VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [S1 Ch.4 Fix 1 Steam] [Oceanlab]

[sorco2003]

We keep going around this. "The game doesn't make sense without incest" but Helen losing her voice or the spider does? Free pass for losing the voice. Original version, Willi being sent to regular prison before trial? Where's the presumption of innocence? And of course Miru never made sense as a LI until the remake. There was no love, only pain.

But sure everything makes sense when you add incest. Willi will totally run home for Helen having lost her voice then.

Keep in mind that the redacted devlog spoke about how Ocean continues to thell the story he wants to tell without it being a problem. Some of his problems were not just patreon, but the fact that some relationships felt fake to him. If he isn't persuaded and puts it out, it'll be worse than if he doesn't alter things.

Right now we're in limbo/free fall waiting for Ch4, and we'll see if Ocean pulls off a great segue into the new plot ...or not. I'm more interested in Donna's plot line as far as the story goes, and those spider ninjas who throw eightlegged monstrousities rather than 4 sides stars.

I mean, how hard would it be for Helen to have been hospitalised, William takes a week to organise enough of his shit to goand arrives the day Helen is released from hospital and is back home, missing her voice? That would be incredibly easy, a could more renders and a few dialogue changes and it becomes believeable.

I'm going to see where it goes - the original devlog wasn't anywhere near as grim as everyone has built it up in their mind. It simply mentioned who IS related. But, now we play the waiting game to find out why it was redacted, and we fear the most boring outcome.

The important realisation to me is that trying to keep it as it was prerework, also had it's own shit sandwiches. Less shit sandwiches, and Dana's our landlady, confirmed.

I understand the desire to debate and say everyone else is wrong , but, Krytax is not talking about incest, he is talking about the new WIAB (yes this new one, not the old one, he never talked about the old one) starting out as a family drama.
He even says in his many interventions that he thinks it works best keeping Dylan and Helen as parents, without Helen being LI or lewdable, removing Leia from the LI's and making Katie a true "childhood friend".
At this point we are truly all debating different things without wanting to give a toss.
And that's nice, because it's entertaining.


you missed the coffee Bob

 

[BobTheDuck]

I understand the desire to debate and say everyone else is wrong , but, Krytax is not talking about incest, he is talking about the new WIAB (yes this new one, not the old one, he never talked about the old one) starting out as a family drama.
He even says in his many interventions that he thinks it works best keeping Dylan and Helen as parents, without Helen being LI or lewdable, removing Leia from the LI's and making Katie a true "childhood friend".
At this point we are truly all debating different things without wanting to give a toss.
And that's nice, because it's entertaining.


you missed the coffee Bob

View attachment 4470414

It's too hot here, I've only been doing cold brew. I'm also pointing out that the story with incest still doesn't make huge sense, but no one ever considers Willi should just send Helen to a speech therapist and stay in his city.

The basic premise is Leia manipulates him to come back to Wollust, keeps info from him makes it sound dramatic, and he gets there to find Helen overdosed on helium or something? Her voice is so high only dogs can hear it?

Family or not family, it doesn't make sense, but we all suspended our disbelief until the promised tags got threatened. So I don't think I've misunderstood. It's actually a game about how Willi turned to a life of crime because he didn't get his Monster Basher Brutal 3000, so he had no way to express himself to an uncaring world. He creampied Mon as a way to get back at Leia not getting him the '3000.

As plausible as anything else, currently. So yeah, let's get Ocean more coffee? It is a stimulant after all, maybe Ch4 will appear sooner and we'll have new things to not give a toss about

 

[dan_roger69]

Yes, but between the two, do you choose the one that gives you less money?

Between the two I would choose which will give me long term income and stability rather than short term. Ocean has said a few times he doesn't care about the money. There are several Devs who were forced to move to Subscribstar cos Patreon shutdown their account and have regained subs/income they lost in a few months.

 

[sorco2003]

It's too hot here, I've only been doing cold brew. I'm also pointing out that the story with incest still doesn't make huge sense, but no one ever considers Willi should just send Helen to a speech therapist and stay in his city.

The basic premise is Leia manipulates him to come back to Wollust, keeps info from him makes it sound dramatic, and he gets there to find Helen overdosed on helium or something? Her voice is so high only dogs can hear it?

Family or not family, it doesn't make sense, but we all suspended our disbelief until the promised tags got threatened. So I don't think I've misunderstood. It's actually a game about how Willi turned to a life of crime because he didn't get his Monster Basher Brutal 3000, so he had no way to express himself to an uncaring world. He creampied Mon as a way to get back at Leia not getting him the '3000.

As plausible as anything else, currently. So yeah, let's get Ocean more coffee? It is a stimulant after all, maybe Ch4 will appear sooner and we'll have new things to not give a toss about

Well, yes, WIAB makes no sense, its premises are less than quicksand and it is poorly written to boot. So, out of all this mess you are uncovering, why are you so sensitive to the fact that others have chosen family drama as common ground?

 

[Maviarab]

you missed the coffee Bob

View attachment 4470414

*steals coffee*

It's too hot here,

Take that back right now. Never too hot for coffee! Amateur!

 

[Krytax123]

It's too hot here, I've only been doing cold brew. I'm also pointing out that the story with incest still doesn't make huge sense, but no one ever considers Willi should just send Helen to a speech therapist and stay in his city.

The basic premise is Leia manipulates him to come back to Wollust, keeps info from him makes it sound dramatic, and he gets there to find Helen overdosed on helium or something? Her voice is so high only dogs can hear it?

Uhm, maybe thats where we see things differently.

There is no hint that Leia "manipulated" Willy to come back as far as im aware, at no point Willy is like "well you overdramatized this, why am i even here?", he is very concerened about Helen's state.

I think your sister calling you after years saying "Well something is really wrong with mom and we need you here" is a very valid reason and logic.

This would make sense when its your mom, youre concered about and change your life 180° for it, but not for a random person who couldnt even be bothered to adopt you as an orphan

 

[sorco2003]

Between the two I would choose which will give me long term income and stability rather than short term. Ocean has said a few times he doesn't care about the money. There are several Devs who were forced to move to Subscribstar cos Patreon shutdown their account and have regained subs/income they lost in a few months.

Ocean doesn't care about the money WIAB makes, he works from this, without his income from the SG patreon he should find a job on the side.
Many months have passed and of the 500+ patreons that WIAB used to have, less than 20% of them have switched to SS.
And there are many examples where those who lost patreon never managed to have the same numbers in SS, and there are only a few exceptions to the rule...

 

[RNasc4444]

So I don't think I've misunderstood.

I think you actually did Bob. No one was questioning Stay Puft's illness. I'm giving as much of a pass on that as so many other things. What I was questioning is why William would return. Specifically why would he return to a place he doesn't want to go to and see people he didn't want to see for any reason other than them being family? He just wouldn't.

If my sister told me something was wrong with my mother I would come running as fast as I could. If my sister told me that something is wrong with my not-mother I would tell her to take my not-mother to the doctor and keep me updated. That's the difference. That is why the family bond matters. You have a duty to family that you don't have to others. That is assuming you're not a huge piece of shit or the family are huge pieces of shit that wronged you in the worst way possible. There are exceptions of course.

There is a difference between someone that is your own flesh and blood and someone that is not. If you somehow cannot grasp this...I honestly don't know what to do. Just know that your perception on this matter is utterly alien to me.

 

[yossa999]

Yossa? Is that you?
[...]

Nah, I barely participate, dropping by sometimes to skim through your unspeakably boring back and forth over the "R-U-I-N-E-D" loop.

We all know how it's going to be. Ocean will change everything he wants. You guys will write yet another hundred "Ruined! This game is dead. Nothing makes sense!" posts. Or maybe two hundred.
Probably a dozen or so... how should I put it... dissatisfied customers will announce their departure, maybe even in all caps.

You'll then go back to discussing how Helen's boobs have gotten even bigger in the current chapter and how we're all going to die before the game is completed.

 

[BobTheDuck]

*steals coffee*

Take that back right now. Never too hot for coffee! Amateur!

I'm reminded of the quote - "There's no such thing as strong coffee, only weak people" I did have three large glasses of cold brew filter made from SO beans. So.... I still think we need to get Ocean more coffee.

Uhm, maybe thats where we see things differently.

There is no hint that Leia "manipulated" Willy to come back as far as im aware, at no point Willy is like "well you overdramatized this, why am i even here?", he is very concerened about Helen's state.

I think your sister calling you after years saying "Well something is really wrong with mom and we need you here" is a very valid reason and logic.

This would make sense when its your mom, youre concered about and change your life 180° for it, but not for a random person who couldnt even be bothered to adopt you as an orphan

Play the opening scene with the phone call. Willi keeps asking questions that Leia doesn't answer, but eventually she says "I need you", not "Helen needs you".

l "Something has happened... Helen had an accident."
scene aac519 with vpunch
d "What?!"
d "Is- she okay?"
scene aac520 with dssa
l "I need you to come back."
scene aac521 with vpunch
d "LEIA! Is Helen okay?!"
l "She's alive."
scene aac522 with dssa
d "*relieved sigh*. Thank god."
d "Is there anythi-"
l "I need you... right now."
scene aac523 with dssa
d "...Alright I- I'll come."
scene aac385 with dssb
l "That was much easier than I thought.."
l "It seems like you were playing with that thought for a while now.."

Leia used her need to guilt trip him, Helen's situation is the overt excuse - after all she waited 3 weeks to call him? Willi's asking about Helen though, and Leia just misdirects to her need of him. It's more that she DOESN"T answer Willi's question until he shouts at her. Leia also never says what's wrong, because Willi probably wouldn't move back to see if Helen's lost her voice. Right now, it could be anything, Helen could be in hospital, William's mind has been played to think almost the worst. What kind of answer is "she's alive?"

I think you actually did Bob. No one was questioning Stay Puft's illness. I'm giving as much of a pass on that as so many other things. What I was questioning is why William would return. Specifically why would he return to a place he doesn't want to go to and see people he didn't want to see for any reason other than them being family? He just wouldn't.

If my sister told me something was wrong with my mother I would come running as fast as I could. If my sister told me that something is wrong with my not-mother I would tell her to take my not-mother to the doctor and keep me updated. That's the difference. That is why the family bond matters. You have a duty to family that you don't have to others. That is assuming you're not a huge piece of shit or the family are huge pieces of shit that wronged you in the worst way possible. There are exceptions of course.

There is a difference between someone that is your own flesh and blood and someone that is not. If you somehow cannot grasp this...I honestly don't know what to do. Just know that your perception on this matter is utterly alien to me.

Nah, I totally agree with what you're saying - I'm pointing out that there's a lot of other things that don't make sense going on, but this particular one is the sticking point. Ocean could easily up the stakes. Also, from the old devlog, if it's to be believed, it was about who is actually related, not that they're not a family unit. That's why we have to see what plays out.

The urgency of an accident for someone you care about (as evidenced by William's reaction) verses steplandlady's voice is lost is big. If my mom lost her voice I'd be calling Dylan and asking what's going on, does he think the shock of me being back would help or freak Helen out more? Leia as I've said, obscures the reason for wanting Willi back. By all intents, that should stay the same, maybe just not as an LI, or maybe? We're left guessing.

Arguing that family is the only reason the story makes sense when we don't know what the change to the family unit is, is crying that the sky is falling. Let's wait to see it crash or see if Ocean's made it more compelling by focusing it on what maybe matters to his idea of the story.

Yes, I'm okay with having faith that Ocean wants to keep making it. If it sucks, he'll have significantly more backlash than a tardy update.

 

[RNasc4444]

Arguing that family is the only reason the story makes sense when we don't know what the change to the family unit is, is crying that the sky is falling. Let's wait to see it crash or see if Ocean's made it more compelling by focusing it on what maybe matters to his idea of the story.

Yes, I'm okay with having faith that Ocean wants to keep making it. If it sucks, he'll have significantly more backlash than a tardy update.

Agreed! And I had, until today, avoided dwelling on this topic again because it's pointless until Ocean clears it up (hopefully) with the next update.

What my entire point was is that right now, at this moment WiAB is heavily reliant on family dynamics. So much so that I argue it's the only thing there is in the game. All other possible plot points are underdeveloped. So when Ocean dropped that bomb it's only natural to be a doomer. That literally blows up what little there is of a premise/plot in this AVN at this point.

 

[LHDLLB]

I'm reminded of the quote - "There's no such thing as strong coffee, only weak people" I did have three large glasses of cold brew filter made from SO beans. So.... I still think we need to get Ocean more coffee.



Play the opening scene with the phone call. Willi keeps asking questions that Leia doesn't answer, but eventually she says "I need you", not "Helen needs you".



Leia used her need to guilt trip him, Helen's situation is the overt excuse - after all she waited 3 weeks to call him? Willi's asking about Helen though, and Leia just misdirects to her need of him. It's more that she DOESN"T answer Willi's question until he shouts at her. Leia also never says what's wrong, because Willi probably wouldn't move back to see if Helen's lost her voice. Right now, it could be anything, Helen could be in hospital, William's mind has been played to think almost the worst. What kind of answer is "she's alive?"



Nah, I totally agree with what you're saying - I'm pointing out that there's a lot of other things that don't make sense going on, but this particular one is the sticking point. Ocean could easily up the stakes. Also, from the old devlog, if it's to be believed, it was about who is actually related, not that they're not a family unit. That's why we have to see what plays out.

The urgency of an accident for someone you care about (as evidenced by William's reaction) verses steplandlady's voice is lost is big. If my mom lost her voice I'd be calling Dylan and asking what's going on, does he think the shock of me being back would help or freak Helen out more? Leia as I've said, obscures the reason for wanting Willi back. By all intents, that should stay the same, maybe just not as an LI, or maybe? We're left guessing.

Arguing that family is the only reason the story makes sense when we don't know what the change to the family unit is, is crying that the sky is falling. Let's wait to see it crash or see if Ocean's made it more compelling by focusing it on what maybe matters to his idea of the story.

Yes, I'm okay with having faith that Ocean wants to keep making it. If it sucks, he'll have significantly more backlash than a tardy update.

I agree that the reason we feel so bad about the situation is that Ocean did not told the new paradigm. We are at a limbo and each ones mind goes to the worst outcome, I don't think that they need to be blood related, but I do think they need to be a family unit or the story needs to change futher son that it all makes sense.

As long as thing make sense I don't care much if there is incest or not. What troubles me about the change is the lost of trust, right now I trust Ocean a lot less about the stories that he wants to tell. And given the devlog I am inclined to belive he will go SG approach and make everything muddled and ambiguous so nothing is really clear and asks us to not to think about it too much. Can't say that I love that. but I am not hoping this will be the chapter where everything will make sense.

 

[RNasc4444]

Nah, I barely participate, dropping by sometimes to skim through your unspeakably boring back and forth over the "R-U-I-N-E-D" loop.

We all know how it's going to be. Ocean will change everything he wants. You guys will write yet another hundred "Ruined! This game is dead. Nothing makes sense!" posts. Or maybe two hundred.
Probably a dozen or so... how should I put it... dissatisfied customers will announce their departure, maybe even in all caps.

You'll then go back to discussing how Helen's boobs have gotten even bigger in the current chapter and how we're all going to die before the game is completed.

I mean...we would have other topics to discuss if Ocean had dropped an update to this game in the past year....

But you're right. This shit goes in loops. You're great at memeing and pointing out looping topics but you're quite bad at providing counter arguments to any flaws that are discussed. As evidenced by your dismissal of the points we're discussing as incest fetishism. That doesn't make you smart. It shows you either don't care about the story making a lick of sense or are too intellectually limited to provide a valid counter argument.

 

[Winterstale]

Ocean has a get out jail free card. Is a fictitious world, is a inconcistence easly dealt with.




I say it as a good thing, I don't get the feeling that he is concern with our opinion, don't beat yourself with it. I don't know if the Steam is this saving grace, the problem I think is the NTR, for those who like it, it has too little, for those who don't the possibility is enough to not touch it.

Is a really great game and story. But is a story hard to sell.

I’ve never quite understood all the fuss over the NTR element in this particular game. After all, you can switch it off if it’s not your cup of tea - though doing so might tone down the overall experience. Besides, it’s clearly stated that if you play your cards right, you can sidestep all the NTR content entirely. Personally, I find that leaving it in the mix actually makes the story feel more believable (or at least a shade more realistic), which in turn makes those "what if" scenarios even more interesting

 

[LHDLLB]

I’ve never quite understood all the fuss over the NTR element in this particular game. After all, you can switch it off if it’s not your cup of tea - though doing so might tone down the overall experience. Besides, it’s clearly stated that if you play your cards right, you can sidestep all the NTR content entirely. Personally, I find that leaving it in the mix actually makes the story feel more believable (or at least a shade more realistic), which in turn makes those "what if" scenarios even more interesting

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you, is just that I would say for most of the AVNs players the simple possibility of NTR is enough for them do not play the game. And wait years to have Miru being fucked in front of William is also not appealing to NTR fans. For me if it is opitnal a game can have as much kinkys and the dev wants, as long as it is legal.

 

[yossa999]

I mean...we would have other topics to discuss if Ocean had dropped an update to this game in the past year....

I completely agree with this.

But you're right. This shit goes in loops. You're great at memeing and pointing out looping topics but you're quite bad at providing counter arguments to any flaws that are discussed. As evidenced by your dismissal of the points we're discussing as incest fetishism. That doesn't make you smart. It shows you either don't care about the story making a lick of sense or are too intellectually limited to provide a valid counter argument.

A bait suitable for a schoolchild.

You didn't expect me to rush to prove to you that I'm not as bad at making arguments as you claim, or to discuss my intellectual limitations, did you?

It seems you play too much of Ocean's games. It only works with someone like Zara. I know she's your favorite, but I'm nothing like her (maybe unfortunately ).

Anyway, you are right about one thing: I couldn't care less about discussing incest fetishism.

 

[Winterstale]

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you, is just that I would say for most of the AVNs players the simple possibility of NTR is enough for them do not play the game. And wait years to have Miru being fucked in front of William is also not appealing to NTR fans. For me if it is opitnal a game can have as much kinkys and the dev wants, as long as it is legal.

Honestly, it all boils down to how skillfully you weave this element into the narrative. If NTR is just tossed in for cheap thrills or fetish fuel, it can feel dreadfully stale - at least for my taste. But when it’s done with finesse and, as you mentioned, kept optional, it can elevate the story and give players that cherished sense of having multiple pathways. Not only does it ramp up engagement, but it also gives players that satisfying illusion of choice and control, a win-win, if you ask me

 

[LHDLLB]

Honestly, it all boils down to how skillfully you weave this element into the narrative. If NTR is just tossed in for cheap thrills or fetish fuel, it can feel dreadfully stale - at least for my taste. But when it’s done with finesse and, as you mentioned, kept optional, it can elevate the story and give players that cherished sense of having multiple pathways. Not only does it ramp up engagement, but it also gives players that satisfying illusion of choice and control, a win-win, if you ask me

I also agree. The problem is less how well is executed and more a matter of public. As a kinky is a very divisive one, AVNs is much of a fantasy self fulfilled media, you fuck everyone and has a Harem, if found the love of your life and lives drama free - mostly- or you are the Beta that will be abused and humiliated. While WiaB NTR approach elevates its story telling, it undermines the fantasy aspect of it, something that I don't think a part of the consume is found off, even if you and I appreciates it.

 

[Winterstale]

I also agree. The problem is less how well is executed and more a matter of public. As a kinky is a very divisive one, AVNs is much of a fantasy self fulfilled media, you fuck everyone and has a Harem, if found the love of your life and lives drama free - mostly- or you are the Beta that will be abused and humiliated. While WiaB NTR approach elevates its story telling, it undermines the fantasy aspect of it, something that I don't think a part of the consume is found off, even if you and I appreciates it.

 

[John972]

Yossa? Is that you?

I could not possibly disagree more with your view on this. You say there is more to the story than...lets use the words "family relationships" instead of "incest" here. There isn't. Not yet at least. All we have right now is a premise. And that premise is the MC returning to a place he didn't want to go back to, to see people he didn't want to see again because his not-mother got into an accident and refuses to speak now.

No she wasn't hurt. She isn't dying. She doesn't need blood or a vital organ. She just "lost her voice". How does it make any fucking sense whatsoever for William to put himself through something he REALLY doesn't want to just to see an unrelated lady that isn't speaking anymore!?!?!?

So I ask what else is there besides "family relationship drama"? Leia's pimping and drug dealing? We have no proof it's connected to the planet sized woman's accident. No connection whatsoever to the Krayt as of this moment. So no. I have to pushback on that. There is nothing more to this game at this moment than literal family drama. And THAT gets destroyed the moment they are not family anymore.

So no, fuck your fetish kink reasoning. I would never touch Leia, Dylan or Gigantor. As for Katie i'd bang her no matter what. Related, unrelated who gives a fuck. She's hot. As long as she is a biological woman, I'm in!

EDIT: Thank God for Krytax123 for the much needed injection of common sense in this thread.

Ocean faces a shit sandwich. I don't know how he's gonna handle it, but the likely way forward is to not make William a Zane (is that feasible? Is it too late for such a change because of the bleed through into SG?). Then he has to concoct a cliched AVN backstory about how and why a stranger came to live with the Zane family (rolls eyes). Could he achieve that successfully? Maybe, but his handling of Nika/Nami in Season 1 of SG suggests otherwise. With that one, Ocean still tries to have his cake and eat it too...

I still believe it's theoretically possible to biologically disassociate William from the Zane family (creating a much mocked AVN trope) while keeping a lot of the relationship tension in the game.

So no, fuck your fetish kink reasoning. I would never touch Leia, Dylan or Gigantor.

Nice way to shit all over those fans who are in to Leia and/or Helen (for clarification, I'm not one of them, but I don't begrudge those that are).

PS - I grew up with a biological sister and two female foster children (sisters) that my parents took in. Not that I ever felt that way, but any hanky panky with the sisters was absolutely taboo, even though they were not biological siblings. They were treated like family, although they never truly fitted in during the 6-8 years they stayed. For the record, the sisters left the family by age 12-14 (shortly before my younger sister was born; I was 13 then). The exact details on years and ages is hazy now. This is one of the reasons I believe SG and WIAB don't need incest to work - because I can personally relate to a different "family" dynamic. ... and no, the foster sisters didn't refer to my mum as the "landlady"