- Jun 11, 2017
- 2,905
- 3,744
- Thread starter 7767
- Start date
- Nov 1, 2017
- 1,406
- 2,317
I don't need a book chapter in reply , especially since I have 19 years in programming experience, so I do know what goes into making a game, a very much do. Am not someone talking out my ass with no knowledge, I actually know what am talking about.Signature wall of text incoming
I have to respectfully disagree with your comments on substantiality of the content, you don't seem to understand how much work it actually takes to make content like this, specifically for our game. There is a reason why the game graphics stands out a lot compared to others, its not because of different tooling only but because of all the extra work put into every single frame, each character in the game, the positions, sets, it's important to differentiate me, as a coder and Motkeyz as the artist. I am mostly the vocal person when it comes to f95 , explaining how things are and how my progress as programming goes, I can't always speak for Motkeyz, but both him and me are in similar situations and understand each other. I have many times explained that it is a tremendous amount of work that goes into a game like this and how much we both dedicate into developing the game. We work in two different worlds, he can show teasers and plan out scenes, I can't really do much than explain what kind of improvements that I make, because people have reported issues or requested features previously. Also I don't want to spoil the next update, so Motkeyz releases things as he see fit during the development cycle.
I have been a fan of many games here for over a year and followed their development, there are many games out there that barely does anything in months, they release every 1-2 months and add a few bug fixes, minimal adjustments, we don't work like that. We wholeheartedly sit and work on this project, and we have experience and skill too, it's not just spent trying to "figure things out" but we actually sit and do a tremendous amount of work.
You may think that the last release was little to you and I am sad that you think that, because we worked extremely hard for that, working more than full time on the project while working full time on our dayjobs, pretty much every day was work, work, sleep work work, sleep, no free time. And people don't understand this but its not only down to how much time you spend on a game,
People need a work-life balance to have a good creative output, and working two full time jobs that are on high levels is not what qualifies as peace of mind, you constantly have to juggle being a manager in the day. Motkeyz has been juggling like this for over a year, and I have been juggling like this since February, there is only a certain amount of time you can do this before shit really hits the fan. We're starting to reach that point for the last few months.
If I come home from a really hectic day of work, or a few days business trip with a drained brain, I won't be able to just come home, sit down and come up with the best possible solution to my current problem, or development, this goes for pretty much every person out there.
I recognize that a lot of creators live in low-income countries without a job or in a really poor job situation, and for them this is easy to transition to, even if their quality is shit or their support is low, in relative to where they live they can manage. They don't pay taxes, they don't care as long as they get paid.
We could never have done this project without pushing in our hard earned money into it, money from our day jobs, we could never continue this project right now without working our day jobs.
As the story and choices branch out more and more the content gets split up more and more between the paths. Last release was the biggest of the last few so far in terms of content, both in dialogue and in renders, and in things to do.
We already have it planned to split up the game in chapters, and this is the first chapter you are playing right now but calling each release differently, and working a little bit longer is not going to make any difference that you would notice.
Look at those patch notes and name me any game with a team of two that pull something like that off because I would like to see it for myself.
It's simple really, the game as we have today wouldn't be possible if it wasn't for motkeyz style of art, his ideas and the way we work together, our combined efforts, the hard earned money we put into it, the expertise and experience we have, the passion for the project, our dedication, our sacrifices.
The support we get so far means a tremendous amount to us, and we have a lot of dedicated fans, and a wonderful discord community, as well as wonderful people here on f95.
There's only two realistic ways this is going to go, and both of them are a possibility.
1. We get the option to work on this full time, and the quality will go up even more, we can keep our sanity and health.
2. We're going to just work on the project out of passion for as long a we have the energy to do so, and have to lower the pace substantially from what it is today, meaning that we can't really commit much time.
This game is not going to get abandoned, if people love this game so much and want to see frequent quality updates, talk about it, share it, support it with whatever you can, if you cant support us financially, that's fine, exposure and word of mouth is really important to us, spread the word, even a thing like using a signature, recommending it to others, making a review of the game, talk to any youtubers or bloggers that you know to review the game and potentially recommend it if they like it!
We listen to all of you, we read all your posts and feedback. We are here and on discord.
We can't do this alone, we need you guys, our fans.
Much love
/A
Based on my programming experience and playing others games myself, i was trying to help you out. There is no need to get so darn defensive anytime you get a negative comment, the simple fact is the last update was poor, there wasn't enough new content shown. I can use my programming experience and understand that you's tidied up the coding to make it easier on yourselves in future, I get that takes times but others don't.
I get the whole working full time and trying to develop game as well, I just finished a game I been working on for over 4 years myself.
- Aug 12, 2017
- 3,911
- 3,382
The whole post wasn't targeted at you, it was it's a reoccurring topic on pretty much any game thread, that there is too little, just explaining how things go.
I have to ask what programming experience? Playing games give you no insight on how the development process works, i get that fans can compare games in how much they release each time, but you have to also take in account a lot of factors in release speed, such as quality first of all, and how many other things the artist has to do.
How was the release poor... compared to what?
Sorry just trying to establish what kind of credibility you have because I'm living in the project, I don't lie to to fans or supporters, i have no reason to as honesty is really important.
Enough new content? The only thing we recycled was the shower scene, the rest is actually more renders than any previous release. Maybe you didn't see what all the choices bring but with what you are saying, I can't take anything you say seriously.
What game is it? This one? It says 4 years, "Copyright © MR BizWeb LTD 2014-2018"?
You must be registered to see the links
- Nov 1, 2017
- 1,406
- 2,317
I said 19 year programming experience, not making game experience and yes game I referred to is wrestlestarz, which I don't wish to promote in your thread. Also FYI that website may only be going 4 years but business being around since 2011 and I been self employed since 2006.
I recognise you put a lot of work into game, but I am just trying to help by given you a honest answer on why your patreon count dropped, which I still say is most likely due to patreon itself, rather than anything you did.
Also I already answered what was wrong with the update in my original post, it was to small and not enough content, which to be honest is a common theme in a lot of games that release monthly updates, which is why I advised releasing updates every 2 months, as I seen other games doing that and being very successful.
Summertime Saga was brought up, part of reason why that does so well is, there new updates always have a lot of new content, because they generally wait 2 months. My favourite game is school, love, friends and a lot of that is to do with the level of content in game and new content with each update, granted developer has been changing game over to new platform for most of 2018, but even then, he is delaying release to make sure he has a lot of new content.
Also it just makes sense, if content released in monthly updates is to small, then 2 months is most likely going be about right.
Your game has good content, the graphics are awesome in game, most likely best around but people want content in new updates, last update didn't have a lot of new content, I personally understand why due to the comments from yous in this thread. That reason is why am still watching this game thread, others don't see or understand what tidying code up and other stuff you said, so that could potentially be part of reason for your drop.
end of day, just trying to openly be honest with yous on a forum, not to ditch or to put down the work that yous have done, but to actually help because I do think this game has strong potential.
I would also add, and this is my own personal thing, but I also didn't like that there was no follow up to Bacon and MC not helping Heather against Scut and jeez, I forget her name. Basically Scut got his ass kicked and that was it, was disappointing, however that is just a personal dislike thing.
I really do not have anything more to add this, if you still take offence, then I understand why you would but what I say is true and I just posted with attention to help.
I recognise you put a lot of work into game, but I am just trying to help by given you a honest answer on why your patreon count dropped, which I still say is most likely due to patreon itself, rather than anything you did.
Also I already answered what was wrong with the update in my original post, it was to small and not enough content, which to be honest is a common theme in a lot of games that release monthly updates, which is why I advised releasing updates every 2 months, as I seen other games doing that and being very successful.
Summertime Saga was brought up, part of reason why that does so well is, there new updates always have a lot of new content, because they generally wait 2 months. My favourite game is school, love, friends and a lot of that is to do with the level of content in game and new content with each update, granted developer has been changing game over to new platform for most of 2018, but even then, he is delaying release to make sure he has a lot of new content.
Also it just makes sense, if content released in monthly updates is to small, then 2 months is most likely going be about right.
Your game has good content, the graphics are awesome in game, most likely best around but people want content in new updates, last update didn't have a lot of new content, I personally understand why due to the comments from yous in this thread. That reason is why am still watching this game thread, others don't see or understand what tidying code up and other stuff you said, so that could potentially be part of reason for your drop.
end of day, just trying to openly be honest with yous on a forum, not to ditch or to put down the work that yous have done, but to actually help because I do think this game has strong potential.
I would also add, and this is my own personal thing, but I also didn't like that there was no follow up to Bacon and MC not helping Heather against Scut and jeez, I forget her name. Basically Scut got his ass kicked and that was it, was disappointing, however that is just a personal dislike thing.
I really do not have anything more to add this, if you still take offence, then I understand why you would but what I say is true and I just posted with attention to help.
- Nov 1, 2017
- 1,406
- 2,317
lol that is kinda funny, I did think Gaz but then I thought nah that's a guys name.
- Apr 3, 2017
- 1,818
- 4,612
Ah the not enough content debate...one of my fav 
How to mesure the right content of an update? Many variables as : time passed, how big is the team, how many paths available... and the comparaison to others !
The last one is the tricky one because we always lack of true informations concerning the team, are they working full time on it? are they or is he a student(s) with a lot of free time on his/their hands? Do they have full time job and do the game on the side....
Exemple : Summertime saga - a every 2 months update - a 7 members team with 40K in the bank/month so we can assume at least one is full time on it....depends on where they live (2k monthly for a Russian is awesome, for a Yankee way way less..)
Timestamps - a every 1 and half month update (worst case) - a 2 team members with 1.8K in the bank/month and both are working full time jobs on daily basis.
So how do you compare that?
I don't take any side here, EVERY one is entitled to his point of view but the lack of content debate is and always will be so subjective !
How to mesure the right content of an update? Many variables as : time passed, how big is the team, how many paths available... and the comparaison to others !
The last one is the tricky one because we always lack of true informations concerning the team, are they working full time on it? are they or is he a student(s) with a lot of free time on his/their hands? Do they have full time job and do the game on the side....
Exemple : Summertime saga - a every 2 months update - a 7 members team with 40K in the bank/month so we can assume at least one is full time on it....depends on where they live (2k monthly for a Russian is awesome, for a Yankee way way less..)
Timestamps - a every 1 and half month update (worst case) - a 2 team members with 1.8K in the bank/month and both are working full time jobs on daily basis.
So how do you compare that?
I don't take any side here, EVERY one is entitled to his point of view but the lack of content debate is and always will be so subjective !
- Feb 17, 2018
- 3,580
- 10,112
Except me, of course, my analyses use razor sharp unimpeachable logic.
Thanks for this you are Totaly Right... and to be real clear i cannot call last update a small update... was probably the biggest one since i launch the game, it was more than 300 pics + all animation, extra animated menu, new location, new characters, game path additional content, lot of development in characters and setup to let place to more ''actions'' in next release.... I dont know what is call a small update?! There is limit a person can produce if we want some decent quality. All this drain lot of creative juiceAh the not enough content debate...one of my fav
How to mesure the right content of an update? Many variables as : time passed, how big is the team, how many paths available... and the comparaison to others !
The last one is the tricky one because we always lack of true informations concerning the team, are they working full time on it? are they or is he a student(s) with a lot of free time on his/their hands? Do they have full time job and do the game on the side....
Exemple : Summertime saga - a every 2 months update - a 7 members team with 40K in the bank/month so we can assume at least one is full time on it....depends on where they live (2k monthly for a Russian is awesome, for a Yankee way way less..)
Timestamps - a every 1 and half month update (worst case) - a 2 team members with 1.8K in the bank/month and both are working full time jobs on daily basis.
So how do you compare that?
I don't take any side here, EVERY one is entitled to his point of view but the lack of content debate is and always will be so subjective !
By change i have lot ideas and plan for the game but please guys stop the small update thing, i wont ever be able to produce more than this, my pc is rendering even when im sleeping!
First of all, the game is not completed yet, we have the rights and reservations to change anything we need to change if we feel like it brings better quality and depth to the game. This means modifying the story, making improvements, adding characters etc.
Second, I don't look at the short-term trend on our game either, sometimes it dips, this time around it dipped from a lot of projects, not only ours, people can also change their support from time to time, that's fine, we've already seen that we have overwhelmingly positive responses and from our supporters, that we are going in the right direction. We have more engagement from fans and supporters than ever before.
Now, to go back to your feedback,
I have seen your comments about the game previously, and it doesn't make any realistic sense,
In one post not long ago, after the release of this version you say that the release was bad and we have too much text and too few choices, yes, i remember your post. I'm always here.
If you want more choices, which we also added in this release, the choices also needs to have impact. If it needs impact, that means separate animations maybe, definitely some separate renders. So it will be impossible for you to see all of them. When you say "poor update" it's because maybe your path is not so expanded.
We already said that this path had focus on Juliana and Maureen dynamics, if you break up with Maureen, what do you expect to happen? You will get less content in this release. We can't please everyone.
What if you were a dick to heather? Well, look at that, maybe you get a bit less content with her too some versions.
You have zero interest in Veronika? Suddenly, wow, a lot less content in some releases as well.
You don't give a fuck about Gaz? Well too bad if we spend a lot of time and effort to give a good Gaz release and you decide to just skip it.
If we make 250 renders, and we have 5 paths, do you think that one path will be 250 renders? No, we need to split it up so there is some differentiation , maybe that means the main path is 170 and the off path contains 80 different images, then you only see 170 if you play one route, and you don't have any idea whats going on. The more paths we have, the more impact it will have on the general content that everyone may see in one play through.
I understand some of the feedback that you are giving but at this point you are complaining about the game because of a matter of preference not because of the game itself, we are not trying to be a full on mainstream harem game where MC just goes around and fucks everything that moves, we're trying to convey a story, and also expand on choices people can make, and open up even more for going back in time later and changing some things.
Yet here you come, saying you want more choices, less text, more renders, for what? How are we supposed to do this? Are we supposed to tap our shoes and magically have twice as much time and willpower to make a release? Just ignore the fact that we have to earn a living for pensions, for home, food, family, living expenses, enjoyment in life?
If you looked back you would already notice that last release wasn't after 4 weeks, it was 6-7 weeks, previous updates has also been varying around 6 weeks give or take even up to 2 months. We're already pushing in as much as we can
I explained this earlier as well, if i need more time coding, that just means that mot will be able to add more content that release, this is what happened last release, that you at the same time complained it was too little. We actually added in even more things in there just because i wasn't done and he had time to add more.
You compare us to summertime saga where they are right now, well look at them, they heave a team, they work full time, and it's bullshit that they release a lot of content because they don't always. Their game has been in development for years now and their funding is on a totally different level, and I have followed it for over a year. The artist also very picky with the designs and does most work himself with that too.
More funding is not always the solution for everything either, throwing money on something doesnt solve the problem, you reach a point where it doesn't matter as much, its just about finding that critical sweet spot where you can split up the responsibilities in a much more manageable way and also be allowed to focus more on the project, those matters the most. Then of course if you earn a lot, you can spend tons of money on rendering machines or tooling to improve your workflow even more.
The expectations somehow are that a team of 1-2 people need to push out as much as a team of 5?
I remember how summertime saga was a year ago, there wasn't really that much to it , at all. His funding came out of timing and immense exposure. Even back then he had tons of funding, he was on the top right there with darksilver.
I have followed their game for a long time, and the amount of content has not increased in parallel with his support. On the contrary, i remember several projects where they started expanding the team and the quality actually dropped, cause the game would become more unstable.
Anyways, i'm spending my off time to respond to this, because its important to me,
None of us are perfect, we improve every release, but what we are doing now is already on a way higher level than what we should be with our funding. We compensate that with sacrificing a lot for a while, to hopefulyl turn it over so it will support itself long term. We are not there yet and we can't please everyone, we are not planning on pleasing everyone.
It's just a slap to the face reading things like this from people that don't really know actually how much work it is to do something truly special and unique.
I can totally enjoy a good game at less than 720p graphics and lots of stock assets and untweaked daz models, for me personally quality isn't everything, it's the overall experience, but this is not what Timestamps is, timestamps is quality as well, on a level that should be above what you have seen with most others.
/A
- Nov 1, 2017
- 1,406
- 2,317
You make a very valid point and good post, however, they was asking about a drop off on patreon supporters and discussion about supporters other games had, compared to this one. I gave them two reasons, the second reason was content related, I actually think there drop off was probably more to do with patreon itself rather than them.Ah the not enough content debate...one of my fav
How to mesure the right content of an update? Many variables as : time passed, how big is the team, how many paths available... and the comparaison to others !
The last one is the tricky one because we always lack of true informations concerning the team, are they working full time on it? are they or is he a student(s) with a lot of free time on his/their hands? Do they have full time job and do the game on the side....
Exemple : Summertime saga - a every 2 months update - a 7 members team with 40K in the bank/month so we can assume at least one is full time on it....depends on where they live (2k monthly for a Russian is awesome, for a Yankee way way less..)
Timestamps - a every 1 and half month update (worst case) - a 2 team members with 1.8K in the bank/month and both are working full time jobs on daily basis.
So how do you compare that?
I don't take any side here, EVERY one is entitled to his point of view but the lack of content debate is and always will be so subjective !
Correct me if I am wrong but its not so much about the drop itself but where we are in general with the support too, this is something being mentioned over some time. For some reason we are just not growing at the pace of others that are also considered top games. Even if you look at their first year of development.
I think one of the biggest factor that plays in with our support has to be the slower bumpy start. Many of these games came in with a solid start and expanded upon that, it was about timing too, the market needed some new games like these. There aren't that many of the most popular games out there that has been enging swapping or needed to engine swap. I do know for example FILF went from rpgmaker to renpy recently, it made a huge impact on gameplay, suddenly it was a super short game but with better quality as you wouldnt spend hours just running from point A-B
On the the other side you have games like Max's life, a game that I personally like, he had his own kinda style even though quality was really lacking, his animations were quite something unique. Then people complained enough so he decided to remake the entire game with Daz, i find that a bit sad, because the game lost it's unique touch
- Nov 1, 2017
- 1,406
- 2,317
does it look like 300 pics+ was added though?Thanks for this you are Totaly Right... and to be real clear i cannot call last update a small update... was probably the biggest one since i launch the game, it was more than 300 pics + all animation, extra animated menu, new location, new characters, game path additional content, lot of development in characters and setup to let place to more ''actions'' in next release.... I dont know what is call a small update?! There is limit a person can produce if we want some decent quality. All this drain lot of creative juice
you know what you added, you know the rework on coding done, but just because you know it, doesn't mean everyone else can see it.
Aesouh stated maybe I didn't see everything due to choices made, fair enough but them that further limits the size of each update a customer sees, which could put some people off.
@Ignatz I see your logic and raise it with not only my COMFY chair of laziness, but also my SOFT pillows of insanity... So there.
Just a thought.
But you asked for more choices, what is it you want?
- Nov 1, 2017
- 1,406
- 2,317
Am going guess another reason why you not growing is "you" , look at the amount of text you typed to me and reread everything and the tone of the replies to me.Correct me if I am wrong but its not so much about the drop itself but where we are in general with the support too, this is something being mentioned over some time. For some reason we are just not growing at the pace of others that are also considered top games. Even if you look at their first year of development.
I think one of the biggest factor that plays in with our support has to be the slower bumpy start. Many of these games came in with a solid start and expanded upon that, it was about timing too, the market needed some new games like these. There aren't that many of the most popular games out there that has been enging swapping or needed to engine swap. I do know for example FILF went from rpgmaker to renpy recently, it made a huge impact on gameplay, suddenly it was a super short game but with better quality as you wouldnt spend hours just running from point A-B
On the the other side you have games like Max's life, a game that I personally like, he had his own kinda style even though quality was really lacking, his animations were quite something unique. Then people complained enough so he decided to remake the entire game with Daz, i find that a bit sad, because the game lost it's unique touch
yeah I was negative and I stand by everything I have said in this thread, and it was always posted with attention of helping and contributing to the discussion. Most of the stuff you stated in replies am already aware off, as I actually do know what am talking about, but end of day, it is just my opinion.
however, what i said is very tame to the negative comments you will get from some.
anyway, said what I said, up to yous what you do with game and if you take my advice or not, I got nothing else to add, I wish yous luck.
This is a forum thread not a direct message, hence i speak to everyone when I post here too. I appreciate when people come and want to give constructive criticism, we do take a lot in account and also make changes and improvements based on much feedback we get here, but you literally called our hardest worked release poor and you say that you know because you have experience, and I called you out on that. in one post you say that its poor because of lack of choices, and in the other post you complain that its too little content, because what, it didn't work with your preferences? Maybe this game just just isn't for you.
I think you are overestimating how much time I spend on writing up these posts. I'm not that much of a slow typer.
- Feb 17, 2018
- 3,580
- 10,112