VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [Ch. 3 Full] [Oceanlab]

[RNasc4444]

I'm not being, just stating facts you clearly do not want to accept. Patreon doesn't matter....it's not on there anymore is it? So again, can only conclude, if incest is the real issue (and he future proofing any Steam/Gog issues) and he doesn't even want any sniff of it at all (conversation or otherwise) in SG (because...Patreon)...that only leads us back to point 2.

Actually you're right. I'm not gonna delete my post and I 100% still believe and mean everything I said but the Leia issue, as it stands, provides a strong counter-argument.

There is no doubt in my mind that incest is the reason for these changes. There is no doubt in my mind that the original story involved people from SG being children of an incestuous relationship and that is why the relationships changed/are changing. Making the twins adopted simplifies things. All he has to do now is make sure that no one in either game is the biological child of both Willi and Leia.

Problem solved.

 

[BobTheDuck]

Actually you're right. I'm not gonna delete my post and I 100% still believe and mean everything I said but the Leia issue, as it stands, provides a strong counter-argument.

There is no doubt in my mind that incest is the reason for these changes. There is no doubt in my mind that the original story involved people from SG being children of an incestuous relationship and that is why the relationships changed/are changing. Making the twins adopted simplifies things. All he has to do now is make sure that no one in either game is the biological child of both Willi and Leia.

Problem solved.

I do agree with this logic, Ocean's reference to season 2 makes me think his reason is SG season 2, not WiaB S2, and possibly making Ayua a LI, with her more 'promiscuous' attire. But this is all unknown, and we'll see it play out. If the new story is compelling, I'm fine with it. Compelling can be so many different things ...mostly Katie though.

 

[Maviarab]

Compelling can be so many different things ...mostly Katie though.

Katie right now (along with Kat) is the defining reason to stay interested in this. I was a never a Leia fan anyway but if he does gut this and strike her off as a LI, it will just be another nail in the coffin of this VN...which would be a real shame.

When I start saying shit like that....you need to start worrying.

 

[RNasc4444]

Katie right now (along with Kat) is the defining reason to stay interested in this. I was a never a Leia fan anyway but if he does gut this and strike her off as a LI, it will just be another nail in the coffin of this VN...which would be a real shame.

When I start saying shit like that....you need to start worrying.

Don't think that will happen. Even Ocean must realize how strong and engaging the current dynamic is between Katie and William.

What you, Bob, myself and every other Katie fan should be worried about is her size in future renders given Ocean's tendencies to add volume to female characters. Thankfully we all know she will eventually turn out to be a normal sized/shaped, extremely hot 40 year old.

 

[BobTheDuck]

Katie right now (along with Kat) is the defining reason to stay interested in this. I was a never a Leia fan anyway but if he does gut this and strike her off as a LI, it will just be another nail in the coffin of this VN...which would be a real shame.

When I start saying shit like that....you need to start worrying.

I'm most keen on the building empire aspect, shadow ops with Miru side of things. It it's well done of course. If it goes at lease a little Natural Born Killers, I think that would still keep me engaged. Also, Daphne'sm story. I really want to know what her deal is and why Willi's moving hit's her so hard. Ocean's focused so hard on Leia being cold and remote so far, it's hard to regret what ever he does to her path right now. Katie is the only one reaaly flirting, maybe Gina. SO there's no real sexual tension except from Katie (Helen's vibe feels tacked on and like a trope).

 

[Dr.TSoni]

What you, Bob, myself and every other Katie fan should be worried about is her size in future renders given Ocean's tendencies to add volume to female characters. Thankfully we all know she will eventually turn out to be a normal sized/shaped, extremely hot 40 year old.

Before Ocean changes her

 

[LHDLLB]

I'm most keen on the building empire aspect, shadow ops with Miru side of things. It it's well done of course. If it goes at lease a little Natural Born Killers, I think that would still keep me engaged. Also, Daphne'sm story. I really want to know what her deal is and why Willi's moving hit's her so hard. Ocean's focused so hard on Leia being cold and remote so far, it's hard to regret what ever he does to her path right now. Katie is the only one reaaly flirting, maybe Gina. SO there's no real sexual tension except from Katie (Helen's vibe feels tacked on and like a trope).

You mean there is no sexual tension between William and Leia ?

 

[Darth Helmet]

Before Ocean changes her

I sensed a disturbance in the schwartz. Or is it something else thanks to that picture?

 

[BobTheDuck]

You mean there is no sexual tension between William and Leia ?

There's tension there, but it feels far more like aggression than sexual. William is only slighly flirty in a couple of moments, whereas almost every interaction with Katie has multiple moments of flirting from both sides, depending on what you choose.

 

[LHDLLB]

There's tension there, but it feels far more like aggression than sexual. William is only slighly flirty in a couple of moments, whereas almost every interaction with Katie has multiple moments of flirting from both sides, depending on what you choose.

I don't quite agree, I think that it is more of a back and forth. She is aggressive than flirty, then cold, back to aggressive. For me demonstrates that she does not know how to deal with William, how to behave because she is unsure of what she wants. But there is much sexual tension, from the pool talk at Ch1 to the police station talk in Ch3.While Kate is more constant, they are constantly teasing each other.

 

[sorco2003]

I don't quite agree, I think that it is more of a back and forth. She is aggressive than flirty, then cold, back to aggressive. For me demonstrates that she does not know how to deal with William, how to behave because she is unsure of what she wants. But there is much sexual tension, from the pool talk at Ch1 to the police station talk in Ch3.While Kate is more constant, they are constantly teasing each other.

On the one hand I can see (we really have to forget everything we think we know) what Bob says. If you take away the info that they had a love/sexual relationship, would any of that be noticeable by cutting half a scene and about 15 dialogues?

 

[LHDLLB]

On the one hand I can see (we really have to forget everything we think we know) what Bob says. If you take away the info that they had a love/sexual relationship, would any of that be noticeable by cutting half a scene and about 15 dialogues?

I really don't know. Possibly ? Is hard because I can't forget what I know, so I can't really truthfully answer the question. I think that even if I could forget what I know and Ocean changes the script, there still would be a hole in the story. Maybe it is a Theseus Ship situation, how much can a story change and still be the same story ? Remove Leia as a LI, completely changes her as a character and the story, at least from my perspective. So if Ocean decides to go this route, this interactions will not be simply
recontextualized, they will be out of place, comments like: " how does she dare takes what is mine" and others, even the frame of the scenes... I don't know if is my knowledge is tainting my view or not. As the game currently is thought, I would argue that there is plenty of sexual tension between the two, about how it will be tomorrow, only Ocean can say. And maybe not even him.

 

[sorco2003]

I really don't know. Possibly ? Is hard because I can't forget what I know, so I can't really truthfully answer the question. I think that even if I could forget what I know and Ocean changes the script, there still would be a hole in the story. Maybe it is a Theseus Ship situation, how much can a story change and still be the same story ? Remove Leia as a LI, completely changes her as a character and the story, at least from my perspective. So if Ocean decides to go this route, this interactions will not be simply
recontextualized, they will be out of place, comments like: " how does she dare takes what is mine" and others, even the frame of the scenes... I don't know if is my knowledge is tainting my view or not. As the game currently is thought, I would argue that there is plenty of sexual tension between the two, about how it will be tomorrow, only Ocean can say. And maybe not even him.

But those dialogues and interactions would not exist, the dialogues will change, maybe some scenes will change. What we mean is, it's too easy to rewrite the story so that it only seems that Leia is angry with her brother for abandoning her, and not for anything else. Anyway, we have to wait, nothing is written yet, maybe by January or February we will have the answers.

 

[Adhdclassic]

Sad things is the story is really not interesting anymore due to it being altered so much. Personally I have come to enjoy the graphics because Oceans characters are beautiful.

 

[LHDLLB]

But those dialogues and interactions would not exist, the dialogues will change, maybe some scenes will change. What we mean is, it's too easy to rewrite the story so that it only seems that Leia is angry with her brother for abandoning her, and not for anything else. Anyway, we have to wait, nothing is written yet, maybe by January or February we will have the answers.

I get that. but is not only Leia -William scenes that will have to change. Are everything that makes reference to it. It will be in essence another rebut, it will be worse than how SG S1. Or maybe not. I don't know man. We have to wait and see, as you have said.

 

[BobTheDuck]

I really don't know. Possibly ? Is hard because I can't forget what I know, so I can't really truthfully answer the question. I think that even if I could forget what I know and Ocean changes the script, there still would be a hole in the story. Maybe it is a Theseus Ship situation, how much can a story change and still be the same story ? Remove Leia as a LI, completely changes her as a character and the story, at least from my perspective. So if Ocean decides to go this route, this interactions will not be simply
recontextualized, they will be out of place, comments like: " how does she dare takes what is mine" and others, even the frame of the scenes... I don't know if is my knowledge is tainting my view or not. As the game currently is thought, I would argue that there is plenty of sexual tension between the two, about how it will be tomorrow, only Ocean can say. And maybe not even him.

But those dialogues and interactions would not exist, the dialogues will change, maybe some scenes will change. What we mean is, it's too easy to rewrite the story so that it only seems that Leia is angry with her brother for abandoning her, and not for anything else. Anyway, we have to wait, nothing is written yet, maybe by January or February we will have the answers.

This is what I'm getting at, because historically I remember old WiaB too much, so there's always a part of me that assumes William and Leia's relationship is the same as that. Take all of that away though, and we have a couple of flashbacks of William being self interested, and past Leia was the one pushing him into a relationship, while current Leia is pushing him away. There's coldness and resentment from her as her main attitude. Compare that to Katie where there is playfulness in the flirting, sometimes coldness or anger, but sometimes there are charming moments. There are no charming moments with Leia right now, nothing like that one flashback in current time. She is basically antagonistic and adversarial, always confrontational. In the scene by the pool, it feels like Leia is more trying to hurt William for his infidelities than seduce him, and that's the tension I'm finding.

The other thing at play, is that WIlliam has reverted to what he last knew of each character, and is reminding them of their previous frame of reference - ie Sven the bibi, Dana/Jabba, Katie/fish etc. He's trying to re-establish where he left off, but remember what he says at the farm about Leia seeing him as just a dumb meathead - he's got to make sure she thinks he's only chasing tail and can't think. His whole attitude with Miru is to find out, push Leia's buttons and manipulate her so he's not the one being played.

As sorco is saying, everything is early days and changing. We have to find out if Ocean is keeping Leia as a LI, what the new dynamic is. We really need chapter 4 to work these things out.

 

[LHDLLB]

This is what I'm getting at, because historically I remember old WiaB too much, so there's always a part of me that assumes William and Leia's relationship is the same as that. Take all of that away though, and we have a couple of flashbacks of William being self interested, and past Leia was the one pushing him into a relationship, while current Leia is pushing him away. There's coldness and resentment from her as her main attitude. Compare that to Katie where there is playfulness in the flirting, sometimes coldness or anger, but sometimes there are charming moments. There are no charming moments with Leia right now, nothing like that one flashback in current time. She is basically antagonistic and adversarial, always confrontational. In the scene by the pool, it feels like Leia is more trying to hurt William for his infidelities than seduce him, and that's the tension I'm finding.

I understand you, but I don't think that aggressiveness excludes sexual tension. Not uncommon they are side by side, that is why BDSM is a thing, now I am not arguing that this is what that scene entails. But Leia wanting to punishing him does not excludes a sexual tension, she pushes him away but later initiates contact. I don't know what Ocean will do, maybe remove Leia as a LI is a lot simpler than I assume. My point is that, there is plenty of sexual tension in the game, not only that but references to what they did as children, the first 3 chapters leads to the confrontation of the Twins. Now if the sexual tension existis only in my eyes because I have prior knowledge, I can't say, I don't think so. But is not a question that I am able to answer.

 

[BobTheDuck]

I understand you, but I don't think that aggressiveness excludes sexual tension. Not uncommon they are side by side, that is why BDSM is a thing, now I am not arguing that this is what that scene entails. But Leia wanting to punishing him does not excludes a sexual tension, she pushes him away but later initiates contact. I don't know what Ocean will do, maybe remove Leia as a LI is a lot simpler than I assume. My point is that, there is plenty of sexual tension in the game, not only that but references to what they did as children, the first 3 chapters leads to the confrontation of the Twins. Now if the sexual tension existis only in my eyes because I have prior knowledge, I can't say, I don't think so. But is not a question that I am able to answer.

I understand what you're saying also, but if I phrase it like this, the important relationship dynamic for the plot currently is that Leia is antagonistic to William. Katie is going between flirty and antagonistic, and this isn't really central to the plot, although it will affect it. When Katie forgets to be angry, she tries pushing William's buttons just for the hell of it, plenty of teasing both ways. With Leia, William is on guard trying to find out where he stands and Leia is a porcupine, every time she gets close I'm waiting for her to strike. Their dynamic is potentially more important to the plot than the trigger of Helen's accident.

The story implies there is unresolved business between them, 100%, but the tension can be Leia wanting to punish him, using his male 'weakness' against him (as Vanessa would say), but she could be completely uninterested in a sexual aspect of punishment, and solely interested in revenge. She says "how dare Monica take what's mine" but then tries to push William into seducing Monica. This is far more a cold strategy. The emotional outbusts at the police station and at the club feel as likely a response from an abandoned twin sister (who had a mental issue that destroyed her physical health over he twin's absence) as an abandoned LI.

There's nothing that really confirms Leia sees William as an LI right now, and from William's side, is he trying to fix his percieved guilt, or rekindle the flame? Either reading makes sense, each has its own peculiarities. I'd say that when William is talking with Dylan or on his own, and in the scene with Katie in the kitchen after the pooljob, we see calculating William, who is not an idiot. That William is there the whole time, the asshole buffoon is partially a mask (although, yes he is still an asshole at plenty of times).

 

[LHDLLB]

I understand what you're saying also, but if I phrase it like this, the important relationship dynamic for the plot currently is that Leia is antagonistic to William. Katie is going between flirty and antagonistic, and this isn't really central to the plot, although it will affect it. When Katie forgets to be angry, she tries pushing William's buttons just for the hell of it, plenty of teasing both ways. With Leia, William is on guard trying to find out where he stands and Leia is a porcupine, every time she gets close I'm waiting for her to strike. Their dynamic is potentially more important to the plot than the trigger of Helen's accident.

The story implies there is unresolved business between them, 100%, but the tension can be Leia wanting to punish him, using his male 'weakness' against him (as Vanessa would say), but she could be completely uninterested in a sexual aspect of punishment, and solely interested in revenge. She says "how dare Monica take what's mine" but then tries to push William into seducing Monica. This is far more a cold strategy. The emotional outbusts at the police station and at the club feel as likely a response from an abandoned twin sister (who had a mental issue that destroyed her physical health over he twin's absence) as an abandoned LI.

There's nothing that really confirms Leia sees William as an LI right now, and from William's side, is he trying to fix his percieved guilt, or rekindle the flame? Either reading makes sense, each has its own peculiarities. I'd say that when William is talking with Dylan or on his own, and in the scene with Katie in the kitchen after the pooljob, we see calculating William, who is not an idiot. That William is there the whole time, the asshole buffoon is partially a mask (although, yes he is still an asshole at plenty of times).

I am in a hard position because I don't disagree with you, I can understand your point of view, but I can't forget what I know to engage with it. Maybe to someone who has no knowledge, it will work just fine, maybe even better. For me thought, I can't make sense of it, none of the Leia actions from the pool scene, to Katie comments, to the exchanges between Leia and William, to Monica, to the breakingdowns none of this can work for me if Leia is not a LI with a past with William. If Ocean retcon it, I will be sad, but is his story in the end of day. I just can't say it will be the story that captivated me, because will be a different story It can be even a better one, I don't know, it just can't be the same.

 

[Turret]

I am in a hard position because I don't disagree with you, I can understand your point of view, but I can't forget what I know to engage with it. Maybe to someone who has no knowledge, it will work just fine, maybe even better. For me thought, I can't make sense of it, none of the Leia actions from the pool scene, to Katie comments, to the exchanges between Leia and William, to Monica, to the breakingdowns none of this can work for me if Leia is not a LI with a past with William. If Ocean retcon it, I will be sad, but is his story in the end of day. I just can't say it will be the story that captivated me, because will be a different story It can be even a better one, I don't know, it just can't be the same.

I agree with you 100%, that another major retcon would be a mistake. The rectcons so far are already openening up the seams of the story. Making the twins the only ones related and now possibly taking Leia of the list of LIs would transform Wiab in a dime a dozen story about a runaway returning home to his "tenants".
Wiab´s major pull are the action in the shadows, the crime story elements and yes, the relationship of Willi and Leia, where it was more the question of when and which way it happens, than if they finally come together, find a way to include Miru and have some hushed up kids for SG to explore.