VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.4.0] [Ceolag]

[Illuminati00]

Hey guys,

please understand that I won't answer story-related questions in any way. That's not meant to piss you off or something but just to prevent me from spoiling too much. Of course, some questions may only be slight spoilers but I want to stay away from that completely.
I do read all your comments and appreciate them.
Most of these things will be explained later in the story, some even right at the start of Chapter 3. It's one of the downsides of releasing "incomplete" games, I guess



Thanks again for your work, Gorse.
If you want or need any render or animation in original (non-compressed) quality, feel free to contact me. I still have everything I used for the game saved.

No story reply is completely understandable, a question worth knowing the answer to however is if characters will keep loving you if you started a romance but then stopped. Will they stop loving you after you stop trying or will they keep love you and be sad when you reject them. Kaija for example will confess her love if you got enough stars, do you need to keep getting points up for this to continue in the story or will they still love you due to your previous actions?

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Hey guys,

please understand that I won't answer story-related questions in any way. That's not meant to piss you off or something but just to prevent me from spoiling too much. Of course, some questions may only be slight spoilers but I want to stay away from that completely.
I do read all your comments and appreciate them.
Most of these things will be explained later in the story, some even right at the start of Chapter 3. It's one of the downsides of releasing "incomplete" games, I guess

Spoiler: I tried

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I believe my question wasn't story related but general direction. Though, if you think that is a spoiler then I am excited. I already thought that was a possibilty since ambassodor is a big part of the game but now I am just excited what will story bring.

 

[nitkonikic]

Can't say I agree with wanting revenge on Kaija.

MC should be a better person than she is, better person than Templars are. His mother, his father, Kaija, all of them lied big fucking time to him. My personal hope is we get to leave them at some point. They are not trustworthy.

However, I also completely understand it can't just happen. Game must have some exposition, world building, it must have some introductions to both sides of the coin. As long as we're not forced to be their pet and do their bidding, I'm fine with MC sticking with Templars at the start of a game.

Revenge though? Eh, not seeing why MC would go for it. First two chapters paint MC as a good person, crushed by what he found out.

Shocked and lost emotions wise, also why I think "I don't know" is best answer to question if he still loves Kaija. You don't stop loving someone in one minute of conversation, especially if he loved her for years. The "Do you still have girlfriend" choice is different though. He absolutely can say "no" at that point, if the trust is completely lost and the farce is over.

Unlike one other VN (certain game that starts in hell), MC of this game strikes me as honest, loyal, good. Wouldn't make sense for him to just go and sacrifice people to be evil or be hell-bent on revenge. And frankly, I hope it stays that way. I love me a good anti-hero story, but girls in this VN don't deserve an a-hole (well, Kaija does), they're too nice for that (at least so far).

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Revenge though? Eh, not seeing why MC would go for it. First two chapters paint MC as a good person, crushed by what he found out.

MC is, I am not.

Shocked and lost emotions wise, also why I think "I don't know" is best answer to question if he still loves Kaija. You don't stop loving someone in one minute of conversation, especially if he loved her for years. The "Do you still have girlfriend" choice is different though. He absolutely can say "no" at that point, if the trust is completely lost and the farce is over.

To be honest, he was mulling about the relationship even before the shitshow.

 

[Illuminati00]

Can't say I agree with wanting revenge on Kaija.

MC should be a better person than she is, better person than Templars are. His mother, his father, Kaija, all of them lied big fucking time to him. My personal hope is we get to leave them at some point. They are not trustworthy.

However, I also completely understand it can't just happen. Game must have some exposition, world building, it must have some introductions to both sides of the coin. As long as we're not forced to be their pet and do their bidding, I'm fine with MC sticking with Templars at the start of a game.

Revenge though? Eh, not seeing why MC would go for it. First two chapters paint MC as a good person, crushed by what he found out.

Shocked and lost emotions wise, also why I think "I don't know" is best answer to question if he still loves Kaija. You don't stop loving someone in one minute of conversation, especially if he loved her for years. The "Do you still have girlfriend" choice is different though. He absolutely can say "no" at that point, if the trust is completely lost and the farce is over.

Unlike one other VN (certain game that starts in hell), MC of this game strikes me as honest, loyal, good. Wouldn't make sense for him to just go and sacrifice people to be evil or be hell-bent on revenge. And frankly, I hope it stays that way. I love me a good anti-hero story, but girls in this VN don't deserve an a-hole (well, Kaija does), they're too nice for that (at least so far).

Sticking with the templars is a must, there isn't really any other choice at the moment. People are out to get him and they are the only defense that he has. About the mc, visual novels are all about self-insertion. While the protagonist should have a personality, the player should have choices. You say he is honest and loyal, something I agree with, but this is not a normal situation, his entire life has broken down. While he has been honest, loyal and good, the people he trusted the most have been the complete opposite towards him. How he reacts to such a big issue is the point of choices, it's what makes a novel not kinetic. If you want him to just try to ignore and escape them so he can settle down with another LI, that would be in character, if you choose that you want him to be vengeful and angry, that too would be in character for someone who has been so betrayed. You don't have agree with such a choice, but these types of choices are indeed what makes it a visual novel and not a kinetic. The big story choices should be up to the player, especially if it is about something the player personally got affected by, betrayal for instance. It always leaves a bad taste when the mc makes such an important choice himself, it ruins the immersion and self-insertion.

Just to reply to this bit: " Shocked and lost emotions wise, also why I think "I don't know" is best answer to question if he still loves Kaija. You don't stop loving someone in one minute of conversation, especially if he loved her for years. "

Yes you do. Love can be so very powerful, but also very frail. You can love someone for years, but after finding out they have been unfaithful your feelings can completely disappear, and I would say that what she did was much worse than cheating. Not to mention that if you say that you don't love her your character himself comments that the relationship had not been going super well these last days.

 

[nitkonikic]

Sticking with the templars is a must, there isn't really any other choice at the moment. People are out to get him and they are the only defense that he has. About the mc, visual novels are all about self-insertion. While the protagonist should have a personality, the player should have choices. You say he is honest and loyal, something I agree with, but this is not a normal situation, his entire life has broken down. While he has been honest, loyal and good, the people he trusted the most have been the complete opposite towards him. How he reacts to such a big issue is the point of choices, it's what makes a novel not kinetic. If you want him to just try to ignore and escape them so he can settle down with another LI, that would be in character, if you choose that you want him to be vengeful and angry, that too would be in character for someone who has been so betrayed. You don't have agree with such a choice, but these types of choices are indeed what makes it a visual novel and not a kinetic. The big story choices should be up to the player, especially if it is about something the player personally got affected by, betrayal for instance. It always leaves a bad taste when the mc makes such an important choice himself, it ruins the immersion and self-insertion.

You know, I agree. Mostly.

Or I would, if this was CRPG made by huge team of developers. VNs developed for this site can only have so many routes. And that's not a complaint about dev (who has done amazing fucking job so far), just reality.

Would I love to have a game which asks for dozens of choices each chapter and leads to hundreds of different paths? Well duh.

My point is that from what is seen so far, and from how much freedom game allowed so far, it would be out of character for MC to go for revenge. Characters made by devs are made (at least how I see it) with some personality in mind. Sure, there is character development, changes in character over time due to events and so on, but ultimately one path makes more sense than others.

If you've played Witcher 3, think of it that way. It makes no sense for Geralt to kill innocents, forest creatures that talk to him and such. In some cases you can do it, sure, but overall it's out of character since it's pre-developed character, we're navigating it to end of his story.
That's how I view most VNs, we navigate pre-made character through his/her story, making some decisions in their life.

CRPGs are probably only genre where I expect absolute and full freedom of choice. Those are "make your own character in the world created by devs".

So just to stay on-topic, I stand behind my opinion MC (currently) should not be turned into revenge driven character. That might change with future chapters, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

EDIT: And at the risk of sounding like brown-nosing , I want to see a story dev wants to make. So far the story, available choices and development have been nothing short of brilliant, and I believe it will continue that way. I'm happy following that story and navigating MC where options are given. Fanbase tossing ideas that devs sometimes incorporate into game usually ends up a complete mess. Would hate to see that happen here.

 

[Illuminati00]

You know, I agree. Mostly.

Or I would, if this was CRPG made by huge team of developers. VNs developed for this site can only have so many routes. And that's not a complaint about dev (who has done amazing fucking job so far), just reality.

Would I love to have a game which asks for dozens of choices each chapter and leads to hundreds of different paths? Well duh.

My point is that from what is seen so far, and from how much freedom game allowed so far, it would be out of character for MC to go for revenge. Characters made by devs are made (at least how I see it) with some personality in mind. Sure, there is character development, changes in character over time due to events and so on, but ultimately one path makes more sense than others.

If you've played Witcher 3, think of it that way. It makes no sense for Geralt to kill innocents, forest creatures that talk to him and such. In some cases you can do it, sure, but overall it's out of character since it's pre-developed character, we're navigating it to end of his story.
That's how I view most VNs, we navigate pre-made character through his/her story, making some decisions in their life.

CRPGs are probably only genre where I expect absolute and full freedom of choice. Those are "make your own character in the world created by devs".

So just to stay on-topic, I stand behind my opinion MC (currently) should not be turned into revenge driven character. That might change with future chapters, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

EDIT: And at the risk of sounding like brown-nosing , I want to see a story dev wants to make. So far the story, available choices and development have been nothing short of brilliant, and I believe it will continue that way. I'm happy following that story and navigating MC where options are given. Fanbase tossing ideas that devs sometimes incorporate into game usually ends up a complete mess. Would hate to see that happen here.

I agree with you on the first point. Nobody can expect a developer to make a million routes, it is asking for too much. We would all love to have such a game though, of course.

I also respect your view that the MC should not go for revenge, but I really don't see it as out of character. At this moment in the story, he and his sister are the people who would go through more development than anyone else, finally being introduced to the truth of the world. The betrayal from not only his long time girlfriend but also his own mother and father is enough to give anyone major trust issues as well as other types issues. I really do not see how it is out of character for the MC to want to get revenge. With revenge I do not mean kill her (not that I wouldn't if I got the chance.), but something to get back. Sure, he has not been shown to be vindictive, but most of his characterization comes from before the reveal. How would we react if our mothers suddenly calls us to tell us that elves and magic are real and that they work for some medieval knightly order. When such statements gets proven, I really don't see many people staying completely the same. Neither do I hope the MC will. The developer has done a mighty fine job with the game, but I will call bad writing if he doesn't at least get some semblance of trust issues.

You are right, it does not make sense in the Witcher for Gerald to kill innocents or friendly creatures that can talk with him, but I can not think of a moment in the game where we don't get to choose what to do with such a plot point. Forgiving or getting revenge on a dear friend that betrayed you is exactly a choice that would be given in the Witcher.

I never expected complete freedom of choice, I have not heard of this CRPG, but that genre of game sounds quite fun. But such a big plot point is not complete freedom of choice, I think deciding what to do with your fake girlfriend of how knows many years is exactly the kind of choice that are given in a visual novel. I am not saying that he should be a revenge driven character, to wish for revenge and to be revenge driven are two different things.

I too want to see the story he wishes to tell, and wanting revenge is not just some idea the fanbase are trying to toss, it's a quite natural and human reaction to such a grave betrayal, something some would say is even expected. I want to see his story as well, but for it to be a visual novel where self-insertion is important, such choices should be present. Again, I am not saying remove her from the story or turn to the enemies side (though I would enjoy that), I am saying that revenge somehow should be an option.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

You know, I agree. Mostly.

Or I would, if this was CRPG made by huge team of developers. VNs developed for this site can only have so many routes. And that's not a complaint about dev (who has done amazing fucking job so far), just reality.

Would I love to have a game which asks for dozens of choices each chapter and leads to hundreds of different paths? Well duh.

My point is that from what is seen so far, and from how much freedom game allowed so far, it would be out of character for MC to go for revenge. Characters made by devs are made (at least how I see it) with some personality in mind. Sure, there is character development, changes in character over time due to events and so on, but ultimately one path makes more sense than others.

If you've played Witcher 3, think of it that way. It makes no sense for Geralt to kill innocents, forest creatures that talk to him and such. In some cases you can do it, sure, but overall it's out of character since it's pre-developed character, we're navigating it to end of his story.
That's how I view most VNs, we navigate pre-made character through his/her story, making some decisions in their life.

CRPGs are probably only genre where I expect absolute and full freedom of choice. Those are "make your own character in the world created by devs".

So just to stay on-topic, I stand behind my opinion MC (currently) should not be turned into revenge driven character. That might change with future chapters, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

Well tbh not even RPG games have that many options. I know very few has them. You said Witcher 3 but it basically have 2 LI(shit you remind me again Shani was not LI) ending, 3 world politics and a few side character endings. Even then they couldn't handle the workload and they cut huge chunk of the story. I.E. elven storyline got butchered, final fight in Novigrad also got butchered. Anyways, I try to say if you do not scale your work and plan your road even if you are a big studio and releasing finale of a series, you may not deliver what you promise. Also, I wholeheartedly agree what dev created is a masterpiece here. But a revenge path or an elven path is not too far fetched neither for the story nor character. He can fight if needed, he can kill if needed. He is nice but not to level of naivety. If needs to be he can cruel and depends on the scale of revenge and circumstances he is capable of doing stuff. A subplot for the revenge or a path for elven side can very well be part of the game. Another example, he did confront an unknown buff guy for an unknown lady. A small example of him being not shy of confrontations or even petty revenges. Although I agree a revenge driven MC will be shallow and would cheapen the story's worth, a subplot for getting his revenge and being confrontational against Kaija and his parents would be nice touch. For example, if MC tried to beat Eric it would be stupid and out of his character but a snarky comment perfect for the occasion and totally in his character. Just scale that to what his parents and Kaija did to him compared to Eric, it would be perfect amount of revenge from MC. What we didn't like and found out of his character and reality, him agreeing to meet Kaija, him agreeing to help Templars without even having second thoughts, being extremely nice to Kaija etc. Do you really think he would be nice to her? To his parents? I do get it why he had to align himself with the templars but doing without having hidden agenda is plain stupid for him, asking them to teach him how to fight was perfect touch for example. He should use them as much as he can, he should have a backup plan also. He doesn't have any guarantee that templars won't kill him if things go south or beneficial to them. An Elven plotline is perfect in that regard. A revenge could be a betrayal at the most crucial point or not helping though he could help etc. if revenge would serve MC's goals, it would be perfect if it's just a revenge then not so much. So I agree on not having revenge driven MC but I do want my revenge and redemption points for MC. All in all, I want MC have goals, an idea to the path he will follow then he should shape, even carve his path. When Templars thought they were using him, he should use them or Kaija thinks being smart with him, she should feel the knife in her back, same goes for his parents etc.

Shit I wrote a textwall.

 

[bacienvu88]

Full on revenge seem unlikely with the temperament of the MC. However I do think there is room for MC to become more and more disillusioned and distrustful, using more snark, sarcasm and cynisism. There is already a small precedent when he answer Eric with a "cheeky" response and Jess says it was the kind of reply she expected.

For example, when Eric complains about how bad elves are, MC could respond with something about the Templars. And when he meets the councilors and they basically tell him to shut up he could say something along the lines of "I'm brought here for the sole purpose of being a wall flower? What is even the point?". And if MC goes with Steroid-Kevin instead of Kaija she complains "Are you kidding me? You got attacked by a succubus and didn't find the time to tell us?". To me the natural response to that is "And you never found time to tell me about all this shit until now"

He never asks anyone why they wouldn't tell him about Neverwhere. Not Mom. Not Kaija. And not the councilors.

Then when MC asks Kaija "Do you love me" on her love route she responds with "yes, without restrictions". I would love if MC would actually test that. For example with "So if I asked you to quit the Templars you would?".

He doesn't have any guarantee that templars won't kill him if things go south or beneficial to them. An Elven plotline is perfect in that regard.

Some kind of Elven plotline is pretty much guaranteed since Medb (the Elven ambassador) is one of the Main LIs. Unless she defects without prior warning there must be more contact with the Elves.

All in all, I want MC have goals, an idea to the path he will follow then he should shape, even carve his path.

While I do agree that MC should have goals, it is pretty hard to have goals when you don't know anything. And your whole life has just been turned upside down. Not that he seemed to have any major goals before either. But hopefully this will come down the line.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Full on revenge seem unlikely with the temperament of the MC. However I do think there is room for MC to become more and more disillusioned and distrustful, using more snark, sarcasm and cynisism. There is already a small precedent when he answer Eric with a "cheeky" response and Jess says it was the kind of reply she expected.

For example, when Eric complains about how bad elves are, MC could respond with something about the Templars. And when he meets the councilors and they basically tell him to shut up he could say something along the lines of "I'm brought here for the sole purpose of being a wall flower? What is even the point?". And if MC goes with Steroid-Kevin instead of Kaija she complains "Are you kidding me? You got attacked by a succubus and didn't find the time to tell us?". To me the natural response to that is "And you never found time to tell me about all this shit until now"

He never asks anyone why they wouldn't tell him about Neverwhere. Not Mom. Not Kaija. And not the councilors.

Then when MC asks Kaija "Do you love me" on her love route she responds with "yes, without restrictions". I would love if MC would actually test that. For example with "So if I asked you to quit the Templars you would?".

Some kind of Elven plotline is pretty much guaranteed since Medb (the Elven ambassador) is one of the Main LIs. Unless she defects without prior warning there must be more contact with the Elves.

While I do agree that MC should have goals, it is pretty hard to have goals when you don't know anything. And your whole life has just been turned upside down. Not that he seemed to have any major goals before either. But hopefully this will come down the line.

We are more or less on the same page. A revenge driven MC won't be good and as you said cheeky comments from him is a must. Though, I still think a subplot to get revenge would be nice. Btw, that "do you love me" is one of the most cringiest thing I ever seen. She fucked him dry and he goes like "do ya lof meh", come on. Also, I can't wait to see more of Mebd, she looks intriguing. And also, what's the deal of that dancer girl? She is hiding very deep secrets I believe.

 

[bacienvu88]

We are more or less on the same page. A revenge driven MC won't be good and as you said cheeky comments from him is a must. Though, I still think a subplot to get revenge would be nice. Btw, that "do you love me" is one of the most cringiest thing I ever seen. She fucked him dry and he goes like "do ya lof meh", come on. Also, I can't wait to see more of Mebd, she looks intriguing. And also, what's the deal of that dancer girl? She is hiding very deep secrets I believe.

Fiona has spilled her background to some extent. She didn't reveal much about who her family is though. Considering her running speed she should have some sort of superhuman ability.

 

[schinoize]

Promising start, I'm intrigued.
Lots of things are still in the dark, so I'm looking forward to the next releases. Why did they want to capture MC? Does his sister have similar capabilities (that allow him to resist the succubi)? Will MC be able to distance himself from the templars/not join their cause? Right now he seems a bit too amiable given what happened.
Also good to see we will have another chance with Fiona for those of us who didn't flirt with everyone while still being in a relationship haha.

 

[Illuminati00]

We are more or less on the same page. A revenge driven MC won't be good and as you said cheeky comments from him is a must. Though, I still think a subplot to get revenge would be nice. Btw, that "do you love me" is one of the most cringiest thing I ever seen. She fucked him dry and he goes like "do ya lof meh", come on. Also, I can't wait to see more of Mebd, she looks intriguing. And also, what's the deal of that dancer girl? She is hiding very deep secrets I believe.

Precisely, revenge and revenge driven is not the same thing. A revenge subplot would make all the sense in the world.

Fiona has spilled her background to some extent. She didn't reveal much about who her family is though. Considering her running speed she should have some sort of superhuman ability.

I think the dev said that 3/4 LI's can currently beat us easily, so yeah, she has some power.

 

[Tulrek]

Fiona has spilled her background to some extent. She didn't reveal much about who her family is though. Considering her running speed she should have some sort of superhuman ability.

I wonder if

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[bacienvu88]

I wonder if

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Possibly?

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Btw, do we know how magic abilities is awakened? I.e. is it random or hereditary or the environment you grow up in?

 

[Illuminati00]

Possibly?

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Btw, do we know how magic abilities is awakened? I.e. is it random or hereditary or the environment you grow up in?

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Also do remind me, has he shown any magical powers yet?

 

[Tulrek]

Possibly?

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Btw, do we know how magic abilities is awakened? I.e. is it random or hereditary or the environment you grow up in?

I've though about that but

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[bacienvu88]

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I've though about that but

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Yeah, probably unlikely. I just didn't make a connection to the possibility before.

Also do remind me, has he shown any magical powers yet?

His resistance to the succubus is possibly related to his magical powers.

 

[Ceolag]

Hey guys,

This week's work has been mostly focused on the animations for the first lewd scene of Chapter 3.
Lewd renders and animations are the ones I have the least experience with.
Every single lewd render or animation (except pinups) I ever did is part of the game. Literally.
So these scenes are usually taking me a long time to set up, especially the animations, and the progress feels sooo slow.
Managing expectations before you get to the progress: Check.

The progress in hard numbers:
25 more static renders posed and rendered. That brings the total to 394.
Around 200 more lines in the script file for a total of a bit over 2300 lines.
And finally what took me so long, was 7 additional animations. The total for them is now 10. 3 of them are already rendered, the other 4 will keep the PC busy rendering for the weekend.

The next week will still be dedicated to lewd renders and animations since the scene comes with 2 variations, depending on your decisions.

No story reply is completely understandable, a question worth knowing the answer to however is if characters will keep loving you if you started a romance but then stopped. Will they stop loving you after you stop trying or will they keep love you and be sad when you reject them. Kaija for example will confess her love if you got enough stars, do you need to keep getting points up for this to continue in the story or will they still love you due to your previous actions?

Not sure if I understand the question correctly. Eventually, they will stop "loving" you when you ignore them completely.
Like all things in life, you need to actively work on a relationship to keep it intact.
They won't stop loving you just because you missed an option or two. Does that answer your question?

Btw, Ceolag I know you already planned out general story but do we have Elven path or any sort of revenge on Kaija and MC's family or Templars in general?

Sorry, I somehow forgot about that question. It's close to being a spoiler, so I'll just answer with "There's a reason for Medb being a LI." Everything else will definitely be spoilers.


That's it for now and as always: have a great weekend.

Cheers,
Ceolag

 

[tombeir]

[VN] [Ren'Py] The Neverwhere Tales [Book 1, Chapter 1-2, v0.2.0] [Ceolag] [MQ, MyRepack-YAC]

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