VN Ren'Py Completed Three kingdoms story: Conussia [v2024-04-26] [Kamti Games Studios]

1.80 star(s) 12 Votes

necronovelist

Newbie
Aug 12, 2017
38
44
Hello friend.

As I mentioned before. Game was develped without community.
Idea is to avoid copying not finished games.
So, now game is finished. I was able to create it and I am able to improve it. Trust me!
I just need a bit of support. Give your suggestions what to improve exactly and it will be considered.
I think the goal of finishing the game is noble but also demonstrates the need for versions and feedback. I get what you were going for, in theory it's good, in practice it has been demonstrated not to work.

The reason it doesn't work is that the issues are now fundamental to the game and its code, which would have been avoided with at least a demo, I think. I'm no expert, this is just the opinion of someone who's played many games and is slowly working to develop their own.

Let me go over some of the issues just from the beginning.
1. Main Menu

Positives: Customizing the standard build menu is good, and I like the border and font. I love how you directly credit each contributor in the About game/help and I think that should be done more often.

Negatives: * No return to main menu button. You can still press esc to close out of a menu but it's a bit confusing.
* "About game" and "Help" lead to the same screen which is redundant.
* The standard build's Help menu is necessary for completely new players.
* The credit to Ren'Py is removed, and I believe that's the only legal requirement for using Ren'Py? You're supposed to credit the developers of the engines and link to their stuff. It's probably not enforced but it seems in poor taste.
* In the settings, you've disabled Rollback (understandably) but left the option and kept the Voice volume. Both are redundant.

2. Opening
* Starting in the middle of the action is fine, and even intriguing, but the game does nothing to establish what's going on or what you're meant to do. The decision to immediately visit the prison in a castle you've never been to is bizarre and never adequately explained.
* The name Hero is so generic. Even games where it's pointless let you name the main character, Ren'Py is built to allow it, and this is an RPG-style game where it kind of matters.
* Just as a basic experience, the game is not built in a way that adequately forms a narrative. For a specific example, the first four options you see are "(NPC) Carpenter/(NPC) Guard), To hall, Sleep in the cell."

Dropped into this scenario, the player will most likely choose the first option "(NPC) Carpenter", right? But within the narrative of the game, the Guard should be standing between you and the Carpenter. So by making the first option the most likely, you're having the player walk right past the guard and talk to the Carpenter. The Guard even explains who the Carpenter is. It's a basic failure of player choice prediction.

Even if you can't control what a player chooses to do, you could at least make it more likely a player will make a choice that creates the most coherent narrative to a game. The simple act of placing the option to talk to the Guard first leads into this. Or, better yet, hiding the Carpenter action until you've spoken to the Guard and gotten permission to pass.

You don't need to have a strictly linear narrative, but you need to consider designs decisions like this or else players will just be left confused and dissatisfied, as they seem to be from this thread. This is a specific instance, maybe seemingly trivial, but it represents the larger pattern.

3. Dialogue/Interactions with NPCs
* Putting NPC before every name may be some kind of translation issue, but it's silly considered every character but you in an NPC.
* Some characters have names in the choice menu before we learn their names, and you can immediately ask about other characters it specifically says you've never met, and because you're (presumably, if he tells the truth) a stranger travelling from a distant land, you wouldn't know any of them by reputation.
* Another issue is giving the player options that lead to nowhere while not providing any sort of direction. Once you click on the option to talk to the Carpenter, the first option is "discuss situation." Not knowing what else to do, a player is likely to click that. And they're met with no, nothing to do here. Then there's an option to craft scrolls, without an explanation of what scrolls do or how many gems would be needed. You can't even click the descriptions of the material in this menu, only in the Inventory. Then the Activities button leads you to nothing. And then discuss others leads you to Priest Dall, who neither the player nor the character should know, and both discussions lead to nothing.

This is an entire set of interactions that lead to nowhere, set up as the first option in the game. Of course players feel lost and frustrated.
* When you choose to speak with the Guard, and choose the first option Discuss situation, he immediately counts your money. Why? Not in the trade menu, in the Discussion of the situation. And your money is not listed in your Inventory or the trade menu choice. The trade menu also lists items to buy, and doesn't actually describe them until you exit those options or buy the item. Also if the passage is secret, why is it immediately visit to the character?
* It's not until the conversation with the princess, which is the third option to talk to in the hall (the second location, unless you go to the Catacombs or the secret passage, both alluring possibilities), that you get your character's actual name and some context. It not only makes no sense to start in the prison, it takes you away from the most helpful conversation for a starting player.

4. Misc.
* The description of the amulets for the catacombs doesn't make it clear they're temporary, it allows you to buy multiple but they don't seem to stack (causing you to waste money), they don't appear in your Inventory, and there's no warning when it runs out.
* No stats or equipment screen. I only realized there were stats when I used the int scroll. It wasn't even clear what stat changed. Stats are something you want to track. You should be able to read them easily and identify how they change and why. You can do an Inventory screen, stats and equipment should be doable.
* The passage of time is also unclear. I'll do a bunch of actions and no time passes, and then do two actions and then the time of day passages, preventing me from doing what I was planning to do. There's no clear way for me to check the time of day beyond checking who is available to talk to.
* You can apparently only exit to the general map at night. It's not clear narratively why, compounded by the passage of time issue.
* The maze situation was kind of miserable and not very fun.
* Unable to track the time of day, my stats, or anything, I have no idea why I spoke to a character and reached a game over. Is there a time limit? Did a certain stat get too high or too low? The reasons for game overs need to be clear so they can be avoided.

These are just some of the immediate issues, almost a fascinating amount of them. I could go on and on breaking down the issues with this game, but they seem too fundamental to me at this point. The player needs to be guided directly and indirectly in some way through the game, they need to be able to access information that's relevant for planning actions, and the narrative needs to not constantly contradict itself due to the information the character and player are presented with. I wouldn't be willing to spend as much time as needed breaking down this game unless I were somehow a paid consultant or part of the team making it. That may seem greedy, but requesting some community participation for a promising game is one thing, requesting free labor from a community that you'll profit from for such a flawed game is another.

I really do hope you're able to salvage this because it really does have some interesting bits buried under baffling decisions.
 

kamti

Member
Game Developer
Oct 4, 2018
269
316
Well, while you claim that there are lots of arts in the game, I looked through the assets and don't feel the same. Which means there are not enough arts for me personally (still I dare to say I'm not alone here)

Also, I see your game for the first time and not really interested in discussing whether I should've supported you before or not. If you have much more assets - this is great. But, seeing how you're so sure that the number of arts is more than sufficient, I am in doubt - do you Really have 'a lot of art'
Thanks for a feedback and accept my regret that I was not able to meet your expectation.
I am sure this forum has lots of good games, which you'll find to be better.

Best regards.
 
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kamti

Member
Game Developer
Oct 4, 2018
269
316
I think the goal of finishing the game is noble but also demonstrates the need for versions and feedback. I get what you were going for, in theory it's good, in practice it has been demonstrated not to work.

The reason it doesn't work is that the issues are now fundamental to the game and its code, which would have been avoided with at least a demo, I think. I'm no expert, this is just the opinion of someone who's played many games and is slowly working to develop their own.

Let me go over some of the issues just from the beginning.
1. Main Menu

Positives: Customizing the standard build menu is good, and I like the border and font. I love how you directly credit each contributor in the About game/help and I think that should be done more often.

Negatives: * No return to main menu button. You can still press esc to close out of a menu but it's a bit confusing.
* "About game" and "Help" lead to the same screen which is redundant.
* The standard build's Help menu is necessary for completely new players.
* The credit to Ren'Py is removed, and I believe that's the only legal requirement for using Ren'Py? You're supposed to credit the developers of the engines and link to their stuff. It's probably not enforced but it seems in poor taste.
* In the settings, you've disabled Rollback (understandably) but left the option and kept the Voice volume. Both are redundant.

2. Opening
* Starting in the middle of the action is fine, and even intriguing, but the game does nothing to establish what's going on or what you're meant to do. The decision to immediately visit the prison in a castle you've never been to is bizarre and never adequately explained.
* The name Hero is so generic. Even games where it's pointless let you name the main character, Ren'Py is built to allow it, and this is an RPG-style game where it kind of matters.
* Just as a basic experience, the game is not built in a way that adequately forms a narrative. For a specific example, the first four options you see are "(NPC) Carpenter/(NPC) Guard), To hall, Sleep in the cell."

Dropped into this scenario, the player will most likely choose the first option "(NPC) Carpenter", right? But within the narrative of the game, the Guard should be standing between you and the Carpenter. So by making the first option the most likely, you're having the player walk right past the guard and talk to the Carpenter. The Guard even explains who the Carpenter is. It's a basic failure of player choice prediction.

Even if you can't control what a player chooses to do, you could at least make it more likely a player will make a choice that creates the most coherent narrative to a game. The simple act of placing the option to talk to the Guard first leads into this. Or, better yet, hiding the Carpenter action until you've spoken to the Guard and gotten permission to pass.

You don't need to have a strictly linear narrative, but you need to consider designs decisions like this or else players will just be left confused and dissatisfied, as they seem to be from this thread. This is a specific instance, maybe seemingly trivial, but it represents the larger pattern.

3. Dialogue/Interactions with NPCs
* Putting NPC before every name may be some kind of translation issue, but it's silly considered every character but you in an NPC.
* Some characters have names in the choice menu before we learn their names, and you can immediately ask about other characters it specifically says you've never met, and because you're (presumably, if he tells the truth) a stranger travelling from a distant land, you wouldn't know any of them by reputation.
* Another issue is giving the player options that lead to nowhere while not providing any sort of direction. Once you click on the option to talk to the Carpenter, the first option is "discuss situation." Not knowing what else to do, a player is likely to click that. And they're met with no, nothing to do here. Then there's an option to craft scrolls, without an explanation of what scrolls do or how many gems would be needed. You can't even click the descriptions of the material in this menu, only in the Inventory. Then the Activities button leads you to nothing. And then discuss others leads you to Priest Dall, who neither the player nor the character should know, and both discussions lead to nothing.

This is an entire set of interactions that lead to nowhere, set up as the first option in the game. Of course players feel lost and frustrated.
* When you choose to speak with the Guard, and choose the first option Discuss situation, he immediately counts your money. Why? Not in the trade menu, in the Discussion of the situation. And your money is not listed in your Inventory or the trade menu choice. The trade menu also lists items to buy, and doesn't actually describe them until you exit those options or buy the item. Also if the passage is secret, why is it immediately visit to the character?
* It's not until the conversation with the princess, which is the third option to talk to in the hall (the second location, unless you go to the Catacombs or the secret passage, both alluring possibilities), that you get your character's actual name and some context. It not only makes no sense to start in the prison, it takes you away from the most helpful conversation for a starting player.

4. Misc.
* The description of the amulets for the catacombs doesn't make it clear they're temporary, it allows you to buy multiple but they don't seem to stack (causing you to waste money), they don't appear in your Inventory, and there's no warning when it runs out.
* No stats or equipment screen. I only realized there were stats when I used the int scroll. It wasn't even clear what stat changed. Stats are something you want to track. You should be able to read them easily and identify how they change and why. You can do an Inventory screen, stats and equipment should be doable.
* The passage of time is also unclear. I'll do a bunch of actions and no time passes, and then do two actions and then the time of day passages, preventing me from doing what I was planning to do. There's no clear way for me to check the time of day beyond checking who is available to talk to.
* You can apparently only exit to the general map at night. It's not clear narratively why, compounded by the passage of time issue.
* The maze situation was kind of miserable and not very fun.
* Unable to track the time of day, my stats, or anything, I have no idea why I spoke to a character and reached a game over. Is there a time limit? Did a certain stat get too high or too low? The reasons for game overs need to be clear so they can be avoided.

These are just some of the immediate issues, almost a fascinating amount of them. I could go on and on breaking down the issues with this game, but they seem too fundamental to me at this point. The player needs to be guided directly and indirectly in some way through the game, they need to be able to access information that's relevant for planning actions, and the narrative needs to not constantly contradict itself due to the information the character and player are presented with. I wouldn't be willing to spend as much time as needed breaking down this game unless I were somehow a paid consultant or part of the team making it. That may seem greedy, but requesting some community participation for a promising game is one thing, requesting free labor from a community that you'll profit from for such a flawed game is another.

I really do hope you're able to salvage this because it really does have some interesting bits buried under baffling decisions.
Conclusive and convincing. I will work. Thanks.
 
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babes313

Newbie
Oct 21, 2017
63
111
So I have tried mapping the catacombs.... but they seem to defy reality (you can go west, but then cant return to east for example).

I have found the entrance to the level 2, from the start go:
W S S S(Here is gold mine) W W W W N (Here is entrance to level 2)

I have had to use google translate as some of the directions are in Russian still.
For the non Russians amongst us:
на запад - To west
на север - To North
Вход на уровень 1 - Entrance to level 1
Lol I tried to map catacombs as well, my result is

buy 100g amulet - enter catacomb - W N W W S W W S S - into lv2
onto lv 2 - S E - drink to restore SAN - S E - hellow skullface

Trying to have fun with crafting scrolls too, it will be good if the scrolls can be sorted into numerical instead of sorted by the order when its crafted. Some/maybe half of the scrolls have missing description, and not showing what it does even after usage, kinda annoying given it takes time to mine up gems.

Another bug that I exploited is - washing the floor on tavern that I can spam even after night and the day still not changed, I'd say leave this bug as 1 of easter egg for easy money lel.

Overall I still have no idea how to access the porn (aside of peeping tom images), maybe tomorrow I'll check more onto it as I spent my time to save and load on mapping to find lich.
 
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Burr

Newbie
Apr 11, 2018
32
28
Thanks for a feedback and accept my regret that I was not able to meet your expectation.
I am sure this forum has lots of good games, which you'll find to be better.

Best regards.
You shouldn't be defensive. I didn't mean to offend you or the game. The art is brilliant, just make more. The game really needs more sex scenes. You also got plenty of feedback on mechanics.
 
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TimBdk

Newbie
Sep 8, 2019
19
33
Burr, give the guy some slack. It's a lot of work to create good art. This guy has worked on this for a long time, just let him do his thing. In comparison with a lot of other projects it's reasonably complete.

Priorities I see as a casual player:
- Fix any crashes
- Replace the Russian text. (also in the background map when you go hunting for corpses with the tavern guy)
- Improve the English text a bit. (adding "the" and "a" where it's missing)
- Allow players to leave the castle in de morning. (go to map is missing)
- Rework the story a bit to make it more clear you need to go into the catacombs to find the Lich. (maybe tell the player the general direction, afer the player made its first attempt and failed)
- Explain the mechanics of the spells as clearly as possible and not let the player progress unless they used them twice in different step by step quests. Only then allow the player the freedom to create new spells with the Carpenter.
- Start the game with some perverted sexual stuff, just to let the player know what they are playing. (like have the assassination/kidnapping play out with some art where the Princess is not just gagged with some cloth.)
 
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kamti

Member
Game Developer
Oct 4, 2018
269
316
Another bug that I exploited is - washing the floor on tavern that I can spam even after night and the day still not changed, I'd say leave this bug as 1 of easter egg for easy money lel.
Thanks for info, babes313.
I have to fix floor's washing immediately, as it makes easy game even easier)))
:D
 
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babes313

Newbie
Oct 21, 2017
63
111
I'll throw in some good words/reasoning here, based on my own view


- Fix any crashes
- Replace the Russian text. (also in the background map when you go hunting for corpses with the tavern guy)
- Improve the English text a bit. (adding "the" and "a" where it's missing)
>He's doing it now give him some time.......don't let this game be abandoned.

- Allow players to leave the castle in de morning. (go to map is missing)
>Progressing with priest will fix that.

- Rework the story a bit to make it more clear you need to go into the catacombs to find the Lich. (maybe tell the player the general direction, afer the player made its first attempt and failed)
>Game supposed to have you exploring and mapping it yourself I guess......don't be lazy or just go play those 3D models renpy games that you can skip all the way and reached easy ending without actual reading.

- Explain the mechanics of the spells as clearly as possible and not let the player progress unless they used them twice in different step by step quests. Only then allow the player the freedom to create new spells with the Carpenter.
>What is the logic behind knowing the scrolls usage when you are not supposed to know it existed?? Finding what the scroll about also add more on the fun.

- Start the game with some perverted sexual stuff, just to let the player know what they are playing. (like have the assassination/kidnapping play out with some art where the Princess is not just gagged with some cloth.)
>Personally I would drop the game after 5 mins if this happen......those good art feels worth more if I able to get it after some ingame struggles

My 2 cents, feel free to say otherwise. I'd casually wait for the game to have more stuffs to find.
 
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babes313

Newbie
Oct 21, 2017
63
111
Thanks for info, babes313.
I have to fix floor's washing immediately, as it makes easy game even easier)))
:D
Noooo don't fix that lol. Otherwise I'd complaint on the bug that guarding duty seems to not yield 30 gold. I counted it but my money from guard duty looks too low againts the number of times I did it, so I though this is intended as usually people will choose guard duty while the better option is to wash the floor.

More onto it, lich said that money from delivering corpse is varied based on the corpse condition, but 1 or 2 corpses always gives me the same 100 gold, meaning its fixed price. And the day is changed to evening (I divided the day into 3 phase, day/evening/night) after I delivered it, meaning my character sleep after his night corpse duty??
 

kamti

Member
Game Developer
Oct 4, 2018
269
316
I'll throw in some good words/reasoning here, based on my own view


- Fix any crashes
- Replace the Russian text. (also in the background map when you go hunting for corpses with the tavern guy)
- Improve the English text a bit. (adding "the" and "a" where it's missing)
>He's doing it now give him some time.......don't let this game be abandoned.

- Allow players to leave the castle in de morning. (go to map is missing)
>Progressing with priest will fix that.

- Rework the story a bit to make it more clear you need to go into the catacombs to find the Lich. (maybe tell the player the general direction, afer the player made its first attempt and failed)
>Game supposed to have you exploring and mapping it yourself I guess......don't be lazy or just go play those 3D models renpy games that you can skip all the way and reached easy ending without actual reading.

- Explain the mechanics of the spells as clearly as possible and not let the player progress unless they used them twice in different step by step quests. Only then allow the player the freedom to create new spells with the Carpenter.
>What is the logic behind knowing the scrolls usage when you are not supposed to know it existed?? Finding what the scroll about also add more on the fun.

- Start the game with some perverted sexual stuff, just to let the player know what they are playing. (like have the assassination/kidnapping play out with some art where the Princess is not just gagged with some cloth.)
>Personally I would drop the game after 5 mins if this happen......those good art feels worth more if I able to get it after some ingame struggles

My 2 cents, feel free to say otherwise. I'd casually wait for the game to have more stuffs to find.
Dear babes313,

thanks for kind words.

I will consider information in your post tomorrow, with fresh head.
Just one notice now: you are able to go out to the map at any part of the day. You just have to show progress with investigation for the priest. He'll grant you access.
 

kamti

Member
Game Developer
Oct 4, 2018
269
316
Noooo don't fix that lol. Otherwise I'd complaint on the bug that guarding duty seems to not yield 30 gold. I counted it but my money from guard duty looks too low againts the number of times I did it, so I though this is intended as usually people will choose guard duty while the better option is to wash the floor.

More onto it, lich said that money from delivering corpse is varied based on the corpse condition, but 1 or 2 corpses always gives me the same 100 gold, meaning its fixed price. And the day is changed to evening (I divided the day into 3 phase, day/evening/night) after I delivered it, meaning my character sleep after his night corpse duty??
I'll check tomorrow. It's just too much for today. For sure there is or will be an option to earn money.
 

kamti

Member
Game Developer
Oct 4, 2018
269
316
Thank you, guys. I am a bit closer to reality. Seems I was somewhere in the Heaven.
 

Svoben

Newbie
Sep 19, 2017
58
142
Promising art, interesting story, lots of potential here, but as necronovelist pointed out there are some significant gameplay issues.

The biggest ones to me (besides the incomplete translations you're already working on):

  • Start the game in the main hall, not the prison. The main hall is where you talk to people who give you all the background info about what's going on and where you are, and some starting-out quests; until you've talked to them, you really have no idea what's going on. I'm no coder but this seems like an easy thing to fix.
  • The mapping of the dungeon would be a lot less frustrating if there were more feedback given to the player. Every "empty" square in the dungeon is identical. The map can even teleport you, apparently? But how the heck are we supposed to figure that out without reading this thread or a lot of frustrating trial and error? Even just saying "you feel dizzy" or something, after the players moves over a part of the catacombs that teleports you, would be a clue. You could also add some minor details even to the "empty" parts of the catacombs; maybe dripping water, or bad smells, scurrying rats, piles of broken bones, or whatever. If you can whip up a little more art, adding a few more different dungeon backgrounds would help too. Stuff like that would go a long way to make exploring the dungeon feel more like exploring an actual dungeon, and less like the player is just trying to brute-force our way to pressing the correct combination of buttons, "up up down left up down right" or whatever, until we get to the correct answer.
  • Any game in which I have money, and I also have an inventory screen, the inventory screen should always tell me how much money I have.
  • A questlog or journal of some kind wouldn't hurt either. Doesn't have to hold the player's hand and tell them what to do, but some basic keeping track of "which person wants what, and what have I already done for which people" would help. Keep in mind a game like this ought to be something I can take a break from and go eat dinner, watch a movie, whatever, and then come back to and pick up where I left off.
 

sirseatbelt

Newbie
Jul 9, 2019
22
30
I like games with solid 2D art. There is not enough of it. I'll keep an eye on this. Seems like OP got some really good feedback. I think the particularly "harsh" post was actually really valuable. Sometimes criticism feels bad man, even when it's important. I honestly think that was the most important post in the whole thread. I think if OP can implement some of that feedback to restructure their title they'lll have a great game.

I do agree with another sentiment that an early lewd scene is important. Pacing the naughty content is important and I hate going 45 minutes-an hour before the first lewd art shows up. Like someone else said it shouldn't be 'easy' to get but there should be a fairly steady flow depending on how you want to structure your title.

I'm excited to check back in a few revisions to see how this game progresses from playable alpha to polished title.


P.S.

There is no such thing as enough art! :D
 

kamti

Member
Game Developer
Oct 4, 2018
269
316
Next days there will be an update. I cannot say "I work", it would be more correct to say "We work".
Patience, patience, patience.
 
1.80 star(s) 12 Votes