VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [Ch. 3 Full] [Oceanlab]

[Tremonia]

Well, I made that statement after viewing several particular game threads over the years.

I said the same things more then once, too. I'm completely with you on this topic. On this board as a dev you can't win. Towards devs this community is toxic. I don't get it. It could be a good platform where devs and players debate. Okay, there's this piracy thing and the most devs don't like that part, but still. There were a lot of devs here who're blowed off by mostly random users. Even big fishes like Nyx, Drifty or SFS. I really like it here, but it has it's flaws. That's for sure.

 

[hermit_tr]

Well, I made that statement after viewing several particular game threads over the years.

For example, there are wise Devs who know not to announce a release date until they are absolutely certain they can make the deadline. This usually occurs a week to a month before release. In the intervening months between updates, the F95 game threads contain the usual "milking" / "update taking too long" comments.

As for Ocean (and I'm going from memory here), he announced an estimated release schedule for SG 5 Beta, SG 5 full, WIAB 3 Beta, WIAB 3 Full a month or so in advance of the SG 5 Beta release.

I recall that he released the Betas more or less when he said he would, missed releasing WIAB 3 Full by a couple of days, and has yet to release SG 5 full (since it's the Steam release, the delay is understandable).

For the initial estimate (December or January for the WiAB and SG Finals), I'm sure Ocean has calculated it.

But everything didn't go as planned. Such as suddenly moving house and rendering requiring more VRam (too many rendering processes crashing), which ended up moving all the data to another PC.

The initial plan was that the purchase of a new GPU (a whole new PC with amd threadripper 5000 series and 2 RTX 6000 ADA) would occur after the release of SG on Steam, but would have to be pushed forward to speed up the rendering process.

 

[rudy007]

I said the same things more then once, too. I'm completely with you on this topic. On this board as a dev you can't win. Towards devs this community is toxic. I don't get it. It could be a good platform where devs and players debate. Okay, there's this piracy thing and the most devs like that part, but still. There were a lot of devs here who're blowed off by mostly random users. Even big fishes like Nyx, Drifty or SFS. I really like it here, but it has it's flaws. That's for sure.

There are benefits for the developer to be here, mostly passive. Reading and understand, and trying stay cool. Those are unfiltered messages. When you can ignore poisoners messages and trolls of all sort, the rest is gold for a developer; new ideas, what people like, dislike, does the direction where game goes is correct. Unfiltered messages are much better then bunch of "yes Sayers" because there, on Patreon page under paying people, are very rarely critics.

 

[Krytax123]

There are benefits for the developer to be here, mostly passive. Reading and understand, and trying stay cool. Those are unfiltered messages. When you can ignore poisoners messages and trolls of all sort, the rest is gold for a developer; new ideas, what people like, dislike, does the direction where game goes is correct. Unfiltered messages are much better then bunch of "yes Sayers" because there are very rarely critic.

I disagree completly, there is nothing valuable about the critics here for most devs. Maybe for a few who are just starting out and get indeed helped out here and have a way more patient readership here (but just at the beginning ..) otherwise the only benefit for devs here is to use it as free advertisement.

99% of the critics are just really dumb people with a dumb and simple minded mindset and usually its the guys who never pledge anyway.

Nothing about "This game sucks, i cant fuck my mom" is valuable no matter how many harem or incest enthusiasts cry about it, sometimes being here feels like youre surrounded by a bunch of overly impatient and entitled 12 year olds with severe adhs.

Guys like Ottoeight for example, always whining and crying in oceans threads behaving as if his insight (about ocean being slow) is anything new or interesting but he still cant just fuck off as it seems like he still want to play it.

Or people predicting a bad financial future for the dev if he doesnt involve kink x or whatever, its just 99% very stupid shit and i imagine the most valuable critics are on patreon anyway.

 

[yossa999]

There are benefits for the developer to be here, mostly passive. Reading and understand, and trying stay cool. Those are unfiltered messages. When you can ignore poisoners messages and trolls of all sort, the rest is gold for a developer; new ideas, what people like, dislike, does the direction where game goes is correct. Unfiltered messages are much better then bunch of "yes Sayers" because there, on Patreon page under paying people, are very rarely critic.

A developer has only one benefit from being here: to present their game to a wider audience, as well as to make advertising and future teasers. Once the game is noticed, there is no point in staying at all. The average toxicity of the discussion here kills any constructivism. There are more convenient ways for discussing suggestions that do not allow kink-lobbyists or kink-shamers or simply neurotics to approach the developer and spoil the devs mind with their phobias, obssessions or direct insults.

And the developer doesn't really need to know that this certain dude doesn't like red panties, so he runs around threads looking for red panties, and when he finds them, he starts spamming similar messages about how the game is crap and the developer is an idiot because there are red panties.

"I don’t like this, so you should do that" is not criticism, it’s a person’s individual preferences. Opinion is like a butthole, everyone has it. But the success or failure of the project depends entirely on the developer and their decisions (and the luck of course). Therefore, only the devs decisions are matter. If these critics had anything valuable to offer, they had already crowdfunded their own project, hired writers, artists, and programmers with the raised money, and turned it into a successful and profitable enterprise.

On the other hand, what do I know about how to make a successful game? So I'll just quote the developer of that one game that many people don't completely dislike. (By the way, this developer also started on the Zone, but at some point left it)

Spoiler: The quote

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[rudy007]

I disagree completly, there is nothing valuable about the critics here for most devs. Maybe for a few who are just starting out and get indeed helped out her and have a way more patient readership her (but just at the beginning ..) otherwise the only benefit for devs here is to use it as free advertisement.

99% of the critics are just really dumb people with a dumb and simple minded mindset and usually its the guys who never pledge anyway.

Nothing about "This game sucks, i cant fuck my mom" is valuable no matter how many harem or incest enthusiasts cry about it, sometimes being here feels like youre surrounded by a bunch of overly impatient and entitled 12 year olds with severe adhs.

Guys like Ottoeight for example, always whining and crying in oceans threads behaving as if his insight (about ocean being slow) is anything new or interesting but he still cant just fuck off as it seems like he still want to play it.

Or people predicting a bad financial future for the dev if he doesnt involve kink x or whatever, its just 99% very stupid shit and i imagine the most valuable critics are on patreon anyway.

I respect your opinion but I don't have to agree. I said: "filter" when reading, means ignoring those ; update to short, why/when sex with (insert your person), game is stupid etc. Reason? When somebody like a game, he will not come with such attitude.

But you both (yossa999 ) are right, this page has wider audience and it's good for advertising the game. And, for me, it's always better when developer is here too... Many of them came here, but run away. Its too many people who doesn't come her for help/advice/seeing when it will be updated/simple conversation between people who like the game, critic about something, but many try to change a game how they would like it and use harsh words. They don't try to understand that a AVN is primary story how that developer imagine it, not they...

If I start a game and I like it, I continue to play, probably come to discuss it here. If I see that story made a wrong turn, well, I will not continue... But I will not come to shit about it. There are things when I stop playing the game, but those aren't always in tags. But they have to be dramatic, small things I simple ignore. I understand that story isn't written from me or for me.... Stories can't always be perfect for you.
I like both Ocean's games, not every detail, but they are one of the best here.

 

[Krytax123]

I respect your opinion but I don't have to agree. I said: "filter" when reading, means ignoring those ; update to short, why/when sex with (insert your person), game is stupid etc. Reason? When somebody like a game, he will not come with such attitude.

On the contrary i believe these kind of attitude develops through likeing a game (too much maybe), they are just overly impatient like a little kid who cant wait for their birthday.

Afterwards they become entitled and pissed at the dev for being too slow because their life revolves around the avn(s), just look at the SG and WIAB forum here, its suprisingly the same people over and over whining about him being slow but somehow still not being able to just ignore the avn.

Its some kind of twisted (and dumb) mindest thinking if they convince enough other players (the not-paying kind most of the times lmao) they will kinda force the dev to change his course which proves once again their simple minds.

Feel free to do your research about the critics, look at the last 100 pages in this thread for example, im gonna bet the amount of useful critics is barely there and if its most of the times something hyper obvious anyway.

The best devs (imo) manage to not be influenced by their players and stay true to their vision (obviously they need to have a good idea and talent) like the example of DPC yossa999 posted.

Every single avn which started to cater to the community went downhill pretty fast afterwards at least to my knowledge

 

[Mortarion]

I respect your opinion but I don't have to agree. I said: "filter" when reading, means ignoring those ; update to short, why/when sex with (insert your person), game is stupid etc. Reason? When somebody like a game, he will not come with such attitude.

In an ideal world would be true what you said. but ...
... we are not.

98% of the feedback here is toxic, rubbish or borderline stupid.

The ones who care about the game took other way to express thier construictive critism, may it be through Patreon/Subscribe Star or via discord.

Lazzy ass of myself has no desire to make the hassle for a DM on SS and just send my thoughts via DM to Ocean on discord.

The devs from Chasing Sunsets have put thier opinion about this community, the Zone, and the advertising effect of it in this way:

From thier expierience, as soon there was a successfull steam/gog/epic whatever release, the zone is totally irrelevant and meaningless.

 

[Mortarion]

Every single avn which started to cater to the community went downhill pretty fast afterwards at least to my knowledge

I can only agree with this completely, more than enough examples here in the zone to proof this.

This way is a sure method for a dev to turn the game into a giant clusterfuck.

 

[Quetzzz]

Story-related feedback/response does not affect planned content. With no intention of sounding rude, players' opinions about the story, who gets screen time, or lewd scenes don't matter to me. Players are in for the ride but not driving the car.

The only feedback I consider are QoL improvements to the game, bug reports, and typo reports. I make occasional surveys to see if I can improve in some area, but other than that, I don't want fans/players to have a say in what's being created. I don't like when developers change their ideas to cater to or in response to the audience - I don't think any true author does.

The funny thing is, depending on who said it, this sounds either like hubris or confidence. In the case of WiAB, I like the story, I like (and hate) the characters, but I don't like how the story is told (drip-feeding crucial information to the player that every character is already aware of). While subjective, this is a valid criticism. Mentioning this doesn't mean I expect Ocean to rework the game (again), but it could give him the indication that (some) people are getting frustrated with that aspect.

Looking at the Slaves of Rome release on Steam, it's a sad example of what happens when yes-men-patreon constantly blow smoke up a dev's ass.

 

[yossa999]

The funny thing is, depending on who said it, this sounds either like hubris or confidence. In the case of WiAB, I like the story, I like (and hate) the characters, but I don't like how the story is told (drip-feeding crucial information to the player that every character is already aware of). While subjective, this is a valid criticism. Mentioning this doesn't mean I expect Ocean to rework the game (again), but it could give him the indication that (some) people are getting frustrated with that aspect.

Looking at the Slaves of Rome release on Steam, it's a sad example of what happens when yes-men-patreon constantly blow smoke up a dev's ass.

Frankly, I was also annoyed at first by this way of storytelling. But in the old WiAB it was much more intense; To be honest, before going to the lake with girls, I didn’t even understand what this game was about, and how all these scenes that were shown to me were connected. The new WiAB is better in this sense. I think this style is a tool to keep the narrative vague, tp create a mystery that will keep the players' attention for a while and keep them guessing "what the fuck is going on" and that will be resolved towards the end.

In SG, in this sense, everything seems even more confusing to me; the entire first season only adds strange events without explaining their real meaning in the story, ambiguous phrases in dialogue, random facts about the main characters in casual gossips told between secondary characters. In general, it creates mystery and some handmade chaos in the narrative, like everything is not what it really seems. But at the same time, certain main storylines are still preserved, and are being developed quite straightforwardly.

Again, this style of storytelling is not for everyone and quite confusing and sometimes even annoying, but that's what this author's stories are like. Changing the narrative and redoing it seems a dead end to me, and I’m not sure that it will work out at all; it seems to me that the stories are built on mystery and ambiguity. Some parts of the story are deliberately left vague until the time comes to reveal them, and it's likely that new information will change the meaning of previously shown scenes. This is not a bug, it's a feature. Those who liked the TV series Lost will understand what I mean.

 

[Maviarab]

Frankly, I was also annoyed at first by this way of storytelling. But in the old WiAB it was much more intense; To be honest, before going to the lake with girls, I didn’t even understand what this game was about, and how all these scenes that were shown to me were connected. The new WiAB is better in this sense. I think this style is a tool to keep the narrative vague, tp create a mystery that will keep the players' attention for a while and keep them guessing "what the fuck is going on" and that will be resolved towards the end.

In SG, in this sense, everything seems even more confusing to me; the entire first season only adds strange events without explaining their real meaning in the story, ambiguous phrases in dialogue, random facts about the main characters in casual gossips told between secondary characters. In general, it creates mystery and some handmade chaos in the narrative, like everything is not what it really seems. But at the same time, certain main storylines are still preserved, and are being developed quite straightforwardly.

Again, this style of storytelling is not for everyone and quite confusing and sometimes even annoying, but that's what this author's stories are like. Changing the narrative and redoing it seems a dead end to me, and I’m not sure that it will work out at all; it seems to me that the stories are built on mystery and ambiguity. Some parts of the story are deliberately left vague until the time comes to reveal them, and it's likely that new information will change the meaning of previously shown scenes. This is not a bug, it's a feature. Those who liked the TV series Lost will understand what I mean.

Or anything by Lynch.

 

[Quetzzz]

create a mystery that will keep the players' attention for a while and keep them guessing "what the fuck is going on" and that will be resolved towards the end.

Yeah, personally I think this is a narrative crutch. It would bother me less in a pure kinetic story because then the player is just along for the ride. But when there are choices to be made, it gets frustrating.

In SG, in this sense, everything seems even more confusing to me; the entire first season only adds strange events without explaining their real meaning in the story, ambiguous phrases in dialogue, random facts about the main characters in casual gossips told between secondary characters. In general, it creates mystery and some handmade chaos in the narrative, like everything is not what it really seems. But at the same time, certain main storylines are still preserved, and are being developed quite straightforwardly.

Played SG about half a year ago, and with all this talk about rework/remaster, I have no idea if my version is still "current". I liked SG more because it was easier to put myself in the MC's shoes. I didn't really feel overloaded with information either, though I started to dislike Nami because she (and the MC) were keeping a secret from the player about what happened at the cabin before Summer went away. I got the impression that Nami was the cause for Summer leaving (maybe she called the cops or something), and for such an important LI, this would be a massive skeleton in the closet.

--->8--- stories are built on mystery and ambiguity. Some parts of the story are deliberately left vague until the time comes to reveal them, and it's likely that new information will change the meaning of previously shown scenes. This is not a bug, it's a feature. Those who liked the TV series Lost will understand what I mean.

Yeah, this is what it'll come down to... Can the writer/storyteller pull it off or not. In STWA The Writer, there's a similar ambiguous event that just fell flat when it was revealed, while STWA Unbroken does this (arguably) even more, at least what's happening "in the now" adds more value than the artificial mystery takes away.

 

[yossa999]

Played SG about half a year ago, and with all this talk about rework/remaster, I have no idea if my version is still "current". I liked SG more because it was easier to put myself in the MC's shoes. I didn't really feel overloaded with information either, though I started to dislike Nami because she (and the MC) were keeping a secret from the player about what happened at the cabin before Summer went away. I got the impression that Nami was the cause for Summer leaving (maybe she called the cops or something), and for such an important LI, this would be a massive skeleton in the closet.

Damn reaction limit.

Spoiler: A semi-offtop about SG

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[sorco2003]

Damn reaction limit.

Spoiler: A semi-offtop about SG

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I found the spoiler funny, they have been talking about SG since the log and now you put "semi offtop about SG"....

I just want to add something seriously, reading the post you answer and what you answer: The amount of information hidden to the player in SG is as big as the one hidden in WIAB, just as the other user says, he likes SG better.

 

[Quetzzz]

I just want to add something seriously, reading the post you answer and what you answer: The amount of information hidden to the player in SG is as big as the one hidden in WIAB, just as the other user says, he likes SG better.

Yeah, I do... If I have to guess it's because we actually get to know what the MC is thinking and feeling. What happened with/to Summer is a bit of a mystery, but the MC is looking forward. Knowing why the MC is depressed/has ED is already a big difference from what we know about WiAB's protagonist. It's very difficult and frustrating for me to try to put myself in William's shoes because of this.

spoiler

Thanks for that! I was planning to get it on Steam and replay that version. I won't comment further on SG to not derail the thread.

 

[BobTheDuck]

Yeah, I do... If I have to guess it's because we actually get to know what the MC is thinking and feeling. What happened with/to Summer is a bit of a mystery, but the MC is looking forward. Knowing why the MC is depressed/has ED is already a big difference from what we know about WiAB's protagonist. It's very difficult and frustrating for me to try to put myself in William's shoes because of this.


Thanks for that! I was planning to get it on Steam and replay that version. I won't comment further on SG to not derail the thread.

It's hard to consider SG offtopic when it's a continuation of the same world, with high levels of crossovers. Anyway, regarding William's past, I think a couple of things come into play. The gigachad appearance is off-putting; I can't identify with that. Yet the longer we play the less that has to do with his insecurities. He left the family before gigachad status, so that is part of his coping mechanism. Maybe he bulked up in prison to stop getting beaten up? I think in some ways Ocean's chosen that appearance as a misdirection - people assume he's a meat head, and underestimate him. He also plays with that at times; his intuition about Donna, and the way he worked out things are going on at home (Helen being okay with Leia's businesses for example) show he is reading between the lines. Some of his asshole nature is simply to deflect. Some at least.

Second thing is that the gigachad powers won't actually solve any of his problems. Having a great physique and a superchadly johnson won't help him solve Helen's issues, probably will cause a lot of tension between Miru, Leia and Katie if he tries pulling the charms everywhere - infact I suspect the chadliness will be a liability. We can already see Emilio resenting Willi's attitude, saying it was enough to have one of them ie Leia. So I suspect the process of the game will involve peeling back all the masks people are wearing and finding out who they really are. Most of WIlliam's personality is the coping mechanisms he developed in the process of running away and avoid resopnsibility, so we'll see how well he can humble himself, or subvert the situations. We can already see how he's struggling to deal with consequences when he calls Daphne; I think the game will go more into that territory, where the choices aren't clear cut.

I kinda feel we'll get to see more of William's internal conflicts as the situations continue - he's just gotten back and the tensions will force a lot of internal responses. THe interesting thing will be what choices we have for confidants, and how that creates unequal power structures - because I think the power structures will play an important part, with William and Miru being the catalyst or wrecking ball.

Lastly, the nature of what happened in the past is likely to remain opaque, as the official roles in the official release will always be the canon. Leaving it ambigious means it is more open to interpretation, even though that is frustrating, it is what it is.

In context of being forced to make choices that we don't know (like the spicy or sweet burger) it is annoying, because there's no clue to what Katie likes. Having said that, Willi left as a teenager, so he might not know anything about how her tastes have changed, especially as he was dismissive of her the whole time. A choice written like "Risk the spicy sauce" or "Play it safe" would make more sense, and wouldn't break the immersion.

 

[yossa999]

I found the spoiler funny, they have been talking about SG since the log and now you put "semi offtop about SG"....

Thanks for that! I was planning to get it on Steam and replay that version. I won't comment further on SG to not derail the thread.

It's hard to consider SG offtopic when it's a continuation of the same world, with high levels of crossovers.

Yeah, I don't think mentioning SG here is actually off-topic and derails the thread, since both games are made by the same author, share the same fictional world, have many crossovers and topics outside of the games' plot, such as SG release on Steam are affecting both games. It's just that a lot of people here who follow WiAB don't like SG, so the easiest way to not annoy them too much is to leave it under a spoiler. You just scroll through a thread, see a spoiler marked "SG", say "fuck off" and move on to the next post without reading the spoiler.

 

[yossa999]

In context of being forced to make choices that we don't know (like the spicy or sweet burger) it is annoying, because there's no clue to what Katie likes.

I read this choice as the game trying to get players' opinions on Katie, how do they want her to be, is she sweet or spicy? And maybe this will influence her behavior in the future, like, if you want me to be sweet, then I'll be sweet.

 

[BobTheDuck]

I read this choice as the game trying to get players' opinions on Katie, how do they want her to be, is she sweet or spicy? And maybe this will influence her behavior in the future, like, if you want me to be sweet, then I'll be sweet.

That's a really nice take on it