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LHDLLB

Member
Oct 3, 2019
433
872
It's the rest that worries me, if leaving them was preferable to them knowing the truth, is the adoptive mother's incident still a strong enough motivation for William's return?


View attachment 3857375
I think so. william did not came home only because Helen, he came home because he missed his folks, his friends even his city and he knows he wronged them, he his trying to make things right.Helen and Leia provides a reason, an excuse to come back. The man was gonna probably marry Miru and not have his family at the wedding ? William wanted to come back and did not know how to do it, Helen accident is the means not the reason.

If it is that the Zanes are his adoptive family I don't think it will affect too much, I agree that it can not be the same as if they are blood related, but I don't think it should ruin the story, just change the flavor, it may not be my favorite but is not bad either.

But even that is speculation, Ocean never said they are adopted, Helen and Dylan can be their godparents or their neighbors, that are present during their childhood and William and Leias parent died before he run away. It would required some changes to the early versions but until Ocean state something, nothing is really impossible.
 

Maviarab

Devoted Member
Jul 12, 2020
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I think so. william did not came home only because Helen, he came home because he missed his folks, his friends even his city and he knows he wronged them
Sure about that? When did he leave again....did he stay in touch...ever visit...before/after prison (and we have no idea how long that stint actually was)....
The man was gonna probably marry Miru and not have his family at the wedding ?
Sure..why not? See above response...

So back to Lady Tsoni's comment, he came back because his sister rang him and told him Helen had been in a serious accident. Now think about this. If he 'knew' he was adopted, would he rush back to an adopted mother....one he left, has not seen or even bothered speaking to...for years? (and we're estimating at least 10+ years right). He could have been dead and buried for all his 'family' knew...

Sure, guilt, past friends blah blah wah were probably a factor...but none of those factors actually mattered before, did they or he'd have gone back if all those things you mention mattered so much to him?

It really just doesn't make a lot of sense does it?
 

Dr.TSoni

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2022
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Yes. Leia said William was Helen's favorite. Even as an adopted child, William could be doted on. It's just a question of compelling writing to make it work.
I think so. william did not came home only because Helen, he came home because he missed his folks, his friends even his city and he knows he wronged them, he his trying to make things right.Helen and Leia provides a reason, an excuse to come back. The man was gonna probably marry Miru and not have his family at the wedding ? William wanted to come back and did not know how to do it, Helen accident is the means not the reason.

If it is that the Zanes are his adoptive family I don't think it will affect too much, I agree that it can not be the same as if they are blood related, but I don't think it should ruin the story, just change the flavor, it may not be my favorite but is not bad either.
It's possible but I can't get rid of the idea that the context changes drastically

But even that is speculation, Ocean never said they are adopted, Helen and Dylan can be their godparents or their neighbors, that are present during their childhood and William and Leias parent died before he run away. It would required some changes to the early versions but until Ocean state something, nothing is really impossible.
Given the precedents it could be the most probable option

Lady Tsoni's
I became a Lady
XD
 

AlexFXR

Member
Sep 24, 2023
407
666
Since we are going down that rabbit hole of "Nika said his parents are dead" not being entirely true for whatever reason...
If I remember everything correctly, Noji told how Nami’s parents, together with Nika’s parents, went somewhere for work and got into an accident in which they died. This was before the rework.

Given the complicated relationships in the Zane background story, it's entirely possible that some Zane's were estranged from each other. And therefore it's not entirely unreasonable if "William's son" wouldn't recognize his Katie, especially when at least half a decade has passed since they've last met.
I don’t pretend to be truthful and it doesn’t matter to me whether they are relatives or not. I just find it all very strange. By the way, half a decade is not an indicator. The same amount of time has passed since he and Summer broke up, and even more time has passed since his uncle taught Nika to play basketball, he still remembers it. Moreover, if Nika is their relative, then why didn’t they take him in? Instead, he was adopted by a friend of his dead parents.
 

LHDLLB

Member
Oct 3, 2019
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872
Sure about that? When did he leave again....did he stay in touch...ever visit...before/after prison (and we have no idea how long that stint actually was)....

Sure..why not? See above response...

So back to Lady Tsoni's comment, he came back because his sister rang him and told him Helen had been in a serious accident. Now think about this. If he 'knew' he was adopted, would he rush back to an adopted mother....one he left, has not seen or even bothered speaking to...for years? (and we're estimating at least 10+ years right). He could have been dead and buried for all his 'family' knew...

Sure, guilt, past friends blah blah wah were probably a factor...but none of those factors actually mattered before, did they or he'd have gone back if all those things you mention mattered so much to him?

It really just doesn't make a lot of sense does it?
I can think reasons as why he did not stay in touch, shame, guilt. We don't know how he run away, it may be that it was easier to sweep under the rug then confront what he have done and why, until it came back ringuing in his phone and he could not do that anymore. Was either face it head on or living knowing that he was being a coward

The Miru quote, is not that he could not do that, he could. Was that something like that, the confrontation was bound to happen, his confrontation as whether he wants to make amends or not. I as a pather would find odd if the person that I would marry did not wanted his mother - adoptive or not- in his wedding.would inquire the reasons behind it and if he wanted to reach out or not.


I understand you. My point is that what motivates his come back is less the mystery of Helen accident and more the realization that if did not go now he could never go again. He could have reach out because Helen, marriage, funeral all of this are a means, a reason to a deeper desire that is he wants to come home.William is the prodigal son, he really just needs an excuse.
 

RNasc4444

Active Member
Aug 16, 2022
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It really just doesn't make a lot of sense does it?
Careful now...you're getting dangerously close to sounding a little too much like me :ROFLMAO:

Dial it back or soon enough you're getting hit with the epiphany I had 2 years ago. The realization that Ocean's stories have never been (and probably never will be), even remotely, grounded in logic. I really did mean the comment I made a few weeks back. The foundations of his stories are as solid and reliable as quicksand. If he can't write a coherent beginning, how do you think this is gonna look like by the end?
 
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Cabin Fever

Engaged Member
Nov 23, 2018
3,308
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If I remember everything correctly, Noji told how Nami’s parents, together with Nika’s parents, went somewhere for work and got into an accident in which they died. This was before the rework.
Personally I don't take anything Noji says about their background as what really happened. When it comes to that particular subject matter, she's shady as hell.
 

Dr.TSoni

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2022
1,140
3,641
Careful now...you're getting dangerously close to sounding a little too much like me :ROFLMAO:

Dial it back or soon enough you're getting hit with the epiphany I had 2 years ago. The realization that Ocean's stories have never been (and probably never will be), even remotely, grounded in logic. I really did mean the comment I made a few weeks back. The foundations of his stories are as solid and reliable as quicksand. If he can't write a coherent beginning, how do you think this is gonna look like by the end?
tumblr_5e4c8085873b2fff1bccf44a74381f77_5bce175c_540.gif
My fear is that the original idea has ended up diluted over time.
Over the last two days I've been playing the old version out of curiosity and replaying the new one
In both versions prison is what prevents William from returning years earlier but while in the old version it is his greatest trauma, now it is used simply to make Leia angry
 
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LHDLLB

Member
Oct 3, 2019
433
872
I really did mean the comment I made a few weeks back. The foundations of his stories are as solid and reliable as quicksand. If he can't write a coherent beginning, how do you think this is gonna look like by the end?
That is the real damage that this change does, is hard to get invested in a story that can change at any moment, this is why I choose to believe that Ocean is just being cautious. Otherwise, the future of WiaB and SG is a lot more uncertain
 

BobTheDuck

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Dec 24, 2018
1,756
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Sure about that? When did he leave again....did he stay in touch...ever visit...before/after prison (and we have no idea how long that stint actually was)....

Sure..why not? See above response...

So back to Lady Tsoni's comment, he came back because his sister rang him and told him Helen had been in a serious accident. Now think about this. If he 'knew' he was adopted, would he rush back to an adopted mother....one he left, has not seen or even bothered speaking to...for years? (and we're estimating at least 10+ years right). He could have been dead and buried for all his 'family' knew...

Sure, guilt, past friends blah blah wah were probably a factor...but none of those factors actually mattered before, did they or he'd have gone back if all those things you mention mattered so much to him?

It really just doesn't make a lot of sense does it?
Same would apply to a blood relative he hasn't seen or contacted in a decade, why run back now? The blood or not blood argument is moot. Willi's actions show that he'd made a break with his past.

- We don't currently know the connection other than Helen being a form of caregiver. When we patched it so she's a blood relative it doesn't make sense that he'd do a 180 either.
- After prison and the lessons learnt, going from young bully to slightly more sensitive meathead (with viable tearducts at least) was part of that. After surviving maybe shame kept him from wanting anyone to know he'd been in prison, all of the past was boxed up in the too hard to process basket? Plausible. The script talks about how he's afraid how Helen will react to him, how he's afraid she'll hit him. So it's a combination of some sort of shame/guilt/fear that's kept him away. It's too hard, and Miru distracts him with almost endless sex to cheer him up, so nothing gets done.
- The news about Helen hits him hard. Leia doesn't say if Helen's in hospital, only there's been an accident. William could be fearing it's his last chance to fix things up with Helen. Then he gets back and everyone is acting mostly like nothing's happened, because Leia gave him the impression it was an emergency. His emotions spiked, broke his reserve, and we know he's impulsive.

This is how I always understood it. Leia creates a sense of emergency (despite there not being one) so William decides to get over himself in case it's his only chance to reconcile with Helen. Especially seeing he was her favourite. Leia is busy piling on the guilt trip for her hidden motive, and she gives him the task of talking to Monica, when she already has. Most of the holes are because we don't know Leia's motive, because we don't know who the antagonists are. Essentially though, the relations or lack would be in response to Willi assuming the worst from Leia's phone call.

Personally I don't take anything Noji says about their background as what really happened. When it comes to that particular subject matter, she's shady as hell.
On that whole thing: the assumption is that Noji is working to keep Nika away from the Zanes. We don't know that, there might be other reasons, and she might dislike Katie for other reasons. The Zanes know exactly where NIka was if Coach Hill is keeping tabs on Nika in highschool. NIka's not hidden from the Zanes, maybe the Zanes are keeping their distance on purpose?

View attachment 3857877
My fear is that the original idea has ended up diluted over time.
Over the last two days I've been playing the old version out of curiosity and replaying the new one
In both versions prison is what prevents William from returning years earlier but while in the old version it is his greatest trauma, now it is used simply to make Leia angry
Well, Nika also started writing after prison, and because a more balanced individual than we see in the current flashbacks. We don't know enough about prison, how he survived it etc in the new version.

Ch4 will (presumably) pretty much start with William talking to Leia, so I'm going to assume there will be a lot of expositional details which will outline what the changes are, and give us a framework to understand how the new interactions will work. I guess from that we'll know if the story'll make sense.

Regarding what RNasc4444 and Maviarab point out about the dynamic of blood relationships having a wildcard effect on people's emotions, I guess that is the nature vs nurture angle. It's the only thing that can't be replaced. by naming the relationships something else. It's lost. That doesn't mean there won't be plausible dynamics of another kind, but they won't be the same dynamic. Totally fair. Even if the interactions look the same, it changes from inherent response to learned response in a way, even if adopted from birth. But until we see ch4, wh don't know how Ocean will tweak the previous chapter's scripts, or what will be revealed, and whether or not the story is internally consistent with its own logic.
 

sorco2003

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Sep 3, 2020
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Same would apply to a blood relative he hasn't seen or contacted in a decade, why run back now? The blood or not blood argument is moot. Willi's actions show that he'd made a break with his past.

- We don't currently know the connection other than Helen being a form of caregiver. When we patched it so she's a blood relative it doesn't make sense that he'd do a 180 either.
- After prison and the lessons learnt, going from young bully to slightly more sensitive meathead (with viable tearducts at least) was part of that. After surviving maybe shame kept him from wanting anyone to know he'd been in prison, all of the past was boxed up in the too hard to process basket? Plausible. The script talks about how he's afraid how Helen will react to him, how he's afraid she'll hit him. So it's a combination of some sort of shame/guilt/fear that's kept him away. It's too hard, and Miru distracts him with almost endless sex to cheer him up, so nothing gets done.
- The news about Helen hits him hard. Leia doesn't say if Helen's in hospital, only there's been an accident. William could be fearing it's his last chance to fix things up with Helen. Then he gets back and everyone is acting mostly like nothing's happened, because Leia gave him the impression it was an emergency. His emotions spiked, broke his reserve, and we know he's impulsive.

This is how I always understood it. Leia creates a sense of emergency (despite there not being one) so William decides to get over himself in case it's his only chance to reconcile with Helen. Especially seeing he was her favourite. Leia is busy piling on the guilt trip for her hidden motive, and she gives him the task of talking to Monica, when she already has. Most of the holes are because we don't know Leia's motive, because we don't know who the antagonists are. Essentially though, the relations or lack would be in response to Willi assuming the worst from Leia's phone call.



On that whole thing: the assumption is that Noji is working to keep Nika away from the Zanes. We don't know that, there might be other reasons, and she might dislike Katie for other reasons. The Zanes know exactly where NIka was if Coach Hill is keeping tabs on Nika in highschool. NIka's not hidden from the Zanes, maybe the Zanes are keeping their distance on purpose?



Well, Nika also started writing after prison, and because a more balanced individual than we see in the current flashbacks. We don't know enough about prison, how he survived it etc in the new version.

Ch4 will (presumably) pretty much start with William talking to Leia, so I'm going to assume there will be a lot of expositional details which will outline what the changes are, and give us a framework to understand how the new interactions will work. I guess from that we'll know if the story'll make sense.

Regarding what RNasc4444 and Maviarab point out about the dynamic of blood relationships having a wildcard effect on people's emotions, I guess that is the nature vs nurture angle. It's the only thing that can't be replaced. by naming the relationships something else. It's lost. That doesn't mean there won't be plausible dynamics of another kind, but they won't be the same dynamic. Totally fair. Even if the interactions look the same, it changes from inherent response to learned response in a way, even if adopted from birth. But until we see ch4, wh don't know how Ocean will tweak the previous chapter's scripts, or what will be revealed, and whether or not the story is internally consistent with its own logic.
There are times when going through these threads surprises you by the clarity of what is exposed, finding a philosophical/psychological argumentation that could give you pages and pages of debate, is one of them... Congrats! natura versus nurtura, excellent contribution.

Regarding the first part of the post, I consider one of the valid forms of construction, what I call "false complexity". That complexity created from the lack of information, which is filled in through the course of the story. Unfortunately this leads to only two situations, either it is accepted as given or it is discarded as incoherent.
 
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Maviarab

Devoted Member
Jul 12, 2020
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23,111
Same would apply to a blood relative he hasn't seen or contacted in a decade, why run back now? The blood or not blood argument is moot. Willi's actions show that he'd made a break with his past.

- We don't currently know the connection other than Helen being a form of caregiver. When we patched it so she's a blood relative it doesn't make sense that he'd do a 180 either.
- After prison and the lessons learnt, going from young bully to slightly more sensitive meathead (with viable tearducts at least) was part of that. After surviving maybe shame kept him from wanting anyone to know he'd been in prison, all of the past was boxed up in the too hard to process basket? Plausible. The script talks about how he's afraid how Helen will react to him, how he's afraid she'll hit him. So it's a combination of some sort of shame/guilt/fear that's kept him away. It's too hard, and Miru distracts him with almost endless sex to cheer him up, so nothing gets done.
- The news about Helen hits him hard. Leia doesn't say if Helen's in hospital, only there's been an accident. William could be fearing it's his last chance to fix things up with Helen. Then he gets back and everyone is acting mostly like nothing's happened, because Leia gave him the impression it was an emergency. His emotions spiked, broke his reserve, and we know he's impulsive.

This is how I always understood it. Leia creates a sense of emergency (despite there not being one) so William decides to get over himself in case it's his only chance to reconcile with Helen. Especially seeing he was her favourite. Leia is busy piling on the guilt trip for her hidden motive, and she gives him the task of talking to Monica, when she already has. Most of the holes are because we don't know Leia's motive, because we don't know who the antagonists are. Essentially though, the relations or lack would be in response to Willi assuming the worst from Leia's phone call.
Which all makes far more logical sense if it's his actual family....not people who adopted him. If he is not aware then no dynamic has changed....if he is aware however then sorry, I will die on this hill that blood/not blood matters a whole lot to how people react, especially depending on when he found out.
 

BobTheDuck

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Dec 24, 2018
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Which all makes far more logical sense if it's his actual family....not people who adopted him. If he is not aware then no dynamic has changed....if he is aware however then sorry, I will die on this hill that blood/not blood matters a whole lot to how people react, especially depending on when he found out.
Oh absolutely - I'm not arguing that it won't have a different effect. But the result can be the same, William still would be moved to resolve the past. I have two friends that I have tension with. If I found out they were in hospital dying, I'd want to resolve the tension if they stil thought certain things about me. My friends are both too proud about the particular situation, so I don't have a way to easily do it. But I'd want to. I see this as similar - the shock of the past hitting us in the present can jolt us out of our status quo. The level and intensity of the feeling and the reasons are different, but if we care about that person, we might indeed drop our day to day rituals.

I simply don't think that saying "William is adopted, therefore he wouldn't go back to see if Helen's okay" makes sense. Some blood relative would turn of the phone and block the number, wanting a completely new life. Everyone has their reasons.

There are times when going through these threads surprises you by the clarity of what is exposed, finding a philosophical/psychological argumentation that could give you pages and pages of debate, is one of them... Congrats! natura versus nurtura, excellent contribution.

Regarding the first part of the post, I consider one of the valid forms of construction, what I call "false complexity". That complexity created from the lack of information, which is filled in through the course of the story. Unfortunately this leads to only two situations, either it is accepted as given or it is discarded as incoherent.
I think the nature vs nurture concept could be a great thing for Ocean to explore while he's doing this game. One of my favourite games had the premise "what can change the nature of a man?" Everything in the game revolves around the repercussions of your actions, how one pebble cause the ripples in others lives. In the same way, if Ocean was to explore some of these boundaries and intersections of human nature, it could strengthen the narrative. Not a heavy handed or nerdy way (like Nika talking about cause and effect), but situationally and through actions, only using words when absolutely necessary.

But heck, I'd settle for a release just to see whats going on in Ocean's mind, because as you say, the danger of the way he's constructed his ambiguities allows for (I guess) ideological "mondegreens", where we find what seems plausible to us in the ambiguity, then get let down when the punch line's delivered, because what we had in our head was so much more fitting to us. Hopefully we get to find out before our opinions crytallise.
 
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Maviarab

Devoted Member
Jul 12, 2020
9,988
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Oh absolutely - I'm not arguing that it won't have a different effect. But the result can be the same, William still would be moved to resolve the past. I have two friends that I have tension with. If I found out they were in hospital dying, I'd want to resolve the tension if they stil thought certain things about me. My friends are both too proud about the particular situation, so I don't have a way to easily do it. But I'd want to. I see this as similar - the shock of the past hitting us in the present can jolt us out of our status quo. The level and intensity of the feeling and the reasons are different, but if we care about that person, we might indeed drop our day to day rituals.

I simply don't think that saying "William is adopted, therefore he wouldn't go back to see if Helen's okay" makes sense. Some blood relative would turn of the phone and block the number, wanting a completely new life. Everyone has their reasons.
I just don't think after so many years of being NC (a lot by choice) that if it was adopted family (and he knew...knowing is key here) that he would literally drop everything and be off the day after....his real mother in an accident and his sister calls him out of the blue...makes perfect sense.....the other way....really doesn't to me. Sure, still go...but it wouldn;t be immediate and drop everything like he does. Again, we're at a loss unfortunately if he does know, when did he find out etc. I think people are forgetting the time period he's been gone is quite significant and that also makes a difference.

As you say, the next chapter should be interesting.

I think the nature vs nurture concept could be a great thing for Ocean to explore while he's doing this game. One of my favourite games had the premise "what can change the nature of a man?" Everything in the game revolves around the repercussions of your actions, how one pebble cause the ripples in others lives. In the same way, if Ocean was to explore some of these boundaries and intersections of human nature, it could strengthen the narrative. Not a heavy handed or nerdy way (like Nika talking about cause and effect), but situationally and through actions, only using words when absolutely necessary.
Excellent points and yes, was a great game indeed I agree :)
 

BobTheDuck

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Dec 24, 2018
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I just don't think after so many years of being NC (a lot by choice) that if it was adopted family (and he knew...knowing is key here) that he would literally drop everything and be off the day after....his real mother in an accident and his sister calls him out of the blue...makes perfect sense.....the other way....really doesn't to me. Sure, still go...but it wouldn;t be immediate and drop everything like he does. Again, we're at a loss unfortunately if he does know, when did he find out etc. I think people are forgetting the time period he's been gone is quite significant and that also makes a difference.

As you say, the next chapter should be interesting.


Excellent points and yes, was a great game indeed I agree :)
Well, there's also whatever the reason for his choice to stay away was. From memory (I have to redownload a version to properly access the script), William mentioned a sense of shame about prison, and not being able to look Helen in the eye because of what happened. He might imagine how much everyone hates him, having left because of blackmail or whatever the new situation is. ALthough those reasons are no longer current, there's still a logic that can't be discounted until we know his reasons. Leia his (definite) sister called him and asked for him, so it even works on your premise, it can be that he's doing it because of Leia. The other thing is that William doesn't actually seem to be doing anything, as an author, it's pretty easy to pick up and put down work on your own terms.

There's so much that's currently unsaid, and we're probably 3 days into the game time.I really hope Ch4 starts with WIlli and Leia, just because I'm impatient, and seeing their interactions will reveal a lot even if Ocean doesn't spill all the beans.
 

sorco2003

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Sep 3, 2020
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Well, there's also whatever the reason for his choice to stay away was. From memory (I have to redownload a version to properly access the script), William mentioned a sense of shame about prison, and not being able to look Helen in the eye because of what happened. He might imagine how much everyone hates him, having left because of blackmail or whatever the new situation is. ALthough those reasons are no longer current, there's still a logic that can't be discounted until we know his reasons. Leia his (definite) sister called him and asked for him, so it even works on your premise, it can be that he's doing it because of Leia. The other thing is that William doesn't actually seem to be doing anything, as an author, it's pretty easy to pick up and put down work on your own terms.

There's so much that's currently unsaid, and we're probably 3 days into the game time.I really hope Ch4 starts with WIlli and Leia, just because I'm impatient, and seeing their interactions will reveal a lot even if Ocean doesn't spill all the beans.
The issue with the latter is something I've been saying since the rework, and that Katie and Leia tell him to his face.... William is a coward. That the solution to a supposed blackmail by a 10 year old girl is to run away without looking back, makes him look pretty bad even without any change on the relationships... now, if he is adopted and he knew it, so any threat from Katie has some logic (who are they going to believe more, me that I am adopted or they own blood?) makes the betrayal he makes to Leia even worse, not only he abandons her as a coward, but he leaves her in enemy territory...
And the next question that occurs to me in this hypothetical case is why come back if before he believed that the blood would weigh more? did he overcome cowardice? As a starting point it leaves a lot of unknowns which I didn't pay attention to because Katie:love: exists, and I guess I won't pay attention to it in the future because Katie:love: exists.
I feel Vidal, who SG doesn't give a damn as long as he has Bella.:ROFLMAO:
 

BobTheDuck

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Dec 24, 2018
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The issue with the latter is something I've been saying since the rework, and that Katie and Leia tell him to his face.... William is a coward. That the solution to a supposed blackmail by a 10 year old girl is to run away without looking back, makes him look pretty bad even without any change on the relationships... now, if he is adopted and he knew it, so any threat from Katie has some logic (who are they going to believe more, me that I am adopted or they own blood?) makes the betrayal he makes to Leia even worse, not only he abandons her as a coward, but he leaves her in enemy territory...
And the next question that occurs to me in this hypothetical case is why come back if before he believed that the blood would weigh more? did he overcome cowardice? As a starting point it leaves a lot of unknowns which I didn't pay attention to because Katie:love: exists, and I guess I won't pay attention to it in the future because Katie:love: exists.
I feel Vidal, who SG doesn't give a damn as long as he has Bella.:ROFLMAO:
And it does get down to that - we like what we like because that part we like resonates, whether it's Katie or someone else.

About William being a coward, well, he was then, but after prison, who knows? He couldn't run away in prison, at all. Ho probably got big there because he couldn't run away. And his emotions got beaten in a different way. He survives, years pass then a door to life before prison opens, that he though was shut, that he'd forgotten existed. He looks back on how naive he was to leave everyone, how shit he was to abandon Katie I mean Leia and he cries, decides to fix what he broke.

I mean, it really shouldn't be hard to write at least 5 or 6 plausible beginings for the new scenario.
 
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4.30 star(s) 196 Votes