VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [Ch. 3 Full] [Oceanlab]

[LHDLLB]

Not sure of the argument here other than it coming off as saying that the only reason William would return is if it was a family member going through shit. I have family that I'd sooner pour gas on than piss on to put them out if they were on fire. I have a couple friends who I'd prioritize over family in any circumstance. I'd go to hell and back to help them, regardless of the personal risks.

Someone going mute is the result of severe psychological trauma. My eldest sister went through such a period. That's enough to get you there bc that sort of damage can be just as dangerous as physical trauma. The fact that it's the result of a crime is enough justification to keep you there. Now, the trauma just has to justify Helen becoming mute. And if Helen is going to be a LI, that relationship will have to be redefined. Summer's Gone has the benefit of clarifying Nami isn't related biologically and leaving the rest completely vague. At least in regards to the legal terminology that would fire off the red flags.

I agree w/ your comment about Katie. And to clarify, my position is this story can easily be told w/o incest. The problem is, the original exists. The closer we get to certain events repeating, the more necessary it becomes for Ocean to spell things out. Waiting until the end isn't an option bc it would be too easy for an unhappy fan to nuke the project again. Waiting until the end is not an option here. You're talking tens of thousands of fans actively choosing NOT to be cancerous assholes just once for YEARS for us to reach the end of this story. That's an irrational level of faith in humanity.

Now he has clarify that they may have different parents, before S1, even that was ambiguous and before I don't think it was defined. But I agree that is much easier in SG to muddle the waters than it is here, even if the intent is pretty clear. Regarding WiaB, I also agree that the more clear he is the better, problem is that he has not a reccord of being clear

 

[RNasc4444]

Not sure of the argument here other than it coming off as saying that the only reason William would return is if it was a family member going through shit. I have family that I'd sooner pour gas on than piss on to put them out if they were on fire. I have a couple friends who I'd prioritize over family in any circumstance. I'd go to hell and back to help them, regardless of the personal risks.

Understandable. And I did mention that there are always exceptions. But my point still stands. There is an implied duty and obligation when it comes to family that simply isn't there otherwise. And remember, William was not happy whatsoever to get that call or to return to Wollust. If he does, there HAS to be a damn good reason for it.

I agree w/ your comment about Katie. And to clarify, my position is this story can easily be told w/o incest. The problem is, the original exists. The closer we get to certain events repeating, the more necessary it becomes for Ocean to spell things out. Waiting until the end isn't an option bc it would be too easy for an unhappy fan to nuke the project again. Waiting until the end is not an option here. You're talking tens of thousands of fans actively choosing NOT to be cancerous assholes just once for YEARS for us to reach the end of this story. That's an irrational level of faith in humanity.

I agree that the story can be told without incest. Whether Ocean can do it or not is a different matter. What you can't argue against is that the game up to this point was literally based around family dynamics. There is nothing else to it. Cut off the family element and you're left with what exactly? Landlords and tenants? Roommates and childhood friends? It's not the same thing.

Also agree with you and it's a point of contention between me and yossa999. He is fine with Ocean making whatever retcons and changes necessary throughout the development of the game. I, on the other hand, think it's an awful and unsustainable way to tell a story. Imagine Tolkien spending 15 opening chapters describing hobbits and The Shire as we know them to midway through the story suddenly change hobbits into 10 foot tall skeleton-like creatures and The Shire as a desolate wasteland.

 

[yossa999]

Understandable. And I did mention that there are always exceptions. But my point still stands. There is an implied duty and obligation when it comes to family that simply isn't there otherwise. And remember, William was not happy whatsoever to get that call or to return to Wollust. If he does, there HAS to be a damn good reason for it.


I agree that the story can be told without incest. Whether Ocean can do it or not is a different matter. What you can't argue against is that the game up to this point was literally based around family dynamics. There is nothing else to it. Cut off the family element and you're left with what exactly? Landlords and tenants? Roommates and childhood friends? It's not the same thing.

Also agree with you and it's a point of contention between me and yossa999. He is fine with Ocean making whatever retcons and changes necessary throughout the development of the game. I, on the other hand, think it's an awful and unsustainable way to tell a story. Imagine Tolkien spending 15 opening chapters describing hobbits and The Shire as we know them to midway through the story suddenly change hobbits into 10 foot tall skeleton-like creatures and The Shire as a desolate wasteland.

I kind of gave you an example of the family dynamic: Vito Corleone, Santino Corleone, and Tom Hagen. I don't remember if it was explicitly shown in the movie, but in the book, Tom was kind of a street kid, and Santino brought him into their home, treated him like his brother and Vito let him stay, and accepted him as his son, although officially, as far as I remember, there was no guardianship or adoption.

It is clear that the concept of "family" is quite specific in the Godfather, but the Zanes are also not quite ordinary. So Willie, without further ado, rushed home to help Helen when Leia called, just as Tom would have done for Vito, even though the Irish kid probably didn't have a drop of Italian blood in his veins, and much less Corleone blood, which seems to be the deciding factor for you in this "unique family dynamics" of yours.

Now about the retcons. Do you really not understand that the game started when the rules weren't as strict (at least not as strictly enforced) as they are now, and many developers had to adapt their games to the changed rules? What do you prefer to play, the dead Life Happened or the live WiAB? Why this shitty argument over and over again, "haha, the landlady's tenant, what a bad writing". That's one thing.

Secondly, fuck, if I could even understand what the old WiAB was about. Just a mosaic of barely connected events, characters and weird conversations between them. I came to WiAB after SG and thought, "Seriously? The developer of SG made this shit? This was probably his first attempt at AVNs." It wasn't until the lake scene that some parts of the story started to make sense to me, although it was still very rough. And it wasn't until chapter six that I could watch it without my eyes bleeding.

Some people come to the development of AVN with writing experience or storytelling skills, some learn in the process. If you think Ocean started WiAB with a solid background in writing novels and scripts, reread his old posts, he was learning as he went along. So the plot changed along with his own evolutions. I partially agree that most of us would probably lock in a certain version and not change it anymore, no matter how much we wanted to. For example, such a strong connection between WiAB and SG in the last chapters is clearly a late addition, I don't think he originally planned anything more than maybe mentioning characters from another game and maybe a few cameos that don't affect the plot.

Well, accept it or find something more in line with your vision of how the game should be developed. Or, even better, create your own and show them all how to do it right. Or don't do it and keep complaining.
You definitely won't impress Ocean with this, the dude is pretty stubborn, otherwise these games would have been abandoned long ago after all the ups and downs.
For example, I’m quite curious in how the guy will get out of the plot knots that he himself tied. So far he entertained me with his games so I'm okay with the changes.

And the most important thing about retcons. I'm too lazy to look for the post, it was here in the zone, although about SG. Ocean basically promised that there would be retcons over retcons.
He said something like: "Some things that seem like make no sense now will become clear later, as the plot progresses. Moreover, some current events will acquire additional meaning or even change it."

P.S. Fuck you for making me to look for the exact quote:

[...]Weird, unexplainable behavior is supposed to happen... Because at some point, far deeper in the story, the pieces will align and a light bulb will go off.

It will change the meaning of entire scenes that were three, seven, or fourteen Chapters ago.

And this doesn't just apply to Nami.
It affects pretty much every character. Many of them have quirks the players see as weird, unreasonable behavior.

And that's because most of it hasn't been explained yet. (And most of it won't be explained in detailed words, but a lot of hints, etc. will be dropped that give you a deeper insight into a character's motives & desires.)

If you think that you didn't sign up for this when you signed up for this thread - run, Forest, run!

 

[John972]

Because he CAN have his cake and eat it too. That story was very specifically written to avoid hangups by never addressing the legal status of their relationship. He DOES very clearly and repeatedly address they aren't biologically related, but there is no open discussion of adoption or foster care specifically. There is also never any discussion of what their relationship would be, tending to use their name and implication of that persons role in the others life. The American payment processors would be forced to try to argue the spirit of the law in a situation the water is as murky as a bog. And feel it necessary to single out a very specific game out of the thousands w/o justification.

There is no comparison to what he did in WiAB where he originally openly stated they were related.

I think he's going to have to spell out the changes in this case bc the original still exists and got him in trouble. If he doesn't, all it would take is some asshole reporting a render from the first version with a sexual render from the second version and WiAB gets nuked all over again. No one takes the time to do the research over this sort of thing, so Ocean needs proof of the negative in this case to protect the project. Or else he's going to eventually realize he's left himself to the mercy of a hoard of unhappy patrons who might just decide to blow it all up bc updates are taking too long on Summer's Gone.

In SG, Ocean left some dialogue in there that still acts like a nod, nod, wink, wink.

Nika is asked TWICE why Cheeto is a redhead.

The very CLEAR inference here is that the person asking the question assumes Nika and Cheeto are biologically related, hence they ask why does Nami have red hair when Nika has black hair. There is simply no other reason to ask such a question.

Does Nika answer unequivocally that, hey, we're not related? No, he doesn't.

Those two sequences of dialogue were left ambiguous and in the game, even after the rework.

Do you really think Ocean has the financial resources to go after the "payment processors"? If, for any reason, Ocean or any other AVN Dev loose their income streams because of future third-party provider bans, there is very little they can do about it.

Now he has clarify that they may have different parents, before S1, even that was ambiguous and before I don't think it was defined. But I agree that is much easier in SG to muddle the waters than it is here, even if the intent is pretty clear. Regarding WiaB, I also agree that the more clear he is the better, problem is that he has not a reccord of being clear

I think an added complication is one we cannot gauge. How important is it to the overall story, for example, that William be a Zane - be blood related to at least Helen and Dylan? Only Ocean can answer that because only Ocean knows how the plot/story advances beyond what he's made public up to Ch 3. Leia and Katie not being Zane's is already out because of their integration into SG Season 1.

I acknowledge that there are several things in the current plot that don't work if William isn't blood related. For example, the inference that William was always Helen's favorite child is unrealistic if he isn't blood (unless Helen is a colossal pervert who likes young boys. Umm, let's not go there).

In terms of relationships, the three "siblings" (Leia, Kate, William) can have a deep, complicated family-like relationship without necessarily all being blood-related, provided they were all brought up for most of their childhoods under the same roof. That much is possible and I know this from personal experience. [EDIT: ... and yossa999 gives an excellent expansion on this subject of non-blood family ties here: https://f95zone.to/threads/where-it-all-began-ch-3-full-oceanlab.19856/post-15994348]

You are right, Ocean doesn't have a good record for being unambiguous...

 

[LHDLLB]

I kind of gave you an example of the family dynamic: Vito Corleone, Santino Corleone, and Tom Hagen. I don't remember if it was explicitly shown in the movie, but in the book, Tom was kind of a street kid, and Santino brought him into their home, treated him like his brother and Vito let him stay, and accepted him as his son, although officially, as far as I remember, there was no guardianship or adoption.

It is clear that the concept of "family" is quite specific in the Godfather, but the Zanes are also not quite ordinary. So Willie, without further ado, rushed home to help Helen when Leia called, just as Tom would have done for Vito, even though the Irish kid probably didn't have a drop of Italian blood in his veins, and much less Corleone blood, which seems to be the deciding factor for you in this "unique family dynamics" of yours.

Now about the retcons. Do you really not understand that the game started when the rules weren't as strict (at least not as strictly enforced) as they are now, and many developers had to adapt their games to the changed rules? What do you prefer to play, the dead Life Happened or the live WiAB? Why this shitty argument over and over again, "haha, the landlady's tenant, what a bad writing". That's one thing.

Secondly, fuck, if I could even understand what the old WiAB was about. Just a mosaic of barely connected events, characters and weird conversations between them. I came to WiAB after SG and thought, "Seriously? The developer of SG made this shit? This was probably his first attempt at AVNs." It wasn't until the lake scene that some parts of the story started to make sense to me, although it was still very rough. And it wasn't until chapter six that I could watch it without my eyes bleeding.

Some people come to the development of AVN with writing experience or storytelling skills, some learn in the process. If you think Ocean started WiAB with a solid background in writing novels and scripts, reread his old posts, he was learning as he went along. So the plot changed along with his own evolutions. I partially agree that most of us would probably lock in a certain version and not change it anymore, no matter how much we wanted to. For example, such a strong connection between WiAB and SG in the last chapters is clearly a late addition, I don't think he originally planned anything more than maybe mentioning characters from another game and maybe a few cameos that don't affect the plot.

Well, accept it or find something more in line with your vision of how the game should be developed. Or, even better, create your own and show them all how to do it right. Or don't do it and keep complaining.
You definitely won't impress Ocean with this, the dude is pretty stubborn, otherwise these games would have been abandoned long ago after all the ups and downs.
For example, I’m quite curious in how the guy will get out of the plot knots that he himself tied. So far he entertained me with his games so I'm okay with the changes.

And the most important thing about retcons. I'm too lazy to look for the post, it was here in the zone, although about SG. Ocean basically promised that there would be retcons over retcons.
He said something like: "Some things that seem like make no sense now will become clear later, as the plot progresses. Moreover, some current events will acquire additional meaning or even change it."

P.S. Fuck you for making me to look for the exact quote:


If you think that you didn't sign up for this when you signed up for this thread - run, Forest, run!

That is the thing that I and I bealive Rensc444 are talking to. It matter less if William is blood or not, matters most is if they see each other as family or not. William need to be blood related to Helen ? No. Does he need to see her as family ? I think he does. Problem is, does not being blood related and still family is enough to appease ToS ? Maybe. In Goodfather Tom was family, but he also was not a made man. It was clear that by the fact he was not italian he could not be member of the family. Does William or Leia was not fully accepted ? The discussion about incest in secondary here. But to say that family drama is not part of the story is ludicrous, and you can't have family drama with your landlady.

Have new information changing the meaning of a scene is not retcon, is a twist. Retcon is you changing the scene altogether. Exemple. We learn that Nojiko omitted that she knew Amber, this is a twist that changes how we perceive Amber, Nojiko and their "first" meeting. Having the jacuzzi scene edited after the fact is a retcon, removing the gun is a retcon, changing the bar opening night is a retcon, change the dynamics in WiaB is a retcon. Is not new information given new meaning, is changing the information.

 

[John972]

That's what I'm talking about, you can change the story however you want until the game is over. Just put this conversation at the end of the game, make it a flashback and voila! All the plot holes are explained and it's clear as day why Nami is red.

While neither here nor there, I did have the thought (following recent discussion here) of: what would happen if one presented the entire sequence of current WIAB game renders to a LLM AI client and asked it to write a game plot and dialogues based on the visual content of the renders? That led to the "Tiger Lily" reference, because the result would more or less to be the same, provided the LLM could handle the challenge.

EDIT: for any readers who do not understand the "Tiger Lily" reference...

"What's up, Tiger Lily?" was a movie released by American director Woody Allen in the Sixties. To make the movie, Allen took (with permission) a nondescript Japanese movie in the Japanese language and overdubbed it in the English language with a comical script of his own making that had nothing to do with the original Japanese story. He wrote his script based solely on the visuals in the original movie.

The inference here is that if Ocean were to completely retcon WIAB to remove certain elements and themes before Steam release, then the "evil modder" would have a lot of work rewriting the script to create a mod taking WIAB back to its original intent and themes. In other words, the "evil modder" would have to "Tiger Lily" the shit out of the scripts to create a workable mod.

 

[sorco2003]

I need chapter four to come out. In the meantime I will keep reading you all, you are making this thread the funniest, most coherent and on topic of all F95.

 

[LHDLLB]

you are making this thread the funniest, most coherent and on topic of all F95.
View attachment 4474343

I belive the first part. I real doubt the second

 

[sorco2003]

I belive the first part. I real doubt the second

Let's analyze:
Fun? yes, the back and forth is very good.
More coherent? I think so, I don't see anyone going out of their speech, their positions and ideas (and no one is saying alien barbarities either).
On topic? yes, we all talk about WIAB and its history, a necessary breath of fresh air I will say.

 

[yossa999]

But to say that family drama is not part of the story is ludicrous, and you can't have family drama with your landlady.

What about family drama with the woman who raised you and cared for you for all of your entire life but wasn't the one who gave you a birth?

And we are slowly getting back to the incest topic, because the only thing that raises questions is why sex between Leia and William is taboo. Well I live it to Ocean, I'm not a storyteller.

Have new information changing the meaning of a scene is not retcon, is a twist. Retcon is you changing the scene altogether. Exemple. We learn that Nojiko omitted that she knew Amber, this is a twist that changes how we perceive Amber, Nojiko and their "first" meeting. Having the jacuzzi scene edited after the fact is a retcon, removing the gun is a retcon, changing the bar opening night is a retcon, change the dynamics in WiaB is a retcon. Is not new information given new meaning, is changing the information.

Semantics. I call it an unfinished story in the making.
But if you want to define the concepts, then your retcon is different from mine, because I use this definition:

retcon
/ˈrɛtkɒn/

noun

1. (in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.

verb

1. revise (an aspect of a fictional work) retrospectively, typically by introducing a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.

Exactly what Ocean was talking about in the post I've quoted.

 

[sorco2003]

What about family drama with the woman who raised you and cared for you for all of your entire life but wasn't the one who gave you a birth?

And we are slowly getting back to the incest topic, because the only thing that raises questions is why sex between Leia and William is taboo. Well I live it to Ocean, I'm not a storyteller.


Semantics. I call it an unfinished story in the making.
But if you want to define the concepts, then your retcon is different from mine, because I use this definition:

Exactly what Ocean was talking about in the post I've quoted.

I use this one:
Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is a literary device in which facts in the world of a fictional work that have been established through the narrative itself are adjusted, ignored, supplemented, or contradicted by a subsequently published work that recontextualizes or breaks continuity with the former.

 

[John972]

I need chapter four to come out. In the meantime I will keep reading you all, you are making this thread the funniest, most coherent and on topic of all F95.
View attachment 4474343

The beauty of both this an the SG thread is that sometime in the future we will all learn either how much we were spot on with our musings or how completely wide of the mark we were. Those are gonna be fun days. To be honest, I wouldn't mind getting some "egg on my face" provided future revelations are both surprising and ultimately pleasing.

 

[yossa999]

I use this one:
Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is a literary device in which facts in the world of a fictional work that have been established through the narrative itself are adjusted, ignored, supplemented, or contradicted by a subsequently published work that recontextualizes or breaks continuity with the former.

So, in the other words, something in the story happens later that change the meaning of "entire scenes that were three, seven, or fourteen Chapters ago."
Thanks bro, your help is the most appreciated.

 

[LHDLLB]

What about family drama with the woman who raised you and cared for you for all of your entire life but wasn't the one who gave you a birth?

And we are slowly getting back to the incest topic, because the only thing that raises questions is why sex between Leia and William is taboo. Well I live it to Ocean, I'm not a storyteller.


Semantics. I call it an unfinished story in the making.
But if you want to define the concepts, then your retcon is different from mine, because I use this definition:

Exactly what Ocean was talking about in the post I've quoted.

Well I would say that this woman is something of my mother and thus my family. But we don't know if this is the route Ocean will go, and if it is why this is less problematic than the original.

I guess you can use the definition you want. Still would say they are very different things.

 

[sorco2003]

The beauty of both this an the SG thread is that sometime in the future we will all learn either how much we were spot on with our musings or how completely wide of the mark we were. Those are gonna be fun days. To be honest, I wouldn't mind getting some "egg on my face" provided future revelations are both surprising and ultimately pleasing.

Luckily it won't be long now. I say June (I'm sticking with my hunch) and Chapter 4 will shine on Steam!

 

[sorco2003]

So, in the other words, something in the story happens later that change the meaning of "entire scenes that were three, seven, or fourteen Chapters ago."
Thanks bro, your help is the most appreciated.

"something introduce into the story"
Basically it is a difference of precept, the story brings information or the author modifies the information.
In practice you would say it's the same, but it's not, since the retcon can make a straight character that was shown in an orgy with 15 women, be homosexual and always was...
The only retcon that was in SG was Nami/MC... ah no sorry, Bella's sister too. Then when the rework was done it doesn't count as a retcon anymore.

 

[yossa999]

Well I would say that this woman is something of my mother and thus my family.

That's Helen for William, but they are not blood related.

But we don't know if this is the route Ocean will go

That's why I've been holding back as much as I can from this discussion.
There's no point in arguing about it until CH4 comes out and we see where the story goes and what changes will (or won't) happen.

I guess you can use the definition you want. Still would say they are very different things.

Yeah, I know that I can But I was talking about the Ocean's quote not about the editing the SG script for the public release on Stream. This is not a retcon, this is editing. The director decided to cut something from what was filmed earlier, to re-shoot some scenes. It happens.

 

[RNasc4444]

If you think that you didn't sign up for this when you signed up for this thread - run, Forest, run!

Oh pls I live for this shit! I enjoy having these discussions.
If I wanted 50 daily pages of nothing but waifu wars I'd be in BaDIK's thread or most of the off-topics here.

 

[Maviarab]

The beauty of both this an the SG thread is that sometime in the future we will all learn either how much we were spot on with our musings or how completely wide of the mark we were. Those are gonna be fun days. To be honest, I wouldn't mind getting some "egg on my face" provided future revelations are both surprising and ultimately pleasing.

Well, I for one am not so conceited to be shouting out to people....I told you so!

 

[yossa999]

"something introduce into the story"
Basically it is a difference of precept, the story brings information or the author modifies the information.
In practice you would say it's the same, but it's not, since the retcon can make a straight character that was shown in an orgy with 15 women, be homosexual and always was...
The only retcon that was in SG was Nami/MC... ah no sorry, Bella's sister too. Then when the rework was done it doesn't count as a retcon anymore.

Now let's argue about semantics. Modifying information means: adding, removing or changing its parts. So the story brings new information only when the author modifies it, otherwise this new information cannot appear from nowhere.


Now let's back on topic. Update when?