- Jun 25, 2017
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- Mar 10, 2024
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I think ocean knew the incest direction might end up a problem. That's why they put in little things in the story at the time didn't make sense unless they had to change things.
- Sep 3, 2020
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If you look at what is said in the screenshots. Especially the comments and reaction by Miru why would she say what she said about Katie. It doesn't sound like she is talking about a sister but a girl he had feelings for. So if you were going to turn Katie from family to something else that comment would make sense. I know the rules about how you have to say things relating to family like saying landlord landlady tenant. Look at the interaction with Leia. Miru says you are his best friend, and she says yea friend. Ocean if they decide to change them from siblings those remarks would make more sense.
This are the unpatched versions ? It is not impossible that Ocean was flirting with the idea for some time now, I doubt he decided it last week. The problem I see with your idea is the timing, If Ocean thought that incest would become a problem from the beginning of the remake, why went with it ? He rebot the game from the start, that was the best moment to adress it
.Most probably in my view this change only came to be the moment he decided to publish it on the Steam, as so far my understanding goes even Steam having no problem with Incest content having one version for Steam and one for Patreon is a big NoNo.So the problem was born, how to make the story make sense for Steam players and respect Patreon TOS, not an easy task. But now the Patreon was nuked and rendered the change pointless.
I think Ocean is only being extra careful now, he already lost one Patreon he may not want to jeopardise SG or lost SS WiaB in 5 years if they change their TOS, the games are his income he invests money on them, losing revenue is a big deal.
- Mar 10, 2024
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Agree that's what I mean remember the shit they went through with SG. They didn't even have sex and they didn't make it easy. The original WIAB had sex with Leia, Katie, Scarlett and if I remember Helen. So Thats why I think they did that. Again it's an assumption.
- Sep 3, 2020
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Since patreon's declaration of "war" at the end of 2018 which is more or less like this, there are devs who are lazier than others when it comes to patching... And the infamous Katie, is the same in both version... William hate what Katie did (we dont know yet what were her sin)
The shit with SG is not fault of Steam, that was a Ocean´s decision, first y most important for the music and second he tries to fit the game in the pegi16 to sell it around the world wo restriction.
- Sep 3, 2022
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Steam is a lot less strict than Patreon.
Steam only really cares about "underage", high school imagery, copyrighted content, and bestiality.
Basically, anything else, incest, rape, blackmail (all things Patreon doesn't allow) etc., they do not care about, at all.
- Dec 24, 2018
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I quoted this one rather than link all the posts I though I could add something further, so it's a combined reply
This is one of the most direct screens (unpatched) that shows Ocean has been thinking about this for a while:
Again the think to keep in mind is that with Willi and Leia confirmed to be related, there is incest unless Ocean demotes Leia as an LI (super unlikely). This means that further family relationships are not any bigger a problem. Ocean has confirmed Leia and Willi. So incest potential is not the reason for the change. Ocean confirming Leia and Willi are related means he'll have to change friend to sister in the script. So those screens are old Ocean worried about Patreon, which is no longer an issue. So to make the story make sense without a patch, he's taking the step of confirming that Leia and Willi are indeed blood related, but also that they are the black sheep, unrelated to anyone we've met so far in WiaB.
Even in the unpatched version you had:
Which might not have to change - do Willi and Leia even know whether they're related? I'm going to assume Ocean will change as few renders as he can, he'll most likely add/extend scenes for extra details.
If it was me writing this change, I'd have Leia reveal it to Willi when they have the heart to heart - she would find out when she's hospitalised after he leaves. That would be the simplest explanation. Then they both have to question Dylan (because Helen's not talking) about who their real parents are and why they were adopted from birth.
This would be the simplest way with the most minimal changes to the current chapters, it could be done with just a few sentences in the script. Leia and Willi still grow up being little shits to Katie, they still call Helen mom etc. I have two friends who only found out they were adopted when they were late teenagers, so stories like this don't seem farfetched to me. If Willi already knew he was adopted, he'd still call Helen mom like every other adopted person I've met who has been adopted at an early age. No one calls the "caregiver Helen" or something inane like that. It's also less problematic calling Helen mom than it is to admit Willi's related to anyone, so now we know that, it's all about what narrative Ocean chooses to move forward with.
As a side note, original WiaB had sex with Donna, Katie as a non canon side piece, Miru, Zoey, Emilie and the girl in prison from memory. Leia was oral, and I don't recall anything in the story with Scarlet or Helen (there was a side piece with Helen as a futa doing Miru) other than minor lewds. I admit to not having exhausted all the potenital choices in the old one.
I understand this, I'm not denying that expectations are real, the thing is that since the rework, there's never been any real lewd action to support those expectations, so the consolation prize is you haven't lost content you already liked about the rework. I'm saying that as a purely pragmatic statement, because yes, there are supported who support because it started as horny MC screws everyone in his family in an edgy noire who dunnit. So the support feels like its been for nothing, and on false premises. That is truly an awful feeling for anyone.
By confirming one family relationship, we still have the main part of that premise. Helen was really a hope of content from the old prerework and the massages in the new. Katie as incest is the thing that's lost that is the biggest change. There's more Kat in the current version, Scarlet's old scene was on par with old Miru for being disturbing purely because it was so unattractive. The main path that people hope for is still there (assumption) and has been canonised. So it's not completely a case of AVN sleight of hand, "look over there, nothing to see here, whistling". Ocean's finally cut the ambiguity so there can be one canon version without having to dodge the questions any more, at least that's how I'm understanding it.
I'm not insenstive to the support concerns either. The question for me is will it be a compelling story, compelling enough that we enjoy it more than the fetishes we might prefer? Every AVN that wishes to be a great game needs to be bigger than any single fetish, and it has to be founded on something compelling enough to keep us engaged. We can't tell if this is a great move until we play the new chapter and see if it fits seamlessly and whether the change has been worthwhile. If it's done well, hopefully we'll gain a stronger story.
And yes, Dylan, the uncertain dad who admits weakness but tries to hold things together. OCean has created father figures in both games who don't need to die, and this is nice.
Epic!Indeed. Like Bob said:
And it will. I'm gonna speculate a bit here, but I think the new theme will be "adoption".
We will see how landlord Dylan and landlady Helen adopted our incestuous siblings. And my guess is in Season 2 the title will be reworked into something like "Where the adoptions began". I can already see the season starting with a flashback of a tiny House being adopted by the trees in a forest in Wollust after being abandoned by a Farm. That house grew up and adopted a pair of orphans, none other than landlord Dylan and landlady Helen. They have a child, who they name Katie. Then they adopt a Pool. A few years into young Katie's life they decide to adopt a new pair of orphaned siblings (mirroring their young selves) and they all become roommates and landlords in the House where it all started.
But here is the twist, remember how the tiny House was abandoned by the old Farm? The House had a roommate too. And that House adopted landlady Helen's sister Scarlet and her future husband Uncle Joe. They had two little roommates of their own called Katerina and Lucas. That's how the Family came to be. And then we move on to where Season 1 left off with all the backstory we needed.
"You don't turn your back on family. Even when they do." -Dom Toretto
EDIT:
...but Dana shall be the only landlord!
- Sep 3, 2020
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You're focusing everything purely on the sexual scenes, when I haven't even talked about it.I understand this, I'm not denying that expectations are real, the thing is that since the rework, there's never been any real lewd action to support those expectations, so the consolation prize is you haven't lost content you already liked about the rework. I'm saying that as a purely pragmatic statement, because yes, there are supported who support because it started as horny MC screws everyone in his family in an edgy noire who dunnit. So the support feels like its been for nothing, and on false premises. That is truly an awful feeling for anyone.
By confirming one family relationship, we still have the main part of that premise. Helen was really a hope of content from the old prerework and the massages in the new. Katie as incest is the thing that's lost that is the biggest change. There's more Kat in the current version, Scarlet's old scene was on par with old Miru for being disturbing purely because it was so unattractive. The main path that people hope for is still there (assumption) and has been canonised. So it's not completely a case of AVN sleight of hand, "look over there, nothing to see here, whistling". Ocean's finally cut the ambiguity so there can be one canon version without having to dodge the questions any more, at least that's how I'm understanding it.
I'm not insenstive to the support concerns either. The question for me is will it be a compelling story, compelling enough that we enjoy it more than the fetishes we might prefer? Every AVN that wishes to be a great game needs to be bigger than any single fetish, and it has to be founded on something compelling enough to keep us engaged. We can't tell if this is a great move until we play the new chapter and see if it fits seamlessly and whether the change has been worthwhile. If it's done well, hopefully we'll gain a stronger story.
And yes, Dylan, the uncertain dad who admits weakness but tries to hold things together. OCean has created father figures in both games who don't need to die, and this is nice.
How they approach the different characters, how they relate to each other in a common chat, the familiarity, the complicity the jokes that without patching up lose their funniness. An incest story is not just about the sex scenes.
As if to affirm this, patreon banned this game for incest, with no sexual scenes other than those of Miru.
- Aug 13, 2021
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I'm not a fan of this change... but it doesn't change all that much I don't think. Leia, William, and Katie still grew up together. Dylan and Helen still raised them. Patreon still eats enormous bags of dicks. I don't really understand why Ocean felt he needed to do this, but whatever. This is one of those AVNs I'm happy to play when there's an actual release, otherwise it doesn't occupy my mind.
P.S.
WiAB > SG
P.S.
WiAB > SG
- Dec 24, 2018
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I understand this, but the familiarity of people raised together would still be mostly the same, it really depends on the family cohesion. If seen some adopted friends who have tighter sibling bonds than I do with my family, so I don't see this change as substantially changing the interactions. There will still be rivalry between Katie, Willi and Leia, only now there will be a canon reason for them being little shits to her. They're still going to make her play as the bibi with the wrong toys etc. Dylan being focused on Katie being bullied and not noticing how much Leia was affected by Willi's disappearance will make more sense, it's natural Dylan would be more sensitive to Katie.
As Katie is what, 4 years younger (?) than Willi and Leia, there's the potential Helen and Dylan adopted because they thought they couldn't have kids and then Katie came along. Maybe Dylan is not Katie's father but is Helen's daughter and Helen got pregnant from cucking Dylan... there are so many ways for this story to unfold.
The thing which determines familiarity is how early in their lives Willi and Leia because part of the household. This is why I'm willing to wait to see what the story tells about their upbringing, because it might not affect any of the interactions, it might all still feel natural.
An incest story without sex scenes or romance ...sounds like regular family interaction to me. Sure patreon has its axe to grind, but the premise of close family bonds due to growing up together can be quite normal. As I mentioned, most of the adopted people I know have really tight family bonds. The thing is that in an incest story, the looming assumption of sex for the player acts as the punchline to every interaction, so everything has a double entendre. That assumption of taboo is now removed for Katie, not the naturalness of the interactions. In fact in the current version we've almost had a double double entendre, because you had to read your own interpretation of the story without a patch to even make sense of the double entendres in the interactions.
Again, this is all wait and see.
Edit: Also, that screengrab - "I wish your mom had used protection" is so much more natural and bitchy if Willi's adopted.
I agree with you, just want to.point out some thoughts Ocean could have achieved the same cohesion to story by confirming that they are family, and now with out Patreon this should not be a problem. Ocean gave us two reason for the change, the first is a cohesive story for the Steam the other is that some relationship did not felt natural.
When I think about it, two questions come to mind The change was made because Ocean wants a story that is cohesive and does not infringe TOS, changing Leia later on is more easy than change all the relationship, or the change was made because Ocean was unsatisfied with the story ?
the first one I can relate, the later one raises others questions. That I don't think paints him in a good light.
- Dec 24, 2018
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Those are my thoughts too. However, if we treat the confirmation of Leia and Willi as relatives as true, then the compliance is not about WiaB as standalone, it has to be about the way the stories interact with characters moving forward. Because if WiaB has Willi and Leia related, then why not also Katie? Helen? If one, there is no reason internal to WiaB not to do all.
For the relationships to feel forced to Ocean potential means he's not enjoying trying to write those paths. Today's Ocean might find it less appealing. Or to do some of the NTR he has planned, it just became too cumbersome to write - multiple taboos at the same time are a challenge to make authentic. I personally would hate to see a render where there's the lines "this is wrong, but you're filling me up so good!" because no one says that outside of porn. If Ocean plans of making the relations feel natural, and there's a gradual slide into more precarious relationships via NTR, then if he doesn't feel like the dialogue is authentic, he's not going to be proud of the release. Today me regrets at least 40% of what 4 years ago me said... memory is fickle and people change. I don't thing growth as a writer paints them in a bad light. Fear of consequences can cripple a story though, and it's really hard to judge the reasons,
I'd rather Ocean writes what he can commit to rather than try to force something he considers lame or stitled writing. If he's not enjoying or believing what he's doing, there's far less chance we will.
At the moment we're just trying to make sense of the tiniest scrap of info without any value of the context though, Ch4 will be revealing as to whether this was a good change or not. I'm all for devs being self aware enough to not paint themselves into a corner, but the danger for Ocean is overthinking, precisely because he'll change personally through growth over then next 5 years, 10 years etc. and it's always going to be a trap for him to overthink yesterdays work by today's opinions.
Again I agree with you. I understand Ocean growing as a person and as a writer, but at some point he will need to settle for something, both of his projects will not be finished in a 10 years time and the ambiton of it is one of the reasons that I like it. But if every time he finds something too cumberstone to write he changes something, then his projetcs trully will never be done.
As I have said, is not it having less incest bothers me, is the precedent that it opens that worries me. I will not judge it until I have played and I trust that it will be for the better.
And just like you have said, we know very little and don't have the context. Right now I am chosen to believe that Ocean is playing safe, was a decision made when WiaB still had a Patreon page and he do not see the need to change. If it happens to make some things easyer down the line is just a bonus. Personally, I like this interpretation a lot more than Ocean changing his mind once again and the game in a significant way.
- Mar 13, 2021
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Well, everybody's got his/her/its/thems main priorities...
and I think Ocean's main priorities are:
1) his games' soundtrack music;
2) taxation in Germany.
Ocean's main project is ...
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- Mar 17, 2021
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It seams we have more drama around the game(s) then in the game. To date we had "totally not MC's sister" aka roommate, no we have "former neighbor's roommate's friend". Is Steam go now (or in near future) full Patreon rampage and devs know it or devs got burned and now they fear Steam too?
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For all it´s many flaws (as a German I know what I talk about) Steam is less strict when it comes to sex stuff. The thing that they geoblock nations like Germany is because of the pictures/previews and their laughable age verification, not the story. They fear allegations with underage customers seeing "dirty" pics like the devil does holy water.
That it is not the sex can be seen in several AVNs which still are buyable with German steam. One has a brother-sister couple as the main pairing (and it is made very clear in the story that you are banging/in love with your brother or sister), but as the two are working/at university and there is a free 18+ patch from the devs site, this game is sold without fuss.
But coming back to the WIAB, I think Ocean is making a serious mistake with making Willi/Leia adopted. Unless he has a MAJOR bang situation to be revealed, making the Twins an entity of their own is destroying a lot of the story logic/hints so far.
Willi´s currently unknown, but estimated reasons for fleeing Wollust are called into doubt more than they were before. In addition, if it is the incest angle, why at all. It is quite clear that most of the few friends Willi and Leia had knew or at least suspected that something more was going on between the twins. (In old WIAB e.g. Zoey was actually surprised that not more had happened and she was also eager to get Willi and Leia to reconcil and finally do the deed and even new Zoey seems to be quite certain what went on between the twins)
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- Jul 9, 2017
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I'm really just playing devil's advocate. It's very likely that Leia will be romanceable and we know, from before the remake, that she and William had a past. I just don't think we can assume anything until the dust settles. If he rewrites everything so that Leia isn't an LI, then we'll know that Ocean changed it because he was scared of incest repercussions. Unfortunately, by then, the damage will already have been done.
I think Ocean underestimates the damage fiddling with the story does. We are already getting to know these people in WiAB and SG and when things get turned over, it doesn't feel great. People get attached, you know?