VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.4.0] [Ceolag]

[Joshy92]

I don't think I have looked at the points screen once
I just pick whatever option I would choose if I was the mc

 

[hysepReC]

I just pick whatever option I would choose if I was the mc

That's what I did and I ended up on the Kaija "friends" path.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

That's what I did and I ended up on the Kaija "friends" path.

Slap that ass was too tempting

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

I don't think I have looked at the points screen once
I just pick whatever option I would choose if I was the mc

That's the best way to play Joshy as I did the first couple of runs. I'm interested in the coding that's why I checked out how the points system works. I find it interesting when its a bit different.

 

[Dark Silence]

Ah, I must have missed that. That makes more sense but it's still not great. Katja and MC have been together for years. Whether she's in love with him shouldn't depend on the few actions you take during the game's short duration.

In a points based game, it does make sense. It's what most players get upset about with other devs. They say choices/points matter, but yet, if you literally have 0 points with a character, why is it we still fuck them later? Because those games, despite what the devs say, are literally just kinetic novels with choices that mean nothing in the game.

Ceolag has literally made an actual "Choices Matter" game. Which is why he has quickly become one of my favorite devs.

 

[jufot]

In a points based game, it does make sense. It's what most players get upset about with other devs. They say choices/points matter, but yet, if you literally have 0 points with a character, why is it we still fuck them later? Because those games, despite what the devs say, are literally just kinetic novels with choices that mean nothing in the game.

That's not what I meant. Having points determine how MC feels about her makes sense. That should 100% affect whether you stay with her or not. All I'm saying is that it shouldn't affect whether she is in love with him or if it was just an assignment. Because logically, she should know that prior to the game's events.

 

[Dark Silence]

That's not what I meant. Having points determine how MC feels about her makes sense. That should 100% affect whether you stay with her or not. All I'm saying is that it shouldn't affect whether she is in love with him or if it was just an assignment. Because logically, she should know that prior to the game's events.

For me, it does make sense. All the characters variables are in sync with the MC's variables in this game, which is what I want in an AVN. Basically, nothing is predetermined. In most other AVNs, everything is linear. Everyone loves the MC or his dick. Or both. No matter how you act towards them. This game, takes the player's choices into consideration. Which determines HOW the characters view the MC.

I don't really have the words to explain it any better than that. So, if it doesn't make any sense, it's because I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed.

 

[motseer]

I respect Ceolag's writing skills and the work he put into Kaija's path, but I can't agree she's a masterpiece. To me, she's borderline incoherent because she's two completely different personalities trying to occupy the same point in space-time. That makes it all but impossible to discuss her without carefully targeting our arguments and vetting any in-game evidence we wish to present. It's a dissertation-level effort which is made worse by the way the rest of the game doesn't seem to reflect the distinction, implying that Kaija's actual personality has a much larger impact on the audience than it does her own life. It probably doesn't make producing the game any easier, either.

In short, you always need to state your axioms when it comes to Kaija (there's a pronoun joke in here somewhere, but Kaija is already a contentious enough topic). I'd much rather the two disparate Kaijas had been fashioned into a single character who could satisfy key points of both aspects simultaneously. That way we could all draw our impressions of Kaija based on her actions, rather than the other way around.

Still, what's done is done and these are the Kaijas we got. I find 'loving girlfriend Kaija' the more interesting model, but I've come to terms with both and will try my best to respect the differences when discussing one of them. I would not, however, recommend using this approach for other characters in the future.

Well, yeah... but, no. I mean... for instance... "To me, she's borderline incoherent because she's two completely different personalities trying to occupy the same point in space-time." If you forget about the points and forget about being on "loving Kaija" or "bitchy Kaija" path and do what Joshy92 says, "I just pick whatever option I would choose if I was the mc", you can get a "hybrid Kaija"; in other words, a bitchy, know it all, sometimes loving, sometimes arch enemy "girlfriend Kaija". Dude, "To me, she's borderline incoherent because she's two completely different personalities trying to occupy the same point in space-time", is a perfect description of nearly every woman I ever met! Sooooooooo... again, "masterpiece" and I rest my case. Jus' Sayin'

 

[lorkdubo]

Well, yeah... but, no. I mean... for instance... "To me, she's borderline incoherent because she's two completely different personalities trying to occupy the same point in space-time." If you forget about the points and forget about being on "loving Kaija" or "bitchy Kaija" path and do what Joshy92 says, "I just pick whatever option I would choose if I was the mc", you can get a "hybrid Kaija"; in other words, a bitchy, know it all, sometimes loving, sometimes arch enemy "girlfriend Kaija". Dude, "To me, she's borderline incoherent because she's two completely different personalities trying to occupy the same point in space-time", is a perfect description of nearly every woman I ever met! Sooooooooo... again, "masterpiece" and I rest my case. Jus' Sayin'

She is a bit disjointed as the story stands with the points method tho. I don't believe you like or love someone when you get with someone, I do think time is paramount to developing closeness and love towards a person. Now, she is his best friend, childhood friend, and ultimately "fake lover" but... as it stands they spend too much time together to be fake as they already had a really close bond when they got together. The problem even if the points are low, he still is his best friend and childhood friend and someone who she sleeps with regularly which causes people to develop feelings.
To the Dev, there is an inconsistency in the dialogue at the bar about MC being single 6 months ago and that's the reason he was more frequent there when we know that he has been in a pretty long relationship since his 18 if I'm correct.

 

[Maviarab]

Ah, I must have missed that. That makes more sense but it's still not great. Katja and MC have been together for years. Whether she's in love with him shouldn't depend on the few actions you take during the game's short duration.

Maybe you should offer your game development and writing skills to the dev to improve it then.

 

[Dark Silence]

someone who she sleeps with regularly which causes people to develop feelings.

Not true. I had sex regularly with someone for almost 2 years and I never developed feelings for them. We were friends, sure. But other than that, no.

 

[ename144]

For me, it does make sense. All the characters variables are in sync with the MC's variables in this game, which is what I want in an AVN. Basically, nothing is predetermined. In most other AVNs, everything is linear. Everyone loves the MC or his dick. Or both. No matter how you act towards them. This game, takes the player's choices into consideration. Which determines HOW the characters view the MC.

I don't really have the words to explain it any better than that. So, if it doesn't make any sense, it's because I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed.

That's an interesting perspective on it, but I don't think I can agree. Sure, our inputs change things, but the way they change feels very artificial, as if Kaija were just parroting back what we expect to hear: "You didn't love me all this time? Well it was all an act and I never cared about you either, so there!" It's one thing for her attitude towards the MC to change based on our actions, it's another thing when her whole life philosophy hangs on our whim. I think it robs Kaija of the courage of her convictions when her goals are so malleable.

It's not like the game couldn't give weight to our choices while still having a common frame of reference for those choices. That's what I would prefer.

Well, yeah... but, no. I mean... for instance... "To me, she's borderline incoherent because she's two completely different personalities trying to occupy the same point in space-time." If you forget about the points and forget about being on "loving Kaija" or "bitchy Kaija" path and do what Joshy92 says, "I just pick whatever option I would choose if I was the mc", you can get a "hybrid Kaija"; in other words, a bitchy, know it all, sometimes loving, sometimes arch enemy "girlfriend Kaija". Dude, "To me, she's borderline incoherent because she's two completely different personalities trying to occupy the same point in space-time", is a perfect description of nearly every woman I ever met! Sooooooooo... again, "masterpiece" and I rest my case. Jus' Sayin'

Eh, in my experience women are no more confusing to me then men. You people are all a bit crazy.

 

[Dark Silence]

That's an interesting perspective on it, but I don't think I can agree. Sure, our inputs change things, but the way they change feels very artificial, as if Kaija were just parroting back what we expect to hear: "You didn't love me all this time? Well it was all an act and I never cared about you either, so there!" It's one thing for her attitude towards the MC to change based on our actions, it's another thing when her whole life philosophy hangs on our whim. I think it robs Kaija of the courage of her convictions when her goals are so malleable.

It's not like the game couldn't give weight to our choices while still having a common frame of reference for those choices. That's what I would prefer.

Well, I don't have the words to convince you to my way of thinking, nor would I try. I'm not a politician. lol I'm glad everyone has their own perspectives.

 

[motseer]

Eh, in my experience women are no more confusing to me then men. You people are all a bit crazy.

Oh, I'm not the least bit confused by either men or women. Like you said, "...people are all a bit crazy". It's almost as if, each and every one of them have, "...two completely different personalities trying to occupy the same point in space-time". What's not to understand?

 

[Maviarab]

Eh, in my experience women are no more confusing to me then men. You people are all a bit crazy.

Oh, I'm not the least bit confused by either men or women. Like you said, "...people are all a bit crazy". It's almost as if, each and every one of them have, "...two completely different personalities trying to occupy the same point in space-time". What's not to understand?

Women are from Venus though

As for personalities...my old dad always used to say that you should always love a woman for her peronality. She has like 17 of them...so you can pick your favourite

*runs away cackling*

 

[motseer]

Women are from Venus though

As for personalities...my old dad always used to say that you should always love a woman for her peronality. She has like 17 of them...so you can pick your favourite

*runs away cackling*

Yep. And you and I are the hellspawn of F95.

 

[Regularus]

The "you were just an assignement" characterisation could simply be a coping mechanism for her when she finally understand that the MC never loved her (in gameplay term the MC not having enough love points).

 

[e6mill]

It's almost as if, each and every one of them have, "...two completely different personalities trying to occupy the same point in space-time". What's not to understand?

You guys only get 2?

 

[motseer]

You guys only get 2?

Well... Mav says he got 17 but I think he's lyin'... Jus' Sayin'

 

[xapican]

Ok, I don't wanted to but in, anyway, I agree with DS (he bribed me with coffee ) I like to hear different views and think everyone should have their own opinion, so not trying to convice anyone here.
What I missed in ename144 s reasoning, or better I don't know if he took it in consideration

Sure, our inputs change things, but the way they change feels very artificial, as if Kaija were just parroting back what we expect to hear: "You didn't love me all this time? Well it was all an act and I never cared about you either, so there!" It's one thing for her attitude towards the MC to change based on our actions, it's another thing when her whole life philosophy hangs on our whim.

Is that the answers on both paths, are subject to her emotions, Kaija is pictured as a characterstrong woman, with high loyality and proud of it.
This alone would make her to answer with attitude, in both cases, she probably percive MC behaviour, as a bit selfish and ungratefull, "Heck, I care about his friendship and protect him, good thing that it helps me in my objective, (we still don't know what was her motivation to join the Hermetic Order of Knight Templars ) and he acts selfish and inmature, he don't cares for me and my feelings, here she percives an attack and reacts acording (Kaija friend path) there fore she has attitude in some cases, you see in the flashbacks that they hafe conflicts in the Relship.(flashback ch 2)
on the good path MC is much softer and open to speak about his feelings, opening so the path for her empathy, and she is able to see his point.
this is far more closer to real reactions in Life and sketches quite good real Relationship dynamics.