VN Ren'Py Wild Cats [v0.1.1] [LopaPhi]

[SerHawkes]

We got a Tattooed Tsundere with a bad girl complex, the Rich Cunt who has ego issues, the Nympho Dolly who will be fun all around, our lovely Ninja who is going to be pulling teeth to resign to the team so to speak, the Normie who really could help us with things, and our Tomboyish Waifu who will be key on defense.

Thats not enough to field a proper team though. We need back ups, ala side pieces, ala the occational cocksleave to tag team in...

 

[Fapparition]

They're not mutually exclusive, MC clearly wants to help where he can

Em, no, he doesn't? How do you even get to that conclusion? The closest thing to it would be his interaction with Saki because he sees himself in her. Everyone else just straight annoys him for making the whole 'team building' so hard.

She, straight up, had nothing indicating that she was willing to listen to MC nor even consider it before MC lost his shit, and there were quite a bit of talk leading up to it.

Highly recommend you to read that scene again. The line when MC interrupted her

 

[Ciaran8023]

Em, no, he doesn't? How do you even get to that conclusion? The closest thing to it would be his interaction with Saki because he sees himself in her. Everyone else just straight annoys him for making the whole 'team building' so hard.

That's the point though? He doesn't need to have that complex with ALL of them from the get-go for that not to be a significant part of how he is as a person.
We also, absolutely, unequivocally know that he'll bend over backwards and shoot for the fucking stars in order to please the other social cases, and as I pointed out in the quote you cut off, the game will pivot more and more to it. It's just a staple of VN's in general, it just feels silly in this one due to the personalities of the character.

Highly recommend you to read that scene again. The line when MC interrupted her

Did you read my post?
"She, straight up, had nothing indicating that she was willing to listen to MC nor even consider it before MC lost his shit". In this very quote I also noted that there were a lot of talking beforehand where she could have told him that she would consider it, there was also ample time where she could have talked about knowing him, there was also ample time where she could have just put forth the bare minimum of an approachable persona towards someone she can tell is stressed out, but none of that happened.

Trust me, I truly dislike the MC, but in that situation she absolutely decided to be the most fucking obtuse and roundabout snobby human being on the planet.

 

[Skylaroo]

If you have and specifically around the type of individuals that this VN has, then no, this is pretty egregious in how absurdly unlikely it is for any of these characters to get into the team.

The reason you think that way is because you're misunderstanding the characters. Hence, my comments about their characters based on what the game has shown rather than what one has imagined.

They're not mutually exclusive, MC clearly wants to help where he can, and it's just going to tip more and more to that side as time goes on.

There is no doubt that MC wants to help where he can, but being helpful doesn't equate to having a hero complex. He's helping to get something in return that would benefit him too.

If you don't know people, sure.
If you know people who are like these individuals, it is extremely unlikely. I've been around a lot of individuals like these in my life, and I think one out of maybe 200 have done things they didn't want to do. Can't convince someone who doesn't give a fuck, especially not if you're some random dude aswell.

Even your own exaggerated experience already showed that 1 out of 200 can be convinced. It's not such a leap to increase that number into 2 (Saki and Fiona whose circumstances are currently unknown).

She, straight up, had nothing indicating that she was willing to listen to MC nor even consider it before MC lost his shit, and there were quite a bit of talk leading up to it.

I don't know why you kept on ignoring facts in the game itself. This happened before MC lost his shit.

Spoiler

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She despises the MC, punched him in the face, either was directly involved in physical assault of the previous coach or had friends/family do the assaulting and she just stood by it. Literally nothing points towards her being interested,

It seems like it's a trend with you where you're very quick to make judgment without trying to understand any context whatsoever. Yes there is violence against the previous coach. What is the context? We don't know. What we know is that Fiona is a leader on the team (at least back in high school when Lexi was playing against Fiona's team) to show that she is the type that shoulder the burden for others. It isn't such a huge leap that the violence against the previous coach might have a reasonable reasoning behind it. Purely hypothetical, but imagine if the coach was making unwanted advances toward one of the players where Fiona took it upon herself to beat him up while the victim didn't want it to be known so she kept it quiet and just took the blame while distancing herself from the team. This would also fit into her behavior of pushing the MC away because she didn't want to get more people involved. Again, just hypothetical scenario, but it isn't that weird at all when we put some context to it.

Sure, more open to it, but seeing someone in a positive light doesn't really matter at all, again given how she is as a person, zero reason to think that she'd all of the sudden get serious about playing for a dude she's only just met outside of VN magic.

Again, you're missing any context. I never said "she'd all of a sudden get serious about playing". I simply said that we don't know what her circumstance is. But as like the trend, you're very happy to make a quick judgment and conclude that such person would never.

You do realize that's like the most common excuse for not wanting to do shit?

It's sad when there's literal "I'll think about it" and your excuse is that she didn't mean it.

I've worked with a lot of youths, I've been that youth, if I gave you the "I'll think about it" response it means to fuck off and stop bothering me.

Honestly, I think you're still that youth.

 

[Hordragg]

They're not mutually exclusive, MC clearly wants to help where he can, and it's just going to tip more and more to that side as time goes on.

Disagree. The way I see it, the only one he 'clearly wants to help' is himself. He's trying to help the girls to make a case for them helping him. He's trying to get them to form a team capable of playing on the collegiate league, all so he gets to keep his scholarship. That's his sole motivation. And while the game already hints at him ending up really caring for the girls and team, he's clearly not there, yet.

Previous coach got beat up by "tough looking dudes" and/or Fiona (depending on involvement) on school grounds of a supposedly extremely prestigious school where you can easily get real fucked up by LEA.
Options of individuals capable of doing so;
A - Organized crime that can skirt the rules (which fits the best given that the dean just let it slide).
B - Local gang that are nuts enough to do something like that.
C - Crackheads.

Now that is one uninspired list… Where's 'big money'? 'Corrupt politician'? Why no 'war-time buddy'? There's several groups or relations beside 'organized crime' that could explain how Fiona's 'rampage' (see dialogue with Mr. Harrison) had no lasting ramifications for her. Apart from gaining a certain reputation, that is. Though judging by the way she reacted to being called a 'bad girl' she probably sees what she's done in quite a different light.

Ah well, hope you have a pleasant weekend.

 

[DevinHesi]

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Heya everybody,

Just giving you a quick update about the game. And I'm happy to all tell you that it's all good news. I'm still trying to aim for 70% completion by the end of September. It's pretty crazy, I know, but it pushes me to work harder knowing I need to hit a deadline (just me being a corporate slave, lol).

I am proud to say that chapter 2 is now officially 50% done with script, images, and animations already coded in Ren'py. Do you guys remember when I said I prefer checking out major scenes rather than percentages? Well, this marks 2 out of 4 completed. Below are the current stats:

• 19k words
• 710 images
• 10 new animations

Still quite a way to go, but we're getting there. As I mentioned, chapter 2 should be the same length as chapter 1.

Lastly, I've opened this post to the public to announce that Russian translation has been added to the game along with a Chinese translation fix. Credits to both Fa1con Eye and Dr.Hu (and Tian for the Spanish), as they've been very kind enough to provide high-quality translations for me. The game should be updated with them in

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.

That is all. I hope everyone enjoyed/is enjoying their weekend. And once again, thank you all for being here. I really, really appreciate it.

If you have any questions, by all means, feel free to shoot me a message.

LopaPhi

 

[Ciaran8023]

Disagree. The way I see it, the only one he 'clearly wants to help' is himself. He's trying to help the girls to make a case for them helping him. He's trying to get them to form a team capable of playing on the collegiate league, all so he gets to keep his scholarship. That's his sole motivation. And while the game already hints at him ending up really caring for the girls and team, he's clearly not there, yet.

Yet it's clearly not the sole reason for the asian chick (forgot her name already) and Lexi, it's pretty clear that he's already revving up the white horse as he's more engaged than just 'coach mentality' in regards to those two.

Now that is one uninspired list… Where's 'big money'? 'Corrupt politician'? Why no 'war-time buddy'? There's several groups or relations beside 'organized crime' that could explain how Fiona's 'rampage' (see dialogue with Mr. Harrison) had no lasting ramifications for her. Apart from gaining a certain reputation, that is. Though judging by the way she reacted to being called a 'bad girl' she probably sees what she's done in quite a different light.

Ah well, hope you have a pleasant weekend.

I mean.. big money, corrupt politician and organized crime are far from mutually exclusive.
War-time buddy wouldn't really explain why she has pocket goons she can just sic on people to beat them to shit. The most logical explanation is a group that no one can afford to go against, if it was "just a war-time buddy" of her fathers, I'd be extremely surprised as to why the rest of the country doesn't immediately start questioning things as this is allegedly one of the most prestigious schools and likely has the eyes of every other institute on them.

I mean keep in mind, this is basically the equivalant of a faculty member getting their kneecaps broken at Harvard. Word would get out extremely fast unless it involves a group that has an iron grip on anything and everything that goes on around there.

-----------------

The reason you think that way is because you're misunderstanding the characters. Hence, my comments about their characters based on what the game has shown rather than what one has imagined.

My comments are based on what the game has shown, which is a group of individuals that either play games and decide to be willfully obtuse (Zoe), truly doesn't care about anything other than having fun (Lexi), doesn't care about their future nor anything else (Saki) and someone who's more than likely involved in organized crime, despises the MC, has punched him in the face and also assaulted the previous coach (Fiona, if that was her name).

There is no doubt that MC wants to help where he can, but being helpful doesn't equate to having a hero complex. He's helping to get something in return that would benefit him too.

In most cases yeah, Saki and Lexi clearly works a different way for him given his reactions and behaviour towards them.

Even your own exaggerated experience already showed that 1 out of 200 can be convinced. It's not such a leap to increase that number into 2 (Saki and Fiona whose circumstances are currently unknown).

Keep in mind that it's taken from a pool of varied individuals, if I were to extrapolate from people who were like Fiona then that number would be a fat zero. People like that do not want to play ball (pun maybe intended) as they vehemently despises doing anything for anyone that asks something of them. Each time you ask, those individuals become twice as unlikely to do what you want them to. Saki is not as extreme but still very similar in how those people react to these things, and they never learn until they're stuck at rock bottom, which she has a long way to go as she apparently hasn't been jailed yet.

I don't know why you kept on ignoring facts in the game itself. This happened before MC lost his shit.

You and the other dude did the exact same thing in that you apparently didn't read the quote. The conversation had a long lead up, at no point did she even hint that she was interested, rather the absolute opposite and immediately shut down any indication there could be that she was interested. She also knew him, yet didn't say anything, and still acted like that.
Now, most likely she was trying to do the whole "oh I'm gonna play hard to get but then give him the 'if it's you I can do it..' spiel" which backfired horrendously, understandably so given that she already was on a shaky basis given that she basically called him a pussy for "quitting after one game".

It seems like it's a trend with you where you're very quick to make judgment without trying to understand any context whatsoever. Yes there is violence against the previous coach. What is the context? We don't know. What we know is that Fiona is a leader on the team (at least back in high school when Lexi was playing against Fiona's team) to show that she is the type that shoulder the burden for others. It isn't such a huge leap that the violence against the previous coach might have a reasonable reasoning behind it. Purely hypothetical, but imagine if the coach was making unwanted advances toward one of the players where Fiona took it upon herself to beat him up while the victim didn't want it to be known so she kept it quiet and just took the blame while distancing herself from the team. This would also fit into her behavior of pushing the MC away because she didn't want to get more people involved. Again, just hypothetical scenario, but it isn't that weird at all when we put some context to it.

Are you listening to yourself? Firstly, there is NO context where it would make sense that she would hire two goons likely from a nearby gang to brutalize someone that couldn't be solved by the dean or LEA.
Secondly, something like that wouldn't work in regards to the dean nor the other members, if there were unwanted advances then the details would come out extremely fast given that it's a school environment and the dean seems like an absolute zero-policy type individual regarding anything that harms his students.
This is also why it seems far more likely that she's involved in something that he can't touch, or that she might have leverage on him in some other way.
Abuse isn't exactly something you can sweep under the rug and you can't really say that the coach tripped when he shows up at the hospital with clear blunt force trauma marks in places he really couldn't have if he would've had an accident, at which point LEA gets involved.

Again, you're missing any context. I never said "she'd all of a sudden get serious about playing". I simply said that we don't know what her circumstance is. But as like the trend, you're very happy to make a quick judgment and conclude that such person would never.

If you're someone who's clearly holding an unresolved grudge regarding your own situation, would you jump at a dude you don't know who shows up and basically goes "okay so tagging is bad, you wanna play volleyball"? These people don't think that anyone is on their side, and you can't convince them otherwise until they themselves get into a situation where they have to drastically rethink their life, which as I pointed out earlier, Saki is far from doing so.

It's sad when there's literal "I'll think about it" and your excuse is that she didn't mean it.

Because I've heard it a million times over the years. Doesn't mean I stopped trying, but it absolutely means "stop bothering me, I'm not interested". Also, let's assume that she isn't like that, do you think that it's logical that someone who decided for her own personal growth to stop playing competitively and actually experience life to somehow reconsider what is likely one of her largest decisions she's ever made just because one dude danced with her and DIDN'T fuck her after?
In neither of those scenarios is it likely that she'd show any sort of real interest.

Honestly, I think you're still that youth.

Damn, I disagree with you and you automatically turn to personal insults? Not that I am surprised, it just says a lot about you as a person.

 

[Hordragg]

Yet it's clearly not the sole reason for the asian chick (forgot her name already) and Lexi, it's pretty clear that he's already revving up the white horse as he's more engaged than just 'coach mentality' in regards to those two.

You're reaching. Just because he wants Lexi to focus less on drunken partying and hopes to keep Saki from doing something stupid doesn't mean he has a 'hero complex'. He needs them to be on the team. Getting freaky with Lexi isn't exactly helping her. Same goes for inappropriately touching Saki and convincing her to give up her insta afterwards. There's people on here that would call that quite the opposite, really.

I mean.. big money, corrupt politician and organized crime are far from mutually exclusive.
War-time buddy wouldn't really explain why she has pocket goons she can just sic on people to beat them to shit. The most logical explanation is a group that no one can afford to go against, if it was "just a war-time buddy" of her fathers, I'd be extremely surprised as to why the rest of the country doesn't immediately start questioning things as this is allegedly one of the most prestigious schools and likely has the eyes of every other institute on them.

I mean keep in mind, this is basically the equivalant of a faculty member getting their kneecaps broken at Harvard. Word would get out extremely fast unless it involves a group that has an iron grip on anything and everything that goes on around there.

Quite an interesting attempt at an argument. But by your reasoning organized crime, local gangs, and crackheads can simply be lumped together, making your list of 'options' even more uninspired than it already is… everything's just organized crime.

Well, how about Fi's parent being war-time buddies with the Dean? I for one think it's a given that the latter covered most of it up. Else it probably would've made national news and people would react accordingly on the MC asking about it. Fi's parent being (ex-)military could explain quite a bit. Though one really doesn't need a particular set of skills to protect ones offspring… Which is as good an assumption on why what happened actually happened as yours is.

I don't agree on your kneecap analogy. The latter caries far more mal-intent than a beating and is often used to send some kind of message, a fact that's not supported by the statements regarding said events.

 

[Ciaran8023]

You're reaching. Just because he wants Lexi to focus less on drunken partying and hopes to keep Saki from doing something stupid doesn't mean he has a 'hero complex'. He needs them to be on the team. Getting freaky with Lexi isn't exactly helping her. Same goes for inappropriately touching Saki and convincing her to give up her insta afterwards. There's people on here that would call that quite the opposite, really.

You do realize that getting freaky with Lexi isn't forced, correct? Why would you assume that this is the route that everyone will take? Moreover I can't recall if the Saki scene is forced, however regardless, why do you seem to assume that a hero complex is something inherently wellmeaning?
Him having a hero complex doesn't exclude those actions, because a hero complex is inherently a delusion where they think themselves as the main character that always 'helps' even though that 'help' can be VERY detrimental to the person in question.

Lexi, for example, wants to live life her way and he will probably do everything under the sun to stop her from doing so, partly due to his own selfish reasons and also partly because he thinks it's "right" and someone with a hero complex only acts on their notion of 'right' and dismisses any other possibility as 'wrong' or uninformed.

Quite an interesting attempt at an argument. But by your reasoning organized crime, local gangs, and crackheads can simply be lumped together, making your list of 'options' even more uninspired than it already is… everything's just organized crime.

No? A bundle of crackheads isn't organized crime, organized crime is a group of individuals centered in an enterprise to make money, with obviously illegal means. Drug cartel would probably also fall under that but it seems less likely that Fiona is buddy-buddy with a cartel rather than something like the Bratva or something similar, as they would atleast care enough about potential education for someone within their ranks/related to one of their ranks as they care more about appearances than any of the other less likely parties.

Well, how about Fi's parent being war-time buddies with the Dean? I for one think it's a given that the latter covered most of it up. Else it probably would've made national news and people would react accordingly on the MC asking about it. Fi's parent being (ex-)military could explain quite a bit. Though one really doesn't need a particular set of skills to protect ones offspring… Which is as good an assumption on why what happened actually happened as yours is.

Again, this is extremely unlikely. There were people at the incident who were students who would spread the rumour exceedingly fast, the rumour exists already but seemingly hasn't made it outside of the premise and ex-military can't really blanket something like this to that degree, because at that level of coverage you need fear rather than anything else.
Fear is generally in the ballpark of individuals you know can either hurt or kill you with little reasoning, something that doesn't really tie in with ex-military or LEA.
Moreover, I severely doubt the dean would have let a group of ex-mils onto his grounds to assault a faculty member. If we're going by the assumption that we are dealing with ex-mils, the dean isn't stupid enough to let that happen on school grounds. If (hypothetically) this is the scenario, it's FAR more likely that the dean would have dismissed the faculty member and then that faculty member would've been taken care of outside of the grounds as to not incriminate anyone related to the school or get the school into trouble.
The fact that this didn't happen, and the fact that the assault happened on grounds points more towards a group of individuals that either know that they can't be touched, or a group that doesn't give a shit about it. Couple this with the dean letting it slide, the prior seems more likely than the latter, which again points more towards large scale organized crime family.

I don't agree on your kneecap analogy. The latter caries far more mal-intent than a beating and is often used to send some kind of message, a fact that's not supported by the statements regarding said events.

The kneecap specifically was hyperbole to point out just how absurd this situation is within the context of what we know the school is and how the dean portrays himself as.
I will argue however that severely beating someone on school grounds IS filled with malicious intent, moreso than just a warning. A warning would be a bunch of guys waiting at the coach's car after hours, with a pair of baseball bats and a message. Them just going instantly to assault is more along the lines of "get the fuck out or we're going to murder you" type of escalation.

Which, again, doesn't exactly point towards any former LEA or anyone sane for that matter.

 

[Ka1tzer]

One thing I would absolutely want is to have a say (or even straight up define) who will have the captain role.

Because that's gonna be Eve, the only one who hasn't quit and the one who seems to be the most willing to be "Switzerland" and get everyone to play together. Or maybe Desiree when she eventually joins, as she'd be great too (might even be the absolute best for the role).

If it turns out that the girl who punches us in the face gets the captain role again, I'll be very pissed.

Even if we don't know her circumstances about why she acts like she does, someone that can just blow up and do that to another person is simply not fit to be captain.

When the MC himself with all his issues is about to blow up, if we let him do it what happens? "Game Over".

 

[Hordragg]

You do realize that getting freaky with Lexi isn't forced, correct? Why would you assume that this is the route that everyone will take? Moreover I can't recall if the Saki scene is forced, however regardless, why do you seem to assume that a hero complex is something inherently wellmeaning?
Him having a hero complex doesn't exclude those actions, because a hero complex is inherently a delusion where they think themselves as the main character that always 'helps' even though that 'help' can be VERY detrimental to the person in question.

Lexi, for example, wants to live life her way and he will probably do everything under the sun to stop her from doing so, partly due to his own selfish reasons and also partly because he thinks it's "right" and someone with a hero complex only acts on their notion of 'right' and dismisses any other possibility as 'wrong' or uninformed.

What you're describing is not the psychological phenomenon known as hero syndrome (aka hero complex). The latter has a person striving for recognition – to be seen as a saviour. Our hero cares precious little about laudation, aiming only to honour his deal with the dean. There's simply no basis for attributing a hero complex to him. As has been pointed out several times already.

The scene with Lexi I mentioned out of completeness sake. It's the only other one there is with her, after all. The one with Saki isn't based on choice, by the way.

No? A bundle of crackheads isn't organized crime, […]

My point exactly. Thank you for acknowledging it.

Again, this is extremely unlikely. There were people at the incident who were students who would spread the rumour exceedingly fast, the rumour exists already but seemingly hasn't made it outside of the premise and ex-military can't really blanket something like this to that degree, because at that level of coverage you need fear rather than anything else.
Fear is generally in the ballpark of individuals you know can either hurt or kill you with little reasoning, something that doesn't really tie in with ex-military or LEA.
Moreover, I severely doubt the dean would have let a group of ex-mils onto his grounds to assault a faculty member. If we're going by the assumption that we are dealing with ex-mils, the dean isn't stupid enough to let that happen on school grounds. If (hypothetically) this is the scenario, it's FAR more likely that the dean would have dismissed the faculty member and then that faculty member would've been taken care of outside of the grounds as to not incriminate anyone related to the school or get the school into trouble.
The fact that this didn't happen, and the fact that the assault happened on grounds points more towards a group of individuals that either know that they can't be touched, or a group that doesn't give a shit about it. Couple this with the dean letting it slide, the prior seems more likely than the latter, which again points more towards large scale organized crime family.

Well, what it actually takes is for people to look the other way. And fear is but one of several means to achieve that. There's also money, women, men [

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], and most importantly: indifference. As for the dean: there's ample reason – see the dialogue with Mr. Harrison, again – to believe that he only knew after the fact, however he may be involved with Fiona. That being said, I do see your point and am quite interested to learn about the actual events in-game somewhere down the line.

The kneecap specifically was hyperbole to point out just how absurd this situation is within the context of what we know the school is and how the dean portrays himself as.
I will argue however that severely beating someone on school grounds IS filled with malicious intent, moreso than just a warning. […]

Fascinating. I never said that a beating carried no malicious intent. Quite the contrary, actually, as I specifically said that busting someone's kneecap carried 'far more'. I also didn't make the latter out to be used as a mere warning… *sigh*

It does seem like I'm wasting everybody's time here as you're set on your opinion (which is perfectly fine) while not being keen on acknowledging my points in full (which really is not). Well, take care!

 

[Ciaran8023]

What you're describing is not the psychological phenomenon known as hero syndrome (aka hero complex). The latter has a person striving for recognition – to be seen as a saviour. Our hero cares precious little about laudation, aiming only to honour his deal with the dean. There's simply no basis for attributing a hero complex to him. As has been pointed out several times already.

The scene with Lexi I mentioned out of completeness sake. It's the only other one there is with her, after all. The one with Saki isn't based on choice, by the way.

A hero complex/syndrome absolutely has roots in delusion, saying anything else would be ironically very delusional.
You also say that he doesn't care at all about praise, with a history in competitive sports at the highest level and being one of the best in the country.
If you're an individual that has no interest in attention or praise, it's very unlikely that you would involve yourself in competitive sports at the highest level unless our MC is one of the very few athletes out there that only competes for the sake of competing, though he very much does not come off as such.

My point exactly. Thank you for acknowledging it.

So you.. brought it up for no apparent reason? Alright then. Not sure what that achieved, but you go girl.

Well, what it actually takes is for people to look the other way. And fear is but one of several means to achieve that. There's also money, women, men [

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], and most importantly: indifference. As for the dean: there's ample reason – see the dialogue with Mr. Harrison, again – to believe that he only knew after the fact, however he may be involved with Fiona. That being said, I do see your point and am quite interested to learn about the actual events in-game somewhere down the line.

Let's think about what you're saying rationally for a second. You note fear or any sort of involvement with criminal elements is unlikely, and you're proposing that ex-military came into a prestigious school to brutalize a staff member and then paid off EVERY student in the school to keep quiet? (I'm choosing the money option here because I definitely do not think that they paid off the students with strippers and/or prostitutes.)
And the dean just decided to let it slide?
Even you have to admit that it's far further of a reach than organized crime.

Fascinating. I never said that a beating carried no malicious intent. Quite the contrary, actually, as I specifically said that busting someone's kneecap carried 'far more'.

That's the thing though, busting someones kneecaps can either result in a severe sprain/dislocation or damage to ACL/MCL/PCL/LCL/meniskus. Unless it's done with a sledgehammer, it's generally surgery and some rest. Getting a group of individuals to beat someone to hell and back more often ends with far worse damage instead of damage to a localized and non-life threatening area.
It's disingenuous to say that kneecapping someone is more malicious than simply go to town on his head or torso with a bat.

It does seem like I'm wasting everybody's time here as you're set on your opinion (which is perfectly fine) while not being keen on acknowledging my points in full (which really is not). Well, take care!

I have no qualms acknowledging viewpoints, what I am trying to confer to you is that, specifically regarding Fiona since that seems to be the most contentious point besides MC, organized crime is the one thing that fits the best given what we know of the situation, and what we know of the dean and institution as a whole. Every other variable that could potentially be at play either requires some further than normal leaps in logic or simply misportraying the dean and the institution. You seem vehemently against this notion, extremely so, and I'm honestly curious as to why organized crime is seemingly the least likely to you.
It wouldn't be the first game to have characters with ties to organized crime families, in fact there are quite a lot of them, and a lot of them share personality traits/behavioural patterns with Fiona aswell.

And sure, ciao.

 

[Skylaroo]

Damn, I disagree with you and you automatically turn to personal insults? Not that I am surprised, it just says a lot about you as a person.

I'll just respond to this part.

First of all, you started with the passive aggressive "if you don't know people, sure" comment which you repeated twice early on. So don't pretend like you didn't comment about the person rather than the topic.

Secondly, I made that comment about you still being that youth because you're behaving exactly the same as the way as how you define those youths yourself. They never change if they don't want to change. That's the same as you. You have no interest in changing your opinion despite being provided with actual in-game facts to show that some characters have clear reasons to change (Desiree, Zoe, Lexi) and some currently have unknown circumstances (Fiona and Saki) because you prefer to believe your own interpretation that they will never change which is based on your own personal experience where 199 out 200 youth you worked with had no reason to change (and therefore did not change). You're extremely confident to immediately consider the characters as 5 of the 199. I'm showing you that 3 of them are the 1 of 200, and 2 of them are currently unknown.

 

[Fapparition]

You have no interest in changing your opinion despite being provided with actual in-game facts

you prefer to believe your own interpretation

I'm surprised that you guys still trying to convince him despite knowing that. As soon as I noticed that he is fixated on his own opinion and has zero intention to rethink it, only to have the last word I dropped it.

 

[Ciaran8023]

I'll just respond to this part.

First of all, you started with the passive aggressive "if you don't know people, sure" comment which you repeated twice early on. You continued on to the others with comment such as "you go girl". So don't pretend like you didn't comment about the person rather than the topic.

Except it wasn't in any way passive aggressive. If you read it as such, then that's out of my control and solely lies with you.
Moreover, the "you go girl" wasn't sarcastic, there was literally nothing add to that as it was an entirely superfluous addition on his/her/their part.

Secondly, I made that comment about you still being that youth because you're behaving exactly the same as the way as how you define those youths yourself. They never change if they don't want to change. That's the same as you. You have no interest in changing your opinion despite being provided with actual in-game facts to show that some characters have clear reasons to change (Desiree, Zoe, Lexi) and some currently have unknown circumstances (Fiona and Saki) because you prefer to believe your own interpretation that they will never change which is based on your own personal experience where 199 out 200 youth you worked had no reason to change (and therefore did not change). You're extremely confident to immediately consider the characters as 5 of the 199. I'm showing you that 3 of them are the 1 of 200, and 2 of them are currently unknown.

You seem to entirely misunderstand everything I have posted, which given your earlier statement regarding you interpreting my words as passive aggressive, doesn't surprise me at this point.

My entire argument from the very start ties in with suspension of disbelief, because people like this in real life are nigh-impervious to change or even a willingness to change. Does that mean that the characters will be like that? Of course not, because it's a VN and everything will go MC's way one way or another, that's just how storytelling works in fiction that isn't based on tragedy or other darker themes.
Does it however mean that you'd have a difficult time suspending said belief if you have real life experience with individuals like this? Yes absolutely, and I'm pointing out what these characters are like when they wouldn't be shackled by VN narrative.

Also, none of them have actual clear reasons to change. I wouldn't say that Desiree needs to change (as we seem to be talking personality-wise) as she's probably the most well-rounded of them all besides Eve. Maybe a bit naive, but nothing detrimental to herself or anyone else.

Lexi absolutely doesn't need to change, she sure as hell doesn't 'need' to play volleyball and she likely has the least reason to do so given that she willingly changed herself to someone she wanted to be and the life she wanted to lead. It is more unlikely that she does change from what little MC has meddled. When one makes a decision regarding their entire life, it's pretty unlikely that they go back on that decision and her moving away from competitive play was central within that decision she made.

Zoe absolutely doesn't seem to want to change (again, we're apparently talking about personality here given your post), she made the mistake of being willfully obtuse when she first met him (as again, seems unlikely that she had no idea about the history of her literal idol when she's both got connections and money) and made a pretty damn egregious faux pas towards the MC while also being very dismissive about the potential of playing in that volleyball team with the other girls. And yes, since I know you'll bring it up, she did try to do the whole "oh my gosh I'll play hard to get but then I'll just tell him 'but if it's you I'll do it'" that MC missed because he, understandably after her remark about how he quit and her attitude, blew up on her.
When they reconvened she's STILL holding on to the same dismissive and almost haughty attitude when he's trying to make amends. Again, her personality is VERY unlikely to change, of course due to narrative reasons she'll somehow swap over from a much more successful volleyball team to the school team, because reasons/VN/MC is her hero/she has an epiphany/MC saves her dog/her father asks her/insert random reason here that will likely be a bit underwhelming given her personality.

You know that they have "reason" to change because we all know that they will change, because that's how the game will work. It isn't like in other VN's where you have certain LI's with no ties to the MC, where here you have a literal banner with all the members and the game revolves around the MC and the team, so we already know that they're all going to "change" and bend to the MC and 'play ball' for lack of a better term. Again however, this doesn't mean that this works anywhere outside of purely within fictional narrative, besides extremely rare cases.

EDIT- Also, keep in mind that my original post is purely me discussing my issues suspending my disbelief given the characters, you're somehow trying to convince that my opinions from real world experience should have mirrored a crafted fictional narrative, which is why I get increasingly confused when you keep posting.

 

[Hordragg]

[…] there was literally nothing add to that as it was an entirely superfluous addition on his/her/their part.

Not quite. You hand-waived away my additions to your list of so-called 'options' by saying that 'big money', 'corrupt politician', and 'organized crime' were far from mutually exclusive. My applying the very same reasoning to your initial list is what lead us to said point. I guess we do agree on the 'superfluous' bit, but very much disagree on what it applies to.

 

[Ciaran8023]

Not quite. You hand-waived away my additions to your list of so-called 'options' by saying that 'big money', 'corrupt politician', and 'organized crime' were far from mutually exclusive. My applying the very same reasoning to your initial list is what lead us to said point. I guess we do agree on the 'superfluous' bit, but very much disagree on what it applies to.

Because they are far from mutually exclusive. Corrupt politicians and organized crime revolve around large amounts of funds being shifted, big money is quite literally the reason as to why they exist. Historically, corrupt politicians worked very intimately with organized crime and both parties could very well be referred to as big money as they tend to have a lot of financial influence.
Nothing of what I said there was hand-waving your response, but rather noting that, again, they very much aren't mutually exclusive.

Given the information we do know, it points more towards an organized crime family, but there could very well be a corrupt politician working with them, but it doesn't really make the crime family LESS of an option or less likely. Corrupt politicians wouldn't really meddle in private business of a crime family (given that we're working off of the assumption that she's like a daughter of someone high up given how easily she got some goons on her side), they generally just want as much money with as little involvement as possible.
It's possible that a corrupt politician would try to hush the dean, but that again seems more likely to fall into the jurisdiction and discretion of said criminal organization as it would be slightly detrimental to a politician if word comes out that he tried to hush a prestigious school regarding a physical assault case.

Again, this is just what seems the most logical given the case. Of course, VN permitting, it could be literally anything because the author can make any decision he wants.

 

[Skylaroo]

My entire argument from the very start ties in with suspension of disbelief, because people like this in real life are nigh-impervious to change or even a willingness to change.

I've already addressed this before when I said "The reason you think that way is because you're misunderstanding the characters. Hence, my comments about their characters based on what the game has shown rather than what one has imagined." in the previous post.

You kept on associating the 5 girls to be the same as the 199 youth that didn't change. I kept on saying that 3 of them are the 1 that changed, and the other 2 are currently unknown. So let's delve deeper again.

Also, none of them have actual clear reasons to change. I wouldn't say that Desiree needs to change (as we seem to be talking personality-wise) as she's probably the most well-rounded of them all besides Eve. Maybe a bit naive, but nothing detrimental to herself or anyone else.

From the start, you already confused two very different things. Having reason to change doesn't mean they need to change. Reason to change is simply reason to change from one situation to the other. In this case, the girls changing from not playing to playing for the college volleyball team. With Desiree, it's very easy because she sucked at basketball and she likes to play volleyball more than basketball. That's a reason to change.

Lexi absolutely doesn't need to change, she sure as hell doesn't 'need' to play volleyball and she likely has the least reason to do so given that she willingly changed herself to someone she wanted to be and the life she wanted to lead. It is more unlikely that she does change from what little MC has meddled. When one makes a decision regarding their entire life, it's pretty unlikely that they go back on that decision and her moving away from competitive play was central within that decision she made.

Again, I never said that Lexi needs to change. You're ignoring the fact that her decision is based on simply wanting to have fun in college and that she has openly said that she'd consider joining the volleyball team if playing volleyball is more fun than drinking and partying. That's a reason to change.

Zoe absolutely doesn't seem to want to change (again, we're apparently talking about personality here given your post), she made the mistake of being willfully obtuse when she first met him (as again, seems unlikely that she had no idea about the history of her literal idol when she's both got connections and money) and made a pretty damn egregious faux pas towards the MC while also being very dismissive about the potential of playing in that volleyball team with the other girls. And yes, since I know you'll bring it up, she did try to do the whole "oh my gosh I'll play hard to get but then I'll just tell him 'but if it's you I'll do it'" that MC missed because he, understandably after her remark about how he quit and her attitude, blew up on her.
When they reconvened she's STILL holding on to the same dismissive and almost haughty attitude when he's trying to make amends. Again, her personality is VERY unlikely to change, of course due to narrative reasons she'll somehow swap over from a much more successful volleyball team to the school team, because reasons/VN/MC is her hero/she has an epiphany/MC saves her dog/her father asks her/insert random reason here that will likely be a bit underwhelming given her personality.

Zoe is another straight forward one because she already gave a reason as to why she didn't want to join the team (doesn't want to play with people who didn't take the game seriously). We know that she still plays volleyball, just elsewhere. So it's clear that if the team start taking the game seriously, then she's open to joining the team especially when she was already willing to make an exception for MC to begin with. Of course they'd need to repair their relationship first before they get there, but that's a reason to change.

You know that they have "reason" to change because we all know that they will change, because that's how the game will work.

No. The reasons are explicitly mentioned in the game. Yes they will change, but they will change because of the reasoning that are already in the game as I mentioned above. Each of the three already have reasons to change.

Also, keep in mind that my original post is purely me discussing my issues suspending my disbelief given the characters, you're somehow trying to convince that my opinions from real world experience should have mirrored a crafted fictional narrative, which is why I get increasingly confused when you keep posting.

I never said that your opinions from real world experience should have mirrored a crafted fictional narrative. I said your exaggerated level of suspension of disbelief is because you completely misunderstand the fictional characters which then lead you into comparing them to the wrong group of youth in your IRL experience.

Basically this:
You: Needs tons of suspension of disbelief because these girls are like the 199 youths that didn't change.
Me: Needs normal amount of suspension of disbelief because these girls are like the 1 youth that did change.

Your IRL experience is 100% valid. Your interpretation of the fictional characters is misguided.

 

[Ciaran8023]

I've already addressed this before when I said "The reason you think that way is because you're misunderstanding the characters. Hence, my comments about their characters based on what the game has shown rather than what one has imagined." in the previous post.

At no point did I misunderstand the characters, you're viewing the characters from the lens of them belonging on the team and should be there, I am viewing the characters as they are presented. Those are entirely different things.

You kept on associating the 5 girls to be the same as the 199 youth that didn't change. I kept on saying that 3 of them are the 1 that changed, and the other 2 are currently unknown. So let's delve deeper again.


From the start, you already confused two very different things. Having reason to change doesn't mean they need to change. Reason to change is simply reason to change from one situation to the other. In this case, the girls changing from not playing to playing for the college volleyball team. With Desiree, it's very easy because she sucked at basketball and she likes to play volleyball more than basketball. That's a reason to change.

You specifically mentioned them changing, the only thing about a person that can change given the context of what we've been discussing, is their personality. Someone deciding whether or not to play volleyball isn't a character changing, that's literally just a decision being made.
Moreover, Desiree isn't interested in joining the volleyball team as she's outlined, so bringing her up is just nonsensical in the context of the argument.

Also again, this is judging their characters as presented right now, not basing off of information you know will be true in the future (that Desiree will join, because duh).

Again, I never said that Lexi needs to change. You're ignoring the fact that her decision is based on simply wanting to have fun in college and that she has openly said that she'd consider joining the volleyball team if playing volleyball is more fun than drinking and partying. That's a reason to change.

You straight up talk about change and bring up Lexi. If you didn't intend to say that Lexi needs to change, don't bring her up in that context? It's that simple.
She also decided her new path of life for herself, because she wanted it, because she wanted to live a life that she enjoyed. It's pretty absurd of you to downplay that as "oh she just wants to have fun", there's more to that decision than just that.
Also, saying "convince me that volleyball is more fun that drinking and partying" isn't a reason to change, that's a challenge and also something that someone would say to get someone else off their back.
If someone has decided, for their own wellbeing and life, that they wanted something else than competitive sports, trying to "convince her that it's more fun than partying" is downright impossible. Given what she's shown so far, it can more than likely be her just toying with the MC, given that she clearly had zero interest in coming to practice.

Again, since I will have to reiterate this at every point knowing you, this is judged on her character as presented right now.

Zoe is another straight forward one because she already gave a reason as to why she didn't want to join the team (doesn't want to play with people who didn't take the game seriously). We know that she still plays volleyball, just elsewhere. So it's clear that if the team start taking the game seriously, then she's open to joining the team especially when she was already willing to make an exception for MC to begin with. Of course they'd need to repair their relationship first before they get there, but that's a reason to change.

She didn't just "not want to play with people who didn't take the game seriously", she straight up does not want to play with either Fiona or Lexi. Or are you assuming that she's calling Lexi a slut just because she doesn't take volleyball seriously?
Again, none of this is a reason to change, this is again a challenge which is also just arbitrarily made more difficult than it should ever need to be given her refusal to interact with any of the problematic members of the current lineup.

You, genuinely, do not understand what a "reason to change" is because you seemingly don't understand the concept of 'change' in terms of intrapersonal characteristics. Zoe, as a person, will not "change". She'll end up joining the team because it's a VN, and she'll have nothing but clashes with both Lexi and Fiona because it's a VN. We both know this, it still doesn't have anything to do with who she is now and how she acts and she won't 'change' and become a different person just because MC wants her to mellow out and join the team.

No. The reasons are explicitly mentioned in the game. Yes they will change, but they will change because of the reasoning that are already in the game as I mentioned above. Each of the three already have reasons to change.

Again, they do not. They're changing because of narrative structure, individuals like those with a mindset as strong as them do not "change".
Let's take Zoe for example in a hypothetical situation. Two updates pass and they're now atleast coming to practice. Zoe has clear issues with both Fiona and Lexi and will not get along with them at all. Fiona will never apologize because she wears her pride on her sleeve, Lexi will feel that she has literally nothing to apologize for as she's only enjoying life, do you think that a personality like Zoe will just go "oh, I'm sorry for disliking you" when she acted extremely obtuse, demeaning and dismissive towards MC, who's also her apparent idol.
Do you truly think someone like that would apologize and try to get along? Do you think Fiona would?
Again, all of this is in context of what we've seen of the characters thus far.

I never said that your opinions from real world experience should have mirrored a crafted fictional narrative. I said your exaggerated level of suspension of disbelief is because you completely misunderstand the fictional characters which then lead you into comparing them to the wrong group of youth in your IRL experience.

Basically this:
You: Needs tons of suspension of disbelief because these girls are like the 199 youths that didn't change.
Me: Needs normal amount of suspension of disbelief because these girls are like the 1 youth that did change.

Your IRL experience is 100% valid. Your interpretation of the fictional characters is misguided.

My guy, your entire argument is generally hinged on future knowledge, you're cutting the characters an egregious amount of slack because you know, as a player, that they'll all get along and it will just be merry meadows and happy sunshine later on.
When your initial reaction to Fiona was on the level of "maybe she's just misunderstood, there's no indication that anything happened to the coach" (and no I am not putting words in your mouth, that is simply how you framed it with how unlikely you thought the whole assault thing being foul play), it's hard to actually have a genuine conversation with you as every turn feels like you're arguing in bad faith out of, again, knowledge that they're the LI's and it's a game.

Once again, I'm judging them as they are portrayed right now as people, not as LI's and not on future hunches or deductions, you aren't. I mean fuck, none of them are even LI's at this point, MC is barely above 'stranger' for all of them besides Eve arguably.

 

[Skylaroo]

When your initial reaction to Fiona was on the level of "maybe she's just misunderstood, there's no indication that anything happened to the coach" (and no I am not putting words in your mouth, that is simply how you framed it with how unlikely you thought the whole assault thing being foul play), it's hard to actually have a genuine conversation with you as every turn feels like you're arguing in bad faith out of, again, knowledge that they're the LI's and it's a game.

Sometimes I wonder whether you understand what you read. I have repeatedly said we don't know the current circumstances for Fiona. That there is no context to her story so far. I provided a hypothetical scenario that could happen. I did not say that it's what I think happened. I used it as an example to drive the point that there is no context to her story to make any judgment because the context matters. On the other hand, you're very happy to jump into quick judgment without taking context into consideration.

"Maybe she's just misunderstood" is a valid point because we are provided with discrepancies between the negative story about her (violent) and the positive story (caring about teammates, never skipping class). Then of course there is an outright dialogue from Lexi saying that Fiona is a different person once you get to know her.

If you're talking about arguing in bad faith, you seem to be the one as you openly stated that you are ignoring that when you said the below. You chose to believe one but not the other.

And no I'm not taking into account what Lexi says because Fiona has just proven otherwise.

This is the trend that is happening throughout this discussion where you consistently ignore in-game facts and preferring your own misguided interpretation instead. You are no longer doing suspension of disbelief, you are just outright creating your own fantasy where you pick and choose what you want.

Once again, I'm judging them as they are portrayed right now as people,

I'm not surprised because this explains why you completely misunderstand the characters. This is why "Don't just a book by its cover" is a saying.