Speaking of different Kaija routes. One of the more interesting routes is to begin with friendship and after revelations say you love her. A bit counter-intuitive why the MC would do that in the first place, but it could be a really great path.
I disagree... having the MC says he loves Kaija on the friendship path just makes him look like a pathetic simp. Playing as such a character doesn't interest me at all. The time they spent together as boyfriend and girlfriend was a lie, a sham, it was fake. You can't love someone if you don't truly know them, at most, the MC loved who he thought Kaija was.
Speaking of different Kaija routes. One of the more interesting routes is to begin with friendship and after revelations say you love her. A bit counter-intuitive why the MC would do that in the first place, but it could be a really great path.
0 points collected in first chapter, response is MC loves her (and tells her that during bench scene). It's a weird one for sure, but I'm mostly interested in that routing option to see how Kaija is on that path. Does she show any remorse and ultimately, properly apologize to MC, or just keep being "it was my job, what else could I have done?"
And you're just projecting your not nice thoughts. I didn't say that's what it was, I was asking a question to get people to think in a less narrow view. I get it - betrayal sucks, but I 100% disagree with you about Steph, so there's no point in arguing there. We're not going to see eye-to-eye.
If everyone wants to cast Kaija aside, so be it. It's your play through. I'm just trying to give another side of it having hated her at first, read everything here, replayed it in the love route, and see that her feelings were real and she went with them because we're all human and we all want to love and be loved. That's what I see with her. I think the friendship route really skewed how people look at her love route. We all had that knee-jerk reaction to feeling betrayed and wanted to ship her off, but we're still only at the beginning of this. They didn't really have a talk about all this stuff yet - to put everything out there and see where/how they move on from here. So until then, I'm keeping an open mind and giving someone, with whom the MC has been in a relationship for quite some time, the benefit of the doubt. We met Steph at the bar and heard everything she had to say. We know there's a bar at that castle - maybe we find out more of what was going on in Kaija's head.
Until then, I don't think anyone here is going to change anyone else's mind.
No no no, I wasn't accusing you I was merely stating and I am aware mine was also projecting that why I said easy to say. I 100% agree, betrayal sucks though we are not discussing that. We don't need to see eye-to-eye I value your opinion and that's why I responded to your post. Also, I am wondering your take about Steph? How can a job gets complicated is worse than a betrayel from get going?
I really don't think anybody wants to cast Kaija aside and I don't think dev has any intention to doing so. Everyone here simply accepts what Kaija did was terrible, the discussion is, is there a redemption for her? Some say including me, there is no redemption for her; some say I think you are part of it, she has redemption in her love path; some say which I cannot believe how can they think like this, she has a redemption in her both paths.
What Steph revealed at the bar already revealed for Kaija though. What can she say turn things around, I have absoultely no idea. I think she is too deep to get the benefit of the doubt. Only expectation I have about Kaija, we should have a revenge path as severe as possible for her and Templars.
I hope dev gonna keep up the good work he has done.
All this talk about forgiveness, how she tricked MC and so on I think have blindsided from what is important: The future.
If they still do love each other, how can they build something real in the future? What are they going to do to have stable foundation for their relationship? The trust between MC and Kaija is lost. And as far as I can tell, for Kaija, her life/job with the Templars are more important than MC, even in the love route. How are they going to build a future on that? Even in the love route the love between them doesn't seem to be strong enough to overcome such things, even before the revelations.
Finally a very important part is how MC (especially) and Kaija are going to change going forward.
I disagree... having the MC says he loves Kaija on the friendship path just makes him look like a pathetic simp. Playing as such a character doesn't interest me at all. The time they spent together as boyfriend and girlfriend was a lie, a sham, it was fake. You can't love someone if you don't truly know them, at most, the MC loved who he thought Kaija was.
0 points collected in first chapter, response is MC loves her (and tells her that during bench scene). It's a weird one for sure, but I'm mostly interested in that routing option to see how Kaija is on that path. Does she show any remorse and ultimately, properly apologize to MC, or just keep being "it was my job, what else could I have done?"
What Steph revealed at the bar already revealed for Kaija though. What can she say turn things around, I have absoultely no idea. I think she is too deep to get the benefit of the doubt. Only expectation I have about Kaija, we should have a revenge path as severe as possible for her and Templars.
Definitely, her cult is more important for her than the MC. It would be a real missed opportunity for storytelling and a bit unfair to the players to not have a revenge path. It would also be a fantastic way to shape and develop the character. I cannot remember when it was, I think it was after we shot the guy hunting us, but I got a (quite unprompted and unfounded) message saying that I act first and think later in the chapter end screen. I do not know if everyone got this, but I think such choices should decide who the MC is. If he is vengeful, if he is hesitant to kill etc etc.
All this talk about forgiveness, how she tricked MC and so on I think have blindsided from what is important: The future.
If they still do love each other, how can they build something real in the future? What are they going to do to have stable foundation for their relationship? The trust between MC and Kaija is lost. And as far as I can tell, for Kaija, her life/job with the Templars are more important than MC, even in the love route. How are they going to build a future on that? Even in the love route the love between them doesn't seem to be strong enough to overcome such things, even before the revelations.
Finally a very important part is how MC (especially) and Kaija are going to change going forward.
That is actually an interesting point. I cannot see a way to them building a love relationship. Although, if I speculate they can follow bad action movie route. She starts train her, he starts to change then he will become part of the cult. They will fight together, she gets hurt terribly while trying to save MC then MC gets revenge of her while he starts to relove her. In a big fight MC lose someone very close to him, preferably his father. Also becomes good friend with streoid Kevin and maybe he will help kevin's relationship with the barmaid. They will always exchange snarky but playful comments to each other. At last, MC gets his father's revenge took his place as the grandmaster with Kaija at his side and he will bring order and peace to the realm. It would be a good touch if they have a child at the end and they decide they won't repeat MC's family's mistakes. Though this would be very very extremely cheap compare to what we have up until now.
No no no, I wasn't accusing you I was merely stating and I am aware mine was also projecting that why I said easy to say. I 100% agree, betrayal sucks though we are not discussing that. We don't need to see eye-to-eye I value your opinion and that's why I responded to your post. Also, I am wondering your take about Steph? How can a job gets complicated is worse than a betrayel from get going?
I really don't think anybody wants to cast Kaija aside and I don't think dev has any intention to doing so. Everyone here simply accepts what Kaija did was terrible, the discussion is, is there a redemption for her? Some say including me, there is no redemption for her; some say I think you are part of it, she has redemption in her love path; some say which I cannot believe how can they think like this, she has a redemption in her both paths.
What Steph revealed at the bar already revealed for Kaija though. What can she say turn things around, I have absoultely no idea. I think she is too deep to get the benefit of the doubt. Only expectation I have about Kaija, we should have a revenge path as severe as possible for her and Templars.
I hope dev gonna keep up the good work he has done.
No worries. I didn't think you were. I just think no one here is going to change anyone's mind. Which is fine, I was just trying to play devil's advocate for Kaija since most of the thread was shitting on her.
I'm going to replay this because I am remembering a lot of things differently from everyone else, especially about the foundation of the friendship/relationship, which I think, overall, is what's most important for whether or not to forgive Kaija. I don't think there needs to be a revenge path against her, though, but my fingers are tired already from typing everything so far, so I'll keep my reasons. Against the Templars, though, I agree. They are, after all, the root cause of all of this mess.
No worries. I didn't think you were. I just think no one here is going to change anyone's mind. Which is fine, I was just trying to play devil's advocate for Kaija since most of the thread was shitting on her.
Lol, isn't it the whole point of forums on the internet? Everyone repeatedly say same thing without changing their opinion. As long as we keep it civil, no worries.
I'm going to replay this because I am remembering a lot of things differently from everyone else, especially about the foundation of the friendship/relationship, which I think, overall, is what's most important for whether or not to forgive Kaija.
Lol, isn't it the whole point of forums on the internet? Everyone repeatedly say same thing without changing their opinion. As long as we keep it civil, no worries.
Honestly, at first I was doing it just to play devil's advocate, but as I was recalling certain scenes things started churning in my brain and ultimately changed my mind. I don't fully forgive her, but I am interested to see if we see more emotional conversations between the MC and Kaija because even with the love route, a lot of questions are still unanswered or at least need to be expanded upon on Kaija's side.
Anyways, dinner ain't gonna pick itself up and I still need to finish Nephilim... and Oppai Odessey just dropped an update, so...
99% of the time I don't change my mind. This is literally the 1% (unless a dev changes canon or a mechanic, but those times don't count)
I was thinking of doing a whole post and include screenshots, but... god, that sounds exhausting. Maybe. We'll see.
Honestly, at first I was doing it just to play devil's advocate, but as I was recalling certain scenes things started churning in my brain and ultimately changed my mind. I don't fully forgive her, but I am interested to see if we see more emotional conversations between the MC and Kaija because even with the love route, a lot of questions are still unanswered or at least need to be expanded upon on Kaija's side.
Anyways, dinner ain't gonna pick itself up and I still need to finish Nephilim... and Oppai Odessey just dropped an update, so...
for me Kaija is irredemableon the non love path you cant even call it a friend path imo. and in my love path with her if its an option I 100% plan to side against the templars assuming thats an option to see how she truly feels at that point
I've been following and reading this discussion about Kaija for a few days since I played the game, and man, what a well written story can do to a passionate community! Although I'm very, very curious to continue the story (haven't played Fiona route yet tho), I also got some harsh things to say about how Kaija's relationship was developed, or should I say, was introduced. If you're reading this, Ceolag, I'm not asking for spoilers (or to actually answer my question at the end haha), it's just a wondering of mine, but feel free to clarify anything that you find misjudging.
In my main (and first) run I've got the friend route, but I replayed the game to unlock the gallery entries and got the love route, which Kaija's different reaction confused me a lot, and also a lot of people considering how long the discussion went. Much of the things I have to say are not new, you guys already discussed a lot, but something that picked my attention and got me wondering was about how we just focused on our side of the relationship and never knowing much about her social life. Even in the love route saying she loves MC (I know his default name is Alex, but I'm used to call these VNs protagonist as main character), something is undeniable, we actually don't know much of Kaija, we don't know any of her acquaintances outside the Templars, or even much of her likes and preferences. We only know about one thing: her work ambience and her co-workers, so in other words, the Templars. So, what else does she do?
That sound a bit obvious, since we're playing at the MC's perspective and we already knew from the start she was hiding her background and from now on we are expecting things to be clarified, and the friend route heavily lead us to pursue new LIs, but hey, let's not forget about how we got to know the other LIs. Let's take Elea for example. We know a lot about her work ambience (the same as MC's), we can actually hang out with her doing something she likes and got to know a lot about her background. Elea had a great presentation and I really got some fond for her.
So I think the way we were introduced to Kaija was lacking a lot on this point. I know she was supposed to be mysterious and intriguing, but considering she and MC lived together for years, they didn't had much of a bonding moment or getting to conversate out about her life. Heck, not even flashbacks! The start of the chapter 2 would be perfect for that, before or after those questions regarding if we still love her so we could reflect on that. From now on, it doesn't really matter on which route we are, since they actually only matter for Kaija's side. I'm still curious and intrigued to know more about her background, but regardless of how she acts upon us, we are not only getting to know Kaija from a new perspective, but actually getting to know a whole new person in the end.
So, my question is, how Kaija's background can be developed from here? There could be flashbacks like what we had with MC's father, or actually hanging out with her outside the missions and getting to know more about her that isn't related to work. I think that's my main point, especially if there are acquaintances that she knows from outside the work. Maybe there could be other LIs for her to add some competition in the game, that could get a development in the friend route, although I don't remember much adult VNs that does this. No, I don't want NTR, it could be something to lead to a somewhat final straw in her relationship with MC and closing her route. Altough, the best is to just wait and see how things get developed from here.
Game is 10 out of 10, one of my favorites already.
I agree game is 10 out of 10. I've played countless of VN games and this easily belongs to my top 5 list. Actually.. I don't even want to make a list because there are so many great games, but this definitely belongs to one!
DISCLAIMER: On my first (canon) run, I rejected Kaija (choosing "No" for love) because my initial reaction was that of feeling betrayed. Similar to that of Stephanie in LoF, the MC's partner has shown to have been hiding a life from him and had ulterior motives for being with him. Due to the discussions in this thread, I went back to try the "love" path and see the difference. I did see a different and shared my thoughts about it. Before I replay the game, I would like to reiterate here that I believe that she DID love the MC and is redeemable.
THE PLAYTHROUGH: I will be replaying the game and expressing my thoughts as I go. I will use the walkthrough mod and choose all green options (except for one which I feel helps this argument). I will reject all other characters (for the sake of time) and mostly skip scenes involving them. Below, I will recap what I witness and quote lines from the game, maybe even some screen shots if needed. All of this is from my perspective. I will be taking what Kaija says at face value. I will also express thoughts I feel are not in Kaija's defense if I feel necessary. Critical Thinking questions will be in blue text and serve as my thoughts of understanding/justifying a situation/dialogue.
SPOILERS AHEAD - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
FROM THE INTRODUCTION: "You'll start this game by being in a relationship. This relationship is put to a severe test at the start of Chapter 2. After that, it's up to you to rekindle or move on." We begin the game in a relationship with Kaija ("K") that has progressed as far as living together. [By the way, is there a purpose to leaving the bathroom door open?]
We start at home with K. After a conversation about K's work and how it takes her away from home often, she thinks "This cannot go on. I need to figure something out or we will both suffer from this situation even more." Now, this one is interesting. She has some internal struggle about her "situation" but she acknowledges here that she, as well as MC, is suffering from her work/life balance. Is she suffering from being away from MC for so long? From having to hide her work or lie to him? Or because she does not want to be in this situation? K says she will be home by the time MC returns from work.
During work, we receive a phone call from K. She tells us that she has to leave for business for a few days and won't be home tonight. Given that she is leaving for a few days, I am surprised that she does not end the call with "I love you" as I would expect from a relationship which as evolved into living together.
We leave work and head to the bar. I am curious, though, if Kevin knows who we are and that is why he is staring at us. It's likely that he does, given what we learn about the MC's status later. We then head home. When we wake up the next morning, we have still not heard from K. We text her before work. Later at the office, K calls us. She apologizes for not texting us sooner. When we ask where she is, she hesitates but answers "Neverwhere". She tells the MC the name of a place which is supposed to remain hidden from the world. This shows trust. If she didn't trust us, why would she reveal classified information? Again, at the end of the call, no "I love you."
After a meeting with our boss, we get a call from our mom that we need to leave immediately as our father has been kidnapped and you are the next target. She sent a driver, who we meet and begin driving to our parent's house. We are then attacked by unknown agents. Our car is flipped, the the enemy approaches. K then shows up on a motorcycle, kills a couple baddies, and sits next to us. Thee first thing she asks is "Are you okay?" Is she asking because she cares? Or because we are her responsibility to protect (which we don't know yet)? We ask why she is there, she responds "I heard the news about you being in danger and getting picked up. So I left the mission behind and came to make sure you get to safety." We ask if she could get in trouble. She responds "Maybe. I don't care." She put the MC before her current mission. If he was nothing but an assignment, and we are getting picked up by an agent already, why bother showing up at all? Because she does actually care about MC, to some extent at the very least. We prepare to fight and tell her to be careful. She responds "I will. You too please, you hear me?" Adding "please" and "you hear me?" makes this personal. There is no actual need to say anything after "You too". Bart (a baddie) throws K to the ground during a fight. We come up behind him with a gun and point it at the back of his head. We shoot. K is saddened by this.
She hugs you and tells you that she blames herself. She is sad because you had to be the one to do this. She wanted to save you from this. She was trained to do this, you were not. It is very likely she is aware of the mental and emotion trauma one can go through when they take a life, something she did not want you to have to experience because she cares for you and blames herself for failing you. You leave on her bike. On the highway, she speeds up which you are a bit uneasy about. She does slow down, so she is at least considerate of your feelings.
You arrive at your parents house and are greeted by your sister. She thanks K for saving you. She responds "Things like that go without saying." Again, showing that saving you is a choice she would make without a second of thought of consequences. Now comes... the talk.
When we ask where she is, she hesitates but answers "Neverwhere". She tells the MC the name of a place which is supposed to remain hidden from the world. This shows trust. If she didn't trust us, why would she reveal classified information? Again, at the end of the call, no "I love you."
She only trusts that MC won't understand, so it isn't that much of a positive. MC don't have a secured phone, so Kaija could potentially land in trouble is someone listens in.
And interesting that it is possible to call from inside Neverwhere to the outside. I wonder what kind of limitations that has. Could MC call one of the elves if he has the right number?
EDIT: About no "I love you", the only time Kaija expresses love for anything in the first chapter is when she says she loves her job.
DISCLAIMER: On my first (canon) run, I rejected Kaija (choosing "No" for love) because my initial reaction was that of feeling betrayed. Similar to that of Stephanie in LoF, the MC's partner has shown to have been hiding a life from him and had ulterior motives for being with him. Due to the discussions in this thread, I went back to try the "love" path and see the difference. I did see a different and shared my thoughts about it. Before I replay the game, I would like to reiterate here that I believe that she DID love the MC and is redeemable.
THE PLAYTHROUGH: I will be replaying the game and expressing my thoughts as I go. I will use the walkthrough mod and choose all green options (except for one which I feel helps this argument). I will reject all other characters (for the sake of time) and mostly skip scenes involving them. Below, I will recap what I witness and quote lines from the game, maybe even some screen shots if needed. All of this is from my perspective. I will be taking what Kaija says at face value. I will also express thoughts I feel are not in Kaija's defense if I feel necessary. Critical Thinking questions will be in blue text and serve as my thoughts of understanding/justifying a situation/dialogue.
SPOILERS AHEAD - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
THE REVEAL: At our parent's house, we are sat at the table with our mother, sister, and Kaija ("K"). Here is where we learn who our father really is and the organization he is the leader of, The Knights Templar ("TKT") . Your mother tries, but K explains calmly who the TKT are. Here is where K admits she is one of them. She looks down at first, and when she speaks next, she does not raise her head entirely - just enough to make eye contact with you. She is feeling shame here. Mainly, shame for deceiving you. Why else would she hang her head? Because she feels guilty. She is showing herself as vulnerable to you by lowering her head. Vulnerability is not something humans generally show people we have no feelings for, whether they be of familial or romantic.
She started training for TKT years before her eighteenth birthday. The MC responds "That is as long as we have known each other." Jessica asks K how her and MC met. K explains "A few weeks after I officially joined the Templars, I was approached by one of our supervisors. He knew, of course, that you and me had been friends since our teens. He asked me if we were more than friends. I told him that was none of his business." She continues "They tried to force me to get closer to you. They wanted me close to you so I could protect you, if needed." She says 'tried' here meaning their attempts to progress K's and MC's relationship did not work. Our father then spoke with her. They agreed that she would be the MC's protector, she explains "How I managed that was up to me." We ask her "So you thought it was a good idea to lie to me and pretend you like me?" to which K responds "What? No. At that point we had been friends for years. I always enjoyed spending time with you. I thought it would be easy. Just spend more time with him. Do friend stuff. No problem." Let's pause... so, we have an already established friendship between K and the MC. K admits she likes spending time with him, and she was not being forced to become more than friends with you. This is an argument I read a lot here - that TKT was forcing her into this relationship. They didn't. In fact, they didn't force them to be friends. They already were. They just made use of that established friendship to add protection to a valuable person. Be it a coincidence or fate, it was not unnatural.
K continues "The more time we spent together, the more I enjoyed being near you." I mean, isn't this how friendships can realistically progress into a relationship? When you start dating someone, you're not a couple. You're two people getting to know one another. Most of the couples I know were friends before they started dating. Some of them for years before either of them made a move. This entire timeline of progression is 100% realistically believable.
Now, here's where things can be foggy... MC asks her how much of "this" was a show. K responds "In the beginning? Pretty much everything except the original friendship. In the end? Nothing!" MC's mom then says that K had no choice; "You were friends already, and it was a chance to make sure you stayed safe..." I'm not entirely sure how to take K's response. What is the "everything" she is referring to? It almost reads like she didn't want to stay friends with you but was forced to, but that doesn't make sense when earlier she said that she enjoyed spending time with you. However, it is said multiple times that MC and K were already friends before she was asked to do this, so there was an honest foundation for their friendship & relationship. Her feelings developed naturally. I think I can say that objectively. We then try to leave, but K, seeing how hurt we are, tells us to stay and that she will leave.
She whispers this, seemingly to herself as we do not see a reaction from anyone else that they heard this. Assuming she knows no one can hear this, why say it at all if she doesn't mean it?
We say goodnight and after washing up, sit by the fire in the living room. Here we have the biggest question. MC thinks "How will I be able to trust her [Kaija]... them [mom & dad]... ever again?" I believe the overarching argument here is not questioning K's love, but her trust. Granted, trust is an important part of loving someone. There can be no love without trust, lest it be shallow love, which this has never presented itself as being. Jess then comes to join us (and how dare you not let me lewd my hot sister). Now we have a pretty big talk with her. Here is where we decide if we love K (I'll give you a hint, we do). Jessica says "She [Kaija] left her mission behind, knowing she would be in trouble. She loves you too. Even more than that. We girls have a sense for these things. I can see it in her eyes. She had completely fallen for you. And she's made at herself for what she did. Not because of the consequences for her, but because she hurt you." Let's be honest... a huge lie was just revealed to us. It is 100% expected that we start to question everything even remotely related to that lie. That does not mean, however, that everything in between was also a lie. Jess is looking at our situation from the outside. While we may be blinded by anger, she is not. I fully believe what she tells us in this scene. I trust her and do not think she would lie to us about this, seeing how hurt we are by it. The next morning, we decide to go back home to think about everything.
She started training for TKT years before her eighteenth birthday. The MC responds "That is as long as we have known each other." Jessica asks K how her and MC met. K explains "A few weeks after I officially joined the Templars, I was approached by one of our supervisors. He knew, of course, that you and me had been friends since our teens. He asked me if we were more than friends. I told him that was none of his business." She continues "They tried to force me to get closer to you. They wanted me close to you so I could protect you, if needed." She says 'tried' here meaning their attempts to progress K's and MC's relationship did not work. Our father then spoke with her. They agreed that she would be the MC's protector, she explains "How I managed that was up to me." We ask her "So you thought it was a good idea to lie to me and pretend you like me?" to which K responds "What? No. At that point we had been friends for years. I always enjoyed spending time with you. I thought it would be easy. Just spend more time with him. Do friend stuff. No problem." Let's pause... so, we have an already established friendship between K and the MC. K admits she likes spending time with him, and she was not being forced to become more than friends with you. This is an argument I read a lot here - that TKT was forcing her into this relationship. They didn't. In fact, they didn't force them to be friends. They already were. They just made use of that established friendship to add protection to a valuable person. Be it a coincidence or fate, it was not unnatural.
K continues "The more time we spent together, the more I enjoyed being near you." I mean, isn't this how friendships can realistically progress into a relationship? When you start dating someone, you're not a couple. You're two people getting to know one another. Most of the couples I know were friends before they started dating. Some of them for years before either of them made a move. This entire timeline of progression is 100% realistically believable.
This indicates that even if they were friends before, their meeting in the first place is suspicious. Seems someone in the Templars really want to cultivate a friendship/lovers between Kaija and MC.
Second, this is the essence of the "forced" argument:
MC: But we were just friends back then.
Kaija: Yeah. Still got into an argument with him. I ended up in front of the leadership.
Kaija: They tried to force me to get closer to you. They wanted me close to you so I could protect you, if needed.
The leadership wanted Kaija as close as possible to MC. Kaija resisted. Which is pretty funny since Kaija seem to always be away on missions.
In fact, I'm a bit suspicious about if the Templars leadership actually want to protect MC. The protection they gave MC is never around to protect him. When MC gets a real threat they only send a chauffeur without any support. It's like all they have done is just for show to be able to say to Mom and Dad that they have done something for his protection.
DISCLAIMER: On my first (canon) run, I rejected Kaija (choosing "No" for love) because my initial reaction was that of feeling betrayed. Similar to that of Stephanie in LoF, the MC's partner has shown to have been hiding a life from him and had ulterior motives for being with him. Due to the discussions in this thread, I went back to try the "love" path and see the difference. I did see a different and shared my thoughts about it. Before I replay the game, I would like to reiterate here that I believe that she DID love the MC and is redeemable.
THE PLAYTHROUGH: I will be replaying the game and expressing my thoughts as I go. I will use the walkthrough mod and choose all green options (except for one which I feel helps this argument). I will reject all other characters (for the sake of time) and mostly skip scenes involving them. Below, I will recap what I witness and quote lines from the game, maybe even some screen shots if needed. All of this is from my perspective. I will be taking what Kaija says at face value. I will also express thoughts I feel are not in Kaija's defense if I feel necessary. Critical Thinking questions will be in blue text and serve as my thoughts of understanding/justifying a situation/dialogue.
SPOILERS AHEAD - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
THE REVEAL: At our parent's house, we are sat at the table with our mother, sister, and Kaija ("K"). Here is where we learn who our father really is and the organization he is the leader of, The Knights Templar ("TKT") . Your mother tries, but K explains calmly who the TKT are. Here is where K admits she is one of them. She looks down at first, and when she speaks next, she does not raise her head entirely - just enough to make eye contact with you. She is feeling shame here. Mainly, shame for deceiving you. Why else would she hang her head? Because she feels guilty. She is showing herself as vulnerable to you by lowering her head. Vulnerability is not something humans generally show people we have no feelings for, whether they be of familial or romantic.
She started training for TKT years before her eighteenth birthday. The MC responds "That is as long as we have known each other." Jessica asks K how her and MC met. K explains "A few weeks after I officially joined the Templars, I was approached by one of our supervisors. He knew, of course, that you and me had been friends since our teens. He asked me if we were more than friends. I told him that was none of his business." She continues "They tried to force me to get closer to you. They wanted me close to you so I could protect you, if needed." She says 'tried' here meaning their attempts to progress K's and MC's relationship did not work. Our father then spoke with her. They agreed that she would be the MC's protector, she explains "How I managed that was up to me." We ask her "So you thought it was a good idea to lie to me and pretend you like me?" to which K responds "What? No. At that point we had been friends for years. I always enjoyed spending time with you. I thought it would be easy. Just spend more time with him. Do friend stuff. No problem." Let's pause... so, we have an already established friendship between K and the MC. K admits she likes spending time with him, and she was not being forced to become more than friends with you. This is an argument I read a lot here - that TKT was forcing her into this relationship. They didn't. In fact, they didn't force them to be friends. They already were. They just made use of that established friendship to add protection to a valuable person. Be it a coincidence or fate, it was not unnatural.
K continues "The more time we spent together, the more I enjoyed being near you." I mean, isn't this how friendships can realistically progress into a relationship? When you start dating someone, you're not a couple. You're two people getting to know one another. Most of the couples I know were friends before they started dating. Some of them for years before either of them made a move. This entire timeline of progression is 100% realistically believable.
Now, here's where things can be foggy... MC asks her how much of "this" was a show. K responds "In the beginning? Pretty much everything except the original friendship. In the end? Nothing!" MC's mom then says that K had no choice; "You were friends already, and it was a chance to make sure you stayed safe..." I'm not entirely sure how to take K's response. What is the "everything" she is referring to? It almost reads like she didn't want to stay friends with you but was forced to, but that doesn't make sense when earlier she said that she enjoyed spending time with you. However, it is said multiple times that MC and K were already friends before she was asked to do this, so there was an honest foundation for their friendship & relationship. Her feelings developed naturally. I think I can say that objectively. We then try to leave, but K, seeing how hurt we are, tells us to stay and that she will leave.
She whispers this, seemingly to herself as we do not see a reaction from anyone else that they heard this. Assuming she knows no one can hear this, why say it at all if she doesn't mean it?
We say goodnight and after washing up, sit by the fire in the living room. Here we have the biggest question. MC thinks "How will I be able to trust her [Kaija]... them [mom & dad]... ever again?" I believe the overarching argument here is not questioning K's love, but her trust. Granted, trust is an important part of loving someone. There can be no love without trust, lest it be shallow love, which this has never presented itself as being. Jess then comes to join us (and how dare you not let me lewd my hot sister). Now we have a pretty big talk with her. Here is where we decide if we love K (I'll give you a hint, we do). Jessica says "She [Kaija] left her mission behind, knowing she would be in trouble. She loves you too. Even more than that. We girls have a sense for these things. I can see it in her eyes. She had completely fallen for you. And she's made at herself for what she did. Not because of the consequences for her, but because she hurt you." Let's be honest... a huge lie was just revealed to us. It is 100% expected that we start to question everything even remotely related to that lie. That does not mean, however, that everything in between was also a lie. Jess is looking at our situation from the outside. While we may be blinded by anger, she is not. I fully believe what she tells us in this scene. I trust her and do not think she would lie to us about this, seeing how hurt we are by it. The next morning, we decide to go back home to think about everything.
Reading through all of this as well as part one I get the feeling that the main argument is that she loves the MC and regret what she did to him. I truly doubt that anyone is denying that she actually began loving him on the love route, she proves it to us a few times. What I wish to bring notice to however is that love and "friend" route Kaija are not different people. The way you make her love you is choosing the right actions whilst you are in a relationship. I think this is undeniably proof that you were in a relationship first only for her to fall in love with you later.
For the Neverwhere comment, as has already been pointed out, the name means nothing to the MC, and Kaija knows this. She already felt bad and it is most likely if not most definitely a way for her to technically not lie for once. A selfish action meant to help herself, not the MC.
As to her comment about how much has been a lie, her answer is "In the beginning? Pretty much everything except the original friendship. In the end? Nothing!". You ask what she means with "everything". For her to say everything means that they were something else other than friends "in the begining". So they were in a relationship and she said that everything about it apart from the friendship was a lie. I see no other possible answer than her lying about her feelings. They would not have become a couple unless both said they had feelings for the other. While certain people started loving each other after starting the relationship, those types of people are usually in arranged relationships. It is highly rare for two people to start dating without having any romantic feelings for each other, especially two good friends. Considering her order was to be close to him, it is very possible that she initiated the relationship , adding another layer to her lies and manipulations.
To me, saying that she did begin loving him and started to regret it really does not absolve her of anything. I've said it before here, if you murder someone and then start regretting murdering that person, should you be forgiven? Notice that I said started regretting murdering THAT person. Kaija felt bad for it, but she never once showed any remorse for her tactics, her remorse came from her deceiving someone she loved, not for emotionally manipulating him so she could follow the assignment given to her by her cult. This is shown on the "friend" route, where she is completely emotionless about it, not seeing anything wrong in it. Yes, they are different routes, but she is still the same person. The only difference between them is that she started loving the MC.
DISCLAIMER: On my first (canon) run, I rejected Kaija (choosing "No" for love) because my initial reaction was that of feeling betrayed. Similar to that of Stephanie in LoF, the MC's partner has shown to have been hiding a life from him and had ulterior motives for being with him. Due to the discussions in this thread, I went back to try the "love" path and see the difference. I did see a different and shared my thoughts about it. Before I replay the game, I would like to reiterate here that I believe that she DID love the MC and is redeemable.
THE PLAYTHROUGH: I will be replaying the game and expressing my thoughts as I go. I will use the walkthrough mod and choose all green options (except for one which I feel helps this argument). I will reject all other characters (for the sake of time) and mostly skip scenes involving them. Below, I will recap what I witness and quote lines from the game, maybe even some screen shots if needed. All of this is from my perspective. I will be taking what Kaija says at face value. I will also express thoughts I feel are not in Kaija's defense if I feel necessary. Critical Thinking questions will be in blue text and serve as my thoughts of understanding/justifying a situation/dialogue.
Again, Kaija ("K") is saddened. We only see this scene if we do not go to Fiona's (which is fine, I don't want to be complicit in her next plan to kill poor people). That entire narration seems to capture her thoughts... hopes, even...
Love is strange... You think you'll do everything for someone... And you try to do so, you really do... You try to shield them from pain... And danger... You lie to them... Because sometimes you have no other choice... Right? They might be mad at you... But they will understand... with enough time... They need to... Because that hope is the only thing that keeps you going... But no matter what... In the end everything falls apart... Love is strange... Love hurts, love scars...
I'm going to be honest, unless you never went back to the apartment and completely missed this scene, there is no way you cannot read that as she is hurting because she hurt someone she loves. It is spelled out plain as day.
We go to work. We give Elea the short version of what went down. The next day, we go to the beach with Elea (and not just because I get to JUMP IN! the General Lee). Again, we get kind of a weird situation. Elea asks if K is our girlfriend. If we choose Yes, the MC explains "She kinda is. At least I see it that way. Not sure about her." This seems like more second guessing. We express that we are unsure how she see us. I mean, so far in this story, she has yet to tell us that she loves us outside of that whisper when she was leaving our parent's house that we likely did not hear. After Elea questions his answer, he explains "She lied to me and hid things from me. I understand her reasons, it's just..." ... "...What else was a lie? It's one of the things that keeps my mind busy these days." More second guessing, which is to be expected in this situation. It is not something that - if the relationship ever meant anything to the MC - should be rushed.
On the way back from the beach, we get a phone call from K. She needs to talk to us about the meeting we are supposed to have the next day. Now, a lot of people harped on that she didn't give the MC an option and forced him to go. That is a reach if there ever was one. Obviously she can't talk about a secret world on an unsecured phone. Not even going to entertain that argument. We answer the phone and K says "Sorry for disturbing you..." Why does she start with that? Why is she apologizing? Because she understands that you need space to process all of this and she is interrupting that. She is considerate of your feelings.
We meet K on a bench along the promenade. A place were they had spent countless evenings. Why have the meeting there? Maybe it provides her some comfort, if the two of you have memories there. Maybe she's hoping to remind you of them. Either way, she still looks hurt.
She tells you that you will need to be picked up for the meeting. She offers to find someone else if you don't want to go with her. At the very least, by now, you have to admit she is at least considerate of the MC. If you do decide to go with her, she tells you that she can pick you up early and give you a tour. Why? She doesn't have to. So I'll harp back on Part 2 - she likes spending time with you.
Now comes the talk... well, a talk. We have 3 questions to ask her.
Why did you never tell me? She was scared. She knew that if she told you the truth, she could lose you. She was afraid of that happening. Since I'm arguing if she loves you here... that's pretty solid evidence. She wasn't afraid of failing her mission, she was afraid of losing you.
Do you love me? "Yes." Just a simple 'yes'? Weird, right? "Because I do without any restrictions. Any more words will just devalue the answer." Pretty fuckin poetic, if you ask me. This is the first time she tells MC to his face. She continues, "We need to figure this out, MC. The sooner the better. Or it'll destroy the both of us."
[unimportant to my point]
We ask her to sit with us for a little while. She responds "I'd love to... I missed this." It's one of her favorite places in the city. She explains "Not the place. Well... the place, too. But what made me love it was being here with you." We say our goodbyes and head home.
TO BE CONTINUED IN PART 4 After a short break because this is a lot and I'm supposed to be working...
