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RNasc4444

Well-Known Member
Aug 16, 2022
1,040
4,282
So I think MC's motivation to leave would be no different depending on whether he was adopted or not.
I want you to know that I tried but I truly cannot make sense of that perspective. I understand it, I get why it make sense to you but it just does not to me.

Genuine question, if you were to play WiAB again from the beginning, replay all content there is so far with this new knowledge, that only William and Leia are related, does it still feel natural to you?

The only way it does for me is if I assume Leia and Willi don't know that they are adopted. And if they don't know, if they were never told, were I in their place, for the rest of my life I would harbor nothing other than hatred and resentment towards them for hiding the truth for so long.

But if they do know, then I'm gonna be honest, nothing about the story so far feels natural or makes sense to me. Given how close Willi and Leia were they would always have this "us against them" mentality. If they had no blood bond to Katie, Dylan or Helen that feeling would naturally be 10x stronger. If they were not related to them I would not feel enough shame to just leave because Leia would always come first. Therefore I can not envision giving in to Katie's blackmail. I can not envision the same fear of disappointing someone I'm not related to no matter how much I love them/am thankful to them. And likewise I can not envision feeling the same guilt, enough to return all those years after. I would return for Leia. I would never consider returning for the rest of the "family".

I'm not saying I'm in the right here. And maybe there is something wrong with me, I'm not ruling that out. But the fact is, no matter how hard I try, I cannot, for a single second, even pretend that blood bond = adoption/guardianship.
 

Dr.TSoni

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2022
1,355
4,360
I want you to know that I tried but I truly cannot make sense of that perspective. I understand it, I get why it make sense to you but it just does not to me.

Genuine question, if you were to play WiAB again from the beginning, replay all content there is so far with this new knowledge, that only William and Leia are related, does it still feel natural to you?

The only way it does for me is if I assume Leia and Willi don't know that they are adopted. And if they don't know, if they were never told, were I in their place, for the rest of my life I would harbor nothing other than hatred and resentment towards them for hiding the truth for so long.

But if they do know, then I'm gonna be honest, nothing about the story so far feels natural or makes sense to me. Given how close Willi and Leia were they would always have this "us against them" mentality. If they had no blood bond to Katie, Dylan or Helen that feeling would naturally be 10x stronger. If they were not related to them I would not feel enough shame to just leave because Leia would always come first. Therefore I can not envision giving in to Katie's blackmail. I can not envision the same fear of disappointing someone I'm not related to no matter how much I love them/am thankful to them. And likewise I can not envision feeling the same guilt, enough to return all those years after. I would return for Leia. I would never consider returning for the rest of the "family".

I'm not saying I'm in the right here. And maybe there is something wrong with me, I'm not ruling that out. But the fact is, no matter how hard I try, I cannot, for a single second, even pretend that blood bond = adoption/guardianship.
I partially disagree on your topic in general, but specifically on WiAB I completely agree. Just look at the relationship between William and Dylan which has that "I think you did a shitty job but you're still my father" feel to it. A feeling that, I fear, would become resentment in an adoption situation.
 

weezal

Active Member
Jul 5, 2022
559
1,007
I partially disagree on your topic in general, but specifically on WiAB I completely agree. Just look at the relationship between William and Dylan which has that "I think you did a shitty job but you're still my father" feel to it. A feeling that, I fear, would become resentment in an adoption situation.
None of this choice makes any sense at all. I can only pray ocean comes to his senses. 1721776730155.png
 

LHDLLB

Active Member
Oct 3, 2019
569
1,257
I want you to know that I tried but I truly cannot make sense of that perspective. I understand it, I get why it make sense to you but it just does not to me.

Genuine question, if you were to play WiAB again from the beginning, replay all content there is so far with this new knowledge, that only William and Leia are related, does it still feel natural to you?

The only way it does for me is if I assume Leia and Willi don't know that they are adopted. And if they don't know, if they were never told, were I in their place, for the rest of my life I would harbor nothing other than hatred and resentment towards them for hiding the truth for so long.

But if they do know, then I'm gonna be honest, nothing about the story so far feels natural or makes sense to me. Given how close Willi and Leia were they would always have this "us against them" mentality. If they had no blood bond to Katie, Dylan or Helen that feeling would naturally be 10x stronger. If they were not related to them I would not feel enough shame to just leave because Leia would always come first. Therefore I can not envision giving in to Katie's blackmail. I can not envision the same fear of disappointing someone I'm not related to no matter how much I love them/am thankful to them. And likewise I can not envision feeling the same guilt, enough to return all those years after. I would return for Leia. I would never consider returning for the rest of the "family".

I'm not saying I'm in the right here. And maybe there is something wrong with me, I'm not ruling that out. But the fact is, no matter how hard I try, I cannot, for a single second, even pretend that blood bond = adoption/guardianship.
While I don't fully agree with all that you have said, I do for the most part. As of right now we are all guessing, but I think that William and Leia always knew they are adopt - if this is the direction Ocean goes - simply because if it was a intent to become a plot point, given how Ocean spoon feed information information in each update, he would not do so in a devlog. The change will be retroactive, maybe add some lines when William and Miru are talking in Chapter 1, I don't know, but to reveal now... it disrupts the flow of the story. William goes back to make amend, but finds out that his parents lied to him all his life, for me changes too much too fast. In short . It does not work.

About William and Leia, I fully agree, some of the relationships dynamics will have to change they can not stay the same. Who I see suffering most of it is Katie, her thing is that she was the third wheel but now her resentment towards the Twins and Helen and Dylan has to be a lot deeper she was the passed over child while being - maybe - the only natural one. That is the type of thing that really fucks up a child head. The thing is that I don't think Ocean will want to go that direction, because I don't think this change is born out of a artistic view but rather of a pratical need, so my fear is that the story becomes much like SG S1, a patched out thing, where you can see where was cut and stitched together. The difference is that SG it affected only one season, WiaB the whole story.
 

brinith

Newbie
Oct 12, 2019
21
74
Wait so I'm confused after reading the last 10 pages of comments or so. Is this story moving away from interfamily coitus now? story rewrite?
 

txe320

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2023
1,444
3,298
Wait so I'm confused after reading the last 10 pages of comments or so. Is this story moving away from interfamily coitus now? story rewrite?
Sounds like it, but we are not sure if it's only story changes or a rework from the first chapter that would change a lot more too.
 

LHDLLB

Active Member
Oct 3, 2019
569
1,257
Wait so I'm confused after reading the last 10 pages of comments or so. Is this story moving away from interfamily coitus now? story rewrite?
Is this story moving away from interfamily coitus now? Yes, but also kinda maybe. the thing is that nobody really knows exactly how it will play out, but MC is only officially related to one person now where before he was related to 10+ (?) people. Now what the dev meant wich "related" is what we are trying to understand.

story rewrite? possibly
 

brinith

Newbie
Oct 12, 2019
21
74
Is this story moving away from interfamily coitus now? Yes, but also kinda maybe. the thing is that nobody really knows exactly how it will play out, but MC is only officially related to one person now where before he was related to 10+ (?) people. Now what the dev meant wich "related" is what we are trying to understand.

story rewrite? possibly
that stinks, I was actually invested in seeing the relationship with his twin move forward, potentially resolve. Same with Mom.
 
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LHDLLB

Active Member
Oct 3, 2019
569
1,257
that stinks, I was actually invested in seeing the relationship with his twin move forward, potentially resolve. Same with Mom.
That is good, Leia ( the twin) is the confirmed related character so you still can enjoy
 

BobTheDuck

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2018
1,898
10,710
I want you to know that I tried but I truly cannot make sense of that perspective. I understand it, I get why it make sense to you but it just does not to me.

Genuine question, if you were to play WiAB again from the beginning, replay all content there is so far with this new knowledge, that only William and Leia are related, does it still feel natural to you?

The only way it does for me is if I assume Leia and Willi don't know that they are adopted. And if they don't know, if they were never told, were I in their place, for the rest of my life I would harbor nothing other than hatred and resentment towards them for hiding the truth for so long.

But if they do know, then I'm gonna be honest, nothing about the story so far feels natural or makes sense to me. Given how close Willi and Leia were they would always have this "us against them" mentality. If they had no blood bond to Katie, Dylan or Helen that feeling would naturally be 10x stronger. If they were not related to them I would not feel enough shame to just leave because Leia would always come first. Therefore I can not envision giving in to Katie's blackmail. I can not envision the same fear of disappointing someone I'm not related to no matter how much I love them/am thankful to them. And likewise I can not envision feeling the same guilt, enough to return all those years after. I would return for Leia. I would never consider returning for the rest of the "family".

I'm not saying I'm in the right here. And maybe there is something wrong with me, I'm not ruling that out. But the fact is, no matter how hard I try, I cannot, for a single second, even pretend that blood bond = adoption/guardianship.
I think this is where people's individuality comes into play. I don't know who my grandfather is. My dad doesn't know, and has no way to find out, my grandmother fled Europe during WWII and never mentioned him, died over 20 years ago. We've got his name on a birth certificate, to it's plausible these days to find out, but we don't know if that name is real. My dad cried when his stepdad died, despite how abusive he was towards my dad and his step sister. My dad and his stepsister got all the inheritance, and all their uncles and cousins are not on speaking terms, my dad and his step sister get on and keep in touch, help each other. My sister keeps egging my dad to find out, but he can't be bothered.

Family is complicated whatever form it takes. Would my dad have different feeling at his actual dad's funeral? We can't know. My dad was reacting authentically to the situation he lived through.

Back to WiaB, we're rating William's emotional responses as being inauthentic in on situation as another. He might actually be that affected, because that's the person he is - meathead in appearance to protect the parts of him that are raw. He might be crying for Helen on the phone, he might be crying for himself realising how he let things slide. All we see are tears. So yes I agree, there will be a different bundle of feelings and logic between natural child and adopted child, but it doesn't mean the feelings are stronger, weaker or whatever. Willi has had only one experience, he only has his lifeline. We're the one positing him in two different scenarios and putting his feelings on the scales. He's just reacting.

So yes, I can see his feelings as plausible, they are just with different composition, different memories. Things like Helen reading him to sleep or Dylan giving him his love of working out. The bond might be differnt, but the gratitude is personal, and William's not a complete asshole, just a buffoon. He's capable of gratitude and of care. Think about how he calls Daphne and how much he dreads it and how emotional he gets. He does wear his heart on his sleeve, even though he can be obnoxiously oblivious.

In the new paradigm, yes the tension between Katie will be heightened. I consider that a good thing. The bond with Leia, well, how self absorbed is William? That flashback shows he didn't really give as much though to Leia as she gave to him. I can belief he'd make an impetuous decision to leave, then ends up in the wrong place, ends up in prison, can't escape. He learns to be a bit more self reliant, less oblivious.

If they've not been told, yes, resentment can occur. Massively. No problem with that drama popping up once they're told. Future drama. If Leia has been told, that would explain why she keeps her distance about breakfast. They might have had to tell Leia after she had her breakdown and the doctors revealed it from the medical records. Who knows? Or they've grown up knowing. What's the best age to tell someone adopted from birth? Or, when were they adopted?

In your stance, your putting a one size fits all approach to adoption, essentially saying that all these potential scenarios have the same lesser weight. They all have a different bundle of emotions. Keep in mind that before Ocean mentions this change, William still didn't connect with his family after things settled down. He was prepared to let things slide. I'm suggesting his personality is very much like a bulldog, whatever is in his frame of vision he latches onto (but with the persistance of memory of a goldfish maybe when it comes to women :sneaky:) but he can be very oblivious.

Regards dropping everything, William is impulsive, and is pretty much just hanging out having laser tag sex with Miru. He doesn't have a wage, he's a personal trainer and author. He can shift his schedule around, and might have had a slow week.
 

zack1419

Member
Sep 22, 2019
139
344
I want you to know that I tried but I truly cannot make sense of that perspective. I understand it, I get why it make sense to you but it just does not to me.

Genuine question, if you were to play WiAB again from the beginning, replay all content there is so far with this new knowledge, that only William and Leia are related, does it still feel natural to you?

The only way it does for me is if I assume Leia and Willi don't know that they are adopted. And if they don't know, if they were never told, were I in their place, for the rest of my life I would harbor nothing other than hatred and resentment towards them for hiding the truth for so long.

But if they do know, then I'm gonna be honest, nothing about the story so far feels natural or makes sense to me. Given how close Willi and Leia were they would always have this "us against them" mentality. If they had no blood bond to Katie, Dylan or Helen that feeling would naturally be 10x stronger. If they were not related to them I would not feel enough shame to just leave because Leia would always come first. Therefore I can not envision giving in to Katie's blackmail. I can not envision the same fear of disappointing someone I'm not related to no matter how much I love them/am thankful to them. And likewise I can not envision feeling the same guilt, enough to return all those years after. I would return for Leia. I would never consider returning for the rest of the "family".

I'm not saying I'm in the right here. And maybe there is something wrong with me, I'm not ruling that out. But the fact is, no matter how hard I try, I cannot, for a single second, even pretend that blood bond = adoption/guardianship.
wait i havent been paying attention to this forum for a while, but is Ocean finally going to ruin this game with new rewrites? pls say it aint so.
 

yossa999

Engaged Member
Dec 5, 2020
2,403
16,183
I want you to know that I tried but I truly cannot make sense of that perspective. I understand it, I get why it make sense to you but it just does not to me.

Genuine question, if you were to play WiAB again from the beginning, replay all content there is so far with this new knowledge, that only William and Leia are related, does it still feel natural to you?
Absolutely. They are still the same family and their bond and relationship came from the love and care that Helen and Dylan gave MC and Leia since they were children. I don't know, but to me it looks like that when you talk about foster families, you get the image of these half-drunk freaks who groom orphans in order to get more money from social services for their booze.

The only way it does for me is if I assume Leia and Willi don't know that they are adopted. And if they don't know, if they were never told, were I in their place, for the rest of my life I would harbor nothing other than hatred and resentment towards them for hiding the truth for so long.
The only thing I can agree on is that it will definitely be a shock for them to find out that they are adopted children. And then the author can take that twist any way he wants, and I think we've all seen possible development of this twist in popular films and books.
Adopted children may hate their natural parents for abandoning them.
Adopted children may hate their adoptive parents for hiding the truth.
They may freak out at first, but then realize and accept their adoptive parents' motivations.
They may want to know their biological parents or decide they don't care cause the only parents they know are those who raised them.
And there are a hundred more variations and combinations, and a good author will be able to write them all plausible.
By the way, I recently heard a version that Helen cucked Dylan, so the MC and Leia are her own children, but Dylan isn't their father. :HideThePain:

But if they do know, then I'm gonna be honest, nothing about the story so far feels natural or makes sense to me. Given how close Willi and Leia were they would always have this "us against them" mentality. If they had no blood bond to Katie, Dylan or Helen that feeling would naturally be 10x stronger. If they were not related to them I would not feel enough shame to just leave because Leia would always come first. Therefore I can not envision giving in to Katie's blackmail. I can not envision the same fear of disappointing someone I'm not related to no matter how much I love them/am thankful to them. And likewise I can not envision feeling the same guilt, enough to return all those years after. I would return for Leia. I would never consider returning for the rest of the "family".
If they still have an "us against them" mentality, then Helen and Dylan were bad parents and couldn't do their jobs properly. They couldn't make them feel wanted and loved. Well, that’s also a possible option, but it doesn’t seem plausible to me, because in MC’s childhood memories they all look happy (well, maybe except for Katie :Kappa:).

And before you say that these memories become irrelevant because they were about blood parents, I disagree. This would mean that adoptive parents cannot feel the same connection and love for their adopted children as blood parents, which is not true. It's just your belief that blood kinship automatically makes parental and childish bond ten times stronger. Ever heard of mothers throwing their newborn children in the dumpster?

I'm not saying I'm in the right here. And maybe there is something wrong with me, I'm not ruling that out. But the fact is, no matter how hard I try, I cannot, for a single second, even pretend that blood bond = adoption/guardianship.
My favorite game, unfortunately abandoned before the plot even began to move anywhere, is based on this very trope.
MC, whose mother abandoned him at birth and who has an adoptive father, receives a call from the hospital, a nurse tells him that his mother is dying and asks him to visit her. And he is tormented, trying to decide whether he should do this and whether this would be a betrayal of his adoptive father - the only person who cared about him and whom he truly considers his real parent. I don't think you would like this game. :KEK:
 

LHDLLB

Active Member
Oct 3, 2019
569
1,257
In the new paradigm, yes the tension between Katie will be heightened. I consider that a good thing. The bond with Leia, well, how self absorbed is William? That flashback shows he didn't really give as much though to Leia as she gave to him. I can belief he'd make an impetuous decision to leave, then ends up in the wrong place, ends up in prison, can't escape. He learns to be a bit more self reliant, less oblivious.

If they've not been told, yes, resentment can occur. Massively. No problem with that drama popping up once they're told. Future drama. If Leia has been told, that would explain why she keeps her distance about breakfast. They might have had to tell Leia after she had her breakdown and the doctors revealed it from the medical records. Who knows? Or they've grown up knowing. What's the best age to tell someone adopted from birth? Or, when were they adopted?
Highlighted this paragraphs because it relates to what I have said, and I agree with the rest. I don't think the new dynamic with Katie is necessarily a bad thing either, as long it stays at the back of Ocean mind when writing her, I think it will be a bad thing if Katie still behaves as she does, as the dynamics have changed her behavior should follow up, that is all. I agree that Leia was way more invested in their relationship, but then again the change should affect their relationship as well and to my mind a more tight up Twins makes perfect sense in this scenario. About William leaving in a unthoughted out decision, tottaly agree.

this is where I mostly disagree, is not with the drama that I have a problem, is how it affects the story. It disrupts the flow in my view, the first 3 chapters are concerned with presenting the world, its characters, planting seeds and raising question, CH3 ends just before the biggest confrontation that we have at the moment, to drop a nuke like that, the whole chapter 4 should be about it and we do not move forward. I don't think Ocean should, wants or will do so, to stop the narrative now to deal with it does not make sense in the telling of a story, at least in my mind. Maybe Ocean cooked up something really good and will pull a neat trick and surprise me, but from where I stand it makes much more sense to just have Miru asking William if he ever wanted to know his birth mom and he saying "no" and move on. In a story where you can fuck your pimp twin sister, your adoptive mother, aunt cousin, sister, sister girlfriend, get cucked by your adoptive father and your fat cousin and probably a few more, potentially become a kingpimp/mobboss do you need to add more drama ?
 

BobTheDuck

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2018
1,898
10,710
Highlighted this paragraphs because it relates to what I have said, and I agree with the rest. I don't think the new dynamic with Katie is necessarily a bad thing either, as long it stays at the back of Ocean mind when writing her, I think it will be a bad thing if Katie still behaves as she does, as the dynamics have changed her behavior should follow up, that is all. I agree that Leia was way more invested in their relationship, but then again the change should affect their relationship as well and to my mind a more tight up Twins makes perfect sense in this scenario. About William leaving in a unthoughted out decision, tottaly agree.

this is where I mostly disagree, is not with the drama that I have a problem, is how it affects the story. It disrupts the flow in my view, the first 3 chapters are concerned with presenting the world, its characters, planting seeds and raising question, CH3 ends just before the biggest confrontation that we have at the moment, to drop a nuke like that, the whole chapter 4 should be about it and we do not move forward. I don't think Ocean should, wants or will do so, to stop the narrative now to deal with it does not make sense in the telling of a story, at least in my mind. Maybe Ocean cooked up something really good and will pull a neat trick and surprise me, but from where I stand it makes much more sense to just have Miru asking William if he ever wanted to know his birth mom and he saying "no" and move on. In a story where you can fuck your pimp twin sister, your adoptive mother, aunt cousin, sister, sister girlfriend, get cucked by your adoptive father and your fat cousin and probably a few more, potentially become a kingpimp/mobboss do you need to add more drama ?
In my mind I can come up with really simple changes that would work for 5-6 different origin scenarios without needing a single new render. The question of plausibility is one of personal connection to the past story. Some people will (rightly so) feel cheated as the personalities have changed, but that is because the characters and current story/drama resonates with them. Even if Ocean writes a plausible change, the situation no longer has the same resonance. There is nothing a writer can do but make their own narrative as plausible as possible, as authentic as possible. Katie as bratty step sister is the easiest change in my mind. For other people it is narrative suicide. We're currently not judging the story on what Ocean has written, but on fear of change.

I think that when ch4 arrives, Ocean will have effectively patched the script for the first 3 chapters, leading us naturally into whatever revelations will occur when William and Leia talk. As far as there being enough drama? Hell no. More is more. If it's well written, keep me on the edge of my seat. Give me suspense, give me more engaging story. Integrate the changes so that they are part of the bedrock, not a patch. Be wholehearted and convincing. How that happens, well, we have to wait, see and hope Ocean knows what he wants to do.

The sad thing is that the expectations of supporters who were funding something going in one direction, have had that direction changed. To me that is not cool, but that is the danger of being a patron - after all, it's not ordering from Amazon.

I find it interesting that of the complaints, no one is really caring that much that Leia is confirmed as William's natual sister. It just shows how much Katie is the best girl.
 

Dr.TSoni

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2022
1,355
4,360
I find it interesting that of the complaints, no one is really caring that much that Leia is confirmed as William's natual sister. It just shows how much Katie is the best girl.
tenor.gif
(Miru too)
I remain of the opinion that for many the relationship between the Zanes is based on "the blood is stronger"
look1.jpg

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sorco2003

Well-Known Member
Donor
Sep 3, 2020
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My favorite game, unfortunately abandoned before the plot even began to move anywhere, is based on this very trope.
MC, whose mother abandoned him at birth and who has an adoptive father, receives a call from the hospital, a nurse tells him that his mother is dying and asks him to visit her. And he is tormented, trying to decide whether he should do this and whether this would be a betrayal of his adoptive father - the only person who cared about him and whom he truly considers his real parent. I don't think you would like this game. :KEK:
So the MC's impulse is to go visit his biological mother on her deathbed...that mother who abandoned him and traumatized him for life and yet he is driven into a mental storm instead of just saying "no"... Rare example to set.
 
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sorco2003

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Sep 3, 2020
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I find it interesting that of the complaints, no one is really caring that much that Leia is confirmed as William's natual sister. It just shows how much Katie is the best girl.
There are only a few of us here Bob... you would have to see in the subs chat room on disocord what reaction you got (in spoiler WIAB there were two comments and they go hand in hand with the thoughts expressed in this thread).
 
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BobTheDuck

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2018
1,898
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There are only a few of us here Bob... you would have to see in the subs chat room on disocord what reaction you got (in spoiler WIAB there were two comments and they go hand in hand with the thoughts expressed in this thread).
Because I'm not a supporter until I can buy on steam, I only see the spoilers channel, but discord is creepy. I too would wear a hazmat suit when looking for info there :oops:

It's those in that position this change hits the hardest.
 
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4.20 star(s) 197 Votes