VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [Ch. 3 Full] [Oceanlab]

[BobTheDuck]

I agree with you on the reason, but on the other hand Ocean keep dancing to that tune.
Let's assume that Nika or Nami or both are William and Katie's offspring, this would also create problems for him.
Also still looking at SG the problem in the relationship between Nika and Nami makes no sense without an adoptive or blood bond (which the game refuses to mention)

To some extent, we can't really speculate that far ahead. As some people have said, Daphne would be an excellent option for Nami's mom. For SG to be Patreon safe, Nika and Nami can't have the same parents at all, and Nika can't have relationships with any Willi sprogs. If Willi is Nika's father, then ANY child of Willi's becomes off access due to Patreon. But, with Willi and Leia twins, Nika would look like William if Leia was his mother, and has Leia's eyes more than Willi's. Cousins are usually frowned upon, but not treated the same. Complete speculation here. This would of course upset the people who believe that Leia and Willi are the power couple, and Leia shouldn't have children except by Willi though.

What we have that is valuable is an indication of clarity. The question of implementation might take years for us to find out through the story though. Secrets are far more compelling. Look at us right now trying to reason it out based on similarity of render models and eye colours ...we're simply trying to find an order because we currently don't have one, but it feels tantalisingly close to being revealed.

I'm going to try to think a little more short term, and focus on the plot for CH4 to find out if it's as enjoyable as I hope on release. Because that's the thing. Hopefully Ocean's surprises will be engaging rather than off-putting.

 

[Krytax123]

To some extent, we can't really speculate that far ahead. As some people have said, Daphne would be an excellent option for Nami's mom. For SG to be Patreon safe, Nika and Nami can't have the same parents at all, and Nika can't have relationships with any Willi sprogs. If Willi is Nika's father, then ANY child of Willi's becomes off access due to Patreon. But, with Willi and Leia twins, Nika would look like William if Leia was his mother, and has Leia's eyes more than Willi's. Cousins are usually frowned upon, but not treated the same. Complete speculation here. This would of course upset the people who believe that Leia and Willi are the power couple, and Leia shouldn't have children except by Willi though.

What we have that is valuable is an indication of clarity. The question of implementation might take years for us to find out through the story though. Secrets are far more compelling. Look at us right now trying to reason it out based on similarity of render models and eye colours ...we're simply trying to find an order because we currently don't have one, but it feels tantalisingly close to being revealed.

I'm going to try to think a little more short term, and focus on the plot for CH4 to find out if it's as enjoyable as I hope on release. Because that's the thing. Hopefully Ocean's surprises will be engaging rather than off-putting.

I think at this point the best solution would be for Nika to not be William's son. I would have prefered Nika to be a part of the Zane dynasty but i guess he can still become that through marriage when all LI's are kinda Zane's

Maybe .. i dunno .. William has a cool buddy during the story of wiab who kinda sacrifices himself for willy or a zane girl and thats why the Zane's keep having an interest in Nika and Willy could even still be the "uncle" (not blood related) who teached him basket ball as a close friend of his father.

But no clue why Nami would be with them in this case (if shes willy offspring), even in case Daphne died.

And anyway, i have to agree with Dr.TSoni the whole existence of the Nika/Nami situation in SG should speak against no incest at all in SG ... in theory ... who knows ..

On the bright side, it cant really get more confusing

 

[Dr.TSoni]

What we have that is valuable is an indication of clarity. The question of implementation might take years for us to find out through the story though. Secrets are far more compelling. Look at us right now trying to reason it out based on similarity of render models and eye colours ...we're simply trying to find an order because we currently don't have one, but it feels tantalisingly close to being revealed.

This is undeniably a favorite pastime of us fans XD

 

[BobTheDuck]

I think at this point the best solution would be for Nika to not be William's son. I would have prefered Nika to be a part of the Zane dynasty but i guess he can still become that through marriage when all LI's are kinda Zane's

Maybe .. i dunno .. William has a cool buddy during the story of wiab who kinda sacrifices himself for willy or a zane girl and thats why the Zane's keep having an interest in Nika and Willy could even still be the "uncle" (not blood related) who teached him basket ball as a close friend of his father.

But no clue why Nami would be with them in this case (if shes willy offspring), even in case Daphne died.

And anyway, i have to agree with Dr.TSoni the whole existence of the Nika/Nami situation in SG should speak against no incest at all in SG ... in theory ... who knows ..

On the bright side, it cant really get more confusing

THis was the same as my thought. I think people read a lot into young Willi in the pre rework being the same model as young Nika, and there's an obvious assumption there. There are at least 3 narratives I can think of that would fit, but I'm not writing it, and Ocean loves being obscure. What if Ocean decides that Nika's parentage will remain unknown through all of these two games? If it works for the story, why not? Insinuation can add extra spice to the dramas, and add complexities. The question is always going to be about how authentic the writing is. I mean, Ocean's a Star Wars fan, how long did it take for us to find out who Luke's dad was? Then how long until we found out who Leia's dad was?

 

[Krytax123]

THis was the same as my thought. I think people read a lot into young Willi in the pre rework being the same model as young Nika, and there's an obvious assumption there. There are at least 3 narratives I can think of that would fit, but I'm not writing it, and Ocean loves being obscure. What if Ocean decides that Nika's parentage will remain unknown through all of these two games? If it works for the story, why not? Insinuation can add extra spice to the dramas, and add complexities. The question is always going to be about how authentic the writing is. I mean, Ocean's a Star Wars fan, how long did it take for us to find out who Luke's dad was? Then how long until we found out who Leia's dad was?

I think its less about the models and more about the opportunity. Its rare to have two avns like that and avn's usually lack cool male characters so the logical "cool" solution would be for one MC to be the son of the one you played before and being part of the legacy "you" started to build in wiab again.

And imo wasting this is a missed opportunity. Nika just being the son of some rando unrelated to the wiab plot would be a huge disappointment and boring.

The only other option i would consider equally satisfying would be for Nika to be the son of the villain/antagonist in wiab who maybe got killed by William. But we would need a really cool wiab antagonist for that.

Just keeping Nika and Nami in a parentless limbo would be my least favored choice, could have just given him a real family in this case or at least memorys and picture of his parents and him remembering them and their teachings (for emotions, immersion and so on). But remembering stuff isnt Nika's strong suit anyway i guess

 

[Adhdclassic]

Don't know if they will make Nika Williams kid but they are similar. Both schemers and women love them. Feels like the same character different features and age.

 

[sorco2003]

Don't know if they will make Nika Williams kid but they are similar. Both schemers and women love them. Feels like the same character different features and age.

Yeah! Tremolo is his son too!!

 

[Dr.TSoni]

What if Ocean decides that Nika's parentage will remain unknown through all of these two games? If it works for the story, why not? Insinuation can add extra spice to the dramas, and add complexities.

I'm with Krytax on this point, the same rule applies as in the movies "if you show a gun you have to use it".

However, more than the models, the theory that the Zanes are interested in Nika&Nami is Katie's appearance in SG that creates more suspicions

 

[BenMeiffert]

Lot's of theories here... Do you guys are bored waiting for a new fifth version of this game ?
Maybe SG and Wiab are not related... and Ocean just don't like to use the same names in two different games.

 

[sorco2003]

I'm with Krytax on this point, the same rule applies as in the movies "if you show a gun you have to use it".

However, more than the models, the theory that the Zanes are interested in Nika&Nami is Katie's appearance in SG that creates more suspicions

Some time ago there was a discussion between Mcguffins and Chekhov's... So it would remain first to elucidate if the situation is one or the other... a distractive object, a constructive object, flashforward or nothing, the possibilities are there.

 

[BobTheDuck]

I think its less about the models and more about the opportunity. Its rare to have two avns like that and avn's usually lack cool male characters so the logical "cool" solution would be for one MC to be the son of the one you played before and being part of the legacy "you" started to build in wiab again.

And imo wasting this is a missed opportunity. Nika just being the son of some rando unrelated to the wiab plot would be a huge disappointment and boring.

The only other option i would consider equally satisfying would be for Nika to be the son of the villain/antagonist in wiab who maybe got killed by William. But we would need a really cool wiab antagonist for that.

Just keeping Nika and Nami in a parentless limbo would be my least favored choice, could have just given him a real family in this case or at least memorys and picture of his parents and him remembering them and their teachings (for emotions, immersion and so on). But remembering stuff isnt Nika's strong suit anyway i guess

The idea that the WiaB villain is Nika (or Nami's) parent has occurred to me, it's a favourite speculation for the moment. But then, going Star Wars, maybe Ocean wants to do the villian as Darth Vader, and Willi and Leia as Luke and ...Leia. I would not be adverse to this kind of scenario

Nika thinks he remembers his mom reading, so if we ever see any internal dialogue about the sound of someone's voice...

Lot's of theories here... Do you guys are bored waiting for a new fifth version of this game ?
Maybe SG and Wiab are not related... and Ocean just don't like to use the same names in two different games.

Well, we do enjoy trying to work it out. And as far as them being related, yes they are, the dev has said. They are in the same town, Wollust. Katie Zane, Emilio and Stefan Holgerson appear in both games. Leia, Willi, Zoey Holgerson (Katie's girlfriend) and Donna's family (the Revera's) are mentioned in SG. ZPR in SG is named after two families present in WiaB, the Zane's and the Reveras. The Petrova's existed also in the pre reworked version. But most importantly Ocean has said they're set in the same world, WiaB ~20 years before SG.

Some time ago there was a discussion between Mcguffins and Chekhov's... So it would remain first to elucidate if the situation is one or the other... a distractive object, a constructive object, flashforward or nothing, the possibilities are there.

As long as his devlogs aren't Mcguffins!

 

[Darkdevil66]

Lot's of theories here... Do you guys are bored waiting for a new fifth version of this game ?
Maybe SG and Wiab are not related... and Ocean just don't like to use the same names in two different games.

 

[Krytax123]

Don't know if they will make Nika Williams kid but they are similar. Both wannabe schemers and women love them. Feels like the same character different features and age.

I corrected this for you, so far all of their shemes went the wrong way (Nika with the heist and Willy being caught attacking the gang guy). Its kinda a pattern that they only perceive themself as mastermind shemers but are just fuckups who dont consider consequences for even a second at this point

Like Leia didnt wanted to reveal everything to Willy yet so Willy found out on his own and immediatly fucked it up, she kinda had a point and seems to know him

 

[Dr.TSoni]

WiaB ~20 years before SG.

View attachment 3856140

 

[Krytax123]

View attachment 3856140

20 years later and she's even more pretty. And im not even into milfs usually

 

[sorco2003]

As long as his devlogs aren't Mcguffins!

oh no no no... that was a full-fledged Chéjovs. I just can't yet see its firing in the next 20 years. (in game time)

 

[Maviarab]

For all those going on about the future...and SG....having a character in SG that is the result of an incestuos relationship...is NOT against their TOS. Having a character begat of that relationship, discussing it, having it happened in the past off-screen, also does NOT break Patreon's TOS.

If people lived their lives based off of what may happen in the future, what a company may do in the future or how something may change their terms....nothinhg would ever get done and you'd likewise never do anything with your life. If this is the reason for Ocean's change regarding futurproofing WIAB with Steam, he's an idiot.

As for those saying it's no different if real or adopted family...yes, yes it is different. Very pschologically different if you have any experience of it so yes, it does hugely and fundamentally change the entire dynamic of the story and the characters.

 

[BobTheDuck]

For all those going on about the future...and SG....having a character in SG that is the result of an incestuos relationship...is NOT against their TOS. Having a character begat of that relationship, discussing it, having it happened in the past off-screen, also does NOT break Patreon's TOS.

If people lived their lives based off of what may happen in the future, what a company may do in the future or how something may change their terms....nothinhg would ever get done and you'd likewise never do anything with your life. If this is the reason for Ocean's change regarding futurproofing WIAB with Steam, he's an idiot.

As for those saying it's no different if real or adopted family...yes, yes it is different. Very pschologically different if you have any experience of it so yes, it does hugely and fundamentally change the entire dynamic of the story and the characters.

I'm out of reacts so: Great, excellent points above, especially about second guessing.

As far as real or adopted, the emotional weight is different, and I would not suggest otherwise. Narrative wise though, the roles don't need to change and there would be little change to the script. Some of the interactions would be less pointed, some will work better - the Katie war aspect will be a different dynamic that will in some ways feel more natural as an outsider proving themselves against the only child. I'm not suggesting it will be the same, but that it can still tell a significant and emotional story without too much rework.

But not the same story, obviously.

Helen as a stepmom is still as important to Willi in functional ways even if the emotional context is different. She's provided enough empathy and care to make him come back and see what's wrong. Not knowing his biological mom, he doesn't necessarily know the difference without comparison. Or maybe he does, because we don't know why or how long they've been with Helen and Dylan yet. So I'll stop rationalising for as long as I can and have some coffee instead.

Edit: Argh... I ment Helen as an adoptive mom, anyway, you get the point.

 

[Maviarab]

and have some coffee instead

 

[RNasc4444]

If this is the reason for Ocean's change regarding futurproofing WIAB with Steam, he's an idiot.

Can you even fathom a reason or venture a guess where this isn't the case? As it stands there is no doubt in my mind this is an attempt to future proof SG and only SG. He wants the game squeaky clean for not only his precious music licenses but to ensure the future distribution on platforms like Patreon, GoG and Steam without issues.

As for those saying it's no different if real or adopted family...yes, yes it is different. Very pschologically different if you have any experience of it so yes, it does hugely and fundamentally change the entire dynamic of the story and the characters.

Wild that this is even a debate. I don't know if it's naiveté, ignorance or a blatant disregard for biology. To even imply there is no difference between a blood bond a a legal one is absurd.