VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.4.0] [Ceolag]

[vogelbeest]

In fact, I'm a bit suspicious about if the Templars leadership actually want to protect MC.

No idea about the current guys, (the council?) but MC's father IS the leader... There's no reason Kaija should even be there 24/7, the family could have had protection from templars without their knowledge. Kaija just had a valid reason to be close to MC in school or other places and could be very close without raising questions, something not always possible for the more discrete templar protection. The father being the leader of the templars is reason enough to have his family under permanent protection 24/7.... There's a question that still need to be answered, if "leadership" wanted Kaija close to MC, how much of that is actually by direct order of MC's father? The father and the mother must have known, maybe even suggested or ordered it...

 

[Illuminati00]

After a short break because this is a lot and I'm supposed to be working...​

I still stand by my previous point but this made me chuckle.

 

[ryansFLYIN]

Reading through all of this as well as part one I get the feeling that the main argument is that she loves the MC and regret what she did to him. I truly doubt that anyone is denying that she actually began loving him on the love route, she proves it to us a few times. What I wish to bring notice to however is that love and "friend" route Kaija are not different people. The way you make her love you is choosing the right actions whilst you are in a relationship. I think this is undeniably proof that you were in a relationship first only for her to fall in love with you later.

For the Neverwhere comment, as has already been pointed out, the name means nothing to the MC, and Kaija knows this. She already felt bad and it is most likely if not most definitely a way for her to technically not lie for once. A selfish action meant to help herself, not the MC.

As to her comment about how much has been a lie, her answer is "In the beginning? Pretty much everything except the original friendship. In the end? Nothing!". You ask what she means with "everything". For her to say everything means that they were something else other than friends "in the begining". So they were in a relationship and she said that everything about it apart from the friendship was a lie. I see no other possible answer than her lying about her feelings. They would not have become a couple unless both said they had feelings for the other. While certain people started loving each other after starting the relationship, those types of people are usually in arranged relationships. It is highly rare for two people to start dating without having any romantic feelings for each other, especially two good friends. Considering her order was to be close to him, what was the chance that she initiated the relationship, adding another layer to her lies and manipulations.

To me, saying that she did begin loving him and started to regret it really does not absolve her of anything. I've said it before here, if you murder someone and then start regretting murdering that person, should you be forgiven? Notice that I said started regretting murdering THAT person. Kaija felt bad for it, but she never once showed any remorse for her tactics, her remorse came from her deceiving someone she loved, not for emotionally manipulating him so she could follow the assignment given to her by her cult. This is shown on the "friend" route, where she is completely emotionless about it, not seeing anything wrong in it. Yes, they are different routes, but she is still the same person. The only difference between them is that she started loving the MC.

I'm only looking at the love route because you get what you give. If you take the friend route and act cold to her, is she supposed to grovel? You're expressing that you don't love or trust her. To expect her to have undying feelings while you express hatred is not fair.

The Neverwhere comment. Yes, it meant nothing to the MC. She still said the name on an open channel. He might not know what it means, but it's still classified information. She can still 100% get in trouble for even saying the name. She took a risk - that's the point.

They were friends in the beginning. Maybe wanting to hang out all the time was the lie. But the relationship didn't start until years later. Her feelings developed over time. Maybe she forced herself to hang out with him more than she would have normally, but she didn't force her feelings. Those were natural.

I'm not saying you should forgive her. I'm saying that she loves MC. I'm also not argueing the friend route, for reasons I've mentioned above. You can't choose to not love her and then get mad that she accepts that, or at least starts to process it and greive. We've only seen her a couple times without the MC, so we don't know what's happening when shes at home or alone. We got that shower scene, how many more do we need?

At the end of the day, this is still a choose your own adventure. You chose to not love her. Dev said "okay, the player doesn't like this character, let's give him other options." So saying she is the same person... she's not. YOU'RE deciding how the relationships play out. If I don't like a character, I usually don't want to see them on screen. Dev probably understands that's how people are and is accommodating that. Arguing mechanics doesn't solve anything.

Okay. I'm going back to work before anyone realizes I took a 2 hour lunch...

 

[Illuminati00]

I'm only looking at the love route because you get what you give. If you take the friend route and act cold to her, is she supposed to grovel? You're expressing that you don't love or trust her. To expect her to have undying feelings while you express hatred is not fair.

The Neverwhere comment. Yes, it meant nothing to the MC. She still said the name on an open channel. He might not know what it means, but it's still classified information. She can still 100% get in trouble for even saying the name. She took a risk - that's the point.

They were friends in the beginning. Maybe wanting to hang out all the time was the lie. But the relationship didn't start until years later. Her feelings developed over time. Maybe she forced herself to hang out with him more than she would have normally, but she didn't force her feelings. Those were natural.

I'm not saying you should forgive her. I'm saying that she loves MC. I'm also not argueing the friend route, for reasons I've mentioned above. You can't choose to not love her and then get mad that she accepts that, or at least starts to process it and greive. We've only seen her a couple times without the MC, so we don't know what's happening when shes at home or alone. We got that shower scene, how many more do we need?

At the end of the day, this is still a choose your own adventure. You chose to not love her. Dev said "okay, the player doesn't like this character, let's give him other options." So saying she is the same person... she's not. YOU'RE deciding how the relationships play out. If I don't like a character, I usually don't want to see them on screen. Dev probably understands that's how people are and is accommodating that. Arguing mechanics doesn't solve anything.

Okay. I'm going back to work before anyone realizes I took a 2 hour lunch...

I feel like that is the issue with the different routes, you get barely any chances to show if you are interested or not. "Not loving her" is showing that you are interested in her body and forgetting to text her once. That part really is barebones, I don't think it's fair to say that the MC doesn't love her there, I think he made it clear that he did.

It does not matter if she took a risk or not, I really don't see how that proves or change anything. It was a pointless risk she made without really telling him anything. I don't see how it's a point.

Her feeling were natural, but that does not change the fact that she entered a relationship with the MC without loving him just because her job said so.

Just to comment on " Love is strange... You think you'll do everything for someone... And you try to do so, you really do... You try to shield them from pain... And danger... You lie to them... Because sometimes you have no other choice... Right? They might be mad at you... But they will understand... with enough time... They need to... Because that hope is the only thing that keeps you going... But no matter what... In the end everything falls apart... Love is strange... Love hurts, love scars... ", I never saw this one, it's quite interesting, though I do find it bullshit. She did not do "everything" for someone, she did "everything" because she was ordered to. She wallows in self pity after her love found out that she lied about both their relationship and the state of the entire world, and then she hopes he understands even though there is nothing more to understand.

I know you're saying that she loves him, but you made the title "In defense of Kaija" in all caps. If it was called "Kaija still loves you" in all caps, then sure, but you advertise it as a defense of her. You never really choose not to love her, you choose what she thinks of you. Your character does love her, he would not be in a relationship if he didn't, he would not be that hurt if he didn't. But yeah, way to little information about their home life is available.

Yes, you decide if her character would start to love you or not, but it is still the same character, just without the late blooming love. If one wants to truly understand a character, he must look at how the character replies to several situations. The only thing that changes is whether or not she begins to love you during the relationship. In both routes she shows no remorse for emotionally manipulating you, she is only sad in the love route because she began to have romantic feelings, showing that she was fine lying to her friend about her feeling towards him. Her personality does not change, it's still the same character in the same situation, just without love added. She never once showed any remorse about her manipulation, it rather seems like she regretted him finding out.

 

[bacienvu88]

No idea about the current guys, (the council?) but MC's father IS the leader...
There's no reason Kaija should even be there 24/7, the family could have had protection from templars without their knowledge. Kaija just had a valid reason to be close to MC in school or other places and could be very close without raising questions, something not always possible for the more discrete templar protection. The father being the leader of the templars is reason enough to have his family under permanent protection 24/7.... There's a question that still need to be answered, if "leadership" wanted Kaija close to MC, how much of that is actually by direct order of MC's father? The father and the mother must have known, maybe even suggested or ordered it...

We don't know how much power the position of Grandmaster actually gives him. Does he have the last say in everything or is he just a figurehead? My scenario is that Mom and Dad requested protection for MC (why not for Jessica?) and the council responded with doing the minimum for the request.

You also didn't say anything about the other point: That MC only got a chauffeur when his life was threatened.

I'm only looking at the love route because you get what you give. If you take the friend route and act cold to her, is she supposed to grovel? You're expressing that you don't love or trust her. To expect her to have undying feelings while you express hatred is not fair.

The Neverwhere comment. Yes, it meant nothing to the MC. She still said the name on an open channel. He might not know what it means, but it's still classified information. She can still 100% get in trouble for even saying the name. She took a risk - that's the point.

They were friends in the beginning. Maybe wanting to hang out all the time was the lie. But the relationship didn't start until years later. Her feelings developed over time. Maybe she forced herself to hang out with him more than she would have normally, but she didn't force her feelings. Those were natural.

I'm not saying you should forgive her. I'm saying that she loves MC. I'm also not argueing the friend route, for reasons I've mentioned above. You can't choose to not love her and then get mad that she accepts that, or at least starts to process it and greive. We've only seen her a couple times without the MC, so we don't know what's happening when shes at home or alone. We got that shower scene, how many more do we need?

At the end of the day, this is still a choose your own adventure. You chose to not love her. Dev said "okay, the player doesn't like this character, let's give him other options." So saying she is the same person... she's not. YOU'RE deciding how the relationships play out. If I don't like a character, I usually don't want to see them on screen. Dev probably understands that's how people are and is accommodating that. Arguing mechanics doesn't solve anything.

Okay. I'm going back to work before anyone realizes I took a 2 hour lunch...

Yes, they love each other. Yes, she is remorseful. Yes, MC can forgive her. But none of that matters unless they can't get over the fissure that is the lies and deceit from Kaija. In the future, how will MC be able to trust that what Kaija says is actually the truth? Each time she refuses to say what she is doing ("it's classified") more trust will be lost. Each time she says a white lie to not divulge Templar stuff more trust will be lost. Each time she prioritizes some Templar job/mission more trust will be lost. Can they overcome it? Maybe, but it is a very narrow path. Especially Kaija needs to consistently show MC that he is more important than the Templars for Kaija. I really hope the dev doesn't trivializes this problem in their relationship.

 

[vogelbeest]

We don't know how much power the position of Grandmaster actually gives him. Does he have the last say in everything or is he just a figurehead? My scenario is that Mom and Dad requested protection for MC (why not for Jessica?) and the council responded with doing the minimum for the request.

You also didn't say anything about the other point: That MC only got a chauffeur when his life was threatened.

Well, we know with the father being captured there's a crisis, so it's acceptable if the majority of the agents are busy trying to find the grandmaster... So the fact MC only gets a chauffeur is not that strange, the family already is protected, he just needs to be brought there, the chauffeur may simply have been the only agent available at that moment.

We don't know if there's protection for Jessica or not, we only know Kaija was ordered to protect MC, and the only reason this fact has been revealed, is because she saved him when he got intercepted, this effectively blown her cover....

As for the grandmaster's power, there's no reason to assume he's just a figure head, he must have had the authority to make day-to-day decisions to run the organisation. Perhaps he's a member of the council, perhaps he was appointed by and has to answer to the council, but there's really no significance to the elves' threat killing him if he's just a puppet....

Much of the council's energy right now is spent on crisis management... So how much can they be blamed? They're taking a leading role while they're probably used to a more supervising role... It's not "just another days work".... All hands on deck!

 

[nitkonikic]

No idea about the current guys, (the council?) but MC's father IS the leader... There's no reason Kaija should even be there 24/7, the family could have had protection from templars without their knowledge. Kaija just had a valid reason to be close to MC in school or other places and could be very close without raising questions, something not always possible for the more discrete templar protection. The father being the leader of the templars is reason enough to have his family under permanent protection 24/7.... There's a question that still need to be answered, if "leadership" wanted Kaija close to MC, how much of that is actually by direct order of MC's father? The father and the mother must have known, maybe even suggested or ordered it...

During first discussion with Kaija (the reveal one) she says she was ordered to be with MC by the order. It was stopped by MCs father (she still decided to do it of her own volition, easier job).

As for mother, well mother openly says she knew about it and agreed with that.
That's why I can't (for now) support Templars, Kaija or MCs family in any regard. Sister excluded, she's fucking awesome, isn't afraid to tell her mom they all fucked up and support her brother in time of need.

They all lied big fucking time to him, they betrayed him and basically FORCED him into loving a girl that wasn't really interested in him. And his parents supported that!!!
"Ye, your whole life might be a lie, but you'll be safe". Mother deserves no love from MC either. So showing that templar no respect is proper way to treat them.

 

[Illuminati00]

During first discussion with Kaija (the reveal one) she says she was ordered to be with MC by the order. It was stopped by MCs father (she still decided to do it of her own volition, easier job).

As for mother, well mother openly says she knew about it and agreed with that.
That's why I can't (for now) support Templars, Kaija or MCs family in any regard. Sister excluded, she's fucking awesome, isn't afraid to tell her mom they all fucked up and support her brother in time of need.

They all lied big fucking time to him, they betrayed him and basically FORCED him into loving a girl that wasn't really interested in him. And his parents supported that!!!
"Ye, your whole life might be a lie, but you'll be safe". Mother deserves no love from MC either. So showing that templar no respect is proper way to treat them.

Agree 100%. I never was very interested in incest, and so I see incest LI's as any other love interest, though I got really disappointed when I saw that the sister was not a LI. She's hands down the best character in the entire game.

 

[vogelbeest]

They all lied big fucking time to him, they betrayed him and basically FORCED him into loving a girl that wasn't really interested in him. And his parents supported that!!!

They did not tell their kids about the Templars. Not very strange, after all everybody knows the CIA exists, but the Templars is on a whole different level of secrecy... The world of elves, demons and all that, is the world of fantasy novels for everybody not part of that world.... Once that veil is lifted there is no way back.... I'd say it's a catch 22 situation, tell the kids or don't tell them, you're fucked eitherway.... They now know but the situation did not allow any choice anymore, it's that easy.

As for Kaija, much of that is left to the judgment of the player, we don't really have that much information. Perhaps she never loved MC, perhaps she fell in love on the job, perhaps she never had feelings for him... It's different depending on your choices too, but personally i can't imagine Kaija chosing to protect you, just because she was ordered to. She did not have to be romantically involved with MC to be close to him... And yet she was....

So how much of the different things she says to you depending on your choices are dictated by her job? MC can be angry, can feel he's betrayed... And that's on top of the fact his live has been turned upside down... Her job is protecting MC, getting the grandmaster back, strictly spoken she does not have the luxury to solve the problems of her love live now... She has been a templar for years and she has to keep doing her job, even for the safety of the MC... But we can all decide for ourselves what we think Kaija's role is, the game offers that choice...

 

[Illuminati00]

They did not tell their kids about the Templars. Not very strange, after all everybody knows the CIA exists, but the Templars is on a whole different level of secrecy... The world of elves, demons and all that, is the world of fantasy novels for everybody not part of that world.... Once that veil is lifted there is no way back.... I'd say it's a catch 22 situation, tell the kids or don't tell them, you're fucked eitherway.... They now know but the situation did not allow any choice anymore, it's that easy.

As for Kaija, much of that is left to the judgment of the player, we don't really have that much information. Perhaps she never loved MC, perhaps she fell in love on the job, perhaps she never had feelings for him... It's different depending on your choices too, but personally i can't imagine Kaija chosing to protect you, just because she was ordered to. She did not have to be romantically involved with MC to be close to him... And yet she was....

So how much of the different things she says to you depending on your choices are dictated by her job? MC can be angry, can feel he's betrayed... And that's on top of the fact his live has been turned upside down... Her job is protecting MC, getting the grandmaster back, strictly spoken she does not have the luxury to solve the problems of her love live now... She has been a templar for years and she has to keep doing her job, even for the safety of the MC... But we can all decide for ourselves what we think Kaija's role is, the game offers that choice...

Yeah I really don't think that debate will ever be solved as everyone has filled in the blanks with their own ideas.

 

[bacienvu88]

Well, we know with the father being captured there's a crisis, so it's acceptable if the majority of the agents are busy trying to find the grandmaster... So the fact MC only gets a chauffeur is not that strange, the family already is protected, he just needs to be brought there, the chauffeur may simply have been the only agent available at that moment.

You mean the Templar HQ is left defenseless with just a handful of people or less defending it? Otherwise there definitely should be at least a couple of people more to spare. And "just needs to be brought there" is the most dangerous part of all. It may even have been safer to just stay in the office.

As for the grandmaster's power, there's no reason to assume he's just a figure head, he must have had the authority to make day-to-day decisions to run the organisation. Perhaps he's a member of the council, perhaps he was appointed by and has to answer to the council, but there's really no significance to the elves' threat killing him if he's just a puppet....

I just said that we don't know how much power a GM has. From the hints in the game my guess is that he is mostly like a chairman. Council runs the day-to-day business in their own areas of expertise. GM is chairman of the council, major decisions is done by the council with GM having the casting vote.

Agree 100%. I never was very interested in incest, and so I see incest LI's as any other love interest, though I got really disappointed when I saw that the sister was not a LI. She's hands down the best character in the entire game.

I don't want Jess to be an LI. But I do think that MC and Jess should have lots more talks. They seem to be pretty close, so I think it would make sense for him to talk often about his thoughts and worries with her.

Love is strange... You think you'll do everything for someone... And you try to do so, you really do... You try to shield them from pain... And danger... You lie to them... Because sometimes you have no other choice... Right? They might be mad at you... But they will understand... with enough time... They need to... Because that hope is the only thing that keeps you going... But no matter what... In the end everything falls apart... Love is strange... Love hurts, love scars...

About this poem(?). I think the problem the following is crucial; You try to shield them from pain... And danger... You lie to them. Sure, often it is good to shield someone from pain and danger. But sometimes that does more harm than good. And more often than not if you have to lie to that someone in order to protect them. Especially when the lie is so big as these ones. I would amend that poem to look like this in the end:

Love is strange when you lie to your love
Love hurts when you lie to your love
Love scars when you lie to your love

Playing through again I feel that there is something strange in the relationship between MC and Kaija from the start. For some reason Kaija is surprised that MC kiss her in the beginning of the game. Is it that rare of an event that they kiss and show affection for each other? Or in the shower sex route, Kaija says "Not bad for this early in the morning. I can get used to that." which sounds like it is the first time they have had morning sex.

MC doesn't seem to know about Kaija liking bikes. And even if he knew it somewhat Kaija has never offered him a ride before. This seems strange for people who are supposed to have been friends for years.

Sometimes it feels like they really don't know much about each other.

They did not tell their kids about the Templars. Not very strange, after all everybody knows the CIA exists, but the Templars is on a whole different level of secrecy... The world of elves, demons and all that, is the world of fantasy novels for everybody not part of that world.... Once that veil is lifted there is no way back.... I'd say it's a catch 22 situation, tell the kids or don't tell them, you're fucked eitherway.... They now know but the situation did not allow any choice anymore, it's that easy.

But it is almost guaranteed that they will have to tell the kids about the Templars and the magic world at some point. And they know that. Furthermore if they don't explain it when things are calm, they are going to have to do a rush-explanation when shit hits the fan. Which would you prefer? Not to mention that it is going to be much more difficult to justify lying the older they get.

So how much of the different things she says to you depending on your choices are dictated by her job? MC can be angry, can feel he's betrayed... And that's on top of the fact his live has been turned upside down... Her job is protecting MC, getting the grandmaster back, strictly spoken she does not have the luxury to solve the problems of her love live now... She has been a templar for years and she has to keep doing her job, even for the safety of the MC... But we can all decide for ourselves what we think Kaija's role is, the game offers that choice...

But she still have a choice. Does she prioritize MC? Or does she prioritize her job and the Templars. For example, if Kaija and MC has planned a date and she gets a mission suddenly. Does she tell them "Sorry, can't do, I have something else to do"? Or does she cancel the date? Up until now it seems she has always chosen the second option.

 

[vogelbeest]

Council runs the day-to-day business in their own areas of expertise.

A council running day to day business? Only if that council consists of the heads of the several departments. But i can agree the council will take the more important decisions if time allows it and even having the power to intervene... But there's always a guy taking the day to day decisions when needed, you can't have a council taking votes on every decision all the time, they appoint a leader that delegates to captains etc. That's just how organisations work.

You mean the Templar HQ is left defenseless with just a handful of people or less defending it? Otherwise there definitely should be at least a couple of people more to spare. And "just needs to be brought there" is the most dangerous part of all. It may even have been safer to just stay in the office.

What point is there to bring people from HQ if there is need to get MC fast as possible from the office to his house? There was a chauffeur ready and he was in a hurry. There's no point in asking if there was another option... The situation is clear, the MC was in danger and he would not have survived if Kaija didn't rescue him....

But the fact she made it there in time against her orders, in the worst case could mean there's foul play, or in the best case just bad coordination of the templar leaders... But unless we get information the chauffeur deliberately was sent alone and Kaija was ordered elsewhere for the same reason, we can only assume it's just coincidence...

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

ryansFLYIN holy fucking shit bruh, you actually did it. I have yet to read but Jesus Christ I already believe you after you wrote this much stuff.

 

[risky0]

I think Kaija's path of love and friendship is not well planned.
Before we realized what kind of relationship they had, the game forced us to make a choice.

Kajia may have fallen in love with mc later on, but the point is that everything was fake in the beginning.
Her priority was always "business", not mc.
Why doesn't Mc suspect something, what kind of job is it, sometimes it's not there for days.
Kaija never had a choice, they just made her think she had a choice, and they succeeded.
It is implied in the game that even friendships are pre-planned.

 

[nitkonikic]

But the fact she made it there in time against her orders, in the worst case could mean there's foul play, or in the best case just bad coordination of the templar leaders... But unless we get information the chauffeur deliberately was sent alone and Kaija was ordered elsewhere for the same reason, we can only assume it's just coincidence...

This one I think really is only coincidence, otherwise dev is planning for 2 insanely different routes.
On "friend" route Kaija comes to your rescue under orders from the order, which wouldn't happen if they planned for MCs demise.

Don't think there's big conspiracy within Templar order to get MC killed/abducted, they just don't care too much.

 

[bacienvu88]

A council running day to day business? Only if that council consists of the heads of the several departments. But i can agree the council will take the more important decisions if time allows it and even having the power to intervene... But there's always a guy taking the day to day decisions when needed, you can't have a council taking votes on every decision all the time, they appoint a leader that delegates to captains etc. That's just how organisations work.

I meant council consists of department heads. We already know Linnae is a councilor and a fight instructor, so not a stretch to assume she in charge of training.

But Templars seem pretty hierarchical so you may be right. But then having a council seem pretty pointless?

 

[UncleFredo]

Just stumbled on this lovely VN. Thank you so much for your work to produce it. It is technically excellent and quite captivating. I look forward to the next update.

I'd like to offer a couple observations, take them for what they cost you.

From reading the comments here I understand that the relationship and history between the MC and Kaija varies quite a bit depending on the player's choices. I've only played the "love" route and have little interest in playing others so please factor that into my comments.

Kaija has been admirably defended in earlier comments. I want to speak to the MC's reactions if the player is on the love route. A brief recap. His childhood friend who, as they got older, became close to him and then his lover and live in girl friend, at which point they end up as a couple. He's in love with her. His father gets kidnapped and as he's being transported to a safe location is intercepted by no fewer than 10 mercenaries who crash his car killing his driver. As he's about to be taken Kaija shows up on a motorcycle immediately kills 4 mercs then more and ultimately saves him as he does her at the end of the encounter. He discovers that she doesn't work for the government but a clandestine para-military organization that is hundreds of years old and that the INITIAL reason that she got close to him was to protect him. He also learns that in short order as they spent time around each other she fell in love with him and that the feelings she's expressed to him are as true as she is capable of feeling.

What is the MC's reaction? To doubt everything about this woman who risked her life and broke her command orders to come and ensure that he was safe. He has a right to be upset that some things were kept from him. But to doubt that he can trust her? Have to wonder what someone has to do to prove themselves to the MC. The adult reaction is "not happy about parts of this, but I've no doubt you love me and that I love you, so from this moment forward no secrets. If you can promise me that then we'll go forward and sort out the details." Any other reaction make the MC a whiny undeserving punk.

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The Elves:

Way too little foundation for the threat by the Elves. If they have the ability to enforce that they would have done it a very very long time ago. The Templars clearly have been able to protect their interests for hundreds of years. Implying that the consequences of the actions the Elves just indulged in would have been sufficient to prevent it until now. What's changed? Why rattle the status quo? Why let the ambassador leave? They are kidnappers. Snatch her up. counter leverage. Powerful water mage bla bla bla - elephant tranquilizers from the wings, knock them out and keep them drugged. Point is that the Templars have been dealing with the Elves for centuries. Either the Elves aren't that big a bunch of assholes or the templars have developed ways to counter them. --- SO WHAT'S CHANGED????

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In any event. I really enjoy your VN and hope you'll continue your excellent work.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

[By the way, is there a purpose to leaving the bathroom door open?]

If you slapped her ass she comes to take revenge and you do couples stuff.

If she didn't trust us, why would she reveal classified information?

This one is simple she knows that name would not mean anything to MC.

no "I love you."

Well.....

If he was nothing but an assignment, and we are getting picked up by an agent already, why bother showing up at all?

Well MC is still top priority for the organization and her life long duty. If anything happens to MC she would fail her main job.

This is an argument I read a lot here - that TKT was forcing her into this relationship. They didn't. In fact, they didn't force them to be friends.

We specifically mentioned that actually. We said they were friends before and no one forced her to be a lover to MC she chose to do that for her own convenience. It was one of our points, if she had chose to remain friends with MC and they fell in love within time it would be more understandable but after TKT tasked her she chose to be a lover to MC because otherwise she could not have valid reasons to be with MC 24/7. There was no love there, she chose the task over their friendship because she very well knew that would jeopardize their friendship. For me, that is the exact point what love route equally bad with babysitter route. She may really fell in love with MC after a while but it was all façade in the beginning whether for love route or babysitter route.

For overall,

I started to understand what you mean, if I am not mistaken you are saying she really fell in love with MC and she cared for him. That would/should redeem her bad deeds. Other points just try to prove her love to MC and how heartbroken she is.

Even though I understand you better now, I must stay at my ground. First of all, she started the relationship, I am reffering to love relationship, on the wrong foot. She was not in love with MC like you mentioned almost everything was a lie from the beginning. Regardless of her love afterwards, it is an irredeemable act for me. That was the reason I never liked Steph also. Though, in Steph's case it was understandable why she thought it was just a job for her in the beginning. She had no prior relation with MC. Kaija had friendship with MC which clearly she did care enough to risk to begin with. If she cared enough, she would never risked the friendship with playing fake lover to MC.

For the love part, I also think she is in love with MC at the end. She maybe care him also. There are enough evidence for that which you showed most of them but I still do think she prioritize her job over MC and if it comes to make a choice between them she would choose her job in a heartbeat. What is my ground on that point? First one which you mentioned, she knew her job was causing a distance between her and MC and she acknowledge it but still chose to follow her orders. If you send her a text she calls you back, yeah but if you don't text her she never cared to call you. Even though you explicitly said her job making you uneasy and she promised you come back before you then broke her promise, she did not cared you to call you. No apology, no explanation, no nothing. You put a few sad Kaija screenshots but there are also jolly Kaija after everything happened. Especially joking with steroid-kevin irritated me. Really, was it really the place? For forcing to meeting part. It was clear proof to my point actually. She knew even a call would hurt MC but when TKT ordered her to meet MC she forced MC to meet her. That was exactly the my point, if she got an order from TKT she would execute it whether or not it hurts MC. Is she in love with MC, yeah; is she still do it because they ordered her, again yeah. That was my point. That's why I said if TKT order to kill MC, she would do it. She may cry afterwards but she would do it anyways.

All in all, her love was never the question. She may love MC or not, she started everything off on the wrong foot. It was the same thing with other route, falling in love with MC afterwards is unimportant. Even their friendship didn't mean too much to her, so she easily risked it. Even today, even if she loves MC if she had to choose between MC and her job, Mc couldn't come close. It is a done deal for her.

P.S. Thanks for long explanation, even though it didn't changed my mind about her. it cleared my mind about where you stand and I do understand why you can give another chance to Kaija. "Everything she did up until now was terrible but what she feel is true love and true love is hard to find. So giving her another chance in the name of love won't be a problem for me." is your stance as I understood and I genuinely understand but after everything she did I do not think there is a way to forgive her.

 

[Illuminati00]

What is the MC's reaction? To doubt everything about this woman who risked her life and broke her command orders to come and ensure that he was safe. He has a right to be upset that some things were kept from him. But to doubt that he can trust her? Have to wonder what someone has to do to prove themselves to the MC. The adult reaction is "not happy about parts of this, but I've no doubt you love me and that I love you, so from this moment forward no secrets. If you can promise me that then we'll go forward and sort out the details." Any other reaction make the MC a whiny undeserving punk.

No, that is absolutely not "the adult reaction". She emotionally manipulated him into a relationship and kept the fact that he was living a lie away from him, all under the aegis of a hidden cult thought to be long dead which his father apparently is grand master of. No human ever would react "oh ok, just don't lie to me next time, ok babe?". How does being angry and untrusting when his girlfriend tricked him into a relationship because her job for a secret cult told her to, all while his father is the leader of said cult who together with his mother hid the truth of the entire world from him and his sister make you "whiny and unworthy"? His entire life has been lies and manipulations committed by the ones who were suppose to love him the most? This must be the most illogical take I've yet to see in this thread.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

What is the MC's reaction? To doubt everything about this woman who risked her life and broke her command orders to come and ensure that he was safe. He has a right to be upset that some things were kept from him. But to doubt that he can trust her? Have to wonder what someone has to do to prove themselves to the MC. The adult reaction is "not happy about parts of this, but I've no doubt you love me and that I love you, so from this moment forward no secrets. If you can promise me that then we'll go forward and sort out the details." Any other reaction make the MC a whiny undeserving punk.

Dude what you said as irrational as irrationality goes. MC has been lied to in his whole life. She wasn't in love with MC to begin with. MC was only a job to her. She did not risked herself because MC, she risked it because her job. Think about everything you lived, everything you felt, everything you shared, everything happened was nothing but a lie. Just try to imagine someone was kissing you not because she loves you but because she has to due to her job, just try to feel what would it be the lost time you live with your fake lover if it was real, just try to understand your love of life was never your love of life but to groomed to be one, just try to see the dreams you shared was never been shared then try to think why what you write is/was impossible. I believe you never truly felt as though you had lost faith in someone; if you had, you would be aware that adopting the "yeah, just move on" mentality is not an option. Never, if ever, will you be able to win back someone's trust.