VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [Ch. 3 Full] [Oceanlab]

[hermit_tr]

when is the update coming?

In September

Estimates based on:
-Ocean has done some renders of ch3.5.
-SG will be finished publishing on Steam by the end of the month(hopefully).
-6 months is enough time to complete half a ch.
everything is just my imagination

 

[yossa999]

In September

Estimates based on:
-Ocean has done some renders of ch3.5.
-SG will be finished publishing on Steam by the end of the month(hopefully).
-6 months is enough time to complete half a ch.
everything is just my imagination

 

[LHDLLB]

Interesting thought while doing a run through of WiaB looking for something: in WiaB Leia and Abigail suspect the religious group of being the cover (or the instigator) for a high profile organisation creating all the problems, to the point that Leia and Abigail say:

Spoiler: What they say

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Spoiler: About the religious group

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Anyway, we only have Kelly as the overt religious person (we'll assume the religious group refered to isn't Muslim). So what happened to them in WiaB, are they still around as a powerhouse in SG (obviously we won't know WiaB for many chapters yet, or even if it's true, but Donna is still central as she's a Revera). I wonder what sort of impact the Zanes will have on the organisation. If Ocean keeps to the old WiaB plot, the Revera on the first team is most likely Willi's child (because of Donna's pregnancy in the old WiaB), he basically helps her get away from the religious/power group. All we see (potentially) in SG of the power/religious group in SG is Kelly though.

Mad theories with no evidence:

THe Frohn's could have been the financiers of the group, and the Cyrus' part of the group. Nika and Nami might be under the Zane's (earring) wings because the Zane's were responsible for the crash. I have no proof, just wild musing. I do feel there will be some element of the ramifactions of what the Zanes had to do to stabilise the situation to remove the threats to them.

Anway, just bit of cross-game theory, and what things I'm looking out for in the dialogue at the moment.

the addition of this third party has me scratching my head, up until now my belief was that Krayt was the main enemy but this dialogue between Abigail and Leia tells me that whatever this Church Thing/Cult is ,is way more dangerus.

When we add that to Dana conversation outside the bar about her father and brother, leads me to think that her family is heavily envolve in this as well.

My wild theorie is: We know that there is 3 antagonist powers to Leia/Zanes; Asavera, Kryat and The Cult ( they probably are not a cult but I think this simplified and is cooler ) ZPR surges as a respond to this 3 powers.

Kelly may be a niece of Danna and I have no clue how the Frohn's and the Cyrus enters this game, the former given the little we see in the old chapter 6 does not appear to me the kinda of people that get evolved with this sort of thing, the Cyrus... Who are they ? We know more about Summer than we do about the Cyrus if they really exist

 

[BobTheDuck]

Fall in love with eyes
View attachment 3431758

the addition of this third party has me scratching my head, up until now my belief was that Krayt was the main enemy but this dialogue between Abigail and Leia tells me that whatever this Church Thing/Cult is ,is way more dangerus.

When we add that to Dana conversation outside the bar about her father and brother, leads me to think that her family is heavily envolve in this as well.

My wild theorie is: We know that there is 3 antagonist powers to Leia/Zanes; Asavera, Kryat and The Cult ( they probably are not a cult but I think this simplified and is cooler ) ZPR surges as a respond to this 3 powers.

Kelly may be a niece of Danna and I have no clue how the Frohn's and the Cyrus enters this game, the former given the little we see in the old chapter 6 does not appear to me the kinda of people that get evolved with this sort of thing, the Cyrus... Who are they ? We know more about Summer than we do about the Cyrus if they really exist

Previous version also had a mysterious third party, now we have at least 5 (Asavera, Krayt, Zane's (including Uncle Joe's bikers), Police, Organisation). I'll refer to it as the Organisation, as I am assuming the cult side is more a cover to get brainless agents that do as they're instructed, as well as have a nation wide network across a broad section of society. So yes a cult, but without a religious purpose.

Some things we (mostly) know followed by expanded speculation:
- Donna is a counsellor at the college, where Kat is feeling bad vibes from a professor. Most likely Kat would have gone to the counsellor and shared her worries - which suggests that whoever Donna is working with is also working with the professor in the college for some purpose (previous version had weird dealings in the college and Willi was going to be planted undercover by ABigail as a coach in the college, that's roughly at the end of the old version before being reworked)
- Donna is working for someone, and keeping her eyes on Willi. We don't know her motivations in this version. Krayt don't care to be that subtle and the Zane's have no need to do that. Asavera might, as any leverage is useful. The police already have Mon and Abigail keeping tabs on the Zane's, no need to waste more resources. So most likely Donna is involved with the organisation or Asavera.
- Donna is a presumably still a Revera - the name doesn't appear in this version of game, only the old one. She might actually marry into the Revera family, we don't know how that all works.
- Donna is likely to end up on Willi's side, whether by circumstance or choice if she's a Revera still, as ZPR is a thing.
- Previous Donna could get pregnant by Willi, so the Revera on the first team in SG is most likely also a Zane, and probably the reason why Z and R are in cahoots.
- Previous Donna was frightened of becoming useless to the Organisation (which included corrupt police/justice dept people) when she became pregnant, suggesting that the Organisation had a very strict control on their operatives.

- Dana's father and brother are most likely involved, which means that they have leverage on Dana's cases. Important to keep in mind for the future (ie if Willi or Leia need a lawyer, there could be complications with Dana, pressure put on her)

- The Frohn's were into investment and banking and were boring people in the old version. Leia says that, so likely they didn't invest in her businesses. They could be bankrolling the organisation, or managing assets for the organisation. Boring people could mean (from Leia) people who are against her businesses for moral reasons ie religious. There's my tenuous link.

- We might not see any connections to the old version from this point on ie the prison scene might happen later, or might not at all. Warden Harbour might not be involved. Willi might not get Donna pregnant.

- Pure speculation: the Organisation either causes car crashes like they potentially caused Helen's situation to tie up/silence loose ends (such as investment bankers that know too much and the Cyrus's) or potentially the Cyrus's are important in the organisation (Or the Cyrus's don't exist by that name. Easy to mask names when you have corrupt officials on your side).

- Summer's parents could appear as part of the organisation, and that might explain or hint at why the events in SG are the fallout of all this.

My basic assumption is that the outcome of WiaB is the setup for SG, and things like too many car crashes are unlikely to be because Wollust has a higher than average incidence of road head. Also, I don't think that Summer or the Cyrus' (if that's not a cover name) will be only peripheral to WiaB - otherwise Katie in the book club makes no sense. Katie and Leia both go to the book club btw, we just haven't seen Leia yet. Further with the thought about Summer's family and the Cyrus's potentially being seen in WiaB - they could simply be like the Frohn's and relatively side characters, but still be important to the plot, just like Ben romanced Dana before finding Mon - Ben's unlikely to get a lot of screen time, but his dramas will affect Willi - as Willi and Mon are forced into contact more and more, Ben will probably start doing things, maybe get Krayt involved to get Willi away from Mon? Who knows?

Anyway, I'm finding this avenue for speculation to raise quite a lot of angles to consider even if my ideas are wrong.

 

[LHDLLB]

Alright you gave me a lot to think about.

Previous version also had a mysterious third party, now we have at least 5 (Asavera, Krayt, Zane's (including Uncle Joe's bikers), Police, Organisation). I'll refer to it as the Organisation, as I am assuming the cult side is more a cover to get brainless agents that do as they're instructed, as well as have a nation wide network across a broad section of society. So yes a cult, but without a religious purpose.

I don't have a good memory of the events of the old version, thought was only the Kryat and the Zanes. I tend to agree with you that this 3 powers that I mentioned is branches of a greater one, Kryat is a supplier of drugs - as is the bikers gang to Leia- and the Asavera serves as the distributor and washes the money - that also is Leia business - the Church thing in my head is the one who coordinate this other two to gain political influence, so Leia represents a threat to this Organisation as she is taken market.

- Donna is a counsellor at the college, where Kat is feeling bad vibes from a professor. Most likely Kat would have gone to the counsellor and shared her worries - which suggests that whoever Donna is working with is also working with the professor in the college for some purpose (previous version had weird dealings in the college and Willi was going to be planted undercover by ABigail as a coach in the college, that's roughly at the end of the old version before being reworked)
- Donna is working for someone, and keeping her eyes on Willi. We don't know her motivations in this version. Krayt don't care to be that subtle and the Zane's have no need to do that. Asavera might, as any leverage is useful. The police already have Mon and Abigail keeping tabs on the Zane's, no need to waste more resources. So most likely Donna is involved with the organisation or Asavera.
- Donna is a presumably still a Revera - the name doesn't appear in this version of game, only the old one. She might actually marry into the Revera family, we don't know how that all works.
- Donna is likely to end up on Willi's side, whether by circumstance or choice if she's a Revera still, as ZPR is a thing.
- Previous Donna could get pregnant by Willi, so the Revera on the first team in SG is most likely also a Zane, and probably the reason why Z and R are in cahoots.
- Previous Donna was frightened of becoming useless to the Organisation (which included corrupt police/justice dept people) when she became pregnant, suggesting that the Organisation had a very strict control on their operatives

I don't know what to think of the reworked Donna, you make some good speculations with what we know of the old version and with the rework, for me still I don't know what to take of it. I agree that given that ZPR exist in SG not only Donna but the whole family will at some point work with the Zanes, now how she and her family will go to - if this happens in this version - trying to frame William with rape to found a college together I don't know, I tend to think that in this version the 3 families will be collaborating much earlier.

- Dana's father and brother are most likely involved, which means that they have leverage on Dana's cases. Important to keep in mind for the future (ie if Willi or Leia need a lawyer, there could be complications with Dana, pressure put on her)

- The Frohn's were into investment and banking and were boring people in the old version. Leia says that, so likely they didn't invest in her businesses. They could be bankrolling the organisation, or managing assets for the organisation. Boring people could mean (from Leia) people who are against her businesses for moral reasons ie religious. There's my tenuous link.

- We might not see any connections to the old version from this point on ie the prison scene might happen later, or might not at all. Warden Harbour might not be involved. Willi might not get Donna pregnant.

Still with Dana, do you think that she represents Leia ? At the bar when they are talking there is a dialogue that makes me think so but I am not sure, when Katie, William, Mon and Dana are talking about some Jorge that seems that Leia ordered killed.

It makes sense, in the pratical sense, but I don't know, for the story I fell that it has more weight if they are innocent and die as a result of some wrong doings of William and the Zanes.

Harbour was the villain of the old verion ? I think that it will happen but more to the middle of the story, the prison at least the Donna thing ... I don't know, my bet is that it is cut.

- Pure speculation: the Organisation either causes car crashes like they potentially caused Helen's situation to tie up/silence loose ends (such as investment bankers that know too much and the Cyrus's) or potentially the Cyrus's are important in the organisation (Or the Cyrus's don't exist by that name. Easy to mask names when you have corrupt officials on your side).

- Summer's parents could appear as part of the organisation, and that might explain or hint at why the events in SG are the fallout of all this.

My basic assumption is that the outcome of WiaB is the setup for SG, and things like too many car crashes are unlikely to be because Wollust has a higher than average incidence of road head. Also, I don't think that Summer or the Cyrus' (if that's not a cover name) will be only peripheral to WiaB - otherwise Katie in the book club makes no sense. Katie and Leia both go to the book club btw, we just haven't seen Leia yet. Further with the thought about Summer's family and the Cyrus's potentially being seen in WiaB - they could simply be like the Frohn's and relatively side characters, but still be important to the plot, just like Ben romanced Dana before finding Mon - Ben's unlikely to get a lot of screen time, but his dramas will affect Willi - as Willi and Mon are forced into contact more and more, Ben will probably start doing things, maybe get Krayt involved to get Willi away from Mon? Who knows?

Would be surprised if they are not behind all car crashes in Wollust. Now this is fun speculation, how WiAB and SG will intertwine, the problem is that is like trying to solve a puzzle with only 10% of the pieces. I think that the community tends to focus much in Nika, Nami and the Cyrus, but Summer disappearance may be the result the of mob war that seems to me unleashed by the event in WiAB, we know very little of Summer she may have been killed, kidnapped or worse as retaliation for the final events of WiAB, now why and who did it ... We need to know more to answer that. Now I am 50/50 about how much of SG is in WiAB, Nojiko at least has to make a appearance and going with your theory - that I quite like - Summers parent too, I tend to think that the Cyrus does not exist but I like your take on it, they are not the focus of the story but their action greatly impact it; but I don't expect Bellas family, the Cerilas or Charlie to be making appearance in WIAB.

 

[BobTheDuck]

Alright you gave me a lot to think about.



I don't have a good memory of the events of the old version, thought was only the Kryat and the Zanes. I tend to agree with you that this 3 powers that I mentioned is branches of a greater one, Kryat is a supplier of drugs - as is the bikers gang to Leia- and the Asavera serves as the distributor and washes the money - that also is Leia business - the Church thing in my head is the one who coordinate this other two to gain political influence, so Leia represents a threat to this Organisation as she is taken market.



I don't know what to think of the reworked Donna, you make some good speculations with what we know of the old version and with the rework, for me still I don't know what to take of it. I agree that given that ZPR exist in SG not only Donna but the whole family will at some point work with the Zanes, now how she and her family will go to - if this happens in this version - trying to frame William with rape to found a college together I don't know, I tend to think that in this version the 3 families will be collaborating much earlier.



Still with Dana, do you think that she represents Leia ? At the bar when they are talking there is a dialogue that makes me think so but I am not sure, when Katie, William, Mon and Dana are talking about some Jorge that seems that Leia ordered killed.

It makes sense, in the pratical sense, but I don't know, for the story I fell that it has more weight if they are innocent and die as a result of some wrong doings of William and the Zanes.

Amber has potentially already been 'seen' when Willi stops at the petrol station, she might make a further appearance, but maybe she'll be more like an easter egg, she'll be dancing in the clubs or something, just peripheral. Her friend might also be there, again more for continuity.

It's certainly getting interesting

Harbour was the villain of the old verion ? I think that it will happen but more to the middle of the story, the prison at least the Donna thing ... I don't know, my bet is that it is cut.



Would be surprised if they are not behind all car crashes in Wollust. Now this is fun speculation, how WiAB and SG will intertwine, the problem is that is like trying to solve a puzzle with only 10% of the pieces. I think that the community tends to focus much in Nika, Nami and the Cyrus, but Summer disappearance may be the result the of mob war that seems to me unleashed by the event in WiAB, we know very little of Summer she may have been killed, kidnapped or worse as retaliation for the final events of WiAB, now why and who did it ... We need to know more to answer that. Now I am 50/50 about how much of SG is in WiAB, Nojiko at least has to make a appearance and going with your theory - that I quite like - Summers parent too, I tend to think that the Cyrus does not exist but I like your take on it, they are not the focus of the story but their action greatly impact it; but I don't expect Bellas family, the Cerilas or Charlie to be making appearance in WIAB.

THe previous version had good and bad cops, Krayt, Miru's ninja clan, the bikers, the Zane's and the Organisation, who was working with the bad cops. The bikers, Zanes and good cops were mostly collaborating. Miru's clan was unknown as to their goals. It's safe to say thes power structures/relationships are irrelevant now, only the outlines remain. Asavera is Leia's competition, not affiliated with Krayt or Leia, but in competition - that why Willi sent Asavera's 'regards' to Krayt by the knocked out member. We have no idea what Asavera does yet, other than a nightclub owner that is also watched closely by the police. Asavera might be on the pimp side manipulated by the organisation to antagonise Leia, who knows? I think the Church/Organisation is rather a political thing that uses the church structure for cover, so yes, I agree with you there, it's most likely coordinating Krayt and Asavera because Leia is in there way.

In the old version Abigail asks Willi why Leia called him, as it had been a year since Helen's accident - the implication was Leia called him because she can't handle what is going on despite her appearance of confidence. That fits with my theories about Helen having gotten used to not speaking, it's been a while.

In the old version, Donna seduced him to blame him for rape, but then fell pregnant with his child. The organisation would have terminated her, she hides the prenancy test to avoid being found out so they think she is still useful. I think she ends up with the Zanes as the enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of vibe. They know from then they can trust her because she's out of options. We also don't know if Donna is married, ends up keeping her surname or what. She might not be Revera yet in this version.

I think Mon was joking about Dana preparing a defense - Mon said Leia is way too clean, so the police don't have anything they can use right now, so no need for a lawyer yet. Jorge disappeared after getting feisty at Leia's club, but no one knows where he is. Maybe He will find Summer Also notice that Emilio has tatts in SG but seems pretty clean in WiaB - maybe he spends time in prison too?

Harbour was a villian, but not necessarily the main one. There's a beach house or something with an unseen man who seems to be the main villian. THe girl or Donna (depending on whether you let yourself be seduced or are set up by the blonde) seem to report directly to him.

All the stuff from the old version is not canon anymore, but it's still a good way to second guess the way Ocean plots and thinks.

 

[Turret]

Hi everyone!

Many interesting thoughts about what will happen next in WIAB over the last pages! Here are some comments from me.

Willi/Leia meeting: I agree it is unlikely they will have sex then, but I also would not be surprised if they do! It could be a wang- brushed-against-flow-event and is possible, just look at it.
It became quite clear over the first 3 chapters that Willi and Leia stood at the brink of sleeping together when he (had to) fled Wollust. It is also insinuated that Willi either wanted to return earlier or return and take Leia with him, but him being innocent tossed behind swedish curtains threw the wrench in. In prison he then met Miru, who helped him greatly to cope with being innocent but still in the gaol. It is clear that Leia never knew about Willi being in prison and him sending her the carved heart opens up their private meeting.
I think it likely that during their talk a lot surpressed feelings and past events will bubble to the surface and the two finally consumating their relationship could be the end result. But no matter if Leia and Willi sleep togather at this meeting or not, this event will lay the foundation for Willi/Leia relationship, Willi/Leia/Miru relationship, Leia NTR, Miru NTR, neutral relationship and Willi cheating, depending on our choices made before and during the coming meeting.

Gefritzel: I consider it near certain that Gefritzel will take a shine to Leia (and vice versa) and the two having no problems with each other.

Helen: I theorise that in several paths we will have a really bad surprise with her. There is something off with her and it is not her trauma induced muteness in the first place. Many tiny details, among them Helen spying on Willi/Leia talking together or the way she observes the others too.

Zoey: Our residential free Spirit will likely turn out to be a stabilising factor on more than one front. e.g. Stefan´s situation in SG is likely bader since Zoey married either Kati, Willi or someone else and left to live with them.

 

[Doomyk]

A small observation: When a certain *Anastasia* was mentioned in the last chapter, Dana made an unpleasant expression on her face. It’s interesting what kind of history they have there.

Zoey: Our residential free Spirit will likely turn out to be a stabilising factor on more than one front. e.g. Stefan´s situation in SG is likely bader since Zoey married either Kati, Willi or someone else and left to live with them.

To be honest, we don't really know what exactly the Holgerson family reall business. I wouldn't be surprised if their business is just a front for crime. Stefan clearly knows the Zanes closely. And in general, Zoey’s story has a slight touch of similarity with Willy. The prodigal daughter returned to the family business.

 

[Turret]

A small observation: When a certain *Anastasia* was mentioned in the last chapter, Dana made an unpleasant expression on her face. It’s interesting what kind of history they have there.

To be honest, we don't really know what exactly the Holgerson family reall business. I wouldn't be surprised if their business is just a front for crime. Stefan clearly knows the Zanes closely. And in general, Zoey’s story has a slight touch of similarity with Willy. The prodigal daughter returned to the family business.

I agree, we do not know the specifics of the Holgerson family business, but going by what we learned in the first few chapters, they are in the wood and carpentry business and Zoey and Stefan´s parents are too old-fashioned at work, no or just few computers and such. So the siblings try to carefully bring their parents to go into retirement. It does not strike me as a front for crime, but it is possible.
Still I wait until a Nils Holgerson pops up.

 

[BobTheDuck]

I agree, we do not know the specifics of the Holgerson family business, but going by what we learned in the first few chapters, they are in the wood and carpentry business and Zoey and Stefan´s parents are too old-fashioned at work, no or just few computers and such. So the siblings try to carefully bring their parents to go into retirement. It does not strike me as a front for crime, but it is possible.
Still I wait until a Nils Holgerson pops up.

I thought the Holgerson business was a paper company:

st "Grandpa owned a paper company combined with a small newspaper."

This would make sense about digitising being a problem, a modern newspaper needs to be digitised in a world where everyone is using mobiles.

So I wondered if the reporter in SG was employed by Stefan, which would make Stefan's comments about not knowing any 'Cyrus' be seen in a different light - ie he can't recall any newspaper worthy Cyrus, and he's wondering if Nika is trying to insinuate himself under a fake name and is already suspicious about him - he'll then investigate and wants to meet with Bella to warn her about Nika's past.

Something I thought about regarding Helen - in the previous version the accident was a year ago, this version we can only assume it's long enough ago for the case to have been shelved by the feds, and for everyone to interract as though this is how Helen has been the whole time. No one is awkward with her other than Willi, because he remembers how he used to interact with her more vividly, and everyone else is used to her being mute, guessing her mannerisms.

Anyway, it reminds me of when someone has a stroke and loses some of their speech in extreme cases. THey are otherwise functional, byt their brain can't remember how to speak. So what circumstances could reliably induce a stroke? What the goal to silence Helen or, was her survival not anticipated? Or was the goal to get Willi back, because someone wants to revenge themselves on Willi? I'm sure some of the other people (like Ben, Dana's brother etc) have less fond memories of Willi, and there was a bunch of people WIlli and Leia did unlawful things to (as Willi mentions to Gina).

 

[Maviarab]

I thought the Holgerson business was a paper company:

st "Grandpa owned a paper company combined with a small newspaper."

This would make sense about digitising being a problem, a modern newspaper needs to be digitised in a world where everyone is using mobiles.

So I wondered if the reporter in SG was employed by Stefan, which would make Stefan's comments about not knowing any 'Cyrus' be seen in a different light - ie he can't recall any newspaper worthy Cyrus, and he's wondering if Nika is trying to insinuate himself under a fake name and is already suspicious about him - he'll then investigate and wants to meet with Bella to warn her about Nika's past.

Something I thought about regarding Helen - in the previous version the accident was a year ago, this version we can only assume it's long enough ago for the case to have been shelved by the feds, and for everyone to interract as though this is how Helen has been the whole time. No one is awkward with her other than Willi, because he remembers how he used to interact with her more vividly, and everyone else is used to her being mute, guessing her mannerisms.

Anyway, it reminds me of when someone has a stroke and loses some of their speech in extreme cases. THey are otherwise functional, byt their brain can't remember how to speak. So what circumstances could reliably induce a stroke? What the goal to silence Helen or, was her survival not anticipated? Or was the goal to get Willi back, because someone wants to revenge themselves on Willi? I'm sure some of the other people (like Ben, Dana's brother etc) have less fond memories of Willi, and there was a bunch of people WIlli and Leia did unlawful things to (as Willi mentions to Gina).

Lot of unknowns and mysteries there Bob...and I'm sure they will all get unravalled very...very...slowly as the story progresses to keep us hooked.

 

[Turret]

I thought the Holgerson business was a paper company:

st "Grandpa owned a paper company combined with a small newspaper."

This would make sense about digitising being a problem, a modern newspaper needs to be digitised in a world where everyone is using mobiles.

Right, I misremebered that part due to a novel I am reading currently. But I knew that the Holgerson business looks not very crimelike as was put forward earlier.

 

[Maviarab]

Right, I misremebered that part due to a novel I am reading currently. But I knew that the Holgerson business looks not very crimelike as was put forward earlier.

Unless they start 'printing' other things.....

 

[LHDLLB]

THe previous version had good and bad cops, Krayt, Miru's ninja clan, the bikers, the Zane's and the Organisation, who was working with the bad cops. The bikers, Zanes and good cops were mostly collaborating. Miru's clan was unknown as to their goals. It's safe to say thes power structures/relationships are irrelevant now, only the outlines remain. Asavera is Leia's competition, not affiliated with Krayt or Leia, but in competition - that why Willi sent Asavera's 'regards' to Krayt by the knocked out member. We have no idea what Asavera does yet, other than a nightclub owner that is also watched closely by the police. Asavera might be on the pimp side manipulated by the organisation to antagonise Leia, who knows? I think the Church/Organisation is rather a political thing that uses the church structure for cover, so yes, I agree with you there, it's most likely coordinating Krayt and Asavera because Leia is in there way.

In the old version Abigail asks Willi why Leia called him, as it had been a year since Helen's accident - the implication was Leia called him because she can't handle what is going on despite her appearance of confidence. That fits with my theories about Helen having gotten used to not speaking, it's been a while.

In the old version, Donna seduced him to blame him for rape, but then fell pregnant with his child. The organisation would have terminated her, she hides the prenancy test to avoid being found out so they think she is still useful. I think she ends up with the Zanes as the enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of vibe. They know from then they can trust her because she's out of options. We also don't know if Donna is married, ends up keeping her surname or what. She might not be Revera yet in this version.

I think Mon was joking about Dana preparing a defense - Mon said Leia is way too clean, so the police don't have anything they can use right now, so no need for a lawyer yet. Jorge disappeared after getting feisty at Leia's club, but no one knows where he is. Maybe He will find Summer Also notice that Emilio has tatts in SG but seems pretty clean in WiaB - maybe he spends time in prison too?

Harbour was a villian, but not necessarily the main one. There's a beach house or something with an unseen man who seems to be the main villian. THe girl or Donna (depending on whether you let yourself be seduced or are set up by the blonde) seem to report directly to him.

All the stuff from the old version is not canon anymore, but it's still a good way to second guess the way Ocean plots and thinks.

I forgot about the William sending the Kryat member "Asavera regards", but if we agree that Asavera and the Kryat are branches of the Organization this may backfire in William, either this 3 powers works together or is a winners takes all situation and is everyone at everybody throats, with come to think of it is what Ch3 implies, nonetheless is still my theory that ZPR is a response to this Organization. We do know litlle about what exacly Asavera does, but given that they seems a direct competidor to Leia may be safe to assume that they works in similar markets, drugs, prostitution and money laundry. Do you think that Miru's Clan will pop up in this version ? I am on the fence about it, but I agree the outlines of the relationship still is the same.

The time of the accident Helen accident is a strange one, it seems that the family has had time to adjust to her condition but the story is not that clear about when it happened, I find that quite odd. That would explain how Donna switches sides, the things is: Will she get pregnant in this version ? I don't know, old one was gonna get a pregnancy system and there was the Donna situation but seems odd to me now; can you imagine Miru finding out that William put bibi in some randoms belly before her ?

Yeah was on the fence on that on, sometimes I read Mon line as a joke sometimes other as not as much. Nice catch on the Emilio have not notice this, is a interest ideia, if he did go to prison has he in SG resentment over the Zanes ? or is he still loyal to Leia ?

Jesus I remember even less of the old version than I thought about, don't remember at all of this scene

Gefritzel: I consider it near certain that Gefritzel will take a shine to Leia (and vice versa) and the two having no problems with each other.

I find that William having a snake as a pet, who has a antagonist relationship with Miru and seems jealously of William such a funny foreshadow to Leia's relationship, I quite agree with you on this one.

Anyway, it reminds me of when someone has a stroke and loses some of their speech in extreme cases. THey are otherwise functional, byt their brain can't remember how to speak. So what circumstances could reliably induce a stroke? What the goal to silence Helen or, was her survival not anticipated? Or was the goal to get Willi back, because someone wants to revenge themselves on Willi? I'm sure some of the other people (like Ben, Dana's brother etc) have less fond memories of Willi, and there was a bunch of people WIlli and Leia did unlawful things to (as Willi mentions to Gina).

I mean is it even possible to lose only your speech ? People who had stoke tends to loose more than just speech, mobility, sight sometimes and even brain function, Helen seems pretty normal to me outside of not speaking, I wanna say that is a car accident that leaves her mute but I am not sure, the story makes clear what kinda accident she had ? My point is that I always found Helen condition quite strange, if we go with you are saying she has the accident some time ago, if the goal was to kill her would not have others attended by now ? if is bring William back to Wollust to take revenge on him... it happens but seems much complicate, seems the person would have to know more than they could. Personally, I always thought that Helen can talk but she chooses not to for her own reasons, the ideia of a accident leaving you mute seems not possible to me, at least I don't know how it can be.

 

[Maviarab]

The time of the accident Helen accident is a strange one, it seems that the family has had time to adjust to her condition but the story is not that clear about when it happened, I find that quite odd.

Given they have had time to adjust, especially given the 'police' have closed the case because the feds have taken over...I think we can safely safe it's months...not weeks...

if we agree that Asavera and the Kryat are branches of the Organization this may backfire in William, either this 3 powers works together or is a winners takes all situation and is everyone at everybody throats

I think the message was intended to cause chaos...while Asavera and the Krayts are infighting/at each others throats, Willi can go about his business without them hassling him etc...he specifically wrote that and used that name to start a war between Asavera and Krayts.

I don't know, old one was gonna get a pregnancy system and there was the Donna situation but seems odd to me now; can you imagine Miru finding out that William put bibi in some randoms belly before her ?

Well in the old version, it was a 50/50 chance system with Donna. However, it was this decision to sleep with her (and Katie telling Miru) that started Muru's war with Katie and Miru cheating on you in return.

I mean is it even possible to lose only your speech ? People who had stoke tends to loose more than just speech, mobility, sight sometimes and even brain function, Helen seems pretty normal to me outside of not speaking, I wanna say that is a car accident that leaves her mute but I am not sure, the story makes clear what kinda accident she had

I think she is 'choosing' not to talk....

 

[Doomyk]

Anyway, it reminds me of when someone has a stroke and loses some of their speech in extreme cases. THey are otherwise functional, byt their brain can't remember how to speak. So what circumstances could reliably induce a stroke? What the goal to silence Helen or, was her survival not anticipated?

It’s too early to judge, there’s too little information. But with each new update i have a growing sense of anxiety about Helen. Let's just say, there is, there is just a possibility that her silence is a way to attract attention. Hysterical mutism. There were hints that she loves to be the center of attention. That's why I previously mentioned the possibility that Helen herself planted the spiders. Also, don't forget whose children Katie and Leia are. What makes us think that Helen can't be just as dark and vicious inside? If Leia is a princess, then who is the queen of history then?
In addition, another interesting point. Helen personally taught Wilm not to be jealous. We are used to the fact that in stories about emotional incest, mothers are terribly jealous, ready to kill their daughters-in-law. But if you remove jealousy, then there will be no surprise why Helen sincerely greeted Mira. This is all leading to the fact that Helen, even in the past, could have loved William not with the usual maternal love. And perhaps even then she was preparing him as a lover. In addition, there is a small probability that it was Helen who was the love that Katie found out about. It would explain why William fled in fear, afraid of destroying his family. It would explain why William could unconsciously be so attracted to Helen, and she herself be so calm to his advances. He simply blocked out the memories.
PS: There was a scene in the old Wiab when William kissed Scarlet in front of Dylan. Then Dylan told Scarlet never to do that, otherwise Helen would never forgive her. Scarlet then responded in horror *Did you know that?*. A bit of a hazy scene, I used to I thought it was about Leia. But now I rethought that scene. What if Dylan was talking about Helen?

 

[LHDLLB]

Given they have had time to adjust, especially given the 'police' have closed the case because the feds have taken over...I think we can safely safe it's months...not weeks...


I think the message was intended to cause chaos...while Asavera and the Krayts are infighting/at each others throats, Willi can go about his business without them hassling him etc...he specifically wrote that and used that name to start a war between Asavera and Krayts.


Well in the old version, it was a 50/50 chance system with Donna. However, it was this decision to sleep with her (and Katie telling Miru) that started Muru's war with Katie and Miru cheating on you in return.


I think she is 'choosing' not to talk....

Yeah, I tend to think weeks after the case was close by the police is when Leia calls William and the accident is at least some months old, but Ocean not disclosing this information seems a bit odd to me. Not because is super important but because it helps understand the characters a bit more.

It seems that way to me too, but if Asavera and the Kryat are arms controlled by the Church Organization, William actions may not harbor the result that he expects.

When I played old version I did not get this scene with Donna, so I did not know about that. But I am curius to see how the NTR path o this Miru will starts.

I am under the same impression, Helen is choosing not to talk

It’s too early to judge, there’s too little information. But with each new update i have a growing sense of anxiety about Helen. Let's just say, there is, there is just a possibility that her silence is a way to attract attention. Hysterical mutism. There were hints that she loves to be the center of attention. That's why I previously mentioned the possibility that Helen herself planted the spiders. Also, don't forget whose children Katie and Leia are. What makes us think that Helen can't be just as dark and vicious inside? If Leia is a princess, then who is the queen of history then?
In addition, another interesting point. Helen personally taught Wilm not to be jealous. We are used to the fact that in stories about emotional incest, mothers are terribly jealous, ready to kill their daughters-in-law. But if you remove jealousy, then there will be no surprise why Helen sincerely greeted Mira. This is all leading to the fact that Helen, even in the past, could have loved William not with the usual maternal love. And perhaps even then she was preparing him as a lover. In addition, there is a small probability that it was Helen who was the love that Katie found out about. It would explain why William fled in fear, afraid of destroying his family. It would explain why William could unconsciously be so attracted to Helen, and she herself be so calm to his advances. He simply blocked out the memories.
PS: There was a scene in the old Wiab when William kissed Scarlet in front of Dylan. Then Dylan told Scarlet never to do that, otherwise Helen would never forgive her. Scarlet then responded in horror *Did you know that?*. A bit of a hazy scene, I used to I thought it was about Leia. But now I rethought that scene. What if Dylan was talking about Helen?

I am not much sure about Helen grooming young William, is not impossible the Zanes are a weird bunch, but don't quite sits right with me, Helen and Dylan seems to have had a open relationship at some point, the lack jealousy may just be who she is. That said, I like your take that Helen is trying to get attention and the mutism is a way to get that, Leia calls her a drama queen an insofar it has worked wonderfully, her prodigy son has returned and the family is now united for better or worse.

 

[Maviarab]

When I played old version I did not get this scene with Donna, so I did not know about that. But I am curius to see how the NTR path o this Miru will starts.

In the old version, as said, sleeping with her results in a 50/50 chance.

However, not sleeping with her gets her punished and chastised whe she gets back to 'wherever she goes back to' (and she really does not seem to want to upset them)...sleeping with Willi gains her favor. It seems very much that she was under control/ a slave almost. I may be misremembering exactly, sure BobTheDuck can fill in my gaps in memory.

But yes, in terms of Miru cheating, this was the catalyst if you not on good terms with Katie as she tells her (aside from completely ignoring Miru which was a diff path, where she had the opportunity to sleep with your cousin or Dylan...though it seems the Dylan route is now potentially on the sharing path).

How much of that is going to be reintroduced is anyone's guess right now.

 

[BobTheDuck]

I forgot about the William sending the Kryat member "Asavera regards", but if we agree that Asavera and the Kryat are branches of the Organization this may backfire in William, either this 3 powers works together or is a winners takes all situation and is everyone at everybody throats, with come to think of it is what Ch3 implies, nonetheless is still my theory that ZPR is a response to this Organization. We do know litlle about what exacly Asavera does, but given that they seems a direct competidor to Leia may be safe to assume that they works in similar markets, drugs, prostitution and money laundry. Do you think that Miru's Clan will pop up in this version ? I am on the fence about it, but I agree the outlines of the relationship still is the same.

The time of the accident Helen accident is a strange one, it seems that the family has had time to adjust to her condition but the story is not that clear about when it happened, I find that quite odd. That would explain how Donna switches sides, the things is: Will she get pregnant in this version ? I don't know, old one was gonna get a pregnancy system and there was the Donna situation but seems odd to me now; can you imagine Miru finding out that William put bibi in some randoms belly before her ?

Yeah was on the fence on that on, sometimes I read Mon line as a joke sometimes other as not as much. Nice catch on the Emilio have not notice this, is a interest ideia, if he did go to prison has he in SG resentment over the Zanes ? or is he still loyal to Leia ?

Jesus I remember even less of the old version than I thought about, don't remember at all of this scene



I find that William having a snake as a pet, who has a antagonist relationship with Miru and seems jealously of William such a funny foreshadow to Leia's relationship, I quite agree with you on this one.



I mean is it even possible to lose only your speech ? People who had stoke tends to loose more than just speech, mobility, sight sometimes and even brain function, Helen seems pretty normal to me outside of not speaking, I wanna say that is a car accident that leaves her mute but I am not sure, the story makes clear what kinda accident she had ? My point is that I always found Helen condition quite strange, if we go with you are saying she has the accident some time ago, if the goal was to kill her would not have others attended by now ? if is bring William back to Wollust to take revenge on him... it happens but seems much complicate, seems the person would have to know more than they could. Personally, I always thought that Helen can talk but she chooses not to for her own reasons, the ideia of a accident leaving you mute seems not possible to me, at least I don't know how it can be.

About the Mon line with Dana as Leia's defense, it is a pointed joke I think. My guess is that Mon has kept the association with the Zanes through friendship with Katie, who is clean in a criminal sense, not involved, and her superiors are fine having Mon as a close asset if they need info. I don't think Mon is playing detective, it seems she's more regular duty.

About Emilio, I think we see him as a freelancer in SG, the way he talks to Desiree implies that he's a free agent. Maybe he took the fall? I'm sure we'll find out. He also uses more eyeliner in SG As a freelancer, my guess is that Leia doesn't need his services anymore - maybe her nightclub has been sanitised, or she's sold it, or traded it? These kind of questions we can't find out, only guess.

About speech, one friend's dad had a stroke, and couldn't tell his daughter he loved her, she was telling me how some words were just lost to him, and he'd be in tears trying to speak, knowing what he wanted to say, but not knowing how to say it. My mum had a small stroke last year, similar thing where it's like there is a mental block. My understanding is that whatever part of the brain is affected just goes, and you lose that ability/memory. If the area affected is motor skills, you might become clumsier, unable to hold a spoon etc until your brain relearns and remaps. In the case of language, my mum chooses the wrong words because some words are just gone from her mind. So it's possible someone can lose the ability to talk (although improbable without further wide spread problems). Obviously these kind of problems are when the stoke is mild.

In the old version, as said, sleeping with her results in a 50/50 chance.

However, not sleeping with her gets her punished and chastised whe she gets back to 'wherever she goes back to' (and she really does not seem to want to upset them)...sleeping with Willi gains her favor. It seems very much that she was under control/ a slave almost. I may be misremembering exactly, sure BobTheDuck can fill in my gaps in memory.

But yes, in terms of Miru cheating, this was the catalyst if you not on good terms with Katie as she tells her (aside from completely ignoring Miru which was a diff path, where she had the opportunity to sleep with your cousin or Dylan...though it seems the Dylan route is now potentially on the sharing path).

How much of that is going to be reintroduced is anyone's guess right now.

I didn't play those paths initially - those were not my natural choices, so I never knew until I started reading the script I don't know the effects of all the variables, but I think you could choose 100% chance of pregnancy to force the scene if you had sex with Donna in the bar toilet. If you don't there's a scene with a different blonde girl on the side of the road, who is sent because Donna failed to seduce you. The goal was to get you in an awkward position so the organisation could put you under Harbours control, trying to get you off the board, but Abigail helps you survive (I almost always wake up in hospital, because I couldn't be evil even to ugly old Miru). If Donna is pregnant, there's a scene where she hides the prenancy test while the blonde girl walks in, if she failed to seduce Willi, the blonde girl talks down to her (in a similar way to Leia talking down to Katie about being unable to seduce anyone). There's also a scene where they're reporting to their boss earlier.

The final scene in the old version with Donna that I recall was when Donna finds you at Abigail's house. If she's pregnant, she's terrified that the organisation will find out, and cut her off as useless or compromised, so she switches sides. If she's not pregnant, she's still worried they consider her useless. Either way, she gives Abigail and Willi a location where they can find out more, but we don't know if it's a trap.

Regarding the organisation - my gut feeling is that all parties are independant, and just as Willi is manipulating Krayt by implicating Asavera, the organisation is manipulating them too. That's all be about plausible deniability, and using assets to get results rather than building up and maintaining multiple different organisations. I also think the uncertainty of the power struggle between the independant parties is where a lot of the 'fun' in the story will happen.

 

[Maviarab]

The final scene in the old version with Donna that I recall was when Donna finds you at Abigail's house. If she's pregnant, she's terrified that the organisation will find out, and cut her off as useless or compromised, so she switches sides. If she's not pregnant, she's still worried they consider her useless. Either way, she gives Abigail and Willi a location where they can find out more, but we don't know if it's a trap.

Huh...don't actually remember that hahaha.