Neverwhere but it is certainly a deterrent to invasion assuming the elves have the numbers and maybe that is it, the Elves having a low birth rate perhaps so have never had the numbers?

Maybe Templars were not the one keeping status quo. Elves may not have any interest towards human territories so they maybe tolerant to humans as long as they kept it to themselves. Being on bad terms does not necessarily means you'd be on the offensive too.

Also if we think ambush on Medb. Higher ups of Templars were all surprised Elves were in human city but a whole platoon of Elves were able to come into human city unchallenged. So I think, it means it's not because they were not capable of it but more likely they have lack of interest.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Also, why does not Jessica have someone like Kaija then? Is MC worth more than Jessica?

Maybe we don't know him/her yet.
Alternatively the MC seems surrounded by several "lisan al gaib" bullshit.

 

[nitkonikic]

Here's a question: Why would elves kidnap grandmaster just to let him go so easily?
Sure, granted, MC saved Medb's life, so it's fair trade for them, but what was end goal in the first place?

We know what their demands were, but it was said from the start they were unrealistic and insane, never going to happen.
So what was initial plan? Why kidnap him and risk the war?

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

That does not explain Jessica though. So I think, even if it's stupid, their explanation was genuine. They wanted their children a normal life and wanted to protect them from the harms that can come through Neverwhere. It's stupid but understandable.

My problem with it, I can't fit Kaija in this explanation. If you want someone to avoid something you won't put them on direct path. As far as we know, Kaija is go-to member of Templars that means, appointing her as a protective detail to MC makes no sense at all. She is often away from MC, if there is an attack on Templars she will be one of the important target which puts MC in danger too, forcing her to live double life would increase her stress which is dangerous for their operations etc. etc. There is not a single thing I can think of that make sense to put Kaija in MC's life.

Also, why does not Jessica have someone like Kaija then? Is MC worth more than Jessica?

Since MC is the MC, he is more important than Jess, why we haven't been told yet. You ask good questions I want to know the answers to as well:

Why would the council assign one of their elite agents to be his bodyguard?
Why give her so many assignments she is never there to guard him?
Kaija would be a target so why is she his bodyguard?
MC and Kaija have a childhood connection, but that doesn't mean she had to be his bodyguard. Why not someone else?
With the father kidnapped by the elves why would the third party go after the son?

And so on. So many questions and not very many answers yet. We are just going to have to kidnap Ceolag and torture him for answers

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Why kidnap him and risk the war?

They are convinced that they are in a win-win situation:
They accept, no more Templar victory.
Let's go to war and annihilate them, no more Templar victory.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Perhaps they wanted it, but mom absolutely shut down the idea of her daughter having relationship with prostitute-on-payroll?
She might have been more protective than dad, who was against forcing it on his agent, but A-OK if agent wants it?

As you said they did not force that on Kaija it was her doing also this does not mean they can't hire not-so-close guardian to Jessica.

Anyway, it was not what I am trying to say. I think we are looking at Kaija&MC relation at a wrong perception. I think MC's parents are seeing Kaija as their daughter(not exactly but so close) as we know Kaija basically grew up in their house. She did not have good relations with her parents and only close relative of her, grandfather, died pretty early. If my assumption is correct then they probably did not want Kaija be part of Templars either but probably could not stop it, I assume it's related to Kaija's secret. So Grandmaster appointed Kaija as a guardian to MC not for MC's protection but Kaija's sake. He probably wanted to Kaija have a semblance of a normal life.

If so, there was no need to protect MC and Jessica therefore no protection for Jessica. Kaija was often lacking to protect MC, she was not around much to protect him either and these should be a problem for Templars because that put asset in danger but if there is no real danger then they easily overlook this. Also getting into relationship without authorisation would compromise the order but Templars did not say anything, which makes sense according to my theory because they see that, probably only Grand Master maybe Linnae too, as her own life rather than a duty.

Edit: I usually don't tag devs but Ceolag , if it's not spoil any further plot point can you tell me, am I any close?

 

[nitkonikic]

With the father kidnapped by the elves why would the third party go after the son?

Incoming conflict between elves and that 3rd party?
Templars in middle, "blackmail" them into co-operation?

That's stretching it veeeeeeeeery thin, but can't see proper reason why 3rd party (I still think it's Fiona's family) would go after MC. It makes literally no sense unless they know something Templars and Elves don't.

And again, daughter is easier target, no protectors there.
We'll just have to wait and see, eh?

Chapter 5 should give us some answers hopefully.

As you said they did not force that on Kaija it was her doing also this does not mean they can't hire not-so-close guardian to Jessica.

Anyway, it was not what I am trying to say.

I know, just wanted to call Kaija a prostitute. Been a while since I've insulted her and had to find some, any excuse to do it.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Grand Master maybe Linnae too

Linnae chose duty above family

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

I know, just wanted to call Kaija a prostitute. Been a while since I've insulted her and had to find some, any excuse to do it.

I know the urge.

Linnae chose duty above family

Yeah she did but she was not sure of it, at least to a degree that force it on others. Still, it's a maybe on her part.

 

[nitkonikic]

Yeah she did but she was not sure of it, at least to a degree that force it on others. Still, it's a maybe on her part.

Hate to be that guy, but let's not forget Linnae is part of leadership of organization that's ok with letting civilians get killed if they find out about existence of Neverwhere.

She may act friendly towards MC, but I attribute that more to her considering him (now that he's involved with them) to already be part of organization.
He's a colleague now, son of grandmaster.

She is not a good person, none of them are.
They are a brainwashed cult acting like patron-saints of humanity.
Most, if not all of them, would choose duty over family.

That doesn't mean they don't love their families. Just that they will always be #2.
Only 2 scenarios for MC to end up happy in this VN:
- Full rebuild of organization (don't like it, but there might not be other choice)
- Walking away after spitting in dad's face once everything is done

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Hate to be that guy, but let's not forget Linnae is part of leadership of organization that's ok with letting civilians get killed if they find out about existence of Neverwhere.

She may act friendly towards MC, but I attribute that more to her considering him (now that he's involved with them) to already be part of organization.
He's a colleague now, son of grandmaster.

She is not a good person, none of them are.
They are a brainwashed cult acting like patron-saints of humanity.
Most, if not all of them, would choose duty over family.

That doesn't mean they don't love their families. Just that they will always be #2.
Only 2 scenarios for MC to end up happy in this VN:
- Full rebuild of organization (don't like it, but there might not be other choice)
- Walking away after spitting in dad's face once everything is done

Yeah, I do agree with all of this. Maybe less enthusiastically with rebuild part but still agree on it.

Though, it was not about MC at this point. It was about Kaija. So there is no reason for Linnae not be sympathetic towards her. Kaija was terrible at protecting MC, he needed her protection twice and she was not there either of the case. Also she was not around much to protect him either, that means a bad job for her. If what I am thinking was correct, then she is ordered to have a normal life. I think Linnae can be sympathetic to that idea.

 

[Ceolag]

As you said they did not force that on Kaija it was her doing also this does not mean they can't hire not-so-close guardian to Jessica.

Anyway, it was not what I am trying to say. I think we are looking at Kaija&MC relation at a wrong perception. I think MC's parents are seeing Kaija as their daughter(not exactly but so close) as we know Kaija basically grew up in their house. She did not have good relations with her parents and only close relative of her, grandfather, died pretty early. If my assumption is correct then they probably did not want Kaija be part of Templars either but probably could not stop it, I assume it's related to Kaija's secret. So Grandmaster appointed Kaija as a guardian to MC not for MC's protection but Kaija's sake. He probably wanted to Kaija have a semblance of a normal life.

If so, there was no need to protect MC and Jessica therefore no protection for Jessica. Kaija was often lacking to protect MC, she was not around much to protect him either and these should be a problem for Templars because that put asset in danger but if there is no real danger then they easily overlook this. Also getting into relationship without authorisation would compromise the order but Templars did not say anything, which makes sense according to my theory because they see that, probably only Grand Master maybe Linnae too, as her own life rather than a duty.

Edit: I usually don't tag devs but Ceolag , if it's not spoil any further plot point can you tell me, am I any close?

Partially for Kaija, yes.

For Jessica: Just because there's no obvious "Kaija" for her, doesn't mean she's unprotected or less "valuable" than MC. She lives at home (thus is protected through that) or at college, where it's easy to place "undercover bodyguards" around her.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Partially for Kaija, yes.

For Jessica: Just because there's no obvious "Kaija" for her, doesn't mean she's unprotected or less "valuable" than MC. She lives at home (thus is protected through that) or at college, where it's easy to place "undercover bodyguards" around her.

 

[nitkonikic]

Partially for Kaija, yes.

For Jessica: Just because there's no obvious "Kaija" for her, doesn't mean she's unprotected or less "valuable" than MC. She lives at home (thus is protected through that) or at college, where it's easy to place "undercover bodyguards" around her.

So we'll have male/female version of Kaija if/once you get to book with sister as MC?
Spicy...

PITCHFORKS OUT GUYS, WE HAVE ANOTHER ONE!

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Why all this hate for a bodyguard with benefits?