VN Ren'Py Triple Ex [v0.23] [Azrayal]

[DA22]

When you put it that way I kind of get what you mean. For example if there is a choice whether the MC has toast or cereal for his breakfast that ends up with a branching path then the next day you add on another choice it can pile up and be a nightmare to manage.

Yeah that is why some people groan when they see a romantic game with 12 or more Li's since that is even for a relative big dev team almost impossible to manage with really meaningful choices over a long game. Even Bioware failed at managing all those choices with Mass Effect, there was a reason why they in the end chose for that colors option, praying fans would not go bonkers. Of course history showed that was a vain hope.

 

[TundraLupus]

I'm not sure if you are aware, but making theories and predictions are a huge part of what it means to be an engaged reader. It's actually explicitly part of the elementary level Reading/Language Arts curriculum, at least where I am in the USA. Of course, the second part of the strategy is follow through: checking your theory/prediction against what happens in the text. The big obstacle in this case is the huge amount of time between installments of the story. What we are doing here is a big part of what it means to be a "good" reader/consumer of literature. (I use that term somewhat loosely, but I do think that this story does have some literary aspirations beyond the typical fap-fest we find here. It's why we all are willing to virtually shout at each other for hours here after all!)

tundralupus, do you have any background in literary criticism? I'm asking because your insistence on evidence only from the text is a characteristic of some schools of criticism. The caveat, though, is that you are also supposed to consider from what PART of the text you are taking your evidence. Not all parts/characters in a story are equal. Unreliable narrators are a real thing, and I think there are many unreliable narrators in this story. Deb is the biggest. Marie is the second biggest. And even the MC is a bit unreliable, at least in as much as he often doesn't respond to shit thrown at him so we don't have any context to evaluate its veracity or not.

On the other hand, making connections between a story and the reader's own life and experiences is another completely valid reading/criticism strategy.

Look what you guys have made me do? I've had to put on my stodgy, pedantic teacher/professor persona! It's a lazy, rainy Sunday afternoon, and I'm trying to play the most recent update of one of my favorite games (Now and Then if you're interested! Check it out!) Stop distracting me!

First, good taste, I'm also playing said update.

Second, No I have no such background, but I'll try and accompany you here, I'll go point for a point though.

1. I agree, and I do like the discussions, I was more referring to the hateful ones and people that demanded character deaths and such, I do think the theories are interesting and sometimes take part in them, I just don't see hate as productive.

2. I do know of unreliable narrators, but I have to go with what the character knows if this were a book I would probably have a different view, but since it is a game I tend to face things on a character perspective, the Mc has no reason to doubt them yet, but I don't believe every single word of them, hell, I actually agree that it is more probable that things are darker than they look, but then comes preference and as I said character perspective, we are supposed to be the MC, which is one of the reasons I don't like scenes where the MC is not there, so I see things from his perspective, roleplaying, now besides that I prefer not to form my opnion out of assumpsions, again, I'm against the hate, altough more then once people have shown me their reasons and that was that I just don't like when people assume things and start to hate a character or game because of it or want changes that have really no reason to exist besides apeasing them, and also, I just love a good discussion.

3. Agreed.

 

[TundraLupus]

That is certainly a much more refined story control mechanism! A LOT harder to program and keep track of though...

I know that is why I said I prefer playing them, programming them can be a nightmare.

 

[TundraLupus]

Yeah that is why some people groan when they see a romantic game with 12 or more Li's since that is even for a relative big dev team almost impossible to manage with really meaningful choices over a long game. Even Bioware failed at managing all those choices with Mass Effect, there was a reason why they in the end chose for that colors option, praying fans would not go bonkers. Of course history showed that was a vain hope.

Oh Mass effect, "sigh", let's just not go there, but yeah, points can get messy, and arbitrary, but flags are an organizational nightmare, a good way of not getting screwed is given the illusion of choice, where the choice really doesn't branch more than a fell words and is not mentioned again, or a decision where you go left but is forced to go right either way but now you have a sliver of information more, and leave the important decisions as flags, and maybe points for the semi-important, still, just typing this shows what a mess it can be, programming is hell-of-fun but it can give you a headache.

 

[Sinister Dahlia]

First, yes the years of abuse are more likely responsible for her behavior, but let's do this.

1. She cheated with the wife, that admitted having a thing for her since before the whole MC getting arrested by the way, and that is wrong, but she cheated with her brother as well so that cancel it-self out, and with the brother, there is no excuse, now can you be mad about it, in my opinion, no you can't, you knew she wasn't the monogamous type, and you yourself used that to your advantage using her to cheat on your wife and previous girlfriends, do I like that they did this, no, I don't, because personally I don't like cheating, but since it happened in-game I can't do anything about it, now for when she did it, would I have? probably no, so yeah kinda fucked up to try and get with someone as they are hurt, but it seems that this is her way to cope, everything to Deb is solved with sex.

In the begining we know MC is somewhat pushed into a relationship with Deb (but let's drop this, he wanted to be with her, why is irrelevant), and he is monogamous until he meets his wife. Deb did not cheat with his wife UNTIL he went to jail - and never before stated that she has feelings for her. If that is not a stab in the back, I don't know what it is. She could have cheated when MC "was not there for his wife" n ot when he went to jail (seemingly unjustly) Strike 1

2. Again, that is fucked up, I already said that mostly though, she loved both, not just the MC, and the whole idea, again, and I'm tired of presenting this point, again and again, they did it, supposedly to keep him away from what got him arrested and prevent his death, now, was that the best idea? Hell no, it is an awful one that does more harm than good, but that is something that people do, they force a situation "for your own good" without even realizing how bad of an idea, and the harm that it will cause, and a lot of times they will not admit they were in the wrong, that is most of the time the result of an abusive relationship with the parents, that translates to the rest.

Well that is just dandy - Deb states that she loves MC "mostest", but rapes his soul, not to mention the soul of an inocent child. But because she said she loves MC and his wife equally that's ok. In what way a normal person would think torturing MC and mentally abusing Milly is for their own good. But it fits if you just look at Deb a s seriously twisted and unadjusted personality. MC GOT OUT OF JAIL, then searched for his family, so the point of keeping him safe does not work.

3. First, she is not a monster, if you are gonna enter an argument with me keep your fucking opinion out of it(you were rude, so I'll be too, I hate when people comment on others bodies like that, fictional or not, that is a disgusting attitude), now, yes that is fucked up, I never denied that in any moment, but again, that was the mother wishes, if Deb didn't go along she would lose contact as well, so I can see a reason to do so, that is something that she has to atone for, and did you read the story? There is a reason given for this, a dumb reason, but a reason nonetheless, a reason that many parents use in real life, fucked up I know, but true.

Yup I knew you were like this, resorting to swearing and being rude.I'll ignore you on that.
So let's talk about healthy level of weight training for an underage person. Milly is rendered as visibly overtrained, maybe even hormone medicated to reach that level of muscle mass (specially underage when muscle gains are not so prominent as with persons older thatn 20 [22 actually, but who counts])- there is a psychological condition for that, and that even slots in rather correctly within the story where she is severely mentally/psychologically abused by her mother and Deb, messed up with incestuous feelings. Going back to Deb's sin - she could have helped with simple "but he told me he still cares for you", instead colluded with mom to depict MC as an utter monster towards his daughter. No excuse possible for that one - as I think Dev wanted to show Deb as an utter scum in this

4. She undermines him, that is true, and I already answered something similar, but that has no holding in his relationship with Milly, besides making her horny, also, the problem is in how the MC reacts, to what she does, I don't minder being sexual or rude or inappropriate, but the MC needs to have a moment to show that he is to be respected, at least in combat situations, and maybe some more reactions, but my MC is not embarrassed by her, so I don't have a real problem besides them not listening in combat situations, now if this is because you want Milly tp respect the Mc, that will take time, you said yourself she was taught that he didn't want her and has discovered the truth for about a day, this things won't be solved that fast, it has been a week in-game you have to remember that.

Let's be frank in this world (outrage &cancel culture #metoo, etc) NO means NO. If Deb did not want Milly's poontang she could have said NO. Even when pussyblocked by MC, it looks like she "helps" him in the same way she helps him with Julie - in order to get in on the action (be inserted into the MC's relationship as a controller/beneficiary of threesomes) However I do agree that MC is depicted with a lack of authority - most of us discuss on this forum that it's a bad thing, on the other hand Deb's authority consists of shopping with girls, wearing dresses, swearing, groping left and right, lying, sexual predator behavior...true picture of authority. But if she wants to help MC re-build his relationship with Milly, she sure shows that in a strange way, degrading MC any chance she gets

5. This one I didn't understand at all, with Milly she wanted to show the MC that she wasn't the only one interested in sexual contact, it was mostly to prove a point. With Julia, it was a "Look what you are missing out in, idiot" because if you played the game they invited him to a threesome, and the MC denied, I have already talked about this, and I wouldn't deny it and wish we had a choice in the matter. This for me made no sense, so what that she is watching porn? They have seen combat, some bruised ribs were what a got in training practicing martial arts, it isn't a big deal, also she has zero sexual hangups and is more of a friend to Milly then aunt, they were talking about that before the MC showed up and only continued after, that is it.

MC has shown to be "mostly" monogamous person (aside from being with Deb ). So he clearly stated he's "faithful" to Astrid/rejects threesome with Julia and the "Ilsa (Deb) the she wolf of the SS". She immediately punishes/mocks him by stealing a camera to send him video of her NTR-ing Julia. Also when Millie takes MC to her room to bandage him/clean his wounds, Deb is not in the room for some time, she came at the same time as Milly, couple of minutes before MC. He's hurt, his daughter is concerned and tending to his wounds, and Deb is watching porn - does that seem normal, or is it a mocking/insinuating behavior, specially with her targeted comments.

All in all I appreciate your view and thoughts on the game, and Deb. I even understand some of your stances - but I do not agree with them, as much as you do not agree with mine. And that's ok - we are not US College union/administration that disqualifies anyone who does not think and speak like Hollywood liberal Marxists = you are fully entitled to your opinion. As am I to mine

 

[Jstforme]

I just can't see how anyone could possibly look at Deb's actions/behavior, and think to themselves that it's fine, if not normal. I think it's quite clear that the Dev has gone out of their way to show that Deb is a terrible person, and is going to get them all in some real danger.

 

[TundraLupus]

In the begining we know MC is somewhat pushed into a relationship with Deb (but let's drop this, he wanted to be with her, why is irrelevant), and he is monogamous until he meets his wife. Deb did not cheat with his wife UNTIL he went to jail - and never before stated that she has feelings for her. If that is not a stab in the back, I don't know what it is. She could have cheated when MC "was not there for his wife" n ot when he went to jail (seemingly unjustly) Strike 1

I`ll not mention anything that Deb says because I don`t feel like replaying the game now but I believe she said she was at least attracted to the wife since before the cheating when explaining herself, but ignore that, so about the cheating only after he went to jail, for me that makes more sense than before, Deb had an obsession with the Mc (used past tense because the character is kind of all over the place) so while he was available she nor the wife had a reason to relieve their sexual tension any other way, does this excuse the cheating? No, but it still makes the MC a hypocrite for being mad since he cheated on his wife, even though he had no excuse.

Well that is just dandy - Deb states that she loves MC "mostest", but rapes his soul, not to mention the soul of an inocent child. But because she said she loves MC and his wife equally that's ok. In what way a normal person would think torturing MC and mentally abusing Milly is for their own good. But it fits if you just look at Deb a s seriously twisted and unadjusted personality. MC GOT OUT OF JAIL, then searched for his family, so the point of keeping him safe does not work.

Never said it was ok, my argument is mostly against her knowingly doing this stuff to the MC out of malice after he stopped searching or better paused it because the lead had gone cold, and after about a year he didn't get self-destructive and didn't look for the same problems again, then I agree she should have told him or tried to convince the wife to, in the end, we don't really know if she did or not, either way, I was giving a reason for why she did it, not saying it was right, again for me peoples motivations are important, and understanding their circumstances to try and guide them to be better.

Yup I knew you were like this, resorting to swearing and being rude.I'll ignore you on that.
So let's talk about healthy level of weight training for an underage person. Milly is rendered as visibly overtrained, maybe even hormone medicated to reach that level of muscle mass (specially underage when muscle gains are not so prominent as with persons older thatn 20 [22 actually, but who counts])- there is a psychological condition for that, and that even slots in rather correctly within the story where she is severely mentally/psychologically abused by her mother and Deb, messed up with incestuous feelings. Going back to Deb's sin - she could have helped with simple "but he told me he still cares for you", instead colluded with mom to depict MC as an utter monster towards his daughter. No excuse possible for that one - as I think Dev wanted to show Deb as an utter scum in this

The first part was because of how you view her body as monstrous, if you don't feel like that is an unaware insult and being rude yourself, then I don't know, besides that though, i agree that it is unhealthy, but not being physically abused, it was self-inflicted as a result to the mental "abuse", and if you had said it was unhealthy and given the reasons like the ones above, i would actually have agreed to some degree, nowhere is the important thing, i think your view of abuse and mine are very different, abuse to me has to be intentional and/or continual, it has to be something repeated, the mother told her a lie and never gone back on it, and Deb just didn't correct her, she is guilty of omission, in that I agree. Also just remembered that after the mother lied once she didn't need to repeat it because Milly stopped asking about her father and internalized her feelings, these people really need a psychologist.

Let's be frank in this world (outrage &cancel culture #metoo, etc) NO means NO. If Deb did not want Milly's poontang she could have said NO. Even when pussyblocked by MC, it looks like she "helps" him in the same way she helps him with Julie - in order to get in on the action (be inserted into the MC's relationship as a controller/beneficiary of threesomes) However I do agree that MC is depicted with a lack of authority - most of us discuss on this forum that it's a bad thing, on the other hand Deb's authority consists of shopping with girls, wearing dresses, swearing, groping left and right, lying, sexual predator behavior...true picture of authority. But if she wants to help MC re-build his relationship with Milly, she sure shows that in a strange way, degrading MC any chance she gets

I'll answear your last point first, sorry, i don't really see your point, the Mc's relationship with his daugther is not influenced by degrading, his autorathy maybe, but at this point, since he wasn't there since forever, she wouldn't respect his autoraty either way, not until he proves himself, you can't demand respec, and sadly this MC is not someone I would respec either, which is sad and the reason why I almost droped this game multiple times, but again I might not understand your point because I don't care about how people are threated by others, I judge them by how they interact with others and me, and so does Milly, and I'll get meta here because her liking to the Mc has nothing to do with Deb's actions, only ours, also most of the "MC" points, that I don't know if it is about anger or autorythy, never or at least almost never goes up or down when she is present, it is mostly when the Mc is either talking to Julia or Deb alone. I really don't blame her for wanting to get some, and really don't care if she inserts herself as long as it isn't her invading the room while the MC fucks someone and trying to get into that moment, otherwise, I don't see the harm in her getting some.

MC has shown to be "mostly" monogamous person (aside from being with Deb ). So he clearly stated he's "faithful" to Astrid/rejects threesome with Julia and the "Ilsa (Deb) the she wolf of the SS". She immediately punishes/mocks him by stealing a camera to send him video of her NTR-ing Julia. Also when Millie takes MC to her room to bandage him/clean his wounds, Deb is not in the room for some time, she came at the same time as Milly, couple of minutes before MC. He's hurt, his daughter is concerned and tending to his wounds, and Deb is watching porn - does that seem normal, or is it a mocking/insinuating behavior, specially with her targeted comments.

This is a plothole then because my Mc didn't have any commitment to Astrid, they were seing each other but I told her that it was way too complicated at the moment, actually, he says that in both options, one of them being only in a more positive spin of "lets grab a coffe when we can", but I would need to replay, and as I said I'm not feeling like it right now, the rest is your opnion, for me, it wasn't, first NTR for me is when somene is in a relationship, and the MC isn't in one with Julia, second, they were there while the MC was talking to Julia, which by the looks of where the porn image and comments would have been a good 10-20 minutes, I don't know if you watch a lot of lesbian porn but the really good ones take theyr time to get to the oral, but it might have been a 5-6 minutes video as well, either way they were having that conversation before the Mc showed up, and only continued afterwards, and as I said, she knows bruised ribs are nothing, and my Mc acted calm enough that she wouldn't really panic, otherwise i don't know what to say, this was mostly about your emotions then anything, but this is my view on it, i can respect yours.

All in all I appreciate your view and thoughts on the game, and Deb. I even understand some of your stances - but I do not agree with them, as much as you do not agree with mine. And that's ok - we are not US College union/administration that disqualifies anyone who does not think and speak like Hollywood liberal Marxists = you are fully entitled to your opinion. As am I to mine

Agree with the sentiment, don't really understand the "Hollywood liberal Marxists" but either way normally both sides are being idiots about something so I don't really care.

Edit: The only actions that I don't find "that bad" are the cheating and banging people, hell I wouldn't have forbidden her to go for Milly if the dev hadn't forced it, the other information that the Mc doesn't have yet, that one is complicated since I don't care about the cheating, that will be strike one, and that if she actually tells him about it or not deny it if he figures it out somehow, so to my MC she is on the clear until he figures that out.

 

[Glooskabe]

tundralupus Sinister Dahlia

I'm not gonna quote your messages because they are hella long.

I think there may be some issues with timelines and details that might be causing/exacerbating some misunderstandings here.

As for when Deb and Marie started their affair, it wasn't when he was in prison. It was while he was away on a (presumably classified) deployment. Marie talks about needing to be quiet so as not to wake Milly and the babysitter so Milly was probably still fairly young. There is no length of time specified for the affair. However, Milly talks about finding Deb and Marie in bed together as a normal thing when she was a kid, again no specific age given. I think it's safe to assume that it went on for several years at least though. As an aside, exposing a minor to sexual situations is considered child sexual abuse in many if not all jurisdictions. Since Deb "always" sleeps naked, she and possibly (I'd suggest likely, but there's no direct evidence of it!) Marie were naked in bed together when Milly found them. This would probably count under the child sexual abuse statutes. For the record, I'm in the USA, and I have no idea what the laws in the UK on this issue would be, but they're likely similar.

I think it's fair to say MC wasn't happy about finding out his wife and his sister were fucking, but most of his issue with the situation was about Deb lying to him, technically omitting to tell him the truth. This was a huge part of his relationship with Deb, something SHE insisted on. He justifiably felt betrayed. MC says it's pretty likely he would have been fine with Marie and Deb hooking up if they had told him about it. That's not really an excuse, but it is what it is. I have stated in this forum months ago that I think that in many ways, MC may have viewed his relationship with Deb to be his primary relationship so her betrayal hurt him infinitely more than Marie's. Side question: Why the fuck was Marie so adamant that MC couldn't know about her and Deb hooking up?

Lots of people are assuming that Deb knew everything about what Marie did with Milly. All we know is that Deb had been in contact with Marie from time to time by phone. Julia actually tells Deb that Marie specifically DIDN'T tell her everything regarding Milly. When Deb and Milly meet at the mansion, it's clear that they haven't seen each other for quite awhile. Deb talks about how she has grown. She is in awe/wonder at Milly's tan and physique. They haven't been getting together for mani/pedis and pillow fights every weekend. Later on, when they are talking for the first time in Milly's room, Milly says "It's not like you wanted to be a part of my life for the last seven years." When they are sleeping together, Milly talks about having wanted Deb to visit sooner or to visit here when they visited UK, but Marie never allowed it saying Deb was busy with work. It's pretty clear at this point that Deb and Milly haven't seen each other for 7 years either.

The other thing I had to look up was about whether MC & Deb's parents have been in contact with Milly and Marie. I didn't think they were, but turns out I was wrong. They have been in contact at least since the previous year's family Gathering, whatever that is. (Fuck them! I'm now on the Hate Nan Train too!)

 

[TundraLupus]

Glooskabe I`ll not quote you for the same reason, but thanks for the clarifications, and yeah, I`m not currently a fan of nan either, but my MC doesn`t know about that so, no hate yet.

I don`t know about the laws in the UK either, but since Mary was present at the time I actually doubt Deb was naked, she probably was in her undies, and maybe even braless though, but yeah, I don`t know, if she was that would actually make me a little uncomfortable.

That is kind of what I got as well, and you made that point in a far better way then I could, and yeah, that whole thing annoys me a little, but it might be that Mary just had an irrational fear that if they told the MC he would leave her, but I don`t know.

Yeah, I mentioned assumptions before, but I keep forgetting people don`t read all of the replies, again you make the point better then I could.

Again, not liking how nan is looking, and that combined with the flashbacks don`t paint her in a good light, but I`ll refrain from judgment until we actually have more interactions with her.

 

[Glooskabe]

I don`t know about the laws in the UK either, but since Mary was present at the time I actually doubt Deb was naked, she probably was in her undies, and maybe even braless though, but yeah, I don`t know, if she was that would actually make me a little uncomfortable.

M "No, please stay, it's fine. I remember when you used to sleep at our home when we lived on the base, you were always naked when you slept with mum." line 6540 of script.rpy

 

[TundraLupus]

M "No, please stay, it's fine. I remember when you used to sleep at our home when we lived on the base, you were always naked when you slept with mum." line 6540 of script.rpy

Ok, I meant if she slept with Milly naked, otherwise I don`t find nudity in itself to be that much of a problem.

 

[Glooskabe]

Ok, I meant if she slept with Milly naked, otherwise I don`t find nudity in itself to be that much of a problem.

It isn't really the nudity per se, but the implied sexual situation... This is pretty clearly referring to the two of them conducting their affair with Milly in the room next door...

Even if you don't want to connect those dots (since it isn't spelled out directly), there is a difference between nudity within a family/household and with outsiders. For instance, within my household, we're pretty blase about nudity, but nobody outside our household is getting naked around my kids. No way, no how! Double "no way, no how" is anybody outside the household going to be sleeping with me or my wife in our bed naked...

Finally, I'm quite serious about this meeting the legal definition of child sexual abuse. I recently took a training class for mandated reporters and a situation like this was used as an example. At the very least, if I knew of something like this happening to a child, I would be obligated to report it to authorities for a thorough investigation and potentially subject to criminal penalties if I failed to do so.

 

[TundraLupus]

It isn't really the nudity per se, but the implied sexual situation... This is pretty clearly referring to the two of them conducting their affair with Milly in the room next door...

Even if you don't want to connect those dots (since it isn't spelled out directly), there is a difference between nudity within a family/household and with outsiders. For instance, within my household, we're pretty blase about nudity, but nobody outside our household is getting naked around my kids. No way, no how! Double "no way, no how" is anybody outside the household going to be sleeping with me or my wife in our bed naked...

Finally, I'm quite serious about this meeting the legal definition of child sexual abuse. I recently took a training class for mandated reporters and a situation like this was used as an example. At the very least, if I knew of something like this happening to a child, I would be obligated to report it to authorities for a thorough investigation and potentially subject to criminal penalties if I failed to do so.

Ok, weird law, but okay, besides that, it is complicated, the implied sexual situation is not a problem to me either, for one the kid would not understand, and for two no explicit sexual act happened in from of them, for me it would be a problem if said nude person entered in physical contact with the child or did any explicit sexual act in front of them, otherwise I don`t see a problem personally, but each person is different, and laws are different around the world as well, so I don`t know.

Edit: depending on their age, the kid would not understand depending on their age, also, this makes me think if they were that careless in their cheating how long did they think it would last? Milly would have told her dad about it if she was old enough to understand what was happening.

 

[Jstforme]

well, all very good points. I think it's safe to say however that shit is going to hit the fan for Deb, the secret will come out eventually. Some of the above revelations put Deb in a slightly better light, but I still hate her.

 

[lu2]

hi guys

who MC deb or Jake?

because it looks like she is mc not jake and everything goes her way

 

[TundraLupus]

hi guys

who MC deb or Jake?

because it looks like she is mc not jake and everything goes her way

I don't want an argument, because if you check above you will see I've through it already and am done, but help understand what you meant, the Mc is only the MC if things go their way? Would you think the same if this was a AAA game? But No Deb isn't the MC the game is in the beginning and there are things that were revealed to the player but not to the character(which I think it is a mistake in a game, I don't like it even in books but in games, I just think it is the biggest mistake an author can make) that is why so many people hate Deb and that is also why so many characters don't, we have to wait and see where it goes.

 

[lu2]

she can do almost anything and say almost all and np
MC is too passive
looks like he's lost in history game

 

[TundraLupus]

she can do almost anything and say almost all and np
MC is too passive
looks like he's lost in history game

Ok, I don't see a problem with her being able to do or say anything she "wants", but yeah most of us agree that the MC is way too passive and that certain choices should to be the players and not just be trusted upon us, my two are the Mc talk to Deb about Milly and him denying the threesome, also the whole "monogamy" thing, I really don't see why the MC would be so keen on it knowing that he will cheat, I want an option to just tell the other girls in case of a relationship blossoming(because right now he is talking to the air hostess girl but they are not dating) that I don't want a monogamous one.

Besides that, again the story is in the beginning, but so far his relationship with his daughter is getting better, he is "talking" to the air hostess(forgot her name and if that is the name of her job in English, sorry), he is friendly and more with the mafia girl that is Milly's friend(sorry I'm awful with names), he has a "contract" with an unknown group to protect his daughter, he is flirting with Julia but because we didn't get a choice he is not sexually involved with her, and conflict is brewing between him and his sister.

Edit: I do understand where you are coming from though, and I think the whole following other characters make it seem that way because most of the exposition came from scenes where the MC is not present.

 

[DickoNicko]

I don't want an argument, because if you check above you will see I've through it already and am done, but help understand what you meant, the Mc is only the MC if things go their way? Would you think the same if this was a AAA game? But No Deb isn't the MC the game is in the beginning and there are things that were revealed to the player but not to the character(which I think it is a mistake in a game, I don't like it even in books but in games, I just think it is the biggest mistake an author can make) that is why so many people hate Deb and that is also why so many characters don't, we have to wait and see where it goes.

For a person who claims "I don't want an argument" you seem to be itching for one (or another one at this point). The fact this people still writing their opinions here, means they're still hoping for the dev/game to fix the screw ups and become a good one. You're giving me the "I can' t see an opinion different than mine, without criticizing it" vibe. Debates and discussions are good time to time, but not realizing when our point becomes mere ad nauseam is a huge fail and most times end ruining our own argument. Anyway, reading a lot of comments is obvious that almost everybody seems to think the same about the game's story (yeah; sounds like ad populum I know, but in this case looks pretty valid). Personally; I believe turning the kinda more decent character close to Milly, the closest to a motherly figure she has and a potential LI to the MC into another one of Deb's whores was a mayor screw up and was the final nail in the coffin for me (unless a huge almost miracle fix happens in the game), but that's just my opinion and I don't mind if others disagree with it. Anyway, have a good one.

 

[TundraLupus]

For a person who claims "I don't want an argument" you seem to be itching for one (or another one at this point). The fact this people still writing their opinions here, means they're still hoping for the dev/game to fix the screw ups and become a good one. You're giving me the "I can' t see an opinion different than mine, without criticizing it" vibe. Debates and discussions are good time to time, but not realizing when our point becomes mere ad nauseam is a huge fail and most times end ruining our own argument. Anyway, reading a lot of comments is obvious that almost everybody seems to think the same about the game's story (yeah; sounds like ad populum I know, but in this case looks pretty valid). Personally; I believe turning the kinda more decent character close to Milly, the closest to a motherly figure she has and a potential LI to the MC into another one of Deb's whores was a mayor screw up and was the final nail in the coffin for me (unless a huge almost miracle fix happens in the game), but that's just my opinion and I don't mind if others disagree with it. Anyway, have a good one.

Not really, I was asking them what makes them think of her as the MC, because as I said I want to know what is the criteria for them, so maybe I can understand his point better, and they answered, and as I said one post above yours I understand why they said it was more because of the Mc's passiveness and that it seemed that he got lost in the story, and I can agree that the game makes it look like that, you are the one that brought back the whole Julia-Deb, my question had nothing to do with that, I wanted to learner a new point of view. I don't understand why of the use of "whores" but other than that I can see your point.

Edit: Also if we actually explain properly what we don't like and why, maybe, just maybe if the dev feels like it, they'll change it, it is hard to change something without knowing what it is, people just saying "oh Deb feels more like the MC than the MC", okay, but why? if the dev doesn't know why, how can they change it?