VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [Ch. 3 Full] [Oceanlab]

[LHDLLB]

In the new paradigm, yes the tension between Katie will be heightened. I consider that a good thing. The bond with Leia, well, how self absorbed is William? That flashback shows he didn't really give as much though to Leia as she gave to him. I can belief he'd make an impetuous decision to leave, then ends up in the wrong place, ends up in prison, can't escape. He learns to be a bit more self reliant, less oblivious.

If they've not been told, yes, resentment can occur. Massively. No problem with that drama popping up once they're told. Future drama. If Leia has been told, that would explain why she keeps her distance about breakfast. They might have had to tell Leia after she had her breakdown and the doctors revealed it from the medical records. Who knows? Or they've grown up knowing. What's the best age to tell someone adopted from birth? Or, when were they adopted?

Highlighted this paragraphs because it relates to what I have said, and I agree with the rest. I don't think the new dynamic with Katie is necessarily a bad thing either, as long it stays at the back of Ocean mind when writing her, I think it will be a bad thing if Katie still behaves as she does, as the dynamics have changed her behavior should follow up, that is all. I agree that Leia was way more invested in their relationship, but then again the change should affect their relationship as well and to my mind a more tight up Twins makes perfect sense in this scenario. About William leaving in a unthoughted out decision, tottaly agree.

this is where I mostly disagree, is not with the drama that I have a problem, is how it affects the story. It disrupts the flow in my view, the first 3 chapters are concerned with presenting the world, its characters, planting seeds and raising question, CH3 ends just before the biggest confrontation that we have at the moment, to drop a nuke like that, the whole chapter 4 should be about it and we do not move forward. I don't think Ocean should, wants or will do so, to stop the narrative now to deal with it does not make sense in the telling of a story, at least in my mind. Maybe Ocean cooked up something really good and will pull a neat trick and surprise me, but from where I stand it makes much more sense to just have Miru asking William if he ever wanted to know his birth mom and he saying "no" and move on. In a story where you can fuck your pimp twin sister, your adoptive mother, aunt cousin, sister, sister girlfriend, get cucked by your adoptive father and your fat cousin and probably a few more, potentially become a kingpimp/mobboss do you need to add more drama ?

 

[BobTheDuck]

Highlighted this paragraphs because it relates to what I have said, and I agree with the rest. I don't think the new dynamic with Katie is necessarily a bad thing either, as long it stays at the back of Ocean mind when writing her, I think it will be a bad thing if Katie still behaves as she does, as the dynamics have changed her behavior should follow up, that is all. I agree that Leia was way more invested in their relationship, but then again the change should affect their relationship as well and to my mind a more tight up Twins makes perfect sense in this scenario. About William leaving in a unthoughted out decision, tottaly agree.

this is where I mostly disagree, is not with the drama that I have a problem, is how it affects the story. It disrupts the flow in my view, the first 3 chapters are concerned with presenting the world, its characters, planting seeds and raising question, CH3 ends just before the biggest confrontation that we have at the moment, to drop a nuke like that, the whole chapter 4 should be about it and we do not move forward. I don't think Ocean should, wants or will do so, to stop the narrative now to deal with it does not make sense in the telling of a story, at least in my mind. Maybe Ocean cooked up something really good and will pull a neat trick and surprise me, but from where I stand it makes much more sense to just have Miru asking William if he ever wanted to know his birth mom and he saying "no" and move on. In a story where you can fuck your pimp twin sister, your adoptive mother, aunt cousin, sister, sister girlfriend, get cucked by your adoptive father and your fat cousin and probably a few more, potentially become a kingpimp/mobboss do you need to add more drama ?

In my mind I can come up with really simple changes that would work for 5-6 different origin scenarios without needing a single new render. The question of plausibility is one of personal connection to the past story. Some people will (rightly so) feel cheated as the personalities have changed, but that is because the characters and current story/drama resonates with them. Even if Ocean writes a plausible change, the situation no longer has the same resonance. There is nothing a writer can do but make their own narrative as plausible as possible, as authentic as possible. Katie as bratty step sister is the easiest change in my mind. For other people it is narrative suicide. We're currently not judging the story on what Ocean has written, but on fear of change.

I think that when ch4 arrives, Ocean will have effectively patched the script for the first 3 chapters, leading us naturally into whatever revelations will occur when William and Leia talk. As far as there being enough drama? Hell no. More is more. If it's well written, keep me on the edge of my seat. Give me suspense, give me more engaging story. Integrate the changes so that they are part of the bedrock, not a patch. Be wholehearted and convincing. How that happens, well, we have to wait, see and hope Ocean knows what he wants to do.

The sad thing is that the expectations of supporters who were funding something going in one direction, have had that direction changed. To me that is not cool, but that is the danger of being a patron - after all, it's not ordering from Amazon.

I find it interesting that of the complaints, no one is really caring that much that Leia is confirmed as William's natual sister. It just shows how much Katie is the best girl.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

I find it interesting that of the complaints, no one is really caring that much that Leia is confirmed as William's natual sister. It just shows how much Katie is the best girl.

(Miru too)
I remain of the opinion that for many the relationship between the Zanes is based on "the blood is stronger"

Spoiler: But let's talk about serious things

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[sorco2003]

My favorite game, unfortunately abandoned before the plot even began to move anywhere, is based on this very trope.
MC, whose mother abandoned him at birth and who has an adoptive father, receives a call from the hospital, a nurse tells him that his mother is dying and asks him to visit her. And he is tormented, trying to decide whether he should do this and whether this would be a betrayal of his adoptive father - the only person who cared about him and whom he truly considers his real parent. I don't think you would like this game.

So the MC's impulse is to go visit his biological mother on her deathbed...that mother who abandoned him and traumatized him for life and yet he is driven into a mental storm instead of just saying "no"... Rare example to set.

 

[sorco2003]

I find it interesting that of the complaints, no one is really caring that much that Leia is confirmed as William's natual sister. It just shows how much Katie is the best girl.

There are only a few of us here Bob... you would have to see in the subs chat room on disocord what reaction you got (in spoiler WIAB there were two comments and they go hand in hand with the thoughts expressed in this thread).

 

[Deleted member 7636288]

The incest genre is dying. I sense a dark future ahead.

"a lighten dark future" you mean.

 

[BobTheDuck]

There are only a few of us here Bob... you would have to see in the subs chat room on disocord what reaction you got (in spoiler WIAB there were two comments and they go hand in hand with the thoughts expressed in this thread).

Because I'm not a supporter until I can buy on steam, I only see the spoilers channel, but discord is creepy. I too would wear a hazmat suit when looking for info there

It's those in that position this change hits the hardest.

 

[sorco2003]

Because I'm not a supporter until I can buy on steam, I only see the spoilers channel, but discord is creepy. I too would wear a hazmat suit when looking for info there

It's those in that position this change hits the hardest.

Of the public channels, the SG channel is active and you will find most of Ocean's responses... on the WIAB channel almost nothing ever happens.

 

[BobTheDuck]

View attachment 3861978
(Miru too)
I remain of the opinion that for many the relationship between the Zanes is based on "the blood is stronger"
View attachment 3861976

Spoiler: But let's talk about serious things

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Saying "she's still my bibi sister" could be an adequate answer to "Hey William, you're adopted, what do you think about Katie now?"

I mean, this is a different context, but it works no matter what the scenario is. William effectively accepts Katie as part of his circle, even though he trolls the shit out of her.

Piercing? There's a few moments like that where Ocean forgets a layer or object, like a guy with hair being bald in one render... but then I'm reminded of the classic Predator moment where you can see the guy who's had his arm shot off hiding his arm behind his back, or the Die hard moment where a dead guy blinks as they tug his shirt. Happens all the time, 110% of the time

Of the public channels, the SG channel is active and you will find most of Ocean's responses... on the WIAB channel almost nothing ever happens.

...okay, just had a look on the spoilers channel, and I know why I don't spend much time on discord - when people don't even know who Donna is and place her as Vanessa's mum... had to log off fast before my brain melted. Much prefer the intelligent people here by at least 9 on a scale of 1 - 8

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Saying "she's still my bibi sister" could be an adequate answer to "Hey William, you're adopted, what do you think about Katie now?"

 

[yossa999]

So the MC's impulse is to go visit his biological mother on her deathbed...that mother who abandoned him and traumatized him for life and yet he is driven into a mental storm instead of just saying "no"... Rare example to set.

Of course he's shocked and confused, who wouldn't be?
But, firstly, the player has the opportunity to decide how the MC feels about this - "1. MC will go 2. MC won't go. 3. MC don’t know.” (In the end he will go anyway, it just sets his feelings toward his mother.)
Secondly, he has an annoying girlfriend who encourages him to go and says that he will not lose anything if he'll go, but he will lose chance to know his blood mother otherwise.
And thirdly, in the end he calls his stepfather to share his thoughts, and their conversation perfectly shows what kind of relationship a decent stepfather should have with his stepson:

Spoiler: The conversation

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I don't see how this can damage your precious unique "dynamics" .
To me, WiAB will only get better if there will be moments like this.

 

[xCalon]

I've read the many comments you've made since the last devlog, and I have to say I understand everyone's arguments and counter arguments, I can't even find fault with your logic. But it seems to me that sometimes you all tend to overdo the what ifs..., maybe..., perhaps..., and forget the small thing that WiaB is an incomplete AVN, that is constantly changing, taking shape. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but it is what it is.

I have time, I have patience, I can wait, and when the new chapter is released, I'm going to play with it. For me, it is a simple, and easy choice.

(...) It just shows how much Katie is the best girl.

Why is this even a question?

Katie

 

[RNasc4444]

I've read the many comments you've made since the last devlog, and I have to say I understand everyone's arguments and counter arguments, I can't even find fault with your logic. But it seems to me that sometimes you all tend to overdo the what ifs..., maybe..., perhaps..., and forget the small thing that WiaB is an incomplete AVN, that is constantly changing, taking shape. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but it is what it is.

I have time, I have patience, I can wait, and when the new chapter is released, I'm going to play with it. For me, it is a simple, and easy choice.



Why is this even a question?

Katie

I'm aware we're all jumping the gun here with the speculation. We will all have to wait and see how this plays out but at the same time, it's not like we can pretend Ocean doesn't have a controversial enough track record. See SG and all its changes. First he cut down the incest then he went for the teen dating sim approach with the age rating.

I can only and will only ever speak for myself here but the reason for my strong reaction, even in a game I don't find all that engaging, is that WiAB was supposed to be the darker and more mature VN. If Ocean is already toning it down with the incest how do you think this will affect the rest of the themes? I always assumed (perhaps wrongly) that this would feature some darker themes considering the subject matters seen so far like prison, drug dealing, pimping, gang violence, etc...

 

[Cabin Fever]

View attachment 3861978
(Miru too)
I remain of the opinion that for many the relationship between the Zanes is based on "the blood is stronger"
View attachment 3861976

Spoiler: But let's talk about serious things

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Technically those could be glue-on instead of piercing.

 

[The Krogan Dude]

Why laugh emoji?

Because they removed the facepalm.

 

[BobTheDuck]

I'm aware we're all jumping the gun here with the speculation. We will all have to wait and see how this plays out but at the same time, it's not like we can pretend Ocean doesn't have a controversial enough track record. See SG and all its changes. First he cut down the incest then he went for the teen dating sim approach with the age rating.

I can only and will only ever speak for myself here but the reason for my strong reaction, even in a game I don't find all that engaging, is that WiAB was supposed to be the darker and more mature VN. If Ocean is already toning it down with the incest how do you think this will affect the rest of the themes? I always assumed (perhaps wrongly) that this would feature some darker themes considering the subject matters seen so far like prison, drug dealing, pimping, gang violence, etc...

Regarding the darker themes:

- Emilio's still gotta get his tatts somewhere
- The first scene with a gang member, Willi get's violent, more violence and actual NTR seem a logical escalation.
- Drugs happened at the camping scene (and part of the Katie war before), seems likely.
- Leia talks about gun training.
- One of the WiaB store pages talks about building a criminal empire.
- We have a sister who pimps her workers, and wants Katie to whore herself to a police officer and wants Willi to seduce another police officer. We have a shadowy Asavera who runs an alternative pimping nightclub. We have the mysterious organisation who deal with creepy priests and have counsellors in the colleges.

I think the darkness is set. It's not going to be Natural Born Killers, but it might be the Untouchables. I think Willi will end up in prison for some set up by the gang or someone else but in a more surprising context than previously, the talk with Miru after the bar kinda suggests they're going a b little NBK anyway. I'm mainly excited for this side of things.

How/why on earth do they start a college/buy out a college, and why Donna ends up in the college with them (when she's almost cult like creep, eyes shall spin type)? I think it'll be a pretty good ride, with far better scenes than Marla's blanks.

 

[Maviarab]

Ocean is the greatest writer of all time.

decided to come back to us Ocean heh. Been a while, missed you man

 

[RNasc4444]

I think the darkness is set

Bob...a lot of things were set in the other game as well...and then they weren't

Nothing is ever set in stone with Ocean. Which is my only issue with him, his creative decisions. I hate all the retconning bs.

 

[BobTheDuck]

Bob...a lot of things were set in the other game as well...and then they weren't

Nothing is ever set in stone with Ocean. Which is my only issue with him, his creative decisions. I hate all the retconning bs.

Well, you also know I live in a naive state of hope I'll drink my coffee and spin theories while I wait ...and if Ocean gets us closer to the Untouchables than NBK, i'll be pretty damn satisfied.

 

[LHDLLB]

In my mind I can come up with really simple changes that would work for 5-6 different origin scenarios without needing a single new render. The question of plausibility is one of personal connection to the past story. Some people will (rightly so) feel cheated as the personalities have changed, but that is because the characters and current story/drama resonates with them. Even if Ocean writes a plausible change, the situation no longer has the same resonance. There is nothing a writer can do but make their own narrative as plausible as possible, as authentic as possible. Katie as bratty step sister is the easiest change in my mind. For other people it is narrative suicide. We're currently not judging the story on what Ocean has written, but on fear of change.

I think that when ch4 arrives, Ocean will have effectively patched the script for the first 3 chapters, leading us naturally into whatever revelations will occur when William and Leia talk. As far as there being enough drama? Hell no. More is more. If it's well written, keep me on the edge of my seat. Give me suspense, give me more engaging story. Integrate the changes so that they are part of the bedrock, not a patch. Be wholehearted and convincing. How that happens, well, we have to wait, see and hope Ocean knows what he wants to do.

The sad thing is that the expectations of supporters who were funding something going in one direction, have had that direction changed. To me that is not cool, but that is the danger of being a patron - after all, it's not ordering from Amazon.

I find it interesting that of the complaints, no one is really caring that much that Leia is confirmed as William's natual sister. It just shows how much Katie is the best girl.

Sorry, English is not my native language and sometimes I struggle to make my point. Is not fear of change that worry me, I fear that Ocean will not change the story enough. The man already reworked this story and after 3(?) years finally is done with the SG rework, I can not imagine he is keen and go back and rework -again- the story to make a nuke like William discovers that he is adopt a bedrock instead of a patch, and I don't think he should. Have them know from a young age they are adopt or have them being adopt as a 5/6 years old, there is ways that this change may even strengthen the taboo aspect of the Twins relationship,there is a number of ways to implement this change with out disrupt the flow of the story, it just happens that I think having William discovering that now, is not one of them.

About the drama I agree, I just don't think it is worth have more drama over the flow of the story. I think that Patreon took the news better than I thought it would, which is a nice thing, shows that they believe in Ocean and his view. I think that Leia is not mentioned much because she should be the least affect by the change, Helen, Katie maybe Scarlet suffers much more. That said their dynamics should change as well, just to a lesser extent.