Ren'Py Abandoned The Red Room [v0.5b] [Alishia]

[TheLecher]

So whine about it on their patreon.

Or maybe I'll just say whatever I want to say, wherever I want to say it.

 

[armion82]

Did you not read the post two posts above yours? I guess I'll repeat myself.

You might be getting this game for free, but a lot of us aren't. We pay for it. And you're welcome. Because if we didn't pay for it, it wouldn't get developed, and then you wouldn't get it for "free".

And since some of us pay for the game to be developed, we might feel differently than you do about repeated delays and postponements.

Actually you don't pay for getting the game.Patreon is not a Kickstarter despite what many are thinking.

 

[TheLecher]

Actually you don't pay for getting the game.Patreon is not a Kickstarter despite what many are thinking.

I have gone over this many times already in this thread. Just read my previous posts on this topic, because I spell it out very clearly, and I'm not going to repeat myself again, having already repeated myself two or three times.

The short version is, if you actually understand the implied contract between patron and artist, then you understand that the patron is paying for the art.

 

[fried]

I have gone over this many times already in this thread. Just read my previous posts on this topic, because I spell it out very clearly, and I'm not going to repeat myself again, having already repeated myself two or three times.

The short version is, if you actually understand the implied contract between patron and artist, then you understand that the patron is paying for the art.

You must be registered to see the links

To become a creator simply launch your page to start your membership. Memberships are for your most passionate fans. You’re inviting them to be part of something exciting that gives them unique benefits they want, like additional access, merchandise, exclusivity, and engaging experiences. In exchange, patrons pay on a subscription basis.

Creators’ memberships vary and we have limited control over the quality and specific offerings.

Whatever the creator offers is what a patron supports - these are advertised by the creator before you sign up, either for a tier-driven benefit or something more open-ended on your part. They could offer three tiers of membership benefits up to $20/month and you might decide to offer $50/month - there is no "implied contract" which says the creator must offer some sort of proportionally greater amount of benefits to such a patron.

For Alishia's case, her Patreon account advertises "The Red Room" game and offers five predefined tier levels, each offering a different entitlement surrounding her work-in-progress views, latest news, previews and early access to releases, her gratitude and Discord access - all under one goal:

You must be registered to see the links

I want to improve the level of games on Patreon, qualitatively fulfilling desires of the players, creating a variety of characters and stories that are suitable for every taste. For that I need your support ~ Every bit of support will be a huge help and will be incredibly appreciated! All pledges will directly go to the increasing of speed and quality of updates. This will be possible by purchasing new equipment, hiring people, introducing new functions and by opportunity to devote all my time to development, so that eventually YOU could decide the fate of the game!

This creator is asking for help to improve her game-making productivity, essentially. Her wording doesn't say she would drop the game without patrons, just that they would help enable her more fully.

The best you can argue is that she will attempt to produce releases more often with patron support than without, as I see it.

I support other creators with different purposes and benefits, some of which have nothing to do with adult games; my expectations for how my support of a creator provides benefits for me is based upon each creator's unique set of terms and contexts offered.

 

[armion82]

I have gone over this many times already in this thread. Just read my previous posts on this topic, because I spell it out very clearly, and I'm not going to repeat myself again, having already repeated myself two or three times.

The short version is, if you actually understand the implied contract between patron and artist, then you understand that the patron is paying for the art.

Don't act like you are signing a contract with the dev,because you are not.
I will spell it one more time for you
This is not a kickstarter and you don't pay for getting a game.

You make an investment, so you expect a return on that investment. Even if it's not a game, it should be something.

That's the thing-you don't make an investment.
This is Patreon,not Kickstarter.If you want to make an investment use Kickstarter or Indiegogo.

 

[TheMagister]

Don't act like you are signing a contract with the dev,because you are not.
I will spell it one more time for you
This is not a kickstarter and you don't pay for getting a game.

You make an investment, so you expect a return on that investment. Even if it's not a game, it should be something.

 

[roverandom64]

I can agree with the concept of an investment, but can anyone get along?

 

[TheLecher]

You must be registered to see the links

Whatever the creator offers is what a patron supports - these are advertised by the creator before you sign up, either for a tier-driven benefit or something more open-ended on your part. They could offer three tiers of membership benefits up to $20/month and you might decide to offer $50/month - there is no "implied contract" which says the creator must offer some sort of proportionally greater amount of benefits to such a patron.

It's very obvious that, despite my pointing out that I've already covered this earlier in the thread, you didn't bother to read my previous posts on this topic. If you had, you would know that you're just repeating what others have already said here.

Yes, there is an implied contract. Your linking to Patreon's legal page is not relevant to that point. The foundation of patronage is exactly that implied contract. If the implied contract is violated, then it will often (perhaps usually) result in the end of the patronage.

In short, it doesn't matter whether or not Patreon refers to an implied contact. It exists in the nature of patronage itself, as it always has throughout history.

If you don't understand what I'm talking about when I say "implied contract", then just say so, and I'll explain. But you only make yourself look ignorant when you link to Patreon's legal page to refute an implied contract.

This creator is asking for help to improve her game-making productivity, essentially. Her wording doesn't say she would drop the game without patrons, just that they would help enable her more fully.

The best you can argue is that she will attempt to produce releases more often with patron support than without, as I see it.

No, that's not the best that I can argue. We've already seen one occasion when Alishia admitted that she needed the Patreon donations to continue. Perhaps we'll see another instance.

However, my comment wasn't restricted to Alishia's development of this game. I said that, without people providing financial support for the development of these games, a majority of the games posted on this forum would never be made. I think that I have a pretty sound argument for that, whether I can show it definitively or not.

Don't act like you are signing a contract with the dev,because you are not.
I will spell it one more time for you
This is not a kickstarter and you don't pay for getting a game.

I'll spell it out one more time for you

There is an implied contract. As I said to fried, if you don't know what "implied contract" means, then just ask. I never said anything about a legal document which anyone would have to sign. And yes, there absolutely is an implied contract between the developer and the patrons. For a more in depth explanation of what that contract is and what it entails, see my previous posts on this topic in this thread.

And I didn't say we're paying to get a game. I said we're paying for the development of the game. If you don't understand the distinction, then you shouldn't be trying to argue the point.

That's the thing-you don't make an investment.
This is Patreon,not Kickstarter.If you want to make an investment use Kickstarter or Indiegogo.

Yes, I absolutely have made an investment in the development of this game. It doesn't matter a damn whether this took place through Patreon or Kickstarter or SubscribeStar or Indiegogo or what-have-you.

You seem to be stuck in pedantic definitions of the terms "contract" and "investment". No one here has suggested that we're purchasing equity shares in the game, or that Red Room is a debt instrument (at least not that I've seen). That doesn't mean that we haven't invested.

 

[fried]

It's very obvious that, despite my pointing out that I've already covered this earlier in the thread, you didn't bother to read my previous posts on this topic. If you had, you would know that you're just repeating what others have already said here.

If you feel that strongly about it and that Alishia is not living up to her "implied contract," then feel free to take the issue up with Alishia. Otherwise, Patreon makes it rather clear, on numerous pages, that they offer a platform for creators to do a business and take in supporters under their own terms (as I quoted.)

I pointed to relevant passages on the Patreon site which lay out the terms between Patreon and creators, the terms for patrons to participate through the site and then the opportunity for creators to offer terms for support to patrons - hence, my quoting of Alishia's terms to her patrons.

You sound obsessive about this, as if you're trying to drive towards some sort of end goal.

 

[Filippa2000]

Guys like you put money into it thats you but I don't think we need lots of pages just spent on their feelings towards Alishia. She/he has described their situation and they said they'll do what they'll do what they'll do and if you're not happy with that you can write to her on discord which I think is an easier way to approach her comapared to this website. Also keep in mind that she/he seems to be some college/uni person and they still are young with studies so some sort of priority between studies and developing this game.



TL;DR Talk to her/him on discord and keep their situation in mind.

 

[hggg40]

Quand est la maj , j'adore ce jeu mais peu de contenu

 

[401Grem]

Support is completely voluntary, there is no contractual obligation expressed or implied.

 

[TheLecher]

If you feel that strongly about it and that Alishia is not living up to her "implied contract," then feel free to take the issue up with Alishia.

Anyone who has supported Alishia on Patreon (and many who have not) has access to her Discord, where she is more likely to see comments, since she no longer frequents this forum. If we want to take something up with her, chances are we already have done so. That doesn't change the fact that people can post what they like on the subject here in this thread.

You sound obsessive about this, as if you're trying to drive towards some sort of end goal.

This seems like an attempt to redirect the discussion away from the points which were being debated. But I'm curious, so I'll bite.

Obsessive about what? And what do you offer as an example of my "obsessiveness"?

Guys like you put money into it thats you but I don't think we need lots of pages just spent on their feelings towards Alishia.

You might not think that we should have pages of how people feel about it, but your opinion doesn't take away those people's freedom to express themselves. You don't have to participate, if you don't want to.

She/he has described their situation and they said they'll do what they'll do what they'll do and if you're not happy with that you can write to her on discord which I think is an easier way to approach her comapared to this website.

I, and many others on this thread, am already active on Alishia's Discord. As far as it being an easier way to approach her than this forum, that's definitely true, because she no longer comes to this forum. This is something which the people who use her discord already know.

Also keep in mind that she/he seems to be some college/uni person and they still are young with studies so some sort of priority between studies and developing this game.

She doesn't seem to be a university student. She is a university student, unless she's lied about that, which seems unlikely to me.

Support is completely voluntary, there is no contractual obligation expressed or implied.

Of course support is completely voluntary. No one ever suggested otherwise. But support being voluntary would in no way preclude the existence of a legally binding contract. However, that's not what's under discussion here. I've already been very clear about that, so you must either be trolling or you jumped into a conversation without reading even the posts on the previous page.

And yes, there is an implied contract. But no, an "implied contract" is not legally binding. As I've said to others, if you don't understand what is meant by "implied contract", you can find an explanation in my previous posts on this subject.

 

[armion82]

And yes, there is an implied contract. But no, an "implied contract" is not legally binding. As I've said to others, if you don't understand what is meant by "implied contract", you can find an explanation in my previous posts on this subject.

No idea why you decided that there is inplied contract between you and Alishia.
You are not in a restaurant and you didn't order a food.

We're on a patron and we ordered a game (update). How's that for a metaphor?

No first we are not on patron/It is high time people to learn what is patron and Patreon/ and second this not a Steam to order a game.Not even a kickstarter to give money to the creator and waiting for the game.

 

[TheMagister]

No idea why you decided that there is inplied contract between you and Alishia.
You are not in a restaurant and you didn't order a food.

We're on a patron and we ordered a game (update). How's that for a metaphor?

 

[lnppo]

The salt in this thread is next level.
People act like devs that lie and bullshit to milk their Patrons for all they're worth aren't dime a dozen, Alishia is just one more on a nigh infinite list and no one should be surprised.

 

[roverandom64]

 

[401Grem]

We're on a patron and we ordered a game (update). How's that for a metaphor?

You're supporting a dev, not buying a game

 

[TheLecher]

No idea why you decided that there is inplied contract between you and Alishia.

I didn't decide that there's an implied contract. The implied contract between patrons and artists has existed since the beginning of patronage.

As for you having no idea why, that's very obvious. But if you would have read my previous posts on this topic in this thread, then you would have an idea why. I've pointed this out multiple times now in the past two pages, and still you insist on not doing any homework.

If you want to be lazy, that's up to you. But don't expect me to take any of your arguments seriously if you can't be bothered to learn what my words mean, even after being informed that you don't understand what I'm saying.

You are not in a restaurant and you didn't order a food.

And you're not a teapot, and this forum isn't a submarine, and I didn't assassinate JFK.

 

[fried]

Anyone who has supported Alishia on Patreon (and many who have not) has access to her Discord, where she is more likely to see comments, since she no longer frequents this forum. If we want to take something up with her, chances are we already have done so. That doesn't change the fact that people can post what they like on the subject here in this thread.

So, why do care about proving the type of agreement Patreon-hosted creators manifest with their patrons, specifically with respect to Alishia? You seem to be offering that it's a dead end for people to discuss it here.

At least you agree that people can discuss their patronage concerns with her directly, implied contract or not.

This seems like an attempt to redirect the discussion away from the points which were being debated. But I'm curious, so I'll bite.

Not misdirection at all and I made the context of my question purposefully open: I am not persuaded by your arguments concerning the type of "contract" here and have shown why that is the case , yet you persist with your assertions - and, not just with me. As if you need to prove ... something.

Therefore, I am guessing you must have a goal in mind - something supported by your assertions. You're not just arguing about theory, I figure. Perhaps an end-justifies-the-means approach. But, what that goal might be, I am not sure.